O/T In or out

[green hats mate]

Dipdodah - of course it's not being pushed by Germany. The EU is by design an institution in which all members contribute equally. It's not the Second World War any more! If you feel threatened by Germany it's probably just because they do a lot of things much better than we do them - simple as that. But it's not like they waltz into the European Parliament and everyone cowers. The BBC reports it was actually Finland that kicked off the debate - and that's all it is at this stage.

As for London's future status as a financial centre - well, passporting will not be prioritised by Theresa May, so yes, Germany could well end up snaffling financial services from us and decimate the City. But if that's what happens, then hey, that's what we voted for - it's not like they invaded and nicked them; we gifted them the opportunity. Course they'll take it. Anyone would.

The old fart OXO is right Pete his generation has seen it all before  , relax and  enjoy your football & hobbies,  ignore the so called experts and politicians , they are there to generate a stash of cash for  themselves not there country .

Working in an industry that depends on EU regulatory alliance, I could lose my job after Brexit if - as rumoured - the office is relocated to Germany. But yeah, I'll just relax and enjoy my hobbies.

Certainly hope you don't Pete , in the murky world of politics  and industry many rumours are started for ulterior motives .
Sometimes redundentcy leads to better things .

[Dipdodah]

Dipdodah - of course it's not being pushed by Germany. The EU is by design an institution in which all members contribute equally. It's not the Second World War any more! If you feel threatened by Germany it's probably just because they do a lot of things much better than we do them - simple as that. But it's not like they waltz into the European Parliament and everyone cowers. The BBC reports it was actually Finland that kicked off the debate - and that's all it is at this stage.

As for London's future status as a financial centre - well, passporting will not be prioritised by Theresa May, so yes, Germany could well end up snaffling financial services from us and decimate the City. But if that's what happens, then hey, that's what we voted for - it's not like they invaded and nicked them; we gifted them the opportunity. Course they'll take it. Anyone would.

The old fart OXO is right Pete his generation has seen it all before  , relax and  enjoy your football & hobbies,  ignore the so called experts and politicians , they are there to generate a stash of cash for  themselves not there country .

Working in an industry that depends on EU regulatory alliance, I could lose my job after Brexit if - as rumoured - the office is relocated to Germany. But yeah, I'll just relax and enjoy my hobbies.

Not good Pete, hope all works out in the end.  Hopefully just scaremongering.

[Ed Kandi]

A British contingent of clapped-out binosaurs, consisting of Blair, Major, Adonis, Osbourne, Clegg, Corbyn etc, are making an emergency trip to Italy.
Apparently most Italians are too thick, un-informed, and just generally too dim-witted to know what they voted for yesterday, and these guys are going to tell them just that in their usual non-patronising manner 

Meanwhile back in the UK the BBC/EUBC choose to lead with a supposedly asthmatic Wiggins, and the burst water main just south of Watford......nothing to see in Italy, move along ladies and gentlemen 

The leader of Lega Nord, Matteo Salvini, when asked why the pro EU parties did so badly, observed:-

"Europe has been punishing us for the last 15 years, we are worse off than 15 years ago. Europe can go f**k itself"   

[Dipdodah]

A British contingent of clapped-out binosaurs, consisting of Blair, Major, Adonis, Osbourne, Clegg, Corbyn etc, are making an emergency trip to Italy.
Apparently most Italians are too thick, un-informed, and just generally too dim-witted to know what they voted for yesterday, and these guys are going to tell them just that in their usual non-patronising manner 

Meanwhile back in the UK the BBC/EUBC choose to lead with a supposedly asthmatic Wiggins, and the burst water main just south of Watford......nothing to see in Italy, move along ladies and gentlemen 

The leader of Lega Nord, Matteo Salvini, when asked why the pro EU parties did so badly, observed:-

"Europe has been punishing us for the last 15 years, we are worse off than 15 years ago. Europe can go f**k itself"   

Nearly 50% of the voters, voted for non EU supporting parties.  I hope I am wrong, but Europe seems to be heading ever so far to the right.

[Pete Brooksbank]

And yet you're actively supporting a new political landscape that will be an absolute *dream* for the far right (and the far left for that matter - they're both as bad as each other, so please don't try and paint me as some salivating Communist Corbyn fan!).

