O/T In or out

[green hats mate]

Seen the "highlights" of todays PMQs , whatever the outcome on June 23rd ,

GOD HELP US .

[Maxross]

One question which an answer from the in or outers would be welcome .

With the EU overwhelmingly seeming desperate for us to stay in,  what was the hapless Cameron doing coming away with such a P*ss poor  deal ?

I totally agree.  It's essentially down to the fact, in my opinion, that Cameron is one of the most incompetent prime ministers we've had in living memory.  He went out to renegotiate for a deal to appease his back benchers, rather than improve the EU or the U.K.'s position within it.  He didn't even succeed in what he set out to do.  Essentially he played a weak hand incredibly poorly.

 I totally agree with your response ,  many remain votes will be lost because many genuinely  fears that a remain vote will see Cameron (and us) taken to the cleaners .

It's a strange paradox though, that if you say that a country like the U.K. will be worse off trying to negotiate it's own deals in the world you are accused of "talking down Great Britain".  Whereas if you suggest that Britain, as one of the EU's big three should be able to action change from within people say "nobody listens to us".  We have a lot more power within Europe than we think and if by some miracle the country votes remain, we should start using to it make positive reform within the EU.  I'm sick of seeing the whole debate and policy dictated by the squabbles of the Tory party.

[Maxross]

One question which an answer from the in or outers would be welcome .

With the EU overwhelmingly seeming desperate for us to stay in,  what was the hapless Cameron doing coming away with such a P*ss poor  deal ?

I totally agree.  It's essentially down to the fact, in my opinion, that Cameron is one of the most incompetent prime ministers we've had in living memory.  He went out to renegotiate for a deal to appease his back benchers, rather than improve the EU or the U.K.'s position within it.  He didn't even succeed in what he set out to do.  Essentially he played a weak hand incredibly poorly.

Agreed. I also think on top of this that he felt relatively complacent and had no idea how much of an appetite there was in the rest of the country for Brexit (and however much I wish to remain, it's certainly been an eye-opener seeing just how many people have been readily persuaded by the leave arguments). So he probably didn't realise just how important that re-negotiation actually was, and therefore didn't fight for the best deal. Certainly, even remainers were disappointed by it.

My guess is now that Cameron is bitterly regretting even holding this referendum in the first place. It is highly unlikely he will remain as PM should the vote go against him, and the fall-out is going to be enormous. There's certainly a whiff of defeatism around the remain camp now.

Yeah I totally agree.  I think he saw the referendum as something he could comfortably win and so put it in their manifesto as a tactical attempt to win over a few of the UKIPers.  Clearly it's spectacularly backfired in his face as the signs are pretty ominous now for remain.  I can't see how he can carry on as PM if Remain win either though, his leadership has been badly compromised by the campaign. 

It's interesting as I did hear the other day that the Tory Remain insiders had said that the big lesson the leadership had learned during the Scottish In/Out campaign was that project fear worked.  I thought that was a strange reading of the situation since it was a much closer result than anticipated and that the Scot's voters brutally punished Labour for being involved at the GE. Personally I think it's fairly clear that project fear was counter productive in Scotland and has been counter productive in the EU Referendum.

[Mickey Nuttells Hair]

Very much along the lines of the 'don't believe a word of it' is this from Boris - whichever way the wind blows!
https://t.co/s08o9nTl8s

In short he is out for his own personal gain (shot at being PM) so the guy is a complete bandwagon jumper.  With Gove just in behind to pick up the scraps.

I absolutely detest how politicians and business leaders alike are playing so fast and loose with the economy and the faith voters have in democracy to either climb the greasy pole or get headlines.  Sadly not surprised by it though.

[green hats mate]

One question which an answer from the in or outers would be welcome .

With the EU overwhelmingly seeming desperate for us to stay in,  what was the hapless Cameron doing coming away with such a P*ss poor  deal ?

I totally agree.  It's essentially down to the fact, in my opinion, that Cameron is one of the most incompetent prime ministers we've had in living memory.  He went out to renegotiate for a deal to appease his back benchers, rather than improve the EU or the U.K.'s position within it.  He didn't even succeed in what he set out to do.  Essentially he played a weak hand incredibly poorly.

Agreed. I also think on top of this that he felt relatively complacent and had no idea how much of an appetite there was in the rest of the country for Brexit (and however much I wish to remain, it's certainly been an eye-opener seeing just how many people have been readily persuaded by the leave arguments). So he probably didn't realise just how important that re-negotiation actually was, and therefore didn't fight for the best deal. Certainly, even remainers were disappointed by it.

