Author Topic: O/T In or out  (Read 398429 times)

Maxross

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #375 on: June 27, 2016, 11:31:27 PM »

I suppose all the remain voters  who have been posting on here will want a rerun of the England Iceland match now as its not gone how they want it to finish.

Obviously! The British people were completely misled about the quality of our team! It's a disgrace! And it's obviously the fault of Corbyn as he didn't campaign hard enough for a England win.

(Jokes)

Fairfax

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #376 on: June 28, 2016, 07:01:08 PM »
What is fast developing as a matter of concern to me is the type of out that we are about to get. As I see it , we may be offered 1) just a bit out - we didn't really mean it, 2) not really out - give us all the perks, 3) please don't let us leave - find a way to stop it, and 4) ever so sorry - we didn't mean it and it's time for us to adopt the euro.

I voted for out. Out means out. we really need to sever all ties and start again. It will soon become clear which matters are of mutual benefit to us and the Eu, and where it is not obvious, we need to take a step back and look at our global position. Whatever the future, I am convinced that the politicians are planning to sell us down the river, and I fear that the river may be the Styx.

Pete Brooksbank

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #377 on: June 28, 2016, 07:40:05 PM »
What is fast developing as a matter of concern to me is the type of out that we are about to get. As I see it , we may be offered 1) just a bit out - we didn't really mean it, 2) not really out - give us all the perks, 3) please don't let us leave - find a way to stop it, and 4) ever so sorry - we didn't mean it and it's time for us to adopt the euro.

I voted for out. Out means out. we really need to sever all ties and start again. It will soon become clear which matters are of mutual benefit to us and the Eu, and where it is not obvious, we need to take a step back and look at our global position. Whatever the future, I am convinced that the politicians are planning to sell us down the river, and I fear that the river may be the Styx.

It really depends on the new PM, and what deal he/she gets from the EU. Jeremy Hunt has already intimated today he will seek to retain freedom of movement within the EEA. Boris, after his shambles of a column yesterday in which he suggested he could retain EEA membership AND bring in a points system (impossible) has today backtracked and said, no, he will definitely curtail freedom of movement. This will mean quitting the single market, which means we'll need to negotiate a separate trade deal with the EU. It is evident that this will be nowhere near as good as the deal we have now, but we will at least be free to then negotiate trade deals with non-EU countries as a sovereign nation. These normally take at least five years, so once you've factored in the two year negotiation period when we'll still be part of the EU, the earliest we will start experiencing the full benefits - if there are any - of the freedom Brexit affords us will be sometime after 2023. I'd say a more realistic target is 2025 and beyond.

howmanynames2pick

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #378 on: June 28, 2016, 09:59:36 PM »
i was surprised at Farage getting some supportive applause before going into rude/smug mode and getting jeered at.
i recall it being at the point where he suggested others may leave..(the applause not the jeering)

............possibly a load of old tosh...................
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12018877/The-truth-how-a-secretive-elite-created-the-EU-to-build-a-world-government.html




Adam

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #379 on: June 28, 2016, 10:27:37 PM »
What is fast developing as a matter of concern to me is the type of out that we are about to get. As I see it , we may be offered 1) just a bit out - we didn't really mean it, 2) not really out - give us all the perks, 3) please don't let us leave - find a way to stop it, and 4) ever so sorry - we didn't mean it and it's time for us to adopt the euro.

I voted for out. Out means out. we really need to sever all ties and start again. It will soon become clear which matters are of mutual benefit to us and the Eu, and where it is not obvious, we need to take a step back and look at our global position. Whatever the future, I am convinced that the politicians are planning to sell us down the river, and I fear that the river may be the Styx.

It really depends on the new PM, and what deal he/she gets from the EU. Jeremy Hunt has already intimated today he will seek to retain freedom of movement within the EEA. Boris, after his shambles of a column yesterday in which he suggested he could retain EEA membership AND bring in a points system (impossible) has today backtracked and said, no, he will definitely curtail freedom of movement. This will mean quitting the single market, which means we'll need to negotiate a separate trade deal with the EU. It is evident that this will be nowhere near as good as the deal we have now, but we will at least be free to then negotiate trade deals with non-EU countries as a sovereign nation. These normally take at least five years, so once you've factored in the two year negotiation period when we'll still be part of the EU, the earliest we will start experiencing the full benefits - if there are any - of the freedom Brexit affords us will be sometime after 2023. I'd say a more realistic target is 2025 and beyond.

