Author Topic: O/T In or out  (Read 398322 times)

Dipdodah

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #570 on: June 09, 2017, 12:45:59 PM »
Where does yesterday's result leave Brexit?
The older I get, the earlier it gets late

Pete Brooksbank

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #571 on: June 09, 2017, 01:48:52 PM »
Hopefully takes hard Brexit off the table at least - the people have spoken: they don't want it. Oh well! 8)

Dipdodah

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #572 on: June 09, 2017, 06:06:07 PM »
It's been a while since I last commented on this thread, though I am happy to have been in at the beginning. So far I have seen my hopes realised and that we are well on the way to reclaiming our independence. The forthcoming election is really about one thing and that is our independence. Although a life long socialist, I will be backing Teresa May to finish the job.

However, although I may not be around to see it, as I have inoperable liver cancer and have no idea how long I have left, I predict that the Labour Party will eventually find a moderate socialist leader who will carry the country on many of the policies which are proving to be popular despite the current leader. Winston Churchill lead us successfully in a battle for survival, but then saw the country come out in favour of socialist policies, which gave us institutions which we take for granted today. I think that history will repeat itself. If it does, then I hope that a future Labour government is not as naive as some of those in the past, but treads carefully. One final thought: We must continue as Great Britain. Let's tolerate none of this nonsense about splitting up into rump states.

I hope you have many more years left, and I hope the NHS is still here to give you support.  I, like you have voted Labour all my life, but we need an hard Brexit and I hate to admit it but we may get this with May.  Listening to Labour's manifesto yesterday, I think like you, under a different leader they would succeed.  Take care.

Well the outcome is not so clear cut.  Labour are making inroads into the Tory lead.  A week as gone by since above post and I think Corbyn is coming through this campaign in a lot better shape than May.  In my opinion the worst thing for this country, is if any party has a Thatcher type massive majority.  We do not want a hung parliament with Brexit talks just round the corner, but a small majority to keep them on their toes would be ideal.

This just what we did n't want
The older I get, the earlier it gets late

Ed Kandi

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #573 on: June 09, 2017, 06:52:04 PM »
We keep freedom of movement, we keep paying into the EU coffers, we are unable to make free-trade deals with countries outside of the EU, and we are unable to make our own laws...sounds like an idyllic soft Brexit, and the way big business wanted it to go   ;)
We'd be out of the EU, but still subject to all the parts of it that we voted against...the laughing stock of Europe and any parts of the rest of the world that were remotely interested.

Or we could keep pushing on for the correct Brexit that the democratic majority voted for, under whatever form of government emerges from this mess  :police:

Adam

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #574 on: June 10, 2017, 03:53:07 PM »
Hopefully takes hard Brexit off the table at least - the people have spoken: they don't want it. Oh well! 8)

Yep. I've no real idea what to make of the result. I'm still firmly of the view that Corbyn is an idiot, but he might - entirety by accident - have turned out to be quite a useful idiot. Hard Brexit is dead in the water and I can see a possible path to it being binned full stop. If Labour came out against it in the inevitable election later this year, I might even think about voting for them. Until that election, May basically has to be incredibly nice to Anna Soubry and Ken Clarke. Lolz.

green hats mate

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #575 on: June 10, 2017, 08:24:49 PM »
We have no actual experience or facts to judge the long term outcome or effect of Brexit .
As a lifetime Tory voter my reading of the situation is thus ..
Do I make a decision on the judgement of three hapless failed politicians , Cameron , May and Osbourne ?  three advocates of sticking with the EU.
Judging from the enormous amount of lies , misjudgement,  mismanagement and U turns this terrible trio have done following their judgement is in my opinion  not wise .    I stick with the majority vote of the referendum .

Maybe our problem is the public made the right decision at the referendum but we do not have the politicians to deliver .
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 08:28:25 PM by green hats mate »

Ed Kandi

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #576 on: June 10, 2017, 09:03:55 PM »
This 'terrible trio'' all agreed that a Brexit vote meant leaving the Single Market, so nothings changed, unless there was a second referendum that I've missed!  :o

Steviemas

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #577 on: June 10, 2017, 09:47:55 PM »
Agreed, either they deliver the Brexit the public voted for, leaving the single market and the custom union or watch the upsurge in the ukip vote if they do a backslide as Farage fears they might.
 One shining light from the election is that the youth who voted have thankfully been spared the delusions of Corbyns' ideological nonsense, boy would they have been so disappointed.

Pete Brooksbank

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #578 on: June 12, 2017, 01:26:09 PM »
This 'terrible trio'' all agreed that a Brexit vote meant leaving the Single Market, so nothings changed, unless there was a second referendum that I've missed!  :o

Actually, quite a lot has now changed: despite the bluster of David Davies today, the Government can no longer force a hard brexit through Parliament. Any attempt to do so now would fail, since a sizable number of Tories also agree it would be a stupid thing to do and are mobilising today to force Theresa May to reconsider.

