O/T In or out

[Ernie100]

What worries me now Ed is another referendum looks on the cards. 

: STAY IN THE EU

:VOTE FOR MAYS' CRAP AND VERY DAMAGING EXIT PLAN

Two options, neither of which we voted for

IF they are the options given then I would scrub out the lower one and substitute "Leave", I know this would make my vote null and void, but, if every voter did the
same then the powers that be would be in a quandary.

[Ed Kandii]

What worries me now Ed is another referendum looks on the cards. 

: STAY IN THE EU

:VOTE FOR MAYS' CRAP AND VERY DAMAGING EXIT PLAN

Two options, neither of which we voted for

Remain should never appear on the ballot paper as that option was discarded in the 2016 People's Vote, with a massive turn out of the electorate.
If this happens then it will be clear that the Electoral Commission has been paid off by big businesses /the EU,/Soros/ Branson or any combination of these or others, the list is long.  This fix will have been organised by establishment figures such as Blair, Major, and assorted Remainers,  and such an event will signal the end of Democracy in the UK 
What happens after that will be interesting, if you overturn democracy what takes it's place? 

Theresa May is now being advised by Cameron 
The whole country is being trolled! 

[Pete Brooksbank]

If "Remain" is on the ballot next time, and a majority of people vote for it, then "the will of the people" is that we don't do Brexit after all. So you can hardly complain the will of the people has somehow been subverted.

You're just a bit worried because all the Brexit options are very obviously crap and there's a decent chance that Brexit won't happen if people get to pick between the crap deals on offer and just staying put.

[Dipdodah]

The EU is an exclusive club.  It reminds me of another exclusive club I know.  The Mafia.  Both have the same exit options, namely a body bag

[howmanynames2pick]

Pete..
you are an educated man and i respect your opinion
but do you feel the EU at present is a good thing?
if we were not in it would you think it would be  a good idea to join?
is it a worry that some of its member states are reported as being bankrupt or very close to it?
surely we cant just print money?
should the UK be one of those putting more in than it gets out? (i guess that can be explained away by some advanced economics)
Do you feel that the initial premise of a free trade area has been replaced by something far bigger, far more unwieldy?
is the way Brussels is making things awkward for us to leave is to show others (Italy and Greece spring to mind) on just how difficult they will make it for anyone wanting out?
i voted out as you may have guessed, in some ways i hope there is a second referendum and the vote is much wider one way or the other. i hate this division.
Maybe those who didn't vote may just come out .. lets just hope its not raining

[Dipdodah]

If "Remain" is on the ballot next time, and a majority of people vote for it, then "the will of the people" is that we don't do Brexit after all. So you can hardly complain the will of the people has somehow been subverted.

You're just a bit worried because all the Brexit options are very obviously crap and there's a decent chance that Brexit won't happen if people get to pick between the crap deals on offer and just staying put.

Several countries have had a second referendum concerning the EU.  From memory I think the first result was overturned bar one.

[Pete Brooksbank]

Pete..
you are an educated man and i respect your opinion
but do you feel the EU at present is a good thing?
if we were not in it would you think it would be  a good idea to join?
is it a worry that some of its member states are reported as being bankrupt or very close to it?
surely we cant just print money?
should the UK be one of those putting more in than it gets out? (i guess that can be explained away by some advanced economics)
Do you feel that the initial premise of a free trade area has been replaced by something far bigger, far more unwieldy?
is the way Brussels is making things awkward for us to leave is to show others (Italy and Greece spring to mind) on just how difficult they will make it for anyone wanting out?
i voted out as you may have guessed, in some ways i hope there is a second referendum and the vote is much wider one way or the other. i hate this division.
Maybe those who didn't vote may just come out .. lets just hope its not raining

I think you have some valid points, especially about the EU's "project" extending far beyond its original remit into more of a political bloc. I have never pretended the EU is perfect. On the contrary, like all blocs of its size, it is beset by flaws, dodgy characters, bungling incompetence as well as being nearly incomprehensibly complicated.

That said.... the economic benefits we derive of pooling resources and being in a massive free market trading bloc cannot be underestimated. Nor can the cultural benefits - of thinking of Europeans as our friends and colleagues, rather than the classic Brexiteer world view of "the Spanish" (and the rest) being pesky upstart rivals we need to beat.

To chuck all that away for no tangible benefit still makes no sense to me, even now.