I don't think there's any way in which we will leave the Common market - it would be complete economic meltdown. Any Tory PM will surely listen to the City which will be holding a gun to his or her head.

There probably is scope for the 'Norway plus' deal - with some very minor restrictions on freedom of movement. But that's still essentially a crap version of EU membership. To be honest, I think the next PM and the EU will probably end up hammering a deal which keeps us in. The EU has a history of second referendums, and both sides have a huge amount to gain compared to the current state of the world. The EU will need to weigh up the fact that striking such a deal might encourage flouncing by other countries - but that not striking one means losing their strongest military power and 2nd largest economy. I think the latter concern might win out. Maybe I'm being deliriously optimistic because the alternative is so hopeless...

These articles in the FT and Indie make the argument better than I do.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 10:41:54 PM by Adam »

Fairfax

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #380 on: June 28, 2016, 11:03:18 PM »
If we settle for a Norway style deal, then we have wasted our time. That's just a begging bowl. If we are serious we must stand on our own feet. That may be tough for a while , but it will not be the first time that we have stood alone and taken it on the chin. Or maybe the present generation is not made of what it takes.

green hats mate

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #381 on: June 29, 2016, 10:24:23 AM »
What is fast developing as a matter of concern to me is the type of out that we are about to get. As I see it , we may be offered 1) just a bit out - we didn't really mean it, 2) not really out - give us all the perks, 3) please don't let us leave - find a way to stop it, and 4) ever so sorry - we didn't mean it and it's time for us to adopt the euro.

I voted for out. Out means out. we really need to sever all ties and start again. It will soon become clear which matters are of mutual benefit to us and the Eu, and where it is not obvious, we need to take a step back and look at our global position. Whatever the future, I am convinced that the politicians are planning to sell us down the river, and I fear that the river may be the Styx.

It really depends on the new PM, and what deal he/she gets from the EU. Jeremy Hunt has already intimated today he will seek to retain freedom of movement within the EEA. Boris, after his shambles of a column yesterday in which he suggested he could retain EEA membership AND bring in a points system (impossible) has today backtracked and said, no, he will definitely curtail freedom of movement. This will mean quitting the single market, which means we'll need to negotiate a separate trade deal with the EU. It is evident that this will be nowhere near as good as the deal we have now, but we will at least be free to then negotiate trade deals with non-EU countries as a sovereign nation. These normally take at least five years, so once you've factored in the two year negotiation period when we'll still be part of the EU, the earliest we will start experiencing the full benefits - if there are any - of the freedom Brexit affords us will be sometime after 2023. I'd say a more realistic target is 2025 and beyond.

I don't think there's any way in which we will leave the Common market - it would be complete economic meltdown. Any Tory PM will surely listen to the City which will be holding a gun to his or her head.

There probably is scope for the 'Norway plus' deal - with some very minor restrictions on freedom of movement. But that's still essentially a crap version of EU membership. To be honest, I think the next PM and the EU will probably end up hammering a deal which keeps us in. The EU has a history of second referendums, and both sides have a huge amount to gain compared to the current state of the world. The EU will need to weigh up the fact that striking such a deal might encourage flouncing by other countries - but that not striking one means losing their strongest military power and 2nd largest economy. I think the latter concern might win out. Maybe I'm being deliriously optimistic because the alternative is so hopeless...

These articles in the FT and Indie make the argument better than I do.

Adam .
A reminder that you have overlooked responding to  my question to you on a previous post .

My questions on previous posts requesting you to elaborate on your Brexit effect comments on pensionsers.
Also your suggestion on state pension cut,  how do you suggest this is done and on what scale .?


Adam

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #382 on: June 29, 2016, 11:06:25 AM »
What is fast developing as a matter of concern to me is the type of out that we are about to get. As I see it , we may be offered 1) just a bit out - we didn't really mean it, 2) not really out - give us all the perks, 3) please don't let us leave - find a way to stop it, and 4) ever so sorry - we didn't mean it and it's time for us to adopt the euro.

