O/T In or out

[green hats mate]

The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!

In 2016  a civil war commenced on Pilgrim Patter based on lies by politicians and speculation from "experts "

Why do you keep putting experts in inverted commas? I know the answer of course, it's an attempt to try and belittle anyone who's studied the facts and produces an opinion that differs from your own. It's a bit silly isn't it?

Not silly , have experienced like many the advice of people who,s studied the facts ,  often results in disaster .       Wise not to rely too much on these experts .   weather you are  an IN or OUTER  .

[Maxross]

The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!

In 2016  a civil war commenced on Pilgrim Patter based on lies by politicians and speculation from "experts "

Why do you keep putting experts in inverted commas? I know the answer of course, it's an attempt to try and belittle anyone who's studied the facts and produces an opinion that differs from your own. It's a bit silly isn't it?

Not silly , have experienced like many the advice of people who,s studied the facts ,  often results in disaster .       Wise not to rely too much on these experts .   weather you are  an IN or OUTER  .

This is about the daftest comment I've seen on this thread yet and that's saying something! Then again, like your messiah Farage said the other day, "I think the experts have got it wrong on smoking". 

[Maxross]

I'm not saying experts are infallible, but does that mean we should ignore all experts? Everyday your very existence relys on experts relying on facts. It why planes fly, cars stop when you touch the brakes and bridges don't normally collapse when you drive over them. You can't just dismiss all experts based on the fact you've had a few bad experiences! If you disagree with something an expert has said, challenge it directly and prove why they are wrong. That goes on in the academic world every single day, trust me.

I can't really believe we are having this conversation. It's surreal.

[Fairfax]

I well remember 50 years ago when I was working for the Ministry of Defence and had a very little part in the development of the multi role combat aircraft, later known as the Tornado. That was a combined British, German and Italian project with co-operation which worked before we had any formal link with Europe. There was also the Jaguar and the civil Concorde in co-operation with the French. We had trade deals with the commonwealth and it was a good time to be British. Mary Quant, Twiggy and The Beatles to name but a few were promoting Britain in the United States and apart from the destruction of the grammar school system it was a good time. The problems with such things as the three day week in the early seventies were predominantly the result of political intransigence. During that period, international stability was thanks to NATO, although the Vietnam situation is a major regret. Fortunately, we elected to take no part in that fiasco. We had significant trade in cattle, importing from Argentina and Exporting to the European Continent. Anyone remember Franz Buitelaar? He exported £1 million worth of cattle every day. Finally the seventies were great for me when my wife presented me two wonderful and successful children.

Since that period, we have gradually become more introverted and uncertain of our place in the World. Maybe we will now redefine ourselves and I am optimistic that my future, what little there may be left to me, is brighter than for many years.

[Maxross]

I well remember 50 years ago when I was working for the Ministry of Defence and had a very little part in the development of the multi role combat aircraft, later known as the Tornado. That was a combined British, German and Italian project with co-operation which worked before we had any formal link with Europe. There was also the Jaguar and the civil Concorde in co-operation with the French. We had trade deals with the commonwealth and it was a good time to be British. Mary Quant, Twiggy and The Beatles to name but a few were promoting Britain in the United States and apart from the destruction of the grammar school system it was a good time. The problems with such things as the three day week in the early seventies were predominantly the result of political intransigence. During that period, international stability was thanks to NATO, although the Vietnam situation is a major regret. Fortunately, we elected to take no part in that fiasco. We had significant trade in cattle, importing from Argentina and Exporting to the European Continent. Anyone remember Franz Buitelaar? He exported £1 million worth of cattle every day. Finally the seventies were great for me when my wife presented me two wonderful and successful children.

Since that period, we have gradually become more introverted and uncertain of our place in the World. Maybe we will now redefine ourselves and I am optimistic that my future, what little there may be left to me, is brighter than for many years.

That's interesting Fairfax, there are parallels between us. I worked and played a small part on the Joint Strike Fighter project working for the US Government at RR in Bristol and also have a happy family with two children. Many of those I worked with had worked on the Concorde and Tornado projects.

You must surely concede though, that the world has changed an awful lot since the 60's? We were riding the wave of a post war reconstruction boom back then. We were also in the process of transition from a superpower and rulers of an Empire back to a nation state and still retained plenty of power and influence at that point. The Suez crisis however, in 1956 laid bare the fact that we were no longer a great power.  Unless you are suggesting that the Royal Navy mount some new expeditions to rebuild an empire, those days are over.

I'm proud to be British and we are great at so many things, but we have to work cleverly within our limitations if we are going to continue to be an influence globally. Within the EU we had a leading role, are we going to have that kind of influence over say the Americans or Chinese?

[Pilgrim86]

Anyone remember Franz Buitelaar? He exported £1 million worth of cattle every day.

My Granddad worked there. As far as I remember, he loved it.

[green hats mate]

The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!

In 2016  a civil war commenced on Pilgrim Patter based on lies by politicians and speculation from "experts "

Why do you keep putting experts in inverted commas? I know the answer of course, it's an attempt to try and belittle anyone who's studied the facts and produces an opinion that differs from your own. It's a bit silly isn't it?

