Author Topic: O/T In or out  (Read 326558 times)

Pete B

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #780 on: October 16, 2018, 08:01:03 AM »
Can't see any way for May to escape this. There is absolutely no deal she can reach that will satisfy the remainers in her party, or the hardline Brexiters, or the DUP, or the EU.

GE followed by a Corbyn government with a tiny majority would be my guess at this point - at which point all bets are off for what happens next. I think we are in for an extraordinary and highly destructive few months.

Still. Immigrants. Boo.

agree with everything above until the final "summary" ,,,if you believe its purely about immigrants i believe you are wrong..
maybe its about paying more in than we get out?
maybe its about an unnecessary parliament in Brussels?
maybe its about an unnecessary European commission ?
We voted "in" to a Common Market... a free trade area..did it need parliament/commissions to sort it?
 despite all the warnings from Michael Foot, Peter Shore, Tony Benn that this would lead to, well, where we are now!


Come off it. It takes literally three seconds to Google research that shows the main reason people voted out was to control immigration and "regain control of our borders" (http://csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/?p=1153).

It's therefore perplexing, but not surprising, that these same people are now happy *not* to control our borders by leaving the RoI-NI border completely open. I've heard so many Brexit fans going, "well, we don't want a border." Okay. So if you're a Polish lad and want to come work in Boston, you'd simply need to fly to Dublin as an EU citizen, drive up to Belfast, ferry to the UK and boom: welcome to West Street.

Honestly. It's almost like vast swathes of our population have simply given up thinking things through.

Also: I find it depressing that you continue to talk about the EU as something that was inflicted upon us, when the democratically-elected British governments of the 70s, 80s and 90s all played active roles in its formation, as well as the creation of the very same rules and red lines that the EU are supposedly 'bullies' for sticking to. WE helped create those rules. WE voted in the politicians that helped write them. They are OUR rules, just as much as France's, or Germany's.

I thought you lot were all about respecting the will of the people?  ;D

Dipdodah

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #781 on: October 16, 2018, 09:22:17 AM »
Pete, you still don't get it ( or maybe you do ).  Please, give we who voted leave some credit.

You try to say we had a simplistic approach in reaching our decision to vote out.  I have been a working man all my life ( voting Labour, pint with my mates and for my sins watching Boston on a Saturday )  I may not have gone to university but I know when something is wrong.  The EU is so wrong on many levels,

It is a bully, controlled by two nations.  It is corrupt, controlled by un-elected pen pushers on salaries and pensions that are obscene ( that is why we will never leave, there are too many fingers in the pie).  It is a democracy in name only. The same as this government when May sells us down the line.  I  was sick to death of Brussels bringing in laws to suit some German or French minority at the expense of 1000's in the UK.  I was fed up with the UK giving our money away to fund bird brain ideas in some Eastern European back water.  It peeved me when I heard every year that the UK was one of only three net contributors.  My blood boils when I have to wait four hours in A&E (in an hospital which I helped pay for ) because of a 30% increase in our local population due to the migrant influx.  I hated the fact that Westminster was only a puppet, passing laws that were overturned in a city 100's of miles away on main land Europe.

I voted for self government
I voted for control of our finances
I voted for freedom to trade with ever we thought fit
I voted for control of our borders

We opened our borders to all.  Our little town was swamped.  No new doctors, no new schools, a hospital struggling to cope, a smaller police force, no new houses and very little support for migrant workers.

We were given NO extra money to address these problems.

THAT IS WHY I AND MANY OTHERS VOTED LEAVE.

The deal has already been done.  We have been sold down the line.  May will keep us in a transitional period.  We will pay £39 billion to line their coffers and have no say in anything.  The Bullies have won.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 10:51:11 AM by Dipdodah »
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Ed Kandii

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #782 on: October 16, 2018, 10:54:17 AM »
Spot on Dipodah.
The whole thing has been an elaborate charade from the start.  If we do leave at all it will be Brexit in name only, and we will be a vassal state in the German led Federal Republic of Europe. As Boris put it, we will be paraded in manacles like Caratacus as a warning of what happens if you dare to try to leave the EU.
The only chance we have is if there's more resignations from the cabinet, and they put someone who actually voted leave in charge... I'm not holding my breath on that one :(

Pete B

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #783 on: October 16, 2018, 11:48:02 AM »
Spot on Dipodah.
The whole thing has been an elaborate charade from the start.  If we do leave at all it will be Brexit in name only, and we will be a vassal state in the German led Federal Republic of Europe. As Boris put it, we will be paraded in manacles like Caratacus as a warning of what happens if you dare to try to leave the EU.
The only chance we have is if there's more resignations from the cabinet, and they put someone who actually voted leave in charge... I'm not holding my breath on that one :(

You voted for the UK to be weaker than Germany, and to be a rules-taker from a much larger trading bloc on our doorstep - so why are you now complaining about it? You were warned. Repeatedly.

Ed Kandii

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #784 on: October 16, 2018, 01:59:11 PM »
What are you talking about?
I voted to take us out of the EU for several reasons, one of the main ones being to regain our Sovereignty and to avoid our national identity being subsumed into the Federal States of a Franco/Germany controlled Europe.
None of that involves being a rule taker from anyone. We are already economically weaker than Germany, and militarily stronger.  If we can break away from the EU gulag we have a great chance of improving our economic position by trading globally. (Cue massive deluge of project fear mongering lol!)  ;)

Dipdodah

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #785 on: October 17, 2018, 10:24:18 AM »
I was watching Irish TV last night.  A panel of " experts  " were debating Brexit.  It was good to see an unbiased  ( non government controlled ) view.  Obviously, views were put forward by pro and anti Brexit supporters.

