O/T In or out

[Artemis]

So we have just 9 days before we vote to remain part of Germany.

(two world wars &  Germany failed,  this time it's takeover by stealth).

 8) 8)

[Pete Brooksbank]

How exactly are Germany executing a "takeover by stealth" within the constraints of a democratic EU Parliament (and for all the bluster about 'unelected' bureaucrats, the EU IS democratic)?

If Germany is economically strong, it's because it has done pretty much the polar opposite of us over the last 30 years. And if you think leaving the EU is going suddenly restore British industry to where it was sixty years ago, you're delusional. The Tories despise the working class - always have done, always will - and the very people now urging Brexit are the very people who can't wait to get their hands on what's left and sell it all off, along with the NHS, the BBC and whatever else they can lay their hands on before people realise they've been conned.

If course, they're setting themselves up for an ugly fall, as when Brexit fails to bring about the improvements they're claiming it will, and indeed makes things even worse, there's going to be all kinds of ugly bother - but by then their ideologically-driven violence against the fabric of British public life will have caused irreversible damage.

And Scotland will have left the Union and be back in the EU, meaning we'll have an actual border between England and Scotland.

And migration will still be high, because our economy requires it.

But public spending will have been axed even further as the 'new' Tory government imposes further cuts, so the queues at our local hospitals will be even worse - conveniently setting up the dismantling of a health service the leading Brexit advocates loathe.

Who do we blame then?

I hope we will remain and reform the EU from within. But I am almost resigned to the fact that we are heading for Brexit. It's almost futile trying to convince people to change their mind by now - the damage has been done by successive governments failing to invest properly in areas like Boston hit hardest by increased pressure on services, and also by the dispiriting willingness of pro-EU people to dismiss the concerns of people in places like Boston as the bigoted patter of small-town racists.

What a mess.

[green hats mate]

A heated debate without getting heated
Dyson and Joe Bamford say out
Sugar and Branson say in
Half of them are wrong......

The whole idea of the EU is a good one...however it's got out of hand.
One the "big houses" packs up and travels to Strasbourg once a month for a vote...waste of time and money (the Paxo tv show)

As you rightly say vested interests are a major stumbling block.
I've tried to work out the ones with guys mentioned earlier....not plainly evident

Trying to change from within is virtually impossible.
Vested interests and corruption being major stumbling blocks.

We should commend and thank A K and Maxross for the time consuming research on this subject and their lengthy evidence submitted on this thread .    Sadly from these submissions most of us are even more confused .
However this guy Howmanynames keeps posting is own off the cuff observations and not using so called "facts " given by "independent "   bodies .

How ironic then that this particular post is the only one that has inspired me to decide which way to vote .

Dyson ?    Backed Lincolnshire and its economy by investing  £millions in the county .

Sugar ?      Surely made a big contribution to Boston becoming the obesity capital of England,  and 
                rise in diabetes .

Branston ?   A man known for a pickle  ,   something we can identify Dodgy Dave and hopeless Ossy with .

                   A clean sweep for Dyson and the OUT VOTE . 

[howmanynames2pick]

Not seen any JCB's in Wyberton yet .....
Seeing more and more Beeswax  though across the county

[Ed Kandi]

The pressure on the Remain campaign is showing, as they crank up Project Fear to new levels of scaremongering, Juncker gets drunker, and George Osborne is resorting to finger-in-the-air, think-of-a-number tactics and threatening us with an emergency budget if we vote to leave 
Sorry George, you should have got that one in earlier,  nobody believes anything they hear when they see that your lips are moving now   :dan

[Ed Kandi]

Rolls Royce have joined in with the Fear Project today, saying that the threat of a Brexit is making them consider relocating their new production facility elsewhere.
They forget to mention that the company is already struggling and has been for several years,  with 5 profit warnings in the last 2 years - its convenient to blame it all on Brexit though and not the EU trade restrictions and regulations that hold existing businesses back on the Global market and seriously restrict start-up companies 

[Dipdodah]

Just an aside to in out debate.

Do you think the trouble in the Euros and anti English feeling will work in leaves favour?

[green hats mate]

Just an aside to in out debate.

Do you think the trouble in the Euros and anti English feeling will work in leaves favour?

May win leaves a few vote ,   but at the moment Dave & Osborne still appear to be LEAVES best vote winners .

