Author Topic: O/T In or out  (Read 305759 times)

Adam

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #660 on: December 23, 2017, 10:34:33 AM »
...and similarly, many leading members of the leave campaign argued that we would not leave the single market. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other if you look at the speculative arguments put forward during the referendum campaign.

On the other hand, it is a stonewall fact that the single market and EU are separate entities - Norway and others clearly demonstrate this. It is also a fact that the Conservatives ran their election campaignon the basis of a hard Brexit, leaving the single market etc, and promptly lost their majority.

As a country, we've spent the last six decades or so getting by by taking the middle road - neither the socialised economies ran by large chunks of mainland Europe, but equally with a much stronger safety net than you find across the pond. Infrastructure and management that are not particularly good compared to German standards, but generally at least well utilised compared with the empty airports and roads to nowhere you find Spain, etc etc. The idea that we should be interpreting the result of a 52/48 refendum (which opinion polls say would now go the other way) as meaning we should take the most extreme option available from the winning side was always ridiculous, self-harming and frankly un-British considering our values of moderation and sensible compromise. Thankfully, it now seems like a mixture of our weak negotiating position and there being a handful of Tory MPs happy to put country before party means that hard Brexit is pretty much dead. Good riddance.

Incidentally, two of the key warnings of the remain campaign were of economic damage and the fact that we would have a weak hand in negotiations. On the first, we've gone from being the fastest growing member of the G8 to the slowest. Our economy is barely moving forward at a time when most of the world (including the Eurozone!) is steaming along. On the second, well, look at the terms of that exit deal. Every time the press report that we have 'reached an agreement', it can be roughly translated as us having capitulated to the demands of the EU, because they hold all the cards. It's humiliating, but hey, us remoaners never promised it would be anything other than that.

Ed Kandi

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #661 on: December 23, 2017, 11:39:28 AM »
Unfortunately, from the remoaner viewpoint, we have to leave the Single Market in order to carry out the democratic will of the people.
Any compromise on this, the EUJ, and the Customs Union, will leave this country as a vassal state to the unelected bureaucrats of the EU, in a subordinate, suppliant position, still paying in billions with no say in what goes on.
Britannia will be laid out in that EU negotiating chamber, legs widespread, while the likes of Juncker, Barnier, and Tusk queue up to give her a right royal shafting :o
 No matter how many hours you spend on here typing endless pro- EU blather you're not going to change that.

The great British public will not stand by and watch that happen.  Enoch Powell was right all those years ago when he said that the British people will not tolerate such a state.of affairs.

Anyway, I'm off down to Chris Cook's printshop to pick up my replica blue British Passport cover as the burgundy EU version is already history  ;)

green hats mate

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #662 on: December 23, 2017, 12:36:41 PM »
It seems you spend many hours reading up on this Brexit business Adam and we should all be grateful you passing on the opinions /speculations sourced .   Like you I am critical and distrustful of most politicians and rightly so , but I do think many have had actual experience of complex business transactions unlike many of those telling us how it should be done .

I think many underestimate their skills and knowledge ,  I am sure right from the beginning they knew about border problems etc ,
At the moment it is all manoeuvring and posturing for public consumption by both sides .
We will have to be patient for a few years yet for the real effects to work though .

I base my judgement on what I see and hear locally .
I spoke to a very staunch Remain politician recently who  canvassed for a remain vote,  I put the following points to him based on my observations and not based on expert speculation which suggested places like Boston reaped great benifits from imported labour .

The very hard working workforce on low pay hand over a big portion of wages to a landlord ,   lets not forget their income is supplemented by tax credits and child benifit ,  a burden on taxpayers .

It's no secret that the police and trading standards are lacking manpower to cope with illegall sale of illegal goods ,  cigs and drink etc.
No tax for the HMRC there then ,  in turn the bona fida retailer  receives a deduction in sales hitting his earnings that would be tax deducted .  The now ex- remain politician admitted that the adverse  health effect of the contents of the said goods would add futher burden to the Pilgrim in coming years .    A fair portion of the income is "sent home " rather than spent on goods locally .  I think its safe to say the "experts"  overlook pertinent factors just mentioned,  giving me little faith in so-called facts .

According to reported figures over the last 6 years the average wage in Boston has increased 5% ,  little there for the actual workers whatever nationality in Boston to cheer about.

Hopefully farmers and bigger commercial firms are still enjoying the generous EU grants handed to them .










Dipdodah

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #663 on: December 23, 2017, 03:24:10 PM »
...and similarly, many leading members of the leave campaign argued that we would not leave the single market. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other if you look at the speculative arguments put forward during the referendum campaign.

On the other hand, it is a stonewall fact that the single market and EU are separate entities - Norway and others clearly demonstrate this. It is also a fact that the Conservatives ran their election campaignon the basis of a hard Brexit, leaving the single market etc, and promptly lost their majority.

