Author Topic: O/T In or out  (Read 398246 times)

Maxross

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #135 on: June 09, 2016, 09:54:49 AM »
I'm not really sure what you are trying to insinuate. I assume you think it is a pro remain ploy to register more young voters who will inevitably vote in?

If so, I think you are wrong. Firstly I think it's a misconception (and frankly patronising) to think that all young voters will blindly vote remain. I have many young friends who I have debated who would like to leave. Secondly, if your goal is only to win, then you can view this as a conspiracy.  However, if your goal is to make sure that anyone who wants to vote can vote, then surely it can only be seen as a positive? This is a huge decision for the country and I personally think that vote should be as democratic as possible. We don't want any vote questioned afterwards by people saying they couldn't vote.

I don't know if any of you have seen this already, but it is a good balanced piece on the EU by Martin Lewis (money saving expert)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/money/money-saving-expert-martin-lewis-8121255

Dipdodah

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #136 on: June 09, 2016, 09:55:00 AM »
Getting very dirty, better than Eastenders.

The leave vote are leading on three polls, you will now see the dirty tricks.

Sarah Wollaston, leaves Brexit  stating that £350 million per week going towards NHS is untrue.

Have I missed something?  I thought Brexit claimed that £350 per week paid to the EU could go towards the NHS, not would.

Also £350 million is not the net figure, which is lower than the figure shown.

Can someone show the true figure Britain pays?

Claims and counter claims, no wonder the don't knows are confused.
The older I get, the earlier it gets late

Dipdodah

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #137 on: June 09, 2016, 10:08:50 AM »
I'm not really sure what you are trying to insinuate. I assume you think it is a pro remain ploy to register more young voters who will inevitably vote in?

If so, I think you are wrong. Firstly I think it's a misconception (and frankly patronising) to think that all young voters will blindly vote remain. I have many young friends who I have debated who would like to leave. Secondly, if your goal is only to win, then you can view this as a conspiracy.  However, if your goal is to make sure that anyone who wants to vote can vote, then surely it can only be seen as a positive? This is a huge decision for the country and I personally think that vote should be as democratic as possible. We don't want any vote questioned afterwards by people saying they couldn't vote.

I don't know if any of you have seen this already, but it is a good balanced piece on the EU by Martin Lewis (money saving expert)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/money/money-saving-expert-martin-lewis-8121255

Fact:  The leave vote is by a big margin made up of middle aged mainly male voters.  The Labour party has been worried about this and last week took action to convert these to vote remain.  So on my working out, if you take these away it leaves the younger voter more likely to vote remain.  So the extension of the deadline was to accommodate the younger voter who had left it to the last minute to register.  Most of these are registering after coming of age.  Only repeating what was on TV news. So it makes sense that the extension helps the remain camp on the above information.
The older I get, the earlier it gets late

Pete Brooksbank

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #138 on: June 09, 2016, 11:57:38 AM »
Getting very dirty, better than Eastenders.

The leave vote are leading on three polls, you will now see the dirty tricks.

Sarah Wollaston, leaves Brexit  stating that £350 million per week going towards NHS is untrue.

Have I missed something?  I thought Brexit claimed that £350 per week paid to the EU could go towards the NHS, not would.

Also £350 million is not the net figure, which is lower than the figure shown.

Can someone show the true figure Britain pays?

Claims and counter claims, no wonder the don't knows are confused.

The potential for £350m a week to be channelled to the NHS in the event of a Brexit vote is a nonsense figure and has been known to be a nonsense figure for a while:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36040060

Fairfax

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #139 on: June 09, 2016, 01:20:07 PM »
It will probably help the remain campaign, but why are there so many idiots who chose to play Russian Roulette with their right to vote by playing a game of leaving it late?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 01:22:33 PM by Fairfax »

Maxross

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #140 on: June 09, 2016, 01:22:27 PM »
Getting very dirty, better than Eastenders.

The leave vote are leading on three polls, you will now see the dirty tricks.

Sarah Wollaston, leaves Brexit  stating that £350 million per week going towards NHS is untrue.

Have I missed something?  I thought Brexit claimed that £350 per week paid to the EU could go towards the NHS, not would.



Also £350 million is not the net figure, which is lower than the figure shown.

Can someone show the true figure Britain pays?

Claims and counter claims, no wonder the don't knows are confused.