[Maxross]

A heated debate without getting heated
Dyson and Joe Bamford say out
Sugar and Branson say in
Half of them are wrong......

The whole idea of the EU is a good one...however it's got out of hand.
One the "big houses" packs up and travels to Strasbourg once a month for a vote...waste of time and money (the Paxo tv show)

As you rightly say vested interests are a major stumbling block.
I've tried to work out the ones with guys mentioned earlier....not plainly evident

Trying to change from within is virtually impossible.
Vested interests and corruption being major stumbling blocks.

We should commend and thank A K and Maxross for the time consuming research on this subject and their lengthy evidence submitted on this thread .    Sadly from these submissions most of us are even more confused .
However this guy Howmanynames keeps posting is own off the cuff observations and not using so called "facts " given by "independent "   bodies .

How ironic then that this particular post is the only one that has inspired me to decide which way to vote .

Dyson ?    Backed Lincolnshire and its economy by investing  £millions in the county .

Sugar ?      Surely made a big contribution to Boston becoming the obesity capital of England,  and 
                rise in diabetes .

Branston ?   A man known for a pickle  ,   something we can identify Dodgy Dave and hopeless Ossy with .

                   A clean sweep for Dyson and the OUT VOTE .

I take it you are aware that Dyson wants to remain in the common market and he also wants to keep freedom of movement?  He also made 900 U.K. workers redundant in order to save costs.  He's also another flip/flop as it wasn't so long ago that he was saying it would be a disaster for U.K. business if we didn't join the Euro.  I'm not sure I would base my decision based on this guy's opinion if I'm honest.

His biggest investment in Lincolnshire so far is to buy lots of farm land, I've no problem with that but I'm not sure it can be demonstrated that has much benefit on the county in general.

[Maxross]

As mentioned by most voters the advice given by "experts" is contradictory .
Examining what the politicians tell us is easier .
For starters we know  Dave,s "no ifs , no buts, pledge on immigration  is in tatters .
Dave after a recent spell of ignoring the subject , but it back on his agenda in a recent interview .
When mentioning the various benefit cuts to immigrants he described them for what they are ,   PROPOSIALS .
Now the reason some Tory MP,s are shy of backing  Cameron is because they know after 5years  of DWP so called benefit reforms overseen by the government and IDS the system  created is in utter chaos causing hardship to the vulnerable .   They fear that the DWP  would not be fit to deliver further complex changes .

More tellingly many fear these Proposals will not be implemented as we fear Dave,s will be  stitched up by the EU .

Firstly, if an expert is offering "advice" run a mile, he's probably a snake oil salesman!  What you are interested in is information, a good expert will provide you with accurate information and let you make your own mind up. Most of the information provided by experts that is out there isn't all that contradictory at all, most strongly supports "in".  Don't take my word for it though, go out and have a look for yourself.

If you are going to politicians for information you are going to, for want of a better term, have your pants pulled down.  These guys are experts in twisting information to suit their agenda.  I usually follow the news bulletins, analysis shows like Newsnight and debates like Question Time fairly closely.  However, I have avoided all like the plague in recent weeks because frankly, they are all full of s***.  I haven't watched a single debate and I don't intend to either.

I'm not saying you shouldn't pay attention to them at all, some of it can be quite interesting.  What we are seeing in this debate at the moment is a split between two groups of elites.  Looking at who has come out on each side of the debate is quite interesting.  One thing that should become quickly obvious is that "out" is very much dominated by the ideological right wing.  You can see that from the politicians involved and you can see that from the newspapers which are backing them.  If you are voting out to reduce immigration, stop the NHS being privatised, gain greater democracy, reduce the power of big corporations etc then you are going to find yourself sorely disappointed after Brexit, as all these policies are very much consistent with free market economics   

[green hats mate]

One question which an answer from the in or outers would be welcome .

With the EU overwhelmingly seeming desperate for us to stay in,  what was the hapless Cameron doing coming away with such a P*ss poor  deal ?

[Maxross]

One question which an answer from the in or outers would be welcome .

With the EU overwhelmingly seeming desperate for us to stay in,  what was the hapless Cameron doing coming away with such a P*ss poor  deal ?

