Author Topic: O/T In or out  (Read 398328 times)

green hats mate

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #345 on: June 26, 2016, 08:10:47 PM »
Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
Secondly, apparently young people are moaning that older people have "taken their future"
I ask them "would you want to walk through a minefield first or second"?
We've been through it....
Little doubt that they grey vote made a big contribution at Boston ,  maybe someone (maybe Adam) can explain why us present day oldies got it all  wrong and those only just entering adulthood seem to know the answers to a very complex emerging part our history , a subject even the experts disagree on .   

If there was  another referendum what action could be taken to get the correct outcome .

  1 .  Ban the over 60s voting

  2    Declare the negative vote the winner .      i.e .   in  52out    48 stay vote,  declare the 48 vote the winner .

I feel it's the wrong decision because it has put at peril Britain's place in the world's biggest single common market - which in 2016 our economy is deeply intertwined with and dependent upon. This vote has led to the resignation of a very competent Prime Minister - to be replaced by either Boris Johnson (who clearly didn't actually want or expect this result and has no clue whatsoever what to do about it), or Jeremy Corbyn (who has no clue whatsoever about anything, at all). The second largest constituent nation of the UK is likely to accede (who can blame them?), and we are faced with either erecting a land border around our fourth nation or it also acceding. Oh, I may also shortly lose the right to live and work freely across 27 different nations - should I have wished to do so - and many of my friends from abroad are considering leaving the country. The impact of 'making our own laws' is actually that we have to rewrite 40 years of legislation over boring but essential things like product standards - basically replacing European red tape with British red tape and ensuring that businesses have to meet two sets rather than one if they wish to sell abroad.

A year ago Great Britain had the fastest growing economy in the Western world. Now we have no leadership,fewer friends and no bloody clue where we'll be in five years time.

Happy Independence Day!

Odd that you keep giving us long sermon,s about a very complex subject yet when I put a simple question to you that only needs a short answer you fail to respond !!!   what is your response to my clear question ?

Judging on your comments re Cameron I think it,s time to change your spin doctor .

Your question was why do I think Brexit is the wrong call. My response was that - amongst other things - the country is now utterly rudderless with no effective government, our economy is going to be deeply wounded, the United Kingdom itself is likely to break up and I may lose the freedom to live and work across Europe. If you still can't digest that, then I'm sorry - it's not possible to simplify it any more. Or perhaps you think these are good things?

And 'long sermon'? It was one paragraph...




The question was ,
 If there is another referendum what action could be taken to get the correct outcome for the Remains ,

1  Ban the over 60,s voting ,
2 Declare the negative vote the winner , i e 52 out 48 stay ............declare the 48 stay the winner .

The long sermon was an overall description of the many posts of propaganda from your  Leave EU Reference
Manual .



howmanynames2pick

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #346 on: June 26, 2016, 08:12:00 PM »

green hats mate

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #347 on: June 26, 2016, 08:45:36 PM »
It strikes me that Brexiteers are willfully ignorant to the options that face us following a Leave vote. If we want to control migration - rightly or wrongly probably the number one concern of Leave votes - we will not have anything like access to the single market on the terms we do now. That would be somewhere between very bad and catastrophic for the economy. It'll mean something between tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of jobs being lost. Just look at what has happened to indicators of business confidence and investment in 2016 at the mere possibility of an exit.

Who will it be who loses their jobs? It certainly won't be people like Boris Johnson and Michael Gove - recessions don't hit Westminster. Could that be why they're so carefree about the prospect of exit? Could it also be one of the reasons why pensioners - whose incomes are not linked to economic performance in the way those of working age people are - are more prone to voting for leave?

Surprised that your EXIT EU REFERENCE MANUAL failed to predict Dodgy Dave would go .

Can you explain to us less educated OAPs why our income not linked to economic performance performance in the same way as working age people ?

Fairfax

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #348 on: June 26, 2016, 11:04:52 PM »
We have our nation back. We must fight against all who attempt to overturn democracy. They ask what is our plan? It is to replace the European laws that we wish to continue with, by passing acts to make it so, and to reject those which we do not wish to continue with. Then we get on with governing the nation. I think that will do for now. What we are offered is blood, toil, tears and sweat (apologies to Sir Winston), but we will emerge into the sunlight of the Britain (historically England) that has been our way of life for the best part of a thousand years. We have always opposed the overpowering force of the strongest power in Europe by backing the second strongest. This way, we keep Europe under control, although Louis XIV, Napoleon and Hitler temporarily gave us problems.

I fear that any attempt to overturn a democratic decision, by whatever means, will result in blood letting on a level that has not been seen in our nation certainly since the act of settlement, and probably much longer. We must move forward and educate the younger generation who cannot remember what it means to be in charge of our own country, and do business with the rest of the world (including Europe). If we have decent products and services to sell, the world will buy. Don't let anyone convince you that the vote was a mistake. It was the saving of a nation, and I have the temerity to suggest, the saving of the 21st Century World.