I mean, do you not ever stop to look at the people who crave the demise of the EU - the unapologetic but genuine fascists and racists (and I'm not talking about the average voter by the way, but the figureheads who are pushing this), as well as those who probably wouldn't mind a bit of socialist totalitarianism - and wonder, just perhaps, if there's something a bit iffy about it all? There's nothing about the rhetoric of nationalism espoused by pro-Brexit politicians that concerns you a tad?

Or what about the noticeable rise in anti-intellectualism? Nothing about that troubles you? I mean, it really wasn't that long ago that the same people who would push for Brexit today were marching teachers, doctors, lawyers, professors, journalists and academics out into the woods in Poland and shooting them in the head. Not a *bit* suspicious? I'm just saying, because nationalism *always* ends up going one way.... and it's never a good one.

I'm not saying Michael Gove is a genocidal maniac, of course. Nor is Daniel Hannan. But then again, these things always start with a softening of the norms of civilised society, something Donald Trump is doing over in the States too.

Nationalism - whether it's from the far right or the far left - is an absolute disease. It's almost like none of history's most salient and bloodiest lessons have been learned.

[howmanynames2pick]

"Nationalism - whether it's from the far right or the far left - is an absolute disease. It's almost like none of history's most salient and bloodiest lessons have been learned."

a valid point Pete...however when you see the landscape of the country you grew up in being changed irrevocably and not always for the better by a religion/mind set so totally alien to our own at what point do you say "enough"??
please please do not point the far right/racist/fascist finger at me... i can assure i am none of those.
but however much i disagreed with politicians in the past i can see their statements coming to reality.. this is both sad and VERY frightening.
i have more time behind me than i have in front of me and what world my grandkids will grow up into saddens.
this is not just nostalgic rant from an older bloke but a genuine fear.
the far right (a loathe some group) will rise due to the appeasement being done daily by governments.
the far left now is a mouthy group who simply try to shout down any body with opposing thoughts..
i see Luton/Oldham/Blackburn/Southall where "british" people are carrying posters etc DEMANDING  the end of the West and our culture.
it doesn't bode well

[Pete Brooksbank]

"Nationalism - whether it's from the far right or the far left - is an absolute disease. It's almost like none of history's most salient and bloodiest lessons have been learned."

a valid point Pete...however when you see the landscape of the country you grew up in being changed irrevocably and not always for the better by a religion/mind set so totally alien to our own at what point do you say "enough"??
please please do not point the far right/racist/fascist finger at me... i can assure i am none of those.
but however much i disagreed with politicians in the past i can see their statements coming to reality.. this is both sad and VERY frightening.
i have more time behind me than i have in front of me and what world my grandkids will grow up into saddens.
this is not just nostalgic rant from an older bloke but a genuine fear.
the far right (a loathe some group) will rise due to the appeasement being done daily by governments.
the far left now is a mouthy group who simply try to shout down any body with opposing thoughts..
i see Luton/Oldham/Blackburn/Southall where "british" people are carrying posters etc DEMANDING  the end of the West and our culture.
it doesn't bode well

Certainly did not point the finger at you - I quite clearly stated I was referring to political figureheads rather than ordinary voters. Although you have just alluded to Muslims there, and I'm not sure what they have to do with the EU?

Something that HAS been blamed on the EU is the demise of the fishing industry. Nigel Farage and his ilk said that Brexit would mean we could "take back control" of our waters by ditching the CFP. This is palpable nonsense, and indeed within the last hour the EU has stated it will only be offering us a deal in which "existing reciprocal access to fishing waters and resources [will] be maintained." So basically, nothing will change in the fishing industry.

So Farage was lying.

Wonder why he lied? Puzzling.... isn't it?