Not silly , have experienced like many the advice of people who,s studied the facts ,  often results in disaster .       Wise not to rely too much on these experts .   weather you are  an IN or OUTER  .

This is about the daftest comment I've seen on this thread yet and that's saying something! Then again, like your messiah Farage said the other day, "I think the experts have got it wrong on smoking". 

Now that is silly Max , can you name an expert who never got it wrong ?   Then again you appear vulnerable to incorrect assertions .   Voted tory more times than you ,  never voted labour and looks as though I ever will .

On this thread I have panned leaders of all political parties , and all Brexit and Withdraw  teams front lines .
Farage , Camerron , Corbyn ,Boris, IDS etc  ,  men with little more integrity than the gravy train mob at Brussels .
I,ve had enough of EU vote today ,  spent morning playing golf with a former senior union official sulking at the outcome .
Then in the car park was confronted by a none British golfer rejoicing in the outcome .
Sorry everyone can,t be pleased .
Tell you the same as I told the golfer maybe you side came second because they were beaten by slightly better liar,s .
Got to live with it and get on with our lives ,  Provided pay is cut or pegged at the present level every thing will turn out fine .  Dare,nt tell my ex-union colleague that !!!

[Maxross]

The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!

In 2016  a civil war commenced on Pilgrim Patter based on lies by politicians and speculation from "experts "

Why do you keep putting experts in inverted commas? I know the answer of course, it's an attempt to try and belittle anyone who's studied the facts and produces an opinion that differs from your own. It's a bit silly isn't it?

Not silly , have experienced like many the advice of people who,s studied the facts ,  often results in disaster .       Wise not to rely too much on these experts .   weather you are  an IN or OUTER  .

This is about the daftest comment I've seen on this thread yet and that's saying something! Then again, like your messiah Farage said the other day, "I think the experts have got it wrong on smoking". 

Now that is silly Max , can you name an expert who never got it wrong ?   Then again you appear vulnerable to incorrect assertions .   Voted tory more times than you ,  never voted labour and looks as though I ever will .

On this thread I have panned leaders of all political parties , and all Brexit and Withdraw  teams front lines .
Farage , Camerron , Corbyn ,Boris, IDS etc  ,  men with little more integrity than the gravy train mob at Brussels .
I,ve had enough of EU vote today ,  spent morning playing golf with a former senior union official sulking at the outcome .
Then in the car park was confronted by a none British golfer rejoicing in the outcome .
Sorry everyone can,t be pleased .
Tell you the same as I told the golfer maybe you side came second because they were beaten by slightly better liar,s .
Got to live with it and get on with our lives ,  Provided pay is cut or pegged at the present level every thing will turn out fine .  Dare,nt tell my ex-union colleague that !!!

I think I made it clear that all experts are fallible, of course they are. However, you can't just dismiss them simply for being "experts". Working on that assumption we may as well do everything off the hoof. If you feel an expert has said something which is incorrect or disingenuous, simply provide a credible explanation as to why. You can't very well scold me though for claiming I said all experts are infallible when you are claiming the opposite!

When it comes to being vulnerable to incorrect assertions, all I'd say is take a look at those who led the leave campaign tripping over each other to disown all the claims they made pre referendum. Leave voters bought all that hook line and sinker.  Don't you feel just a little bit angry about that?

I'm glad you enjoyed your game of golf, but you don't need to worry, I've accepted the result. I just think it's important to hold these politicians to account and point out that they lied to us all. That's now very obvious, along with the fact that they never had a plan. 

[green hats mate]

The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!

In 2016  a civil war commenced on Pilgrim Patter based on lies by politicians and speculation from "experts "

Why do you keep putting experts in inverted commas? I know the answer of course, it's an attempt to try and belittle anyone who's studied the facts and produces an opinion that differs from your own. It's a bit silly isn't it?

Not silly , have experienced like many the advice of people who,s studied the facts ,  often results in disaster .       Wise not to rely too much on these experts .   weather you are  an IN or OUTER  .

This is about the daftest comment I've seen on this thread yet and that's saying something! Then again, like your messiah Farage said the other day, "I think the experts have got it wrong on smoking". 

Now that is silly Max , can you name an expert who never got it wrong ?   Then again you appear vulnerable to incorrect assertions .   Voted tory more times than you ,  never voted labour and looks as though I ever will .

On this thread I have panned leaders of all political parties , and all Brexit and Withdraw  teams front lines .
Farage , Camerron , Corbyn ,Boris, IDS etc  ,  men with little more integrity than the gravy train mob at Brussels .
I,ve had enough of EU vote today ,  spent morning playing golf with a former senior union official sulking at the outcome .
Then in the car park was confronted by a none British golfer rejoicing in the outcome .
Sorry everyone can,t be pleased .
Tell you the same as I told the golfer maybe you side came second because they were beaten by slightly better liar,s .
Got to live with it and get on with our lives ,  Provided pay is cut or pegged at the present level every thing will turn out fine .  Dare,nt tell my ex-union colleague that !!!