Pete Brooksbank

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #349 on: June 26, 2016, 11:51:13 PM »
We have our nation back. We must fight against all who attempt to overturn democracy. They ask what is our plan? It is to replace the European laws that we wish to continue with, by passing acts to make it so, and to reject those which we do not wish to continue with. Then we get on with governing the nation. I think that will do for now. What we are offered is blood, toil, tears and sweat (apologies to Sir Winston), but we will emerge into the sunlight of the Britain (historically England) that has been our way of life for the best part of a thousand years. We have always opposed the overpowering force of the strongest power in Europe by backing the second strongest. This way, we keep Europe under control, although Louis XIV, Napoleon and Hitler temporarily gave us problems.

I fear that any attempt to overturn a democratic decision, by whatever means, will result in blood letting on a level that has not been seen in our nation certainly since the act of settlement, and probably much longer. We must move forward and educate the younger generation who cannot remember what it means to be in charge of our own country, and do business with the rest of the world (including Europe). If we have decent products and services to sell, the world will buy. Don't let anyone convince you that the vote was a mistake. It was the saving of a nation, and I have the temerity to suggest, the saving of the 21st Century World.

Yeah, except Boris has tonight confirmed he wants to stay in the single market, so his plan is basically everything staying exactly the same as now - we just won't get a vote in the EU parliament.

That what you voted for?

Fairfax

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #350 on: June 27, 2016, 01:29:28 AM »
I don't remember voting on what Boris thinks, nor do I believe his opinions to be relevant. I know only what I voted for, and that is to return the sovereignty of my country to the state that I enjoyed in my youth. It was a matter of Great Britain, or little britain as a minor parish in an out of control monolith. Parliament will decide what we agree to as we are once again a unitary power beholden to no other nation. How parliament is constituted will depend on the will of the people, and as such, I see the need for an early general election to sort out the present chaos. Let us make our own laws and stop worrying about the fetters of a single market or any other European pretension. We voted for a single market once and we were duped . We should not fall into that trap again. If we mess up this God-given opportunity, history will be unforgiving.

lonegunman

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #351 on: June 27, 2016, 08:54:25 AM »
Well said Fairfax, i feel exactly the same.
Boris plays the buffoon, in reality he's just like dodgy Dave. Politics is a dirty game, they all fid and would stich up anyone to get where they want to be.
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between.
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When Confronted By A Difficult Problem, You Can Solve It More Easily By Reducing It To The Question, "How Would The Lone Ranger Have Handled This?

Maxross

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #352 on: June 27, 2016, 10:02:40 AM »
Just to make absolutely clear, I don't back a second referendum.

Now that the lies are starting to unravel though, with Leavers tripping over each other to back tracking on the £350m and immigration, I would be interested to hear what those who voted leave feel about the fact that they were sold a whole bunch of lies?

Maxross

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #353 on: June 27, 2016, 10:18:24 AM »
We have our nation back. We must fight against all who attempt to overturn democracy. They ask what is our plan? It is to replace the European laws that we wish to continue with, by passing acts to make it so, and to reject those which we do not wish to continue with. Then we get on with governing the nation. I think that will do for now. What we are offered is blood, toil, tears and sweat (apologies to Sir Winston), but we will emerge into the sunlight of the Britain (historically England) that has been our way of life for the best part of a thousand years. We have always opposed the overpowering force of the strongest power in Europe by backing the second strongest. This way, we keep Europe under control, although Louis XIV, Napoleon and Hitler temporarily gave us problems.

I fear that any attempt to overturn a democratic decision, by whatever means, will result in blood letting on a level that has not been seen in our nation certainly since the act of settlement, and probably much longer. We must move forward and educate the younger generation who cannot remember what it means to be in charge of our own country, and do business with the rest of the world (including Europe). If we have decent products and services to sell, the world will buy. Don't let anyone convince you that the vote was a mistake. It was the saving of a nation, and I have the temerity to suggest, the saving of the 21st Century World.

I don't know how old you are, but I'm not sure if that country as you remember it ever really existed. It's natural to always look back at the past with rose tinted glasses. Certainly in my studies of history and reading literature from the time, things weren't all that great.

Even if that place you remember so fondly did exist, it doesn't any more, we live in a completely different world to the one we did 50 years ago. We can either choose to embrace that and be a major player, or we can go off and bury our heads in the sand.

The world is a global place now and, although a still a great nation, we are not the great power we once were. The Aneeicans, the Chinese, and now the EU, may listen to us but in the end they will do what is in their own best interests and we will be powerless to stop them. As part of the EU, we were a strong influence within a large block of nations and had a great deal more collective bargaining power.

We have to look forwards not backwards if we are going to continue to be a great nation.

