Author Topic: O/T In or out  (Read 326892 times)

Adam

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #735 on: July 13, 2018, 02:57:51 PM »
Quote from: Pete B link=topic=6248.msg104626#msg104626
Actually, you don't need to answer that. You clearly do think it's a price worth paying, or you wouldn't still be calling those seeking to preserve business interests as traitors. Millions of people think the same. So in some ways, I'm starting to come around to Janan Ganesh thoughts, who said "Brexit is an idea whose only effective rebuttal is its own implementation." Much like prohibition, perhaps we need to actually suffer a hard Brexit for you to finally comprehend why it's such a terrible, terrible idea.

I think I agree - as much as I’d like the current turmoil to result in the whole stupid thing being scrapped, I think in the long run it would simply result in an ultra-toxic political environment where we bounce between hard left socialists selected by Momentum uni students, and right wing headcases like Rees-Mogg. You only have to look at this thread to see that. The idea that Whitehall is some sort of Illuminati organisation seeking to make us a satellite state of Brussels is ludicrous. In reality, they’re hard working and intelligent professionals seeking to do the best for Britain (damage limitation) in spite of the hopelessness of their political bosses. ‘Lions led by donkeys’ is a strong phrase, but in the right spirit here. But people clearly believe the former.

One problem is probably the fact that a genuine ‘no-deal’ Brexit is so astonishingly catastrophic that it is hard to believe. The Independent ran an article the other day highlighting the fact that if the all-Ireland single energy market is not preserved (it wouldn’t be by default), the government is looking at recquisitoning thousands of military electricity generators from places like Afghanistan and putting them on barges in the Irish Sea, just to keep the lights in NI. It’s insane. People like Boris Johnson prefer to take part in photo shoots of their resignation letters rather than think about details like these.

Obviously the trouble with trying hard Brexit and then seeking to rejoin the EU/EEA once we realise it’s a disaster has the disadvantage that we will lose our budget rebate and probably our Euro/Schengen opt outs too.

I find it simply incredible that people still side with the likes of Johnson and Davis, throwing their toys out of the pram and criticising May’s attempt at compromise. Not once have Brexiteers offered any sort of plan for the future relationship themselves. They’re simply overgrown manchildren - the small time teenage vandals who’ve accidentally set fire to the church and then sit back and criticise the efforts of the fire service to put it out.

Pete B

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #736 on: July 13, 2018, 03:11:04 PM »
Quote from: Pete B link=topic=6248.msg104626#msg104626
Actually, you don't need to answer that. You clearly do think it's a price worth paying, or you wouldn't still be calling those seeking to preserve business interests as traitors. Millions of people think the same. So in some ways, I'm starting to come around to Janan Ganesh thoughts, who said "Brexit is an idea whose only effective rebuttal is its own implementation." Much like prohibition, perhaps we need to actually suffer a hard Brexit for you to finally comprehend why it's such a terrible, terrible idea.

I think I agree - as much as I’d like the current turmoil to result in the whole stupid thing being scrapped, I think in the long run it would simply result in an ultra-toxic political environment where we bounce between hard left socialists selected by Momentum uni students, and right wing headcases like Rees-Mogg. You only have to look at this thread to see that. The idea that Whitehall is some sort of Illuminati organisation seeking to make us a satellite state of Brussels is ludicrous. In reality, they’re hard working and intelligent professionals seeking to do the best for Britain (damage limitation) in spite of the hopelessness of their political bosses. ‘Lions led by donkeys’ is a strong phrase, but in the right spirit here. But people clearly believe the former.

One problem is probably the fact that a genuine ‘no-deal’ Brexit is so astonishingly catastrophic that it is hard to believe. The Independent ran an article the other day highlighting the fact that if the all-Ireland single energy market is not preserved (it wouldn’t be by default), the government is looking at recquisitoning thousands of military electricity generators from places like Afghanistan and putting them on barges in the Irish Sea, just to keep the lights in NI. It’s insane. People like Boris Johnson prefer to take part in photo shoots of their resignation letters rather than think about details like these.

Obviously the trouble with trying hard Brexit and then seeking to rejoin the EU/EEA once we realise it’s a disaster has the disadvantage that we will lose our budget rebate and probably our Euro/Schengen opt outs too.

I find it simply incredible that people still side with the likes of Johnson and Davis, throwing their toys out of the pram and criticising May’s attempt at compromise. Not once have Brexiteers offered any sort of plan for the future relationship themselves. They’re simply overgrown manchildren - the small time teenage vandals who’ve accidentally set fire to the church and then sit back and criticise the efforts of the fire service to put it out.

Absolutely this.