I voted for out. Out means out. we really need to sever all ties and start again. It will soon become clear which matters are of mutual benefit to us and the Eu, and where it is not obvious, we need to take a step back and look at our global position. Whatever the future, I am convinced that the politicians are planning to sell us down the river, and I fear that the river may be the Styx.

It really depends on the new PM, and what deal he/she gets from the EU. Jeremy Hunt has already intimated today he will seek to retain freedom of movement within the EEA. Boris, after his shambles of a column yesterday in which he suggested he could retain EEA membership AND bring in a points system (impossible) has today backtracked and said, no, he will definitely curtail freedom of movement. This will mean quitting the single market, which means we'll need to negotiate a separate trade deal with the EU. It is evident that this will be nowhere near as good as the deal we have now, but we will at least be free to then negotiate trade deals with non-EU countries as a sovereign nation. These normally take at least five years, so once you've factored in the two year negotiation period when we'll still be part of the EU, the earliest we will start experiencing the full benefits - if there are any - of the freedom Brexit affords us will be sometime after 2023. I'd say a more realistic target is 2025 and beyond.

I don't think there's any way in which we will leave the Common market - it would be complete economic meltdown. Any Tory PM will surely listen to the City which will be holding a gun to his or her head.

There probably is scope for the 'Norway plus' deal - with some very minor restrictions on freedom of movement. But that's still essentially a crap version of EU membership. To be honest, I think the next PM and the EU will probably end up hammering a deal which keeps us in. The EU has a history of second referendums, and both sides have a huge amount to gain compared to the current state of the world. The EU will need to weigh up the fact that striking such a deal might encourage flouncing by other countries - but that not striking one means losing their strongest military power and 2nd largest economy. I think the latter concern might win out. Maybe I'm being deliriously optimistic because the alternative is so hopeless...

These articles in the FT and Indie make the argument better than I do.

Adam .
A reminder that you have overlooked responding to  my question to you on a previous post .

My questions on previous posts requesting you to elaborate on your Brexit effect comments on pensionsers.
Also your suggestion on state pension cut,  how do you suggest this is done and on what scale .?

Recessions don't affect pensioners in the same way because you can't be made redundant from an annuity.

I'm not sure - much like the average Brexiteer I haven't thought the idea through very much. How about in proportion to how much HMRC's tax receipts fall in the recession we're about to see? So if the tax take falls 5%, pensions fall 5%. Fair?

Tash

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #383 on: June 29, 2016, 11:45:03 AM »
What is fast developing as a matter of concern to me is the type of out that we are about to get. As I see it , we may be offered 1) just a bit out - we didn't really mean it, 2) not really out - give us all the perks, 3) please don't let us leave - find a way to stop it, and 4) ever so sorry - we didn't mean it and it's time for us to adopt the euro.

I voted for out. Out means out. we really need to sever all ties and start again. It will soon become clear which matters are of mutual benefit to us and the Eu, and where it is not obvious, we need to take a step back and look at our global position. Whatever the future, I am convinced that the politicians are planning to sell us down the river, and I fear that the river may be the Styx.

It really depends on the new PM, and what deal he/she gets from the EU. Jeremy Hunt has already intimated today he will seek to retain freedom of movement within the EEA. Boris, after his shambles of a column yesterday in which he suggested he could retain EEA membership AND bring in a points system (impossible) has today backtracked and said, no, he will definitely curtail freedom of movement. This will mean quitting the single market, which means we'll need to negotiate a separate trade deal with the EU. It is evident that this will be nowhere near as good as the deal we have now, but we will at least be free to then negotiate trade deals with non-EU countries as a sovereign nation. These normally take at least five years, so once you've factored in the two year negotiation period when we'll still be part of the EU, the earliest we will start experiencing the full benefits - if there are any - of the freedom Brexit affords us will be sometime after 2023. I'd say a more realistic target is 2025 and beyond.

I don't think there's any way in which we will leave the Common market - it would be complete economic meltdown. Any Tory PM will surely listen to the City which will be holding a gun to his or her head.

There probably is scope for the 'Norway plus' deal - with some very minor restrictions on freedom of movement. But that's still essentially a crap version of EU membership. To be honest, I think the next PM and the EU will probably end up hammering a deal which keeps us in. The EU has a history of second referendums, and both sides have a huge amount to gain compared to the current state of the world. The EU will need to weigh up the fact that striking such a deal might encourage flouncing by other countries - but that not striking one means losing their strongest military power and 2nd largest economy. I think the latter concern might win out. Maybe I'm being deliriously optimistic because the alternative is so hopeless...

