Author Topic: O/T In or out  (Read 400483 times)

Pete Brooksbank

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #450 on: October 13, 2016, 08:59:59 PM »
But would anyone have supported a JR if the answer had been the other way?

This is exactly why I find discussing the entire subject now pointless. 


It's pointless but I'm still doing it.

This whole Brexit debate reminds me of a clip I saw earlier of a Donald Trump supporter being interviewed by CNN:

Trump Fan: Obama, well, he never showed his birth certificate. He should show his birth certificate.
CNN: He did.
Trump Fan: Nooo.... [SMILES AND SHAKES HEAD]

Hear a fact.

Decide you don't like fact.

Deny fact.

It's happening more and more. No matter how many times Brexiters are told nobody (well, some are, but they can't be taken seriously) is seeking to overturn the EU vote, they just carry on claiming the demands for a vote on the terms of the exit are demands to overturn the vote. You can't reason with such wilful and deliberate delusion, and yet I try... and try...

Leave won. Well done. We are leaving Europe. Everyone accepts it.

What we will not accept are the specific terms of that exit being determined without proper Parliamentary scrutiny. That's only right, and only fair, because the stakes are simply too high. And anyone saying, "who cares, let's leave now" - just please go away and educate yourself about the real world, because you're making things ten times worse.

Dipdodah

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #451 on: October 14, 2016, 09:36:41 AM »
But would anyone have supported a JR if the answer had been the other way?

This is exactly why I find discussing the entire subject now pointless. 


It's pointless but I'm still doing it.

This whole Brexit debate reminds me of a clip I saw earlier of a Donald Trump supporter being interviewed by CNN:

Trump Fan: Obama, well, he never showed his birth certificate. He should show his birth certificate.
CNN: He did.
Trump Fan: Nooo.... [SMILES AND SHAKES HEAD]

Hear a fact.

Decide you don't like fact.

Deny fact.

It's happening more and more. No matter how many times Brexiters are told nobody (well, some are, but they can't be taken seriously) is seeking to overturn the EU vote, they just carry on claiming the demands for a vote on the terms of the exit are demands to overturn the vote. You can't reason with such wilful and deliberate delusion, and yet I try... and try...

Leave won. Well done. We are leaving Europe. Everyone accepts it.

What we will not accept are the specific terms of that exit being determined without proper Parliamentary scrutiny. That's only right, and only fair, because the stakes are simply too high. And anyone saying, "who cares, let's leave now" - just please go away and educate yourself about the real world, because you're making things ten times worse.

I find myself agreeing with you  :o to a certain extent.

People voted to leave, fact. In a democracy the will of the people must be followed,fact.

The people put into power by the masses, have a duty to do what is best for the country and it's people.

That is to get the very best possible deal for the UK.  I know that certain dealings have to be done in private, but MP's have a right and duty to discuss such an important issue in parliament.
The older I get, the earlier it gets late

Pete Brooksbank

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #452 on: October 14, 2016, 12:07:46 PM »
Totally agree.

I didn't want to leave the EU, but we are leaving. Now it's up to the politicians to get us the best deal.

Now hurry up and let's get that stadium built before it costs £10 a brick.

green hats mate

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #453 on: October 14, 2016, 12:25:02 PM »
I voted brexit in the believe Geo Osbourne must get something right ,
When are we going to get an interest rate rise Geo?

Adam

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #454 on: October 14, 2016, 12:28:11 PM »
I voted brexit in the believe Geo Osbourne must get something right ,
When are we going to get an interest rate rise Geo?

I'd guestimate that Brexit has put back an interest rate rise quite a few years... I suppose we could get back to 0.5 in late 2017/2018, if things go spectacularly well.

green hats mate

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #455 on: October 14, 2016, 12:58:37 PM »
I voted brexit in the believe Geo Osbourne must get something right ,
When are we going to get an interest rate rise Geo?

I'd guestimate that Brexit has put back an interest rate rise quite a few years... I suppose we could get back to 0.5 in late 2017/2018, if things go spectacularly well.

So Geo got it all wrong again !!!!   he claimed the interest rate would rise because brexit would be a spectacular  disaster.

Mickey Nuttells Hair

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #456 on: October 14, 2016, 01:40:49 PM »
he claimed the interest rate would rise because brexit would be a spectacular  disaster.

'Brexit' hasn't started yet.

And given how badly things have gone since the vote to leave do you really think it won't be worse when it actually starts?  Especially if its a shoot from the hip, reactionary, daily mail pleasing mess its looking to be right now.

Fairfax

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #457 on: October 14, 2016, 04:07:20 PM »
An interesting point on JR. Parliament makes the laws; the legislature is there to make sure that the law is applied, interpreting where necessary. The JR is asked to rule on whether there should be a commons vote on enacting article 50. If JR says no vote, then we go ahead, but if it insists on a vote, parliament is entitled to ignore the legislature, by amending the act which JR implies would be contravened, or by passing an entirely new act which overrules the JR decision. The snag is that to pass or amend an act there needs to be a vote in parliament. And round we will go again! To quote Sir Thomas More, I trust that I make myself obscure.

Regarding the debate on whether the government should tell parliament what its exit strategy is, of course you don't show your cards to the opposition (either in parliament of the EU). However, I would have thought that the exit strategy is clear...