[howmanynames2pick]

never thought you were pointing at me Pete, however.. anything said not totally PC ends up with a race card etc being bandied .. its just an easy response by some (not you)
i did allude to a group that now move amongst us.. with Merkel thinking its just dandy to let 000's more come in will be a disaster. some will assimilate and get on with it.. some will feel alien and sadly some will BE MADE to feel alien. These will become a huge problem. So it is an EU problem.
i have some very good Hindu friends and talking to them is worrying.. not only when they speak about India but Southall  (which is the adjacent borough to them) All sorts of issues, rarely reported for fear of "upsetting" people
the streets are at a standstill near one mosque because they're on their knees in the street as they all cant get in.. and they will not move... the police treat it as a "no go " zone.
is this right?
Did the fear of upsetting the grooming gangs in Rotherham and Rochdale  benefit the girls families??

 again how far will this go until EDL types say "F you"... and it kicks off.
i worry for my friends .. they have brown faces but observe our laws etc, but these far right doylems will only see a non white face

i tapped this out with a heavy heart Pete.....

[Dipdodah]

never thought you were pointing at me Pete, however.. anything said not totally PC ends up with a race card etc being bandied .. its just an easy response by some (not you)
i did allude to a group that now move amongst us.. with Merkel thinking its just dandy to let 000's more come in will be a disaster. some will assimilate and get on with it.. some will feel alien and sadly some will BE MADE to feel alien. These will become a huge problem. So it is an EU problem.
i have some very good Hindu friends and talking to them is worrying.. not only when they speak about India but Southall  (which is the adjacent borough to them) All sorts of issues, rarely reported for fear of "upsetting" people
the streets are at a standstill near one mosque because they're on their knees in the street as they all cant get in.. and they will not move... the police treat it as a "no go " zone.
is this right?
Did the fear of upsetting the grooming gangs in Rotherham and Rochdale  benefit the girls families??

 again how far will this go until EDL types say "F you"... and it kicks off.
i worry for my friends .. they have brown faces but observe our laws etc, but these far right doylems will only see a non white face

i tapped this out with a heavy heart Pete.....

Howmanynames2pick, when I started this topic two years ago, I did not want it to turn into a racial discussion.  The way things are evolving in Britain and across Europe, now makes this unavoidable. 

I totally agree with both the above posts.  I congratulate you on putting your point across in an articulate manner, touching the problem,yet not being racist.

I like the fact we are an Island race.  I like our culture.  I like our history ( even thou some are trying to air brush it out ). I like our Christian beliefs.  I like the village pub and I can go on.  These are disappearing .  This could be down to natural evolvement, and most likely is.  It just seems to be accelerating at an alarming pace.

People look for someone or something to blame.  So they vote to leave the EU, or vote for some far right racist party.
I believe everyone is equal, I hate snobbery, I hate homophobia, I hate racism and I hate sexism, but most of all I hate people who abuse these equal rights acts.  One of the main reasons I voted out was because of the meddling by The Court of Human Rights.  Some scumbag from a different nation can come here Murder rape or commit an act of terrorism but cannot be deported because it infringes on his human rights.

I also fear for this country, I, like you fear that the people will say enough is enough.  I may be selfish, but the way things are going I am glad I may not be about in 20 years time.

[Ken Fox]

One of the main reasons I voted out was because of the meddling by The Court of Human Rights.  Some scumbag from a different nation can come here Murder rape or commit an act of terrorism but cannot be deported because it infringes on his human rights.

So you're quite happy to make millions of families in the UK poorer; see the decimation of the NHS as staffing levels drop; farmers have their crops rotting in the fields unpicked, higher levels of unemployment as big companies desert the UK for Europe; the housing crisis worsen because there's nobody to build much needed new houses and troubles reignite in Ireland over border issues. Just because you think it will mean a handful of criminals can be deported rather than face justice in British jails? Which it actually doesn't as the European Court of Human Rights has nothing to do with the European Union.

[Pete Brooksbank]

The Government's own analysis predicts a 7.7% drop in GDP if we go the the Brexit that Rees-Mogg and his ilk so crave. 7.7%. For comparison, the crash of 2008 was 2%.

I don't know how it is in Boston, but here in Nottingham many roads are falling apart and there's no money to fix them. This country is actually decaying before our eyes.

Imagine how bad it'll be with 7.7% wiped off? Honestly. This is what we want? This isn't making the UK great again; it's destroying it. And for what? Still no-one can say.

Anyway - enough of this. Time to get pissed at York. See you there!

