O/T In or out

[Adam]

Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
Secondly, apparently young people are moaning that older people have "taken their future"
I ask them "would you want to walk through a minefield first or second"?
We've been through it....

Little doubt that they grey vote made a big contribution at Boston ,  maybe someone (maybe Adam) can explain why us present day oldies got it all  wrong and those only just entering adulthood seem to know the answers to a very complex emerging part our history , a subject even the experts disagree on .   

If there was  another referendum what action could be taken to get the correct outcome .

  1 .  Ban the over 60s voting

  2    Declare the negative vote the winner .      i.e .   in  52out    48 stay vote,  declare the 48 vote the winner .

I feel it's the wrong decision because it has put at peril Britain's place in the world's biggest single common market - which in 2016 our economy is deeply intertwined with and dependent upon. This vote has led to the resignation of a very competent Prime Minister - to be replaced by either Boris Johnson (who clearly didn't actually want or expect this result and has no clue whatsoever what to do about it), or Jeremy Corbyn (who has no clue whatsoever about anything, at all). The second largest constituent nation of the UK is likely to accede (who can blame them?), and we are faced with either erecting a land border around our fourth nation or it also acceding. Oh, I may also shortly lose the right to live and work freely across 27 different nations - should I have wished to do so - and many of my friends from abroad are considering leaving the country. The impact of 'making our own laws' is actually that we have to rewrite 40 years of legislation over boring but essential things like product standards - basically replacing European red tape with British red tape and ensuring that businesses have to meet two sets rather than one if they wish to sell abroad.

A year ago Great Britain had the fastest growing economy in the Western world. Now we have no leadership,fewer friends and no bloody clue where we'll be in five years time.

Happy Independence Day!

[Maxross]

One thing that is really bugging me about this thread is the sort of benign dismissal of young people as if they don't know anything or their opinion isn't worth anything because they don't have enough life experience. It's pretty patronising to be honest. I hate to see anyone dismissed based on age, it's knowledge and understanding that is important.

Young people have been some of the worst hit in recent years. They are faced with a job market made up by low paying/low skill jobs and zero hour contracts. If they choose to go to uni they are hit with fees of £9,000 per year on top of living expenses. House prices have rocketed which prices a lot of them out of the market at forces them to rent, where they got totally ripped off. It's pretty bleak and I can see where they're angry.

When older people try to tell me they've "seen it all before" I'm always reminded of the lyrics of that old Baz Luhrman track....

"Be careful whose advice you buy but be patient with those who supply it
Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of fishing the past
From the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts
And recycling it for more than it's worth"

[Ed Kandi]

  2    Declare the negative vote the winner .      i.e .   in  52out    48 stay vote,  declare the 48 vote the winner .

Yes the intellectual gulag are pushing to make this an in/in referendum.


In an ideal world Cameron would have started sorting out plan b when he first offered us the chance to vote on this.
Shows a staggering level of arrogance and stupidity to offer the  plebiscite and then do bugger all for a  contingency plan. The ultimate piss take by the elite to assume that they could just frighten us plebs into their way of thinking by wheeling out 'experts' and establishment celebrities on a daily basis. It worked for them in the Scottish Referendum but as soon as Obama stuck his oar in it seemed unlikely that those tactics were going to work.
That's when Cameron should have levelled with us.  If he'd have made a statement along the lines of  "Listen guys, I know I offered you an in/out referendum but it was token gesture politics, and in reality, if we vote out we're fecked" well who knows, the general public might've respected his honesty and taken notice.
He's still at it now, resigning and then saying he's not going until October, giving enough time for an alternative outcome to a Brexit to be formulated by his establishment cronies.

Cameron should be removed to the Tower and Liam Fox brought in as an interim measure to get on with invoking Article 50 and sorting out the mess left behind.  Germany are already asking about trade with the UK after we leave and there will be plenty more in the queue. 

[Maxross]

Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
Secondly, apparently young people are moaning that older people have "taken their future"
I ask them "would you want to walk through a minefield first or second"?
We've been through it....

In recent months when speaking to local OAPs,  they like myself  put the future of their children/ grandchildren first and foremost when considering which way to vote .  They said it would mean voting out .   

By ignoring what they wanted and deciding that they knew better?

Well, maybe the young (and I include myself in this) could argue the converse, that we voted for what we thought was in your best interests. Like a successful economy with lots of young immigrants paying taxes to fund your pensions, maintain the NHS (which you are much more likely to need than us) and working as care workers?