I totally agree.  It's essentially down to the fact, in my opinion, that Cameron is one of the most incompetent prime ministers we've had in living memory.  He went out to renegotiate for a deal to appease his back benchers, rather than improve the EU or the U.K.'s position within it.  He didn't even succeed in what he set out to do.  Essentially he played a weak hand incredibly poorly.

[green hats mate]

One question which an answer from the in or outers would be welcome .

With the EU overwhelmingly seeming desperate for us to stay in,  what was the hapless Cameron doing coming away with such a P*ss poor  deal ?

I totally agree.  It's essentially down to the fact, in my opinion, that Cameron is one of the most incompetent prime ministers we've had in living memory.  He went out to renegotiate for a deal to appease his back benchers, rather than improve the EU or the U.K.'s position within it.  He didn't even succeed in what he set out to do.  Essentially he played a weak hand incredibly poorly.

 I totally agree with your response ,  many remain votes will be lost because many genuinely  fears that a remain vote will see Cameron (and us) taken to the cleaners .

[Maxross]

Remain are resorting to ever more desperate tactics, wheeling out Gordon Brown hot on the heels of Blair and Major.
They keep banging on about tackling climate change together in the EU but far from producing cheap electricity, the EU has done the opposite with some of the highest costs worldwide as they are relying on expensive renewables.

Even the EU’s former commissioner for industry, Antonio Tajani has said that EU energy prices are creating an industrial massacre in industries, such as aluminium and steel.  Some of the large energy intensive industries have moved away from the EU to countries with cheaper energy prices, but unfortunately these countries have far less stringent emission regulations so the net global effect is to actually increase emissions...its all OK though because Remainians are only concerned with the EU, which they think exists in its own private ecosystem  :dan

You've touched on an interesting point here, I see from your previous post's earlier in the thread that you don't have much time for climate change or renewables.  I think it's fair to say that the overwhelming scientific consensus is that climate change is real and that we are contributing to it through the burning of fossil fuels.  You've also got to consider air quality which has well established effects on health.  I worked in this field for a while and saw the science, it was fairly compelling.  The final thing to consider is that fossil fuels only have a limited availability and also force us to rely on unstable regions such as the middle east.  Wars in these regions to gain control over these resources have led to many of the unsustainable refugee crises we are now seeing unfolding.

Renewables are a emerging technology and absolutely something that we should be trying to nurture and develop.  This argument kind of goes absolutely to the heart of what is wrong with our current economic structures.  The prevailing economic theory for at least the last 30 years goes that "greed is good" and that is the founding principle of everything.  This leads to a perverse set of incentives for business not to invest in what is best for society, but what is best for profit.  I don't want to overstate this, but left unchecked, this will unquestionably lead to the end of the human race eventually.

That's why I applaud the EU taking a lead on this and creating regulations which try to compel the use of renewables.  It has led to huge investment and research in this field and we are slowly starting to see some technologies which can provide sustainable power, theoretically forever.  The great thing for Europe, is that by taking the lead, we/they will lead the world in this technology and be able to sell it all over the world.  I'm not sure we should be throwing our lot in with those who would rather make a quick buck than provide energy stability for generations to come.

[Pete Brooksbank]

One question which an answer from the in or outers would be welcome .

With the EU overwhelmingly seeming desperate for us to stay in,  what was the hapless Cameron doing coming away with such a P*ss poor  deal ?

I totally agree.  It's essentially down to the fact, in my opinion, that Cameron is one of the most incompetent prime ministers we've had in living memory.  He went out to renegotiate for a deal to appease his back benchers, rather than improve the EU or the U.K.'s position within it.  He didn't even succeed in what he set out to do.  Essentially he played a weak hand incredibly poorly.

Agreed. I also think on top of this that he felt relatively complacent and had no idea how much of an appetite there was in the rest of the country for Brexit (and however much I wish to remain, it's certainly been an eye-opener seeing just how many people have been readily persuaded by the leave arguments). So he probably didn't realise just how important that re-negotiation actually was, and therefore didn't fight for the best deal. Certainly, even remainers were disappointed by it.

My guess is now that Cameron is bitterly regretting even holding this referendum in the first place. It is highly unlikely he will remain as PM should the vote go against him, and the fall-out is going to be enormous. There's certainly a whiff of defeatism around the remain camp now.