My guess is now that Cameron is bitterly regretting even holding this referendum in the first place. It is highly unlikely he will remain as PM should the vote go against him, and the fall-out is going to be enormous. There's certainly a whiff of defeatism around the remain camp now.

Yeah I totally agree.  I think he saw the referendum as something he could comfortably win and so put it in their manifesto as a tactical attempt to win over a few of the UKIPers.  Clearly it's spectacularly backfired in his face as the signs are pretty ominous now for remain.  I can't see how he can carry on as PM if Remain win either though, his leadership has been badly compromised by the campaign. 

It's interesting as I did hear the other day that the Tory Remain insiders had said that the big lesson the leadership had learned during the Scottish In/Out campaign was that project fear worked.  I thought that was a strange reading of the situation since it was a much closer result than anticipated and that the Scot's voters brutally punished Labour for being involved at the GE. Personally I think it's fairly clear that project fear was counter productive in Scotland and has been counter productive in the EU Referendum.

On the day the referendum was announced  I think a vote would have been 60/40 to remain , by sheer arrogance and total incompetence Cameron is on the brink of turning this into a leave verdict .   The probable factor to get the final swing in voting is that many will use it as a anti Cameron vote .

O k ,apart from his scare tactics , we,ve heard from Cameron and fellow  politicians , journalist etc warning against entering into the unknown (exit EU ).

Just for hope and comfort I offer this thought ......
Politicians and academics offer little but words
What has  but the GREAT  in Great Britain is  those businessmen, explorers ,scientists ,medics etc who have had  the bottle and stepped into the unknown .        They will do it again .

[Ed Kandi]

On the day the referendum was announced  I think a vote would have been 60/40 to remain , by sheer arrogance and total incompetence Cameron is on the brink of turning this into a leave verdict .   The probable factor to get the final swing in voting is that many will use it as a anti Cameron vote .

O k ,apart from his scare tactics , we,ve heard from Cameron and fellow  politicians , journalist etc warning against entering into the unknown (exit EU ).

Just for hope and comfort I offer this thought ......
Politicians and academics offer little but words
What has  but the GREAT  in Great Britain is  those businessmen, explorers ,scientists ,medics etc who have had  the bottle and stepped into the unknown .        They will do it again .

I think you're spot on with your 60/40 assessment at the start of all this GHM...I never imagined that we could ever get out of the EU, I still think it's unlikely...someone once said ' If your vote could change anything then they wouldn't have given it to you '. I've always had the feeling that this whole process was just an elaborate charade,  a bit like Cameron's attempt to renegotiate our EU deal,  but it's all run away from the controlling powers and there now appears to be a chance of winning the vote, but its still too close to call.
Another possibile outcome of course is that the country votes for a Brexit,  the government puts forward legislation to leave the EU, and Parliament votes it down thus precipitating a general election in which only UKIP campaign for Brexit.  Ipso facto this country stays in the EU despite the wishes of the population, and becomes the laughing stock of the world.
A horrible possibility,  and one that would cause large scale civil unrest,  but this is an eventuality that is already being discussed.
The in/out referendum could go down in history as the in/in referendum  :dan

[green hats mate]

Thanks to Cameron and Osbourne come June 23rd whatever the outcome of the vote we will be established as the laughing stock of the world .

Anyone known what happens if the vote is only a few thousand (very small in referendum terms ) majority , can a recount be demanded ?

[Adam]

Very much along the lines of the 'don't believe a word of it' is this from Boris - whichever way the wind blows!
https://t.co/s08o9nTl8s

In short he is out for his own personal gain (shot at being PM) so the guy is a complete bandwagon jumper.  With Gove just in behind to pick up the scraps.

I absolutely detest how politicians and business leaders alike are playing so fast and loose with the economy and the faith voters have in democracy to either climb the greasy pole or get headlines.  Sadly not surprised by it though.

As a general rule, I think the 'all politicians are self-interested careerists' and 'Tories hate everyone but the rich' lines are grossly exaggerated.

But Boris really is a special case - a Category A charlatan.  At least Gove and Farage are just good old fashioned fruitloops.

Will be interesting to see just how permanent any leave vote is. If leave get 51% and the economy promptly goes into free fall, I imagine the polls would quickly swing 60/40 back to remain. There's then a question of if a second referendum is appropriate. I guess if Cameron has been replaced by Boris by then there is no prospect of that actually being held.