[howmanynames2pick]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html

And an interesting view from an Italian.....

http://youtu.be/2Futxf1U2f8

Tbh it's like religion.....it's what you believe, what you feel. Only hindsight will deliver the answers.

I saw a Facebook post earlier today where Eu workers here are planning a General strike on .july 4th....
I wonder what will happen there?
I personally don't want to see a mass exodus of them....just some sort of regulated flow both ways.
What would happen to them wasn't discussed during the debates (or did I miss something)

[Pete Brooksbank]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html
What would happen to them wasn't discussed during the debates (or did I miss something)

Nothing will happen to them. Those already here will never be told to leave, otherwise Aunt Bettie who's retired to Spain or Mark Isaac who has a house in France can expect the same treatment, and that won't be acceptable will it?

The more likely scenario is that our economy tanks and all the migrants who haven't laid down substantial roots bugger off to better performing nations, leaving a massive labour shortage in Lincolnshire (it's worth remembering local landowners thought a Brexit vote would be a disaster for the Boston local economy - see the John Harris film from last year).

[Maxross]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html

And an interesting view from an Italian.....

http://youtu.be/2Futxf1U2f8

Tbh it's like religion.....it's what you believe, what you feel. Only hindsight will deliver the answers.

I saw a Facebook post earlier today where Eu workers here are planning a General strike on .july 4th....
I wonder what will happen there?
I personally don't want to see a mass exodus of them....just some sort of regulated flow both ways.
What would happen to them wasn't discussed during the debates (or did I miss something)

It's an interesting video. It doesn't really chime with the reality for me though. I've worked for a couple of small to medium engineering firms in the recent past that were selling products via the common market. I would imagine right now they will worrying what this means for them as that was basically their core business. Additionally we were selling products to China, Malysia and South Korea without any blocks put in by the EU. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't detected any issue whereby EU membership inhibits trade with country's outside the block?

[Dipdodah]

From another prospective, these are interesting facts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9cLwoTkWes

[green hats mate]

Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
Secondly, apparently young people are moaning that older people have "taken their future"
I ask them "would you want to walk through a minefield first or second"?
We've been through it....

Little doubt that they grey vote made a big contribution at Boston ,  maybe someone (maybe Adam) can explain why us present day oldies got it all  wrong and those only just entering adulthood seem to know the answers to a very complex emerging part our history , a subject even the experts disagree on .   

If there was  another referendum what action could be taken to get the correct outcome .

  1 .  Ban the over 60s voting

  2    Declare the negative vote the winner .      i.e .   in  52out    48 stay vote,  declare the 48 vote the winner .

I feel it's the wrong decision because it has put at peril Britain's place in the world's biggest single common market - which in 2016 our economy is deeply intertwined with and dependent upon. This vote has led to the resignation of a very competent Prime Minister - to be replaced by either Boris Johnson (who clearly didn't actually want or expect this result and has no clue whatsoever what to do about it), or Jeremy Corbyn (who has no clue whatsoever about anything, at all). The second largest constituent nation of the UK is likely to accede (who can blame them?), and we are faced with either erecting a land border around our fourth nation or it also acceding. Oh, I may also shortly lose the right to live and work freely across 27 different nations - should I have wished to do so - and many of my friends from abroad are considering leaving the country. The impact of 'making our own laws' is actually that we have to rewrite 40 years of legislation over boring but essential things like product standards - basically replacing European red tape with British red tape and ensuring that businesses have to meet two sets rather than one if they wish to sell abroad.

A year ago Great Britain had the fastest growing economy in the Western world. Now we have no leadership,fewer friends and no bloody clue where we'll be in five years time.

Happy Independence Day!

Odd that you keep giving us long sermon,s about a very complex subject yet when I put a simple question to you that only needs a short answer you fail to respond !!!   what is your response to my clear question ?

Judging on your comments re Cameron I think it,s time to change your spin doctor .

[Adam]

Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
Secondly, apparently young people are moaning that older people have "taken their future"
I ask them "would you want to walk through a minefield first or second"?
We've been through it....

Little doubt that they grey vote made a big contribution at Boston ,  maybe someone (maybe Adam) can explain why us present day oldies got it all  wrong and those only just entering adulthood seem to know the answers to a very complex emerging part our history , a subject even the experts disagree on .   

If there was  another referendum what action could be taken to get the correct outcome .