[green hats mate]

The Government's own analysis predicts a 7.7% drop in GDP if we go the the Brexit that Rees-Mogg and his ilk so crave. 7.7%. For comparison, the crash of 2008 was 2%.

I don't know how it is in Boston, but here in Nottingham many roads are falling apart and there's no money to fix them. This country is actually decaying before our eyes.

Imagine how bad it'll be with 7.7% wiped off? Honestly. This is what we want? This isn't making the UK great again; it's destroying it. And for what? Still no-one can say.

Anyway - enough of this. Time to get pissed at York. See you there!

Yes it's exactly the same at Boston Pete ,  Brexit or no Brexit the concerns you have raised will be justified due to governments over the last 20 years or so who have continually overspent .   Without the referendum we would still be in the mire ,  spend today and leave the mess to future generations to sort it out is the strategy .   The politicians who present us the "facts" (guesswork) of the outcome are the same politicians who endorsed the policies that landed us with such debt .

In Boston many of the comments from the national media exposes these experts are out of touch .  for example "lack of intergration"   , one thing that brings joy to my heart when collecting grandkids from school is the genuine warmth between "us and then "  ,  well done to teachers and parents .

I'm yet to see a confrontation between a local and a immigrant on the Boston streets .

Often on National TV we see NFU spokesperson say Brexit would be a disaster for farming , recently speaking to the owner of a business in south Lincs who depend solely on farmers for their trade commented that the vast majority of their costomers (farmers) backed Brexit .

As for the "scum , murderers and rapists etc "  all the immigants that I converse with entilely agree they should be sent back to where they came from .     And speaking to those who have attended the scene of one of these horrific attacks will I suggest fully endorse this view .

I would say to those sitting in the armchair and listening to so called independant experts in the media,
get amongst the general public and listen to a more balanced veiw .  I have to say most our Polish , lithuanian and Latvian friends take a more relaxed and pragmatic veiw of the outcome than most of us .

[Winging It]

All those predictions from project fear failed on the voters, and now we are getting a project fear mark two and to be honest its getting all a bit boring now. We voted, and if the result was remain I would have accepted it, even as a leave voter.  Even now, how can anyone despite who they are on the political or professional ladder claim what is going to happen in an unknown future. They can't ! We had think tanks pre Brexit and everything they stated didn't materialise. It's guesswork, the same as the leave voters judgement was guesswork. but they had seen what the EU offered and preferred something different. You weigh up the pros and cons and vote accordingly. Calls for a second referendum is wrong. Think of politics in a football way, you are not going to call for a reply just because the result didn't go your way now are you ?

We have to accept in life that society is changing, communities are changing and to reflect on this politics are changing. Just look at what is happening in other European nations, people feel cheated, at a loss and demoralised with what I call "bu****it politics". We are now looking for someone with some sense and honesty in delivering what the majority of the people voted for.
What direction do we go here in this Country in terms of parties. I am at a loss as who to trust or even vote for. May is weak at delivering Brexit, Corbyn's mass spending plans with little in the pot would have the nation crippled within five years in my honest opinion and this is not knocking Labour voters I will add, the Lib Dems are not strong enough, Greens offer very little and UKIP are now broken. Maybe a new party should form?  Of course, these are my views and not the views of everyone else. I respect who you voted for and what your wishes are for the future.

[spannerman]

What part of democracy do the 100000 marchers in London not understand ,if more of the population
Voted maybe the outcome would of been different but right or wrong (only time will tell not a crystal ball ) we as a country voted to leave .if we have a second vote does it mean every time a election is held if we don't like who gets into power we can have a rerun I don't think so .
I am not saying we will be better or worse of by leaving ,but to have the best chance for a good deal our leaders need a free hand in the negotiations ,without it Europe will walk all over us .
On a positive note there was a small piece in yesterday's paper Saying that in a survey 75% of shareholders are pleased with the way the stock marking is performing since the vote to leave .

[Dipdodah]

You are right Spannerman.  Two years ago the lack of turnout in London contributed to the bexit vote.  Five minutes of a ten minute news bulletin yesterday was dedicated to an antibrexit march.  Yet a counter march of over 25,000 hardly got a mention.

We have to show a united front against the EU else our negotiating power will be watered down.

I worry we are going to take a bad deal.