As a country, we've spent the last six decades or so getting by by taking the middle road - neither the socialised economies ran by large chunks of mainland Europe, but equally with a much stronger safety net than you find across the pond. Infrastructure and management that are not particularly good compared to German standards, but generally at least well utilised compared with the empty airports and roads to nowhere you find Spain, etc etc. The idea that we should be interpreting the result of a 52/48 refendum (which opinion polls say would now go the other way) as meaning we should take the most extreme option available from the winning side was always ridiculous, self-harming and frankly un-British considering our values of moderation and sensible compromise. Thankfully, it now seems like a mixture of our weak negotiating position and there being a handful of Tory MPs happy to put country before party means that hard Brexit is pretty much dead. Good riddance.

Incidentally, two of the key warnings of the remain campaign were of economic damage and the fact that we would have a weak hand in negotiations. On the first, we've gone from being the fastest growing member of the G8 to the slowest. Our economy is barely moving forward at a time when most of the world (including the Eurozone!) is steaming along. On the second, well, look at the terms of that exit deal. Every time the press report that we have 'reached an agreement', it can be roughly translated as us having capitulated to the demands of the EU, because they hold all the cards. It's humiliating, but hey, us remoaners never promised it would be anything other than that.

The EU and the single market are single entities ???  So how come when the public voted to join the European Union in the early 70's they thought it was for the Common Market.  Not until Major signed away ALL our rights did we find we were handcuffed to the mess we are in today.  Despite the BBC's bias remoaner reporting, we are ( and will do ) very well thank you.
Does DNA stand for National Dyslexia Association?----asking for a friend.

Adam

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #664 on: December 24, 2017, 09:37:28 PM »
It seems you spend many hours reading up on this Brexit business Adam and we should all be grateful you passing on the opinions /speculations sourced .   Like you I am critical and distrustful of most politicians and rightly so , but I do think many have had actual experience of complex business transactions unlike many of those telling us how it should be done .

I think many underestimate their skills and knowledge ,  I am sure right from the beginning they knew about border problems etc ,

I heartily disagree - I don't think it's possible to underestimate how out of touch and ill informed most (leave supporting) politicians are with the commercial world. The Leave campaign was led by Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, neither of whom has ever known much other than Oxford University followed by a career in journalism and then switching to politics. It's a pretty open secret that the former backed leave for little reason beyond his own ambitions to reach an office far beyond what his abilities merit (unfortunately he has succeeded by somehow making Foreign Secretary). David Davis wrote an article saying that he expected the UK to have agreed free trade deals with multiple countries within 12-24 months of the vote - apparently blind to the fact doing so would be illegal. We're 18 months on and have only just agreed the outline terms of separation with the EU. (And by agreed, I essentially mean accepted all of their demands!)

The Tory back benches are laden with right wing ideologues who either have no real world experience or who have been sitting in safe seats for so long that they've long since forgotten all of it (I'm thinking of the John Redwoods of the world). They live in a fantasy world where they stoke up their own irrational hatred of the EU, and are happy to push for a cliff edge exit just to satisfy their own fetish like obsession - and damn the consequences on their constituents...

If you were interested in the views of those who have actual experience of running businesses, wouldn't it make sense to look at the business lobbies, which overwhelmingly backed remain?

green hats mate

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #665 on: December 25, 2017, 11:55:17 AM »
It seems you spend many hours reading up on this Brexit business Adam and we should all be grateful you passing on the opinions /speculations sourced .   Like you I am critical and distrustful of most politicians and rightly so , but I do think many have had actual experience of complex business transactions unlike many of those telling us how it should be done .

I think many underestimate their skills and knowledge ,  I am sure right from the beginning they knew about border problems etc ,

I heartily disagree - I don't think it's possible to underestimate how out of touch and ill informed most (leave supporting) politicians are with the commercial world. The Leave campaign was led by Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, neither of whom has ever known much other than Oxford University followed by a career in journalism and then switching to politics. It's a pretty open secret that the former backed leave for little reason beyond his own ambitions to reach an office far beyond what his abilities merit (unfortunately he has succeeded by somehow making Foreign Secretary). David Davis wrote an article saying that he expected the UK to have agreed free trade deals with multiple countries within 12-24 months of the vote - apparently blind to the fact doing so would be illegal. We're 18 months on and have only just agreed the outline terms of separation with the EU. (And by agreed, I essentially mean accepted all of their demands!)

The Tory back benches are laden with right wing ideologues who either have no real world experience or who have been sitting in safe seats for so long that they've long since forgotten all of it (I'm thinking of the John Redwoods of the world). They live in a fantasy world where they stoke up their own irrational hatred of the EU, and are happy to push for a cliff edge exit just to satisfy their own fetish like obsession - and damn the consequences on their constituents...