Pete Brooksbank

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #354 on: June 27, 2016, 10:20:55 AM »
I don't remember voting on what Boris thinks, nor do I believe his opinions to be relevant. I know only what I voted for, and that is to return the sovereignty of my country to the state that I enjoyed in my youth. It was a matter of Great Britain, or little britain as a minor parish in an out of control monolith. Parliament will decide what we agree to as we are once again a unitary power beholden to no other nation. How parliament is constituted will depend on the will of the people, and as such, I see the need for an early general election to sort out the present chaos. Let us make our own laws and stop worrying about the fetters of a single market or any other European pretension. We voted for a single market once and we were duped . We should not fall into that trap again. If we mess up this God-given opportunity, history will be unforgiving.

You voted to leave the EU. You did not vote to leave the single market. There is therefore absolutely no democratic obligation for the UK government to also quit the EEA, hence the leave campaign now preparing their supporters for this eventuality.

As I said a few pages ago, single market membership – which, like it or not, is critical for the continued presence of financial institutions in the city of London - carries with it many of the same obligations as full EU membership, with absolutely none of the control. We lose the veto on Turkey. We lose the ability to influence laws which we will be expected to abide by. We lose the right, even, to shape the EU’s border control policies, which means we will have even less control of our borders than we do now.

This puts the Government – and it really doesn’t matter who the Government is – in an impossible position.

They either quit the EU AND the single market, and condemn the UK to catastrophic financial ruin as the one thing that keeps this country afloat, the City, departs to Dublin or Frankfurt. Or they commit the UK to continued EEA membership, and betray the millions of Leave voters who voted to ‘take back control’.

The financial realities of the global marketplace means they will probably be forced to opt for the latter. I fear as this becomes apparent, and millions of leave voters realise they were lied to, we are in for social disorder on a scale we have never seen in our lifetimes.

Or they can just quit the single market. Which would be an act of extraordinary vandalism, and unless some kind of deal could be arranged to retain the ‘pass’ outside of the EEA (good luck with that) would lead to financial institutions quitting the city of London en masse (and if you think this would be a good thing for the economy, then feel free to explain your reasons why so we can all have a bloody good laugh at them).

Even Boris knows this would be economic suicide. But if he doesn't take this path, there will be riots. This is the choice that now awaits the next PM – and explains why David Cameron quit rather than make it himself.

Adam

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #355 on: June 27, 2016, 10:43:39 AM »
We have our nation back. We must fight against all who attempt to overturn democracy. They ask what is our plan? It is to replace the European laws that we wish to continue with, by passing acts to make it so, and to reject those which we do not wish to continue with. Then we get on with governing the nation. I think that will do for now. What we are offered is blood, toil, tears and sweat (apologies to Sir Winston), but we will emerge into the sunlight of the Britain (historically England) that has been our way of life for the best part of a thousand years. We have always opposed the overpowering force of the strongest power in Europe by backing the second strongest. This way, we keep Europe under control, although Louis XIV, Napoleon and Hitler temporarily gave us problems.

I fear that any attempt to overturn a democratic decision, by whatever means, will result in blood letting on a level that has not been seen in our nation certainly since the act of settlement, and probably much longer. We must move forward and educate the younger generation who cannot remember what it means to be in charge of our own country, and do business with the rest of the world (including Europe). If we have decent products and services to sell, the world will buy. Don't let anyone convince you that the vote was a mistake. It was the saving of a nation, and I have the temerity to suggest, the saving of the 21st Century World.

I don't know how old you are, but I'm not sure if that country as you remember it ever really existed. It's natural to always look back at the past with rose tinted glasses. Certainly in my studies of history and reading literature from the time, things weren't all that great.

Even if that place you remember so fondly did exist, it doesn't any more, we live in a completely different world to the one we did 50 years ago. We can either choose to embrace that and be a major player, or we can go off and bury our heads in the sand.

The world is a global place now and, although a still a great nation, we are not the great power we once were. The Aneeicans, the Chinese, and now the EU, may listen to us but in the end they will do what is in their own best interests and we will be powerless to stop them. As part of the EU, we were a strong influence within a large block of nations and had a great deal more collective bargaining power.

We have to look forwards not backwards if we are going to continue to be a great nation.

I heard the 70s were great. Our economy - based on mining and the manufacturing of terrible cars - generated so much wealth that we were able to go down to a three day working week!

Maxross

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #356 on: June 27, 2016, 10:49:57 AM »
The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!

Ferret

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #357 on: June 27, 2016, 11:31:21 AM »
I heard the 70s were great. Our economy - based on mining and the manufacturing of terrible cars..........

My "terrible" 70's car is still going strong.  Although got to agree that you don't see many Marinas, Allegros or Maxis around these days.

green hats mate

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #358 on: June 27, 2016, 11:54:25 AM »
The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!

In 2016  a civil war commenced on Pilgrim Patter based on lies by politicians and speculation from "experts " :)

Maxross

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #359 on: June 27, 2016, 12:09:16 PM »
The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!

In 2016  a civil war commenced on Pilgrim Patter based on lies by politicians and speculation from "experts " :)

Why do you keep putting experts in inverted commas? I know the answer of course, it's an attempt to try and belittle anyone who's studied the facts and produces an opinion that differs from your own. It's a bit silly isn't it?