I think I made it clear that all experts are fallible, of course they are. However, you can't just dismiss them simply for being "experts". Working on that assumption we may as well do everything off the hoof. If you feel an expert has said something which is incorrect or disingenuous, simply provide a credible explanation as to why. You can't very well scold me though for claiming I said all experts are infallible when you are claiming the opposite!

When it comes to being vulnerable to incorrect assertions, all I'd say is take a look at those who led the leave campaign tripping over each other to disown all the claims they made pre referendum. Leave voters bought all that hook line and sinker.  Don't you feel just a little bit angry about that?

I'm glad you enjoyed your game of golf, but you don't need to worry, I've accepted the result. I just think it's important to hold these politicians to account and point out that they lied to us all. That's now very obvious, along with the fact that they never had a plan.

I stated both sides were liars Max , I think your right many voters fell for these lies .   But I would not make the assertion that one side gained more votes than the other this way , I would hope these votes where evenly spread .Shame there was not a more emphatic outcome ,
 near enough  a 0-0 draw but no shoot-outs in this game .

[Maxross]

The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!

In 2016  a civil war commenced on Pilgrim Patter based on lies by politicians and speculation from "experts "

Why do you keep putting experts in inverted commas? I know the answer of course, it's an attempt to try and belittle anyone who's studied the facts and produces an opinion that differs from your own. It's a bit silly isn't it?

Not silly , have experienced like many the advice of people who,s studied the facts ,  often results in disaster .       Wise not to rely too much on these experts .   weather you are  an IN or OUTER  .

This is about the daftest comment I've seen on this thread yet and that's saying something! Then again, like your messiah Farage said the other day, "I think the experts have got it wrong on smoking". 

Now that is silly Max , can you name an expert who never got it wrong ?   Then again you appear vulnerable to incorrect assertions .   Voted tory more times than you ,  never voted labour and looks as though I ever will .

On this thread I have panned leaders of all political parties , and all Brexit and Withdraw  teams front lines .
Farage , Camerron , Corbyn ,Boris, IDS etc  ,  men with little more integrity than the gravy train mob at Brussels .
I,ve had enough of EU vote today ,  spent morning playing golf with a former senior union official sulking at the outcome .
Then in the car park was confronted by a none British golfer rejoicing in the outcome .
Sorry everyone can,t be pleased .
Tell you the same as I told the golfer maybe you side came second because they were beaten by slightly better liar,s .
Got to live with it and get on with our lives ,  Provided pay is cut or pegged at the present level every thing will turn out fine .  Dare,nt tell my ex-union colleague that !!!

I think I made it clear that all experts are fallible, of course they are. However, you can't just dismiss them simply for being "experts". Working on that assumption we may as well do everything off the hoof. If you feel an expert has said something which is incorrect or disingenuous, simply provide a credible explanation as to why. You can't very well scold me though for claiming I said all experts are infallible when you are claiming the opposite!

When it comes to being vulnerable to incorrect assertions, all I'd say is take a look at those who led the leave campaign tripping over each other to disown all the claims they made pre referendum. Leave voters bought all that hook line and sinker.  Don't you feel just a little bit angry about that?

I'm glad you enjoyed your game of golf, but you don't need to worry, I've accepted the result. I just think it's important to hold these politicians to account and point out that they lied to us all. That's now very obvious, along with the fact that they never had a plan.

I stated both sides were liars Max , I think your right many voters fell for these lies .   But I would not make the assertion that one side gained more votes than the other this way , I would hope these votes where evenly spread .Shame there was not a more emphatic outcome ,
 near enough  a 0-0 draw but no shoot-outs in this game .

I certainly take your point, there was stuff that the remain side said that I didn't think was credible either.  That's why I stopped listening to politicians. But there were credible sources of info out there (some may call them "experts") who were providing information which has since proven to be correct.

I think it's a dangerous step for society if we simply dismiss all expert opinion. That leaves us in the hands of the demogogues. For me, that was what was most concerning about the leave campaign. They realised early on that normal rational debate wasn't cutting it, so they simply pumped out a load of completely false claims and tapped into primal fears. I think we really should hold anyone proven to have done that to account. I welcome welcome anyone providing evidence of that from the remain side too. George Osbornes emergency budget was a good example of that.

[Fairfax]

I've just thought of something else from the era of television expansion in the sixties, and the prophetic words of Millicent Martin:

That was the week that was. It's over. Let it go!

[Maxross]

I've just thought of something else from the era of television expansion in the sixties, and the prophetic words of Millicent Martin:

That was the week that was. It's over. Let it go!

The trouble is, it's precient because these people are now in charge.

[The Third Twin]

Anyone remember Franz Buitelaar? He exported £1 million worth of cattle every day.

My Granddad worked there. As far as I remember, he loved it.

I worked for him for 6 years, and  the daily export value was never anywhere near the heights you quote. More like £1m every 3 months. Top bloke. Sadly no longer, the big c.

[ceamboy]

I suppose all the remain voters  who have been posting on here will want a rerun of the England Iceland match now as its not gone how they want it to finish.

[Ed Kandi]

The answer to Dipodah's original query appears to be 'out'.  :dan
Is this the longest ever thread on Patter Ken?