The potential for £350m a week to be channelled to the NHS in the event of a Brexit vote is a nonsense figure and has been known to be a nonsense figure for a while:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36040060
 

The article Pete has posted absolutely demolishes the £350m per week myth. It has also been pointed out by the IFS that a contraction of just 0.6% in our economy would result in us losing more than the cost of membership - see here

http://www.ifs.org.uk/about/blog/346

The question is, why are these erroneous, discredited figures still being used? Even Nigel Farage refuses to use the £350m as he knows it to be wrong. Despite this, BoJo has it plastered across the side of his battle bus.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/27/uk-statistics-chief-vote-leave-350m-figure-misleading




« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 01:25:36 PM by Maxross »

Maxross

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #141 on: June 09, 2016, 01:34:30 PM »
I'm not really sure what you are trying to insinuate. I assume you think it is a pro remain ploy to register more young voters who will inevitably vote in?

If so, I think you are wrong. Firstly I think it's a misconception (and frankly patronising) to think that all young voters will blindly vote remain. I have many young friends who I have debated who would like to leave. Secondly, if your goal is only to win, then you can view this as a conspiracy.  However, if your goal is to make sure that anyone who wants to vote can vote, then surely it can only be seen as a positive? This is a huge decision for the country and I personally think that vote should be as democratic as possible. We don't want any vote questioned afterwards by people saying they couldn't vote.

I don't know if any of you have seen this already, but it is a good balanced piece on the EU by Martin Lewis (money saving expert)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/money/money-saving-expert-martin-lewis-8121255

Fact:  The leave vote is by a big margin made up of middle aged mainly male voters.  The Labour party has been worried about this and last week took action to convert these to vote remain.  So on my working out, if you take these away it leaves the younger voter more likely to vote remain.  So the extension of the deadline was to accommodate the younger voter who had left it to the last minute to register.  Most of these are registering after coming of age.  Only repeating what was on TV news. So it makes sense that the extension helps the remain camp on the above information.

So if vote leave are ahead in the polls, by a process of extrapolation we can conclude that the vast majority of those registered to vote are middle aged men?  Very democratic!  I'm being facetious of course, but seriously is it more important for you to win or to make sure that the vote is as democratic as possible by getting as many people registered to vote as possible?  Also, the registration period has been extended for everyone, not just the young so any of the hoardes of pro brexit middle aged men in the population can also get themselves registered if they wish.

Regarding Polls, we saw at the last general election how reliable they can be.  My feeling is that there are plenty of young people who are pro brexit and plenty of older people (including middle aged men) who are pro remain.

green hats mate

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #142 on: June 09, 2016, 04:20:42 PM »
I think it,s well established now that both sides are a pack of liars ,  all we,ve got to do now is decide which mob to vote for .

Ed Kandi

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #143 on: June 09, 2016, 05:25:09 PM »

Your first piece of disinformation:-


In or out, the NHS is screwed so long as we have a Tory government.  If you have any evidence to dispute that, go ahead and post it otherwise I will assume we all agree on that point.



The NHS is screwed if we remain in the EU, you can assume whatever you like, but once TTIP is in place the NHS will be sold off/privatised, the leaked Brussels papers make that quite clear.

If we vote out and a future UK government decides it wants to privatise the NHS, that government can be voted out by this country's electorate  8)





Your first piece of obfuscation:-


The timescale for these two eventualities is impossible to ascertain, but we know that in Germany for example, the millions of migrants that Merkel is intent on letting in  will be given EU passports if they stay,  and will therefore be able to move to any part of the EU that they choose.
The same will apply to the millions of Turkish citizens who Cameron is so keen to let in to the EU despite what he is now saying. 


The first thing I simply have to do is take issue with your use of the term “migrant” with regard the people whom Germany has taken in.  I assume you are talking about the 800,000 Syrians that ended up in Germany? They are Refugees.  What we are seeing here is a massive fallout from the wars that have been raging in Syria and Iraq.  If you wish to get into the why’s what’s and whatever’s that another discussion but in a nutshell, that entire region was completely destabilized by the U.S.’s (backed by Europe and particularly the UK) desire for regime change in several countries. You don’t have to look too far using Google to see the kind of devastation that they are fleeing and I think a bit of humanity wouldn’t go amiss.

So I think that’s the first issue we need to address which is to distinguish between economic migrant and refugees.  We have economic migrants which are those coming from the likes of Eastern Europe to create a better life for themselves and refugees who are entering bordering nations on an unprecedented scale to escape the devastation in their own nations.  I think Turkey as a nation is taking a heavy brunt from the latter and is looking to the west to help take some of the burden.