These articles in the FT and Indie make the argument better than I do.

Adam .
A reminder that you have overlooked responding to  my question to you on a previous post .

My questions on previous posts requesting you to elaborate on your Brexit effect comments on pensionsers.
Also your suggestion on state pension cut,  how do you suggest this is done and on what scale .?

Recessions don't affect pensioners in the same way because you can't be made redundant from an annuity.

I'm not sure - much like the average Brexiteer I haven't thought the idea through very much. How about in proportion to how much HMRC's tax receipts fall in the recession we're about to see? So if the tax take falls 5%, pensions fall 5%. Fair?

Yes it's fair if it is done across the board 5% cut for all, including Bankers, Politicians, students, ordinary working families and people on benefits.
IWJLTSTSPFKARIADASICR

Pete Brooksbank

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #384 on: June 29, 2016, 12:26:30 PM »
If we settle for a Norway style deal, then we have wasted our time. That's just a begging bowl. If we are serious we must stand on our own feet. That may be tough for a while , but it will not be the first time that we have stood alone and taken it on the chin. Or maybe the present generation is not made of what it takes.

Yes, we will have wasted our time. That's why people who supported remain but accept the democratic will of the people (like me) are still bloody furious.

Look, it's quite simple: if we remain in the EEA with minor concessions on free movement, we'll basically be back to exactly where we were this time last week when we had a deal to stop EU nationals claiming benefits until they'd worked here for four years. That deal is immediately void, by the way, so unskilled migrants can move over tomorrow and fill their boots for the next two and a bit years while we're still in the EU.

There's a decent chance no concessions will be granted, so we'll have to quit the EEA to avoid a democratic crisis and the ensuing civil unrest.

If we quit the EEA, we then have to negotiate a trade deal with the single market - which trades as a whole bloc, remember - and those terms will not be as good as those we enjoy now. I'm still hopeful a cordial agreement can be reached to minimise how bad the terms are, but they will still be poorer than now.

I'm still baffled as to why anyone thinks any of this is a good idea, but hey ho - we are where we are. Let's try and make the best of this absolute bloody shambles and hope the next PM is able to assemble a VERY good negotiating team. Is David Newton available?

Maxross

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #385 on: June 29, 2016, 12:30:08 PM »
If we settle for a Norway style deal, then we have wasted our time. That's just a begging bowl. If we are serious we must stand on our own feet. That may be tough for a while , but it will not be the first time that we have stood alone and taken it on the chin. Or maybe the present generation is not made of what it takes.

Speaking as a relatively young person, I find your comment a little bit offensive.  It’s not some re-run of the battle of Britain, it’s my life.  I’ve got a large mortgage, bills to pay and kids to feed.  For me the economic arguments are/were the key things to consider.  In my industry, we deal with the common market on a daily basis.  I haven’t worked anywhere where we don’t do regular business with companies that operate within the EU.  So I can see a direct threat to my career prospects and my industry in leaving.  I have worked for very big companies, but for the most part I’ve worked in small to medium firms where the impact will be significant. 

My line on this has been consistent throughout the pages of this thread.  I have been happy to acknowledge that leaving could be a huge success, however, it is risky and a jump into the dark.  It’s undoubtedly going to cause massive upheaval and as pointed out by others, new trade deals will take many years to negotiate.  The world economy is still fragile, we are essentially going through an economic depression.  For me the risks of another recession are too great and I think the potential threats of financial hardship outweigh the as yet unspecified benefits.

You have mentioned that you are retired, therefore your circumstances are completely different to mine.  For instance I assume you won’t be worried about paying the mortgage or losing your job and don’t have young children who are dependent on you. To try and compare this to the sacrifices made by my grandfather’s generation is both pointless and unfair.  We are facing a completely different set of circumstances and certainly not facing an existential threat by remaining.

The negotiations we are now seeing and the different options we are faced with should come as absolutely no surprise to anyone.  Countless posts on this very thread from myself and others pointed out the only realistic options open to us if we voted leave and so it has been proven.  You were always going to be sold down the river by the politicians, because they campaigned on promises that were unrealistic and the consequences were completely predictable. There was no clear plan spelled out by the leave side and it is now obvious that is because they never had one.