But of course, if you try dealing with facts and reality rather than baseless ideology and "out means out" delusion, you simply get accused of "patronising the plebs" or "overturning democracy" - both of which are demonstrably false. It's perfectly possible, if very difficult, to respect the result of the referendum while maintaining close enough ties to our largest trading partner such that our economy isn't bulldozed into the dirt.

We're nearly 50 pages into this thread now and there's still not been a single cogent argument advanced for leaving the EU that can't be demolished in about 10 seconds.

So let's have "no deal" then - and we'll see who's right.

Dipdodah

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #737 on: July 16, 2018, 08:55:39 AM »
Justine Greening today calls for a second referendum >:(

She wants the voting paper to have three options.

1,   Remain in the EU

2,  Mrs May's proposals

3,  No deal

I did not hear the option of leave.  So let's put the vote back to the public, ponce it up a little bit, and make sure voters in London get off their backsides and vote and they get the result they wanted in the first place.  A cunning plan to show democracy lives me thinks >:(
Never keep up with the Joneses, drag them down to your level ...............it's cheaper.

Winging It

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #738 on: July 16, 2018, 10:31:07 AM »
All this 'we're right and was always right' coming from the remain camp is ludicrous, name a couple of things which were predicted by project fear which have materialized thus far?!  The Brexit result was simple, people DID know what they were voting for...Cameron stated pre-voting that a vote to leave is a vote to leave the single market. People knew that a leave vote was to also demand breaking ties with the EU's laws, gaining control of our borders with stricter immigration control, bringing back control of our fishing grounds, investment in UK jobs for UK workers, money saved from the EU bill put into things like the NHS etc etc....


Why are so many European Countries now finding themselves seeing such right-wing parties heading their polls if nothing is wrong with the EU? A pattern is forming, so many people in so many nations are seeing that the EU is a broken project and they are voting accordingly especially in nations under pressure from mass uncontrolled immigration. We can't get away from the latter, it is a problem which has upset so many societies and in Boston alone is the main reason over 75% voted out.

Accceptance of the Brexit result was never going to happen, there will always be, like in football, those on a winning side and those on a loosing side. But as in football, when you don't like the result you cannot demand a replay!

I am sure i will get shot down for my views, but after all, they are just that...my views. I don't proclaim that they are right nor wrong, but the same goes for the remain camp, we believe in our views. But we have to now just get on with each other and get on with Brexit as it was a clearly understood vote both before and afterwards.

Pete B

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #739 on: July 16, 2018, 11:05:44 AM »
Justine Greening today calls for a second referendum >:(

She wants the voting paper to have three options.

1,   Remain in the EU

2,  Mrs May's proposals

3,  No deal

I did not hear the option of leave.  So let's put the vote back to the public, ponce it up a little bit, and make sure voters in London get off their backsides and vote and they get the result they wanted in the first place.  A cunning plan to show democracy lives me thinks >:(

"No deal" is the Brexit you want though isn't it?

The problem you have is that if the stark consequences of such a deal are laid out to the electorate, no sane person would vote for it. It's suicide. And since we've not actually bothered building any of the infrastructure needed to implement it, it's a good 5-6 years before you'll get it. And that's assuming the legal issues with WTO rules and the border in ROI can be resolved.

Champs next year

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #740 on: July 16, 2018, 02:54:35 PM »
Justine Greening today calls for a second referendum >:(

She wants the voting paper to have three options.

1,   Remain in the EU

2,  Mrs May's proposals

3,  No deal

I did not hear the option of leave.  So let's put the vote back to the public, ponce it up a little bit, and make sure voters in London get off their backsides and vote and they get the result they wanted in the first place.  A cunning plan to show democracy lives me thinks >:(

"No deal" is the Brexit you want though isn't it?

The problem you have is that if the stark consequences of such a deal are laid out to the electorate, no sane person would vote for it. It's suicide. And since we've not actually bothered building any of the infrastructure needed to implement it, it's a good 5-6 years before you'll get it. And that's assuming the legal issues with WTO rules and the border in ROI can be resolved.

Burn down the Disco hang the blessed dj because the music that they constantly play it says nothing to me about my Life.

Pete B

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #741 on: July 16, 2018, 03:57:34 PM »
Quoting a Smiths line about your life being miserable ain't gonna build you a 500 acre lorry park in Kent.

Champs next year

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #742 on: July 16, 2018, 09:20:20 PM »
Quoting a Smiths line about your life being miserable ain't gonna build you a 500 acre lorry park in Kent.