What I did find refreshing was the sensible views put forward by both sides.

The opinion of most was that May would stick to her word, and stand by her written agreement, that there will be no hard border between North and South.

The general opinion was that a NO DEAL would be the final outcome.

It was nice to see a non British view on the subject and not the backstabbing ( from both camps ) information we are force fed over here.
Never keep up with the Joneses, drag them down to your level ...............it's cheaper.

Pete B

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #786 on: October 17, 2018, 01:55:57 PM »
It would be illegal to erect a hard border under the terms of the GFA, but it would also be illegal NOT to erect a border under international law. Work that out if you can.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 02:01:00 PM by Pete B »

Pete B

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #787 on: October 17, 2018, 02:00:16 PM »
What are you talking about?
I voted to take us out of the EU for several reasons, one of the main ones being to regain our Sovereignty and to avoid our national identity being subsumed into the Federal States of a Franco/Germany controlled Europe.
None of that involves being a rule taker from anyone. We are already economically weaker than Germany, and militarily stronger.  If we can break away from the EU gulag we have a great chance of improving our economic position by trading globally. (Cue massive deluge of project fear mongering lol!)  ;)

Dunno what you're on about to be  honest. Because what you've just described is the UK being a rule-taker. The EU will be our biggest export market, so obviously our exports will have to match their standards - standards we'll have no say in whatsoever. Same goes for eventual trade deals with the USA, China etc when they come on line over the next 10 years or so. They're much bigger nations than us, so naturally we will acquiesce to their demands as the inferior country. We have absolutely no influence on such things anymore. Soz - that's just how global trade works these days, and you hardly have to be an expert to know that.

Pete B

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #788 on: October 17, 2018, 03:56:31 PM »
Oh, and BTW - if, after all that, you still think I'm a remoaning scaremonger peddling "project fear", you'll do well to go away and have a read of submissions published today by the trade sub-committee of the Australian Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade as part of its initial analysis of a future trade deal with the UK.

According to Australia, the UK, and I quote here, is likely to be the "distressed negotiator" from which Australia will be able to extract "significant concessions". But - and this is the worst bit - Australia is going to wait for the United States and Canada to weaken our position EVEN FURTHER before they then move in for the kill.

This is not project fear. This is actual strategy from a foreign country keen to exploit our weakened international status. Published today, if you want to go read all the gory details (you probably should, because if that isn't a reality check for you then I honestly give up).

green hats mate

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #789 on: October 17, 2018, 04:27:37 PM »
Oh, and BTW - if, after all that, you still think I'm a remoaning scaremonger peddling "project fear", you'll do well to go away and have a read of submissions published today by the trade sub-committee of the Australian Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade as part of its initial analysis of a future trade deal with the UK.

According to Australia, the UK, and I quote here, is likely to be the "distressed negotiator" from which Australia will be able to extract "significant concessions". But - and this is the worst bit - Australia is going to wait for the United States and Canada to weaken our position EVEN FURTHER before they then move in for the kill.

This is not project fear. This is actual strategy from a foreign country keen to exploit our weakened international status. Published today, if you want to go read all the gory details (you probably should, because if that isn't a reality check for you then I honestly give up).

Then again their strategy may go pear shape , a bit like our Brexit strategy !! :(

Dipdodah

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #790 on: October 17, 2018, 04:30:19 PM »
Things may be a little clearer tonight, when they all have dinner ( except May ) to discuss how to proceed.
Never keep up with the Joneses, drag them down to your level ...............it's cheaper.

Ed Kandii

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #791 on: October 18, 2018, 02:11:11 PM »
Yes slightly clearer just now!  :o
They're now discussing a backstop to the backstop's backstop: a triple backstop in fact, and extending the transition period for an unspecified amount of time... could be the last straw for the Tory Brexiteers  :police:

Dipdodah

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #792 on: October 18, 2018, 02:14:47 PM »
Yes slightly clearer just now!  :o
They're now discussing a backstop to the backstop's backstop: a triple backstop in fact, and extending the transition period for an unspecified amount of time... could be the last straw for the Tory Brexiteers  :police:

Whatever it is ED, it will be a massive climb down, and prove how weak we are :( :(
Never keep up with the Joneses, drag them down to your level ...............it's cheaper.

Dipdodah

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #793 on: October 18, 2018, 03:18:16 PM »
She was an inept Home secretary ( just look at our Police force ).  She is an even worst Prime Minister.  How can you have someone leading the negotiations who does not believe in us leaving the EU? >:(
Never keep up with the Joneses, drag them down to your level ...............it's cheaper.

Ed Kandii

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #794 on: October 18, 2018, 07:37:51 PM »
What are you talking about?
I voted to take us out of the EU for several reasons, one of the main ones being to regain our Sovereignty and to avoid our national identity being subsumed into the Federal States of a Franco/Germany controlled Europe.
None of that involves being a rule taker from anyone. We are already economically weaker than Germany, and militarily stronger.  If we can break away from the EU gulag we have a great chance of improving our economic position by trading globally. (Cue massive deluge of project fear mongering lol!)  ;)

Dunno what you're on about to be  honest. Because what you've just described is the UK being a rule-taker. The EU will be our biggest export market, so obviously our exports will have to match their standards - standards we'll have no say in whatsoever. Same goes for eventual trade deals with the USA, China etc when they come on line over the next 10 years or so. They're much bigger nations than us, so naturally we will acquiesce to their demands as the inferior country. We have absolutely no influence on such things anymore. Soz - that's just how global trade works these days, and you hardly have to be an expert to know that.
If we want to trade with other countries we negotiate trade deals which, by necessity, involves regulatory alignment... nothing to see here, we're not being forced into rule taking, its a negotiation process.