If you were interested in the views of those who have actual experience of running businesses, wouldn't it make sense to look at the business lobbies, which overwhelmingly backed remain?

What about the overwhelming business lobby who backed leave ?.

Overall I plead ignorance on the correct outcome but certainly many I speak to are well up to the challange that brexit brings , 
others who have profited from EU grants are not suprisingly on the remain side,  the same view I would take if I was in their position   .  Certainly the scarcemongering predictions of the remainers have proofed just that .  No signs of financial disaster at Boston post brexit vote as predicted by the remainers .

Apart from above local gleamings the only other source of views I have is the media ,  all of who have their own agenda and feed off politicians with a view to match their own .   So again biased in one direction or other and of no constructive use to form a firm opinion .
We should heed the words of Pete B ,  lies , lies and more lies is what we are fed by both sides .

Unless someone comes on and reveals a genuine and independent source of facts (not speculation) the thead will remain what it has been all along ,   a platform to present ideas which will not have the slightest effect on the outcome .

Remainers :  some of their claims will be right ,  some wrong! .              Brexit : again some right ,some wrong !

No one side have a monopoly of the facts or truth .

Forget brexit and enjoy a happy new year . :)

Want to back a winner ?   Craig Elliott is your man  :)
« Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 11:59:43 AM by green hats mate »

John Murphy

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #666 on: February 28, 2018, 06:15:10 PM »
With Corbyn wanting a customs union ( would help the Irish border ) and Major ( I signed you up to this mess) wanting another referendum ( bad loser get over it ). 120 page draft published today making Northern Ireland to stand alone in a customs union.  This is messy, but to those that voted out, it was always going to be.

Pete B

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #667 on: March 01, 2018, 09:41:11 AM »
With Corbyn wanting a customs union ( would help the Irish border ) and Major ( I signed you up to this mess) wanting another referendum ( bad loser get over it ). 120 page draft published today making Northern Ireland to stand alone in a customs union.  This is messy, but to those that voted out, it was always going to be.

And as predicted two years ago by anyone who bothered to actually think about it, now it's all going wrong the "let's just leave NOW!!!!" brigade are pinning all the blame on the EU, who are of course merely sticking by red lines which the UK government has known of all along but had no idea how to satisfy.

But no - the EU are the 'enemy'.... haha, okay. Honestly, this whole thing might as well have been scripted. It would be hysterical if there weren't actual lives at stake over it.

lonegunman

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #668 on: March 01, 2018, 11:00:35 AM »
Easy, just tell them to feck off, simple.  ;)
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John Murphy

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #669 on: March 01, 2018, 12:54:14 PM »
Easy, just tell them to feck off, simple.  ;)

I am in the same frame of mind, after seeing " Darkest Hour " last night >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

Pete B

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #670 on: March 01, 2018, 04:27:06 PM »
Easy, just tell them to feck off, simple.  ;)

A practical impossibility given the infrastructure we need to "just walk away" doesn't actually exist and won't exist for several years yet, which is exactly why the Government are begging the EU for a transitional deal.

Still good to know that two years on people are still living in a weird alternate reality where stuff like this doesn't matter and you can just do what you like...

Also, telling the EU to "feck off" would mean an Irish border - you really want to ruin the lives of people over there, and possibly reignite violence, just to secure your version of Brexit? Really?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 04:35:19 PM by Pete B »

Dipdodah

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #671 on: March 01, 2018, 05:02:17 PM »
When a Democracy, refuses to implement the result of it's own democratic voting system, it " ceases to be a democracy ". I hope all involved keeps this in mind.
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howmanynames2pick

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #672 on: March 01, 2018, 06:16:20 PM »
Pete B   I don't know you but you appear quite erudite and well educated and I do respect your opinion.  What is it about the corrupt Brussels quango you find so attractive??
I voted in back in the day...IN being a free trade agreement..simple as... I didn't get asked about  a euro currency a European commission a European commission a European parliament... I suspect your politics may be left of centre and I have no issues with that but look back at what Michael Foot and Peter Shore tried to tell us back at the last referendum... I as a younger voter didn't listen... but in hindsight they were right..
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 08:02:27 PM by howmanynames2pick »

Artemis

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #673 on: March 01, 2018, 06:36:14 PM »
Why didn't the remainers state that to leave there would be a price - namely the divorce bill of over £50bn.

I suspect the result of the referendum would have been entirely different.

lonegunman

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #674 on: March 01, 2018, 07:00:34 PM »
I've said this before, I voted OUT because I don't trust them. All these faceless people, who are they, what are they up to?
I don't trust the lot that got voted in here, thieving, conniving, bastards!
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between.
Oscar Wilde
When Confronted By A Difficult Problem, You Can Solve It More Easily By Reducing It To The Question, "How Would The Lone Ranger Have Handled This?