[Pete Brooksbank]

As a general rule, I think the 'all politicians are self-interested careerists' and 'Tories hate everyone but the rich' lines are grossly exaggerated.

I would say this is spot on for the 'acceptable' face of the Tory party, the Ken Clarkes and such like, who occupy the right side of the centre. There ARE some decent Tories and the mainstream of the party tends to reflect this, although will never be popular with anyone left of centre.

However we all know that party frequently has internal battles to keep the truly nasty backbenchers - the horrible oiks who really do despise the weak and poor - under control, with varying degrees of success, and moderate leaders are forever having to make deals and compromises with these people.

The problem Cameron and Osborne have now is that they've unleashed a monster and empowered the more unpalatable sections of their own party, who could well be running the country in the event of Brexit.

We'll be getting all misty eyed with fond nostalgia for Nick Clegg and the coalition then.

[Mickey Nuttells Hair]

At least Gove and Farage are just good old fashioned fruitloops.

Made me chuckle 

Then I realised they actually are being taken seriously by a significant amount of the population. 

[green hats mate]

Both parties in utter chaos  after June 23rd ,   the country will be like a rudderless ship whatever the outcome of the vote .

Historically both parties address the situation like this in a different manner .
Labour have a good old fashioned public punch-up .
Tories as referred to by  Pete B in above post are great exponents of hypocrisy and make unsustainable agreements .     Many tory MP s will from June 23rd spend much time looking over their shoulder .  Older one,s on here  will recall Sir Richard Body a former Boston & Skegness MP and the infamous Bastards of the party .

[Pete Brooksbank]

Yes, and I think the problem for people like me and many others in the Remain camp is that while I detest what the backbench Tories want to do to our country, Labour offer no credible alternative, aside from waving placards about ‘no austerity’ as if that’s meant to fix everything.

Corbyn is a ridiculous caricature. We’re in the midst of the greatest referendum of our lifetime and the only half-hearted argument this elbow-patch plank is offering is based upon half-witted support for remaining in the EU under the guise of working alongside ‘socialist governments and trade unions’.

Eh? Which socialist governments, Jeremy? More to the point, socialism and trade unions are so far down the priority list of normal people that I sometimes wonder if he was elected as Labour leader as some kind of reality TV show prank.

The world is facing great threats: the rise of an ugly brand of nationalism, an America heading into some kind of ‘cold’ civil war, a chaotic Middle East, a debt-ridden EU, climate change, a belligerent Russia, an unprecedented refugee crisis, ISIL, and North Ferriby United.

And what’s Corbyn’s answer to all this? Trade unions? Really? Does he think people in the decimated industrial heartlands of the north wake up every day to an increasingly bleak future and think: “You know what would sort this derelict ghost town? More socialism!”…?

What a bloody mess.

[Maxross]

I'm sure by now many of you will have heard about the senseless murder of Labour MP Jo Cox today. I think whatever party or opinions you hold, we can all agree that this a complete tragedy for her young family. RIP.

[green hats mate]

I'm sure by now many of you will have heard about the senseless murder of Labour MP Jo Cox today. I think whatever party or opinions you hold, we can all agree that this a complete tragedy for her young family. RIP.

This afternoon I removed a post which I submitted this morning , with this tragic murder is became inappropriate .

So sad and thoughts are with the children and husband .

[howmanynames2pick]

Yes, and I think the problem for people like me and many others in the Remain camp is that while I detest what the backbench Tories want to do to our country, Labour offer no credible alternative, aside from waving placards about ‘no austerity’ as if that’s meant to fix everything.

Corbyn is a ridiculous caricature. We’re in the midst of the greatest referendum of our lifetime and the only half-hearted argument this elbow-patch plank is offering is based upon half-witted support for remaining in the EU under the guise of working alongside ‘socialist governments and trade unions’.

Eh? Which socialist governments, Jeremy? More to the point, socialism and trade unions are so far down the priority list of normal people that I sometimes wonder if he was elected as Labour leader as some kind of reality TV show prank.

The world is facing great threats: the rise of an ugly brand of nationalism, an America heading into some kind of ‘cold’ civil war, a chaotic Middle East, a debt-ridden EU, climate change, a belligerent Russia, an unprecedented refugee crisis, ISIL, and North Ferriby United.

And what’s Corbyn’s answer to all this? Trade unions? Really? Does he think people in the decimated industrial heartlands of the north wake up every day to an increasingly bleak future and think: “You know what would sort this derelict ghost town? More socialism!”…?

What a bloody mess.

Aptly put