  1 .  Ban the over 60s voting

  2    Declare the negative vote the winner .      i.e .   in  52out    48 stay vote,  declare the 48 vote the winner .

I feel it's the wrong decision because it has put at peril Britain's place in the world's biggest single common market - which in 2016 our economy is deeply intertwined with and dependent upon. This vote has led to the resignation of a very competent Prime Minister - to be replaced by either Boris Johnson (who clearly didn't actually want or expect this result and has no clue whatsoever what to do about it), or Jeremy Corbyn (who has no clue whatsoever about anything, at all). The second largest constituent nation of the UK is likely to accede (who can blame them?), and we are faced with either erecting a land border around our fourth nation or it also acceding. Oh, I may also shortly lose the right to live and work freely across 27 different nations - should I have wished to do so - and many of my friends from abroad are considering leaving the country. The impact of 'making our own laws' is actually that we have to rewrite 40 years of legislation over boring but essential things like product standards - basically replacing European red tape with British red tape and ensuring that businesses have to meet two sets rather than one if they wish to sell abroad.

A year ago Great Britain had the fastest growing economy in the Western world. Now we have no leadership,fewer friends and no bloody clue where we'll be in five years time.

Happy Independence Day!

Odd that you keep giving us long sermon,s about a very complex subject yet when I put a simple question to you that only needs a short answer you fail to respond !!!   what is your response to my clear question ?

Judging on your comments re Cameron I think it,s time to change your spin doctor .

Your question was why do I think Brexit is the wrong call. My response was that - amongst other things - the country is now utterly rudderless with no effective government, our economy is going to be deeply wounded, the United Kingdom itself is likely to break up and I may lose the freedom to live and work across Europe. If you still can't digest that, then I'm sorry - it's not possible to simplify it any more. Or perhaps you think these are good things?

And 'long sermon'? It was one paragraph...

[green hats mate]

One thing that is really bugging me about this thread is the sort of benign dismissal of young people as if they don't know anything or their opinion isn't worth anything because they don't have enough life experience. It's pretty patronising to be honest. I hate to see anyone dismissed based on age, it's knowledge and understanding that is important.

Young people have been some of the worst hit in recent years. They are faced with a job market made up by low paying/low skill jobs and zero hour contracts. If they choose to go to uni they are hit with fees of £9,000 per year on top of living expenses. House prices have rocketed which prices a lot of them out of the market at forces them to rent, where they got totally ripped off. It's pretty bleak and I can see where they're angry.

When older people try to tell me they've "seen it all before" I'm always reminded of the lyrics of that old Baz Luhrman track....

"Be careful whose advice you buy but be patient with those who supply it
Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of fishing the past
From the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts
And recycling it for more than it's worth"

Agree with the above response apart from it taking my statement out of context .   Yes , I do think the OAP vote is a valuable and needed vote in a democratic referendum ,  after all many OAP,s are active creating hundreds of thousands of jobs . 
Exactly like you Maxross I would encourage any young voter to scrutinise politics and get out and vote .
I don,t know what part of the world you live but how do you find the political interest of the young ?.

At the last election I went to almost all the hustling meetings of Matt Warman ,  the turnout was usually between 8 to 15 people .  I can,t recall many under 40s can,t  never mind under 21s .

At his last Referendum meet held at the Sack Store the turn-out was 10 ,  I think its safe t say ALL were offer 60 .  No hand vote was needed as it was clear all were outers ,  even what I would claim as the leading Tory activist in the east midlands over the last 40 years was an outer .

Time the young got stuck in .

[howmanynames2pick]

At his last Referendum meet held at the Sack Store the turn-out was 10 ,  I think its safe t say ALL were offer 60 .  No hand vote was needed as it was clear all were outers , 
Sack store? Ironic?
Despite overwhelming out voters in his constituency he went the other way....fair enough with me.
As for the"young"question.....maybe those of us us who voted in and saw what it had become (certainly nothing to what WE were sold at the time) realised our mistake and voted out to benefit the younger ones?

[Ed Kandi]

That's interesting re Matt Warman, echoes of what's happening with Corbyn.
We have a local MP who is out of touch with the views of the majority of his constituents...it will be difficult for the local rag, and the council leader to put a positive spin on that one 

[York Street Pilgrim]

I can't believe all this talk of a second referendum. What would that cost the public purse? If the government chose not to act in the wishes of the majority, wouldn't that mean we no longer lived in a democracy?

Let's look at it another way. A lot of people were unhappy with a football result in North Ferriby a few weeks ago. The outcome was the outcome. But if enough of the dissenters signed a petition to the league, could a replay of the playoff be ordered to take place?

[Ernie100]

All this gubbings about the young not being able to travel or work in the EU, as regard travel, ask a youngster where they would like to travel their answer would most likely be Australia, Asia and America, all need visas and passports, and as for work, "If you've got the tools you'll get the job".