We can debate the rights and wrongs of all that, but again, that’s another more dedicated discussion.

You need to try to control those emotional thoughts that the word 'migrant' has triggered off in your mind.  My usage of the word is entirely correct in the context of the logistics of people moving from one country to another.
Your response is typical of the sort of garbage the BBC has subjected us to on their televised debates; whenever the subject of the logistical problems surrounding a mass influx of humanity into a country whose benefits systems are already at full stretch comes up, the Remain side always throws up this smokescreen of emotional claptrap.
The human cost of it all is obviously desperately sad, but if we all stand around wringing our hands and emoting everywhere we just divert attention away from the point of the discussion, which is obviously your intent  :'(

The point is that if we don't take back control of our borders and control the numbers entering our country our services will soon be at breaking point.



 

Another fine piece of obfuscation:-


Nobody knows the exact figures,  but we do know that millions of pounds are transferred to the EU every week - this fact has never been disputed,  the debates always end up in petty squabbles over the exact amount, how much we get back as a rebate etc, but these things don't make much difference, the fact is that millions of pounds that now leave our country every week will stay in this country if we vote to leave.


The petty squabbles over exactly how much are of the order of about £200m a week, so not exactly insignificant.  The main problem is though, that you have simplified the fee we are paying into a simple cash equation, i.e. we pay £xm per week for membership… and that it.  It’s a bit more complicated than that.  As I mentioned on a previous post, there are many unquantifiable benefits of being in the EU, the most obvious being access to the free market.  That means anything any company in this country makes can be sold anywhere in the EU without paying any kind of tariffs or duties.  Companies such as the Japanese car makers Nissan and Toyota build their cars in the UK, employing thousands, so that they can sell them throughout the EU without paying import tariffs. The UK is attractive to them because we are members of the EU and common market.

I could go on, but I think you will find that the common market gives our economy a large boost in terms of GDP (Gross Domestic Product) and also in terms of employment, tax receipts, etc. It has been pointed out by several economist that as little as a 0.7% drop in our GDP would result in us losing more than the cost of EU membership.  We may go it alone and be successful, but it is a jump into the unknown.  Therefore, it is s a risk economically and as yet, the Out campaign have failed to produce any kind of credible economic plan. It's all very well saying we'll negotiate, but for me, its too big a decision to be left down to these kind of back of a fag packet plans.
 

You've been watching too many TV debates, same old b*llocks every time  ???
Nobody knows the exact figures,  but we do know that millions of pounds are transferred to the EU every week - this fact has never been disputed,  the debates always end up in petty squabbles over the exact amount, how much we get back as a rebate etc, but these things don't make much difference, the fact is that millions of pounds that now leave our country every week will stay in this country if we vote to leave.

If it makes it any easier to have something empirical to wrap your mind around, the ONS gives the estimated  net UK contribution,  after rebates etc as £70 billion over the next five years.
You can debate the figure until you fall over backwards foaming at the mouth, nobody knows what it is, but we do know that we will save a couple of quid by voting out.





And finally, a nicely blended mix of disinformation, obfuscation, and just plain old dislike for members of the Leave campaign  :-


The other thing that we know for sure if we do leave the EU is that we will not have an unelected committee of faceless American and European corporate fat cats selling off our NHS.


How naïve, if we vote out that is precisely what we will end up with. Just look at the credentials of all of those involved in the Out campaign, even "man of the people" Nigel Farage is an ex banker.  If we isolate ourselves from Europe, we will be forced into an even cosier alliance with the Americans.  Check out the trade agreements they have already signed with Canada and Mexico and decide for yourself what kind of deal we will get on our own with BoJo at the helm. 



Whatever any future alliance with the Americans would be, we would still be in control of the future of our NHS as we can vote down any proposals to privatise it 
If we stay in, and TTIP is eventually ratified, there would be no hope of keeping it as Aneurin Bevan intended.
The leaked Brussels papers show that a TTIP committee would be appointed (not elected) and there would be no guarantee that the  UK would even be represented.  Assuming there was a UK representative and he or she argued for keeping the NHS, if he was successful, we would then be guilty of distorting the market and our government woud be open to a legal claim amounting to billions of pounds.