[Ed Kandii]

If "Remain" is on the ballot next time, and a majority of people vote for it, then "the will of the people" is that we don't do Brexit after all. So you can hardly complain the will of the people has somehow been subverted.

Assuming democracy has been subverted by the establishment to the extent that there's another referendum and 'Remain' appears on the voting slip, it will make a mockery of everything we were told by Cameron, ie ' Once in a lifetime decision, your decision, will of the people, we WILL leave the EU, etc, etc'

If, in this purely hypothetical scenario, Leave came out on top again I'm sure we can expect another referendum to once again 'see if the will of the people has changed' before the end of the transition period.
 
If Remain was the favoured option in this hypothetical 2nd vote situation, would we then have another vote to check how the will of the people was shaping up a couple of years after we'd cancelled A50 and stayed in the EU? 
Maybe its worth checking on the will of the people every two years ad infinitum from now on just in case 

[Ed Kandii]

That said.... the economic benefits we derive of pooling resources and being in a massive free market trading bloc cannot be underestimated. Nor can the cultural benefits - of thinking of Europeans as our friends and colleagues, rather than the classic Brexiteer world view of "the Spanish" (and the rest) being pesky upstart rivals we need to beat.

To chuck all that away for no tangible benefit still makes no sense to me, even now.

Maybe the significant opportunity we would have through the control of tariff schedules and regulatory autonomy has just passed you by? 

With no major multilateral trade deal concluded for 23 years the global trading system is in crisis. 
A major G7 nation adopting an independent trading policy for the first time in over 40 years is a huge global event that has never happened before and is unlikely to ever happen again.

The current trajectory of the global regulatory system would favour us as it is in a more anti-competitive and prescriptive direction.
We can benefit massively from having an independent trade policy as well as a comprehensive EU trading policy.

We have already rejected one comprehensive FTA with regulatory cooperation, customs facilitations, and Irish border facilitations, so a decent EU trade deal of some description will happen if/when we leave. 

[Pete Brooksbank]

Regulatory autonomy doesn't really exist in practice though does it? The very nature of trade deals mean you are agreeing between you to align some regulations to facilitate the free(er) movement of goods, services (and sometimes people). And it's not like regulations were imposed upon us. We were part of the entity that created them. The simple fact of the matter is that in the real world, we'll simply adopt de facto regulatory alignment with our biggest trading partner (the EU) without having any say in the creation of those regulations. You might argue "ah but now we can do trade with Japan on whatever terms we like", but since they've got a trade deal with the EU and will also in many cases be meeting EU standards, our future deal with them might as well be broadly in line with what the EU and Japan have agreed, since divergence on either side simply wouldn't make any economic sense.

So again: really, what's the point?

But then, this has never really been about trade. Not for the architects of Brexit anyway. There are much darker forces at work here.

[howmanynames2pick]

Darker forces Pete??
It was the far right who warned us at the last referendum not to join  .now its the far right (allegedly) who want us out...
Or maybe its the fear of globalization??
As i put in an earlier post if you look  at the former yogoslavia as a  microcosm of the EU where different creeds languages and cultures are put under one "heading"  it doesnt end up well.
The biggest fear the Brussels types have is who will follow uk.
The Common Market has disappeared  a long time ago and been replaced by the red tape ridden over bearing wasteful monster that the EU has become..

[Dipdodah]

A friend told me that Matty thinks that if his constituents voted again we would vote to remain.

[Pete Brooksbank]

A friend told me that Matty thinks that if his constituents voted again we would vote to remain.

Nah, Boston would still vote to leave, I don't even think the %s would even change that much.

[Pete Brooksbank]

Darker forces Pete??
It was the far right who warned us at the last referendum not to join  .now its the far right (allegedly) who want us out...
Or maybe its the fear of globalization??
As i put in an earlier post if you look  at the former yogoslavia as a  microcosm of the EU where different creeds languages and cultures are put under one "heading"  it doesnt end up well.
The biggest fear the Brussels types have is who will follow uk.
The Common Market has disappeared  a long time ago and been replaced by the red tape ridden over bearing wasteful monster that the EU has become..

It didn't end well precisely because nationalists arrived on the scene and began pitting neighbour vs neighbour. Which is exactly what's happening right now in the UK. Nationalists are utter vermin, and I do not use that word lightly. They sow discord, hatred and misery, and ultimately start wars.

[green hats mate]

A friend told me that Matty thinks that if his constituents voted again we would vote to remain.

Possibly Matt did say that Dip , from some of the stuff Matt tells me I think he's on another planet .