Maxross

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #386 on: June 29, 2016, 12:58:12 PM »
As I have pointed before, long term inward investment is the big worry. This article discusses the Nissain plant in Sunderland which I mentioned in a previous post. Working in this industry I know how competitive investment in the manufacturing sector is. Many large multinationals would be only to happy to move their manufacturing facilities into other low wage areas within the EU in the long term. It can be a real battle to get them to invest in the UK sometimes.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/900d015a-3ba2-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a.html#axzz4Cy6ARVec

howmanynames2pick

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #387 on: June 29, 2016, 05:56:46 PM »
The Sunderland vote was a real big surprise. ...

green hats mate

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #388 on: June 29, 2016, 08:48:11 PM »
What is fast developing as a matter of concern to me is the type of out that we are about to get. As I see it , we may be offered 1) just a bit out - we didn't really mean it, 2) not really out - give us all the perks, 3) please don't let us leave - find a way to stop it, and 4) ever so sorry - we didn't mean it and it's time for us to adopt the euro.

I voted for out. Out means out. we really need to sever all ties and start again. It will soon become clear which matters are of mutual benefit to us and the Eu, and where it is not obvious, we need to take a step back and look at our global position. Whatever the future, I am convinced that the politicians are planning to sell us down the river, and I fear that the river may be the Styx.

It really depends on the new PM, and what deal he/she gets from the EU. Jeremy Hunt has already intimated today he will seek to retain freedom of movement within the EEA. Boris, after his shambles of a column yesterday in which he suggested he could retain EEA membership AND bring in a points system (impossible) has today backtracked and said, no, he will definitely curtail freedom of movement. This will mean quitting the single market, which means we'll need to negotiate a separate trade deal with the EU. It is evident that this will be nowhere near as good as the deal we have now, but we will at least be free to then negotiate trade deals with non-EU countries as a sovereign nation. These normally take at least five years, so once you've factored in the two year negotiation period when we'll still be part of the EU, the earliest we will start experiencing the full benefits - if there are any - of the freedom Brexit affords us will be sometime after 2023. I'd say a more realistic target is 2025 and beyond.

I don't think there's any way in which we will leave the Common market - it would be complete economic meltdown. Any Tory PM will surely listen to the City which will be holding a gun to his or her head.

There probably is scope for the 'Norway plus' deal - with some very minor restrictions on freedom of movement. But that's still essentially a crap version of EU membership. To be honest, I think the next PM and the EU will probably end up hammering a deal which keeps us in. The EU has a history of second referendums, and both sides have a huge amount to gain compared to the current state of the world. The EU will need to weigh up the fact that striking such a deal might encourage flouncing by other countries - but that not striking one means losing their strongest military power and 2nd largest economy. I think the latter concern might win out. Maybe I'm being deliriously optimistic because the alternative is so hopeless...

These articles in the FT and Indie make the argument better than I do.

Adam .
A reminder that you have overlooked responding to  my question to you on a previous post .

My questions on previous posts requesting you to elaborate on your Brexit effect comments on pensionsers.
Also your suggestion on state pension cut,  how do you suggest this is done and on what scale .?

Recessions don't affect pensioners in the same way because you can't be made redundant from an annuity.

I'm not sure - much like the average Brexiteer I haven't thought the idea through very much. How about in proportion to how much HMRC's tax receipts fall in the recession we're about to see? So if the tax take falls 5%, pensions fall 5%. Fair?

Thats why I asked for a response Adam ,  to me it was apparent this was the case .
Does than mean you have not though any of your statements through ?

Without stopping to think I can give a definitive response to your replies ,

1  . If Stephen Crapp becomes PM you will not get a call from Works and Pensions to replace him .

2   Lets get building more food banks ready for the pensioners .

green hats mate

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #389 on: June 30, 2016, 11:42:26 AM »
Knock on door last night , neighbour with prezzies back from their fortnights holiday .

Temp 35 c in Lithuania !!!!  .  Anyone tried Lithuanian chocolate ?

Think they fixed the holiday at a great time .

When asked what was their take on the Brexit vote response was a relaxed " nothing will change "   . 

No self inflicted stress like us posters on this thread

Dipohdoh has a lot to answer for  ???