As far as the NHS goes, it is quite clear that if we stay in we will eventually lose it and have to pay for private healthcare;
whereas if we vote out we will always have the opportunity to vote to keep it    :police:

Dipdodah

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #144 on: June 09, 2016, 05:27:13 PM »
I think it,s well established now that both sides are a pack of liars ,  all we,ve got to do now is decide which mob to vote for .

Which ever way we vote, we will still get shafted.
The older I get, the earlier it gets late

Ed Kandi

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #145 on: June 09, 2016, 05:41:15 PM »
I'm not really sure what you are trying to insinuate. I assume you think it is a pro remain ploy to register more young voters who will inevitably vote in?

If so, I think you are wrong. Firstly I think it's a misconception (and frankly patronising) to think that all young voters will blindly vote remain. I have many young friends who I have debated who would like to leave. Secondly, if your goal is only to win, then you can view this as a conspiracy.  However, if your goal is to make sure that anyone who wants to vote can vote, then surely it can only be seen as a positive? This is a huge decision for the country and I personally think that vote should be as democratic as possible. We don't want any vote questioned afterwards by people saying they couldn't vote.

I don't know if any of you have seen this already, but it is a good balanced piece on the EU by Martin Lewis (money saving expert)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/money/money-saving-expert-martin-lewis-8121255

Fact:  The leave vote is by a big margin made up of middle aged mainly male voters.  The Labour party has been worried about this and last week took action to convert these to vote remain.  So on my working out, if you take these away it leaves the younger voter more likely to vote remain.  So the extension of the deadline was to accommodate the younger voter who had left it to the last minute to register.  Most of these are registering after coming of age.  Only repeating what was on TV news. So it makes sense that the extension helps the remain camp on the above information.


Makes you wonder why they extended it by 48 hours rather than the 2 hours it was out of action for.
It could have been reopened from 10pm until midnight on the following day.
It will be interesting to see if there is a judicial review application.  In judicial review applications you have to be seen to have acted 'promptly', and can be penalised even if your application is lodged with the court within the six week timespan, but towards the end of that period.
The judge's opinion of people leaving it until the last minute to vote could be crucial.  If they get the application approved quickly then there would be little point in going ahead on June 23rd.

The other point about this is that it wouldn't have taken a genius to predict that there was going to be this last minute demand to register, so why didn't they arrange for infinite back-up capacity for that day along the lines of Google/Facebook?
Its not difficult, but can be expensive.  Cameron could have used that £9million he spent on those Remain leaflets to good effect instead of throwing taxpayers' money into rubbish skips outside No10   :dan

Ed Kandi

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #146 on: June 09, 2016, 05:48:42 PM »
Getting very dirty, better than Eastenders.

The leave vote are leading on three polls, you will now see the dirty tricks.

Sarah Wollaston, leaves Brexit  stating that £350 million per week going towards NHS is untrue.

Have I missed something?  I thought Brexit claimed that £350 per week paid to the EU could go towards the NHS, not would.

Also £350 million is not the net figure, which is lower than the figure shown.

Can someone show the true figure Britain pays?

Claims and counter claims, no wonder the don't knows are confused.

Sarah Wollaston is the first of the stool pigeons to break cover  :laugh:
There will probably be a few more before the big day  :dan

Dipdodah

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #147 on: June 09, 2016, 06:00:32 PM »
Getting very dirty, better than Eastenders.

The leave vote are leading on three polls, you will now see the dirty tricks.

Sarah Wollaston, leaves Brexit  stating that £350 million per week going towards NHS is untrue.

Have I missed something?  I thought Brexit claimed that £350 per week paid to the EU could go towards the NHS, not would.

Also £350 million is not the net figure, which is lower than the figure shown.

Can someone show the true figure Britain pays?

Claims and counter claims, no wonder the don't knows are confused.

Sarah Wollaston is the first of the stool pigeons to break cover  :laugh:
There will probably be a few more before the big day  :dan

I agree, I think she was a sleeper.

If Johnson, Gove, or IDS break cover then we do know we have been conned ;)
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 09:11:43 AM by Dipdodah »
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Ernie100

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #148 on: June 09, 2016, 07:45:22 PM »
I have been really interested in reading the debate on here, whether we are being conned or not by one side or the other, I'm still bloody confused!!!!

Ferret

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #149 on: June 09, 2016, 08:38:12 PM »
If you have any evidence to dispute that, go ahead and post it otherwise I will assume we all agree on that

Using that logic you could assume that we all agree that the Christian's God is a three legged wombat?