You have given so much evidence on a BUFC football forum that u & dip brexit who ever will always b "The boys with the Thorns in their Sides"

Pete B

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #743 on: July 17, 2018, 08:09:45 AM »
@ Green Hats Mate

My local MP is Vernon Coaker (Labour). You can see his voting record on Brexit here: https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?id=uk.org.publicwhip/member/41629&showall=yes#divisions

Ed Kandii

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #744 on: September 21, 2018, 06:55:31 PM »


Your decision. Nobody else’s. Not politician’s, not Parliament’s. Not lobby groups. Not mine. Just you. You, the British people, will decide. At that moment, you will hold this country’s destiny in your hands. This is a huge decision for our country, perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes. And it will be the final decision. So to those who suggest that a decision in the referendum to leave would merely produce another stronger renegotiation and then a second referendum in which Britain would stay, I say think again. And the referendum that follows will be a once in a generation choice. An in or out referendum. When the British people speak, their voice will be respected, not ignored. If we vote to leave, then we will leave. There will not be another renegotiation and another referendum. Prime Minister David Cameron. June 2016.

Remainers and Soros cohorts,  please read the above.  :police:

Pete B

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #745 on: September 21, 2018, 09:45:37 PM »


Your decision. Nobody else’s. Not politician’s, not Parliament’s. Not lobby groups. Not mine. Just you. You, the British people, will decide. At that moment, you will hold this country’s destiny in your hands. This is a huge decision for our country, perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes. And it will be the final decision. So to those who suggest that a decision in the referendum to leave would merely produce another stronger renegotiation and then a second referendum in which Britain would stay, I say think again. And the referendum that follows will be a once in a generation choice. An in or out referendum. When the British people speak, their voice will be respected, not ignored. If we vote to leave, then we will leave. There will not be another renegotiation and another referendum. Prime Minister David Cameron. June 2016.

Remainers and Soros cohorts,  please read the above.  :police:

Can you please explain the "Soros cohorts" bit there mate?

green hats mate

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #746 on: September 22, 2018, 08:07:56 AM »
Easier one to answer for the locals ....

Can anyone explain why all the media is overloaded with Brexit ?   likewise so are a overwhelming number of MPs twitter accounts.

Yet I cannot remember the last time our MP uttered the word . :police:

Pete B

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #747 on: September 22, 2018, 10:37:39 AM »
Easier one to answer for the locals ....

Can anyone explain why all the media is overloaded with Brexit ?   likewise so are a overwhelming number of MPs twitter accounts.

Yet I cannot remember the last time our MP uttered the word . :police:

He does talk about it, but Warman just repeats what his boss says. He's one of those MPs who simply doesn't have an opinion at odds with the official party line, unlike Rees-Mogg or Soubry.

Cameron: "We must stay in the EU!"
Warman: "Yes, we must stay in the EU!"

May: "The people have spoken, we must leave the EU!"
Warman: "Yes, we must leave!!"

If the next Tory leader decides to ditch Brexit, you can bet he'll back that too. He just wants a cabinet position.

You lot blather on about hating career politicians only in it for themselves. Well, you elected one.

Ed Kandii

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #748 on: September 22, 2018, 12:34:05 PM »

Can you please explain the "Soros cohorts" bit there mate?
.

"And it will be the final decision. So to those who suggest that a decision in the referendum to leave would merely produce another stronger renegotiation and then a second referendum in which Britain would stay, I say think again. And the referendum that follows will be a once in a generation choice. An in or out referendum. When the British people speak, their voice will be respected, not ignored. If we vote to leave, then we will leave. There will not be another renegotiation and another referendum."

There you go me owde mucker... democracy in action. Seems plain enough english even for the likes of Blair, Major, Clegg, Cable etc and, of course, the man funding these people attempting to overturn the democratic process .  :police:

green hats mate

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #749 on: September 22, 2018, 07:04:48 PM »
Easier one to answer for the locals ....

Can anyone explain why all the media is overloaded with Brexit ?   likewise so are a overwhelming number of MPs twitter accounts.

Yet I cannot remember the last time our MP uttered the word . :police:

He does talk about it, but Warman just repeats what his boss says. He's one of those MPs who simply doesn't have an opinion at odds with the official party line, unlike Rees-Mogg or Soubry.

Cameron: "We must stay in the EU!"
Warman: "Yes, we must stay in the EU!"

May: "The people have spoken, we must leave the EU!"
Warman: "Yes, we must leave!!"

If the next Tory leader decides to ditch Brexit, you can bet he'll back that too. He just wants a cabinet position.

You lot blather on about hating career politicians only in it for themselves. Well, you elected one.

Most constituencies do the same Pete , usually no options with all candidates tarred with the same brush .


Options ?    abstain from voting ,  or the French option,  spoil the ballot paper to display your objection to all the candidates .


Difficult to understand how the tories get such a big vote in a town with the biggest percentage of household with incomes below the living wage .    Then again I would think that fact shows why there was a big leave vote .