    1) Invoke article 50 in full, breaking all ties and agreements which form part of our membership of the EU. (That's what exit means, although it would appear that many wish not to understand this.)

    2) Speedily enact through parliament those things which are under our control so that the status quo continues where we want it to.

    3) Negotiate with the EU about anything that we have lost by leaving so that we achieve the best deals we can. This point can start at any stage and doesn't have to wait for the earlier items. We will win some and lose some, but that's what those of us who voted for exit anticipated (or should have anticipated) anyway. At this point we are out with the best deals that are available.

    4) Negotiate new trade deals with the rest of the World, including the EU as we see fit. At this point the EU will have come to realise that being bloody minded is not suiting their interests and will probably be approaching us to replace the deals that they have denied us, or looking for new deals.

    From this point onwards it is a brave new World and we need to stay one step ahead as we have done throughout history. My only doubt is whether we have the negotiators of the calibre required to achieve this momentous undertaking. History will judge their success or failure.

Per ardua ad astra.

green hats mate

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #458 on: October 14, 2016, 04:26:50 PM »
he claimed the interest rate would rise because brexit would be a spectacular  disaster.

'Brexit' hasn't started yet.

And given how badly things have gone since the vote to leave do you really think it won't be worse when it actually starts?  Especially if its a shoot from the hip, reactionary, daily mail pleasing mess its looking to be right now.
So when will interest rates rise ?  many are getting inpatient,  the promise of higher rates was appealing to many .
Osbourne predict a dramatic change would happen rapidly if an out vote was the outcome .
« Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 04:40:54 PM by green hats mate »

Mickey Nuttells Hair

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #459 on: October 14, 2016, 08:53:11 PM »
You are aware Osbourne is not Chancellor still yeah?

His predictions for what happens on an out vote were in line with the statement that the PM would be invoking A50 the next day, which thankfully even he wasn't stupid enough to do.

So forget any prediction or assumption from either of those two on an out vote, they were designed to shock people into remaining - it didn't work obviously BUT its yet to be proven right or wrong UNTIL the A50 part is started.

Now we have a situation nobody predicted or wanted, vote leave but A50 not started straight away, a new PM/Chancellor/cabinet - with the PM being a Remainer!?!?  So forget what anyone predicted or said would happen, we are in no mans land. 

Ed Kandi

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #460 on: October 14, 2016, 09:28:32 PM »
I predicted that if vote leave prevailed in the referendum then it would be voted down in parliament.
If they go ahead with the debate, which seems inevitable and constitutionally correct, then the vote will be on the Single Market, in or out, and I can only see that going one way.
So we will have 'left' the EU but still be in the Single Market.
'Out' and In at the same time, but mostly In as that is what big business and the establishment have decreed should happen.
If your vote could make a difference they would never have given it to you in the first place   

I am slightly cynical having experienced the Judiciary being paid off by multi £billion businesses, something I thought could never happen  :dan

Ed Kandi

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #461 on: October 14, 2016, 09:58:04 PM »
I predicted that if vote leave prevailed in the referendum then it would be voted down in parliament.
If they go ahead with the debate, which seems inevitable and constitutionally correct, then the vote will be on the Single Market, in or out, and I can only see that going one way.
So we will have 'left' the EU but still be in the Single Market.
'Out' and In at the same time, but mostly In as that is what big business and the establishment have decreed should happen.
If your vote could make a difference they would never have given it to you in the first place   
 :dan


Adam

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #462 on: October 14, 2016, 10:44:50 PM »
I predicted that if vote leave prevailed in the referendum then it would be voted down in parliament.
If they go ahead with the debate, which seems inevitable and constitutionally correct, then the vote will be on the Single Market, in or out, and I can only see that going one way.
So we will have 'left' the EU but still be in the Single Market.
'Out' and In at the same time, but mostly In as that is what big business and the establishment have decreed should happen.
If your vote could make a difference they would never have given it to you in the first place   

I am slightly cynical having experienced the Judiciary being paid off by multi £billion businesses, something I thought could never happen  :dan

Given that 48% of the population voted remain - and would presumably therefore all back single market membership, it only requires that 2% of the 52% who voted leave would like to remain a member of the single market for it to be the majority view among the electorate. Given that those leave voters were sold the illusion that we could have single market membership, control of migration, full control of laws and £350m a week on top, it seems pretty likely to me that would hold.

Interesting that the Treasury predicted a 12% decline in Sterling in a Brexit world. It's actually down about 18%. 'Project Fear' may have actually been a bit too optimistic...

Ed Kandi

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #463 on: October 14, 2016, 11:07:24 PM »
It looks like an elaborate charade enacted by characters who are not even aware of their part in the process, May being the one likely exception.  Puppets controlled by the majus of big business and multi £billion deals.
We already had the charade of Cameron's renegotiation of the UK's membership, so no surprise really  :police:

Dipdodah

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #464 on: October 27, 2016, 10:13:09 PM »
Nissan to manufacture three new models at their Sunderland factory post Brexit.

Better than expected figures concerning British finances post Brexit.

Perhaps project fear was just bullsh*t ??? ???
The older I get, the earlier it gets late