The mooted cross-party Brexit working group would also dismiss a hard brexit out of hand too. The facts and evidence point to it being a complete catastrophe, and an increasing number of MPs now believe it would be an act of obscene stupidity to pursue it.

And no, the country certainly did not vote for it - only those who worry they're not going to get what they wanted are trying to suggest it was and that to go for a 'soft brexit' is somehow subverting the 'will of the people'. Give me a break. The Norway solution was advocated by the leave campaign on numerous occasions, and having closely watched both campaigns the EEA problem was very rarely mentioned (I remember shouting at the TV during several of the debates). Indeed, go back far enough on this thread and you'll see I brought it up at the time, long before before the penny had dropped.

green hats mate

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #579 on: June 12, 2017, 08:59:48 PM »
This 'terrible trio'' all agreed that a Brexit vote meant leaving the Single Market, so nothings changed, unless there was a second referendum that I've missed!  :o

Actually, quite a lot has now changed: despite the bluster of David Davies today, the Government can no longer force a hard brexit through Parliament. Any attempt to do so now would fail, since a sizable number of Tories also agree it would be a stupid thing to do and are mobilising today to force Theresa May to reconsider.

The mooted cross-party Brexit working group would also dismiss a hard brexit out of hand too. The facts and evidence point to it being a complete catastrophe, and an increasing number of MPs now believe it would be an act of obscene stupidity to pursue it.

And no, the country certainly did not vote for it - only those who worry they're not going to get what they wanted are trying to suggest it was and that to go for a 'soft brexit' is somehow subverting the 'will of the people'. Give me a break. The Norway solution was advocated by the leave campaign on numerous occasions, and having closely watched both campaigns the EEA problem was very rarely mentioned (I remember shouting at the TV during several of the debates). Indeed, go back far enough on this thread and you'll see I brought it up at the time, long before before the penny had dropped.

I would think that all the MP,s referred to above and many more would have assured us 6 weeks ago that May would win with a big majority .   Many MP,s appear to be hapless but never underestimate their ability to lie , scheme and stab a colleague in the back .
Many ,many more twists and turns in the pipeline .  No history to  guide us to guessing the correct outcome , only speculation from politicians , bankers and various experts ,  we all know where their advice has got us in the past .

Dipdodah has now lured us into submitting almost 700 posts expressing an opinion on a  subject if we are honest we do not know the answer to .      I think the only thing established so far is many of us have as much spare time on our hands as Dipdodah . :)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 09:10:22 PM by green hats mate »

Ed Kandi

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #580 on: June 13, 2017, 10:45:49 AM »
This 'terrible trio'' all agreed that a Brexit vote meant leaving the Single Market, so nothings changed, unless there was a second referendum that I've missed!  :o
At 8.10am yesterday, on the Today programme, David Davis stated that nothing had changed with the government's plans for Brexit.
At 7.20 this morning on the same programme Harriet Harman stated that the Labour party Brexit policy was to leave the Single Market and Customs Union.

It seems pretty clear that the policies of the main parties are for a 'clean' Brexit.

I always thought that referendum was an in/in referendum as,whatever the result, big business and the big money, would
ensure that any attempt to leave the Single Market would be voted down. I still believe that is what will happen and atm we are going through the motions of an elaborate charade.
The longer it goes on the worse the repercussions will be when millions of people realise that we are out of the EU in name only, and still subject to everything that we were promised would end if we voted out   :police:

Pete Brooksbank

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #581 on: June 13, 2017, 01:22:15 PM »
You are correct: the official party line for both Labour and the Tories is to pursue a clean break, but you surely can't have failed to notice the growing noises from the backbenches of both parties to soften this stance, simply because of the huge damage it will cause.

Will either party change course? Yes, I think they will have to as reality sets in. But - and this is a big but - perhaps it's already too late. I've just been reading an interesting article in the Financial Times today which says that France and Germany will try and push us towards a hard brexit regardless of any moves here to avoid one. They know that if that's the route we choose they can basically cripple our economy and take supply-chain critical manufacturing jobs off us, such as Airbus, as well as financial passporting.

Catastrophe for us, but since the carnage that hard brexit will cause seems to have not yet sunk with with the electorate, France and Germany see an historic opportunity to nudge us off the edge of the cliff knowing that UK politicians who attempt to resist will be branded traitors at home. They must be absolutely loving all this. We're basically gifting them jobs so we can do some trade deals with New Zealand, or something.

Adam

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #582 on: June 13, 2017, 06:31:58 PM »
Labour's manifesto was definitely vague enough to allow them to demand single market membership the moment one person's job is placed on notice because of Brexit...

I've always thought that, if the economy tanks and chaos unfolds in broad daylight, we might end up reversing the whole thing - but up until a week ago, that scenario looked vanishingly unlikely, as Theresa May had bought (an illusion of) stability. But this 'government' probably makes that scenario plausible again.

Prime Minister Corbyn in a year's time will be amusing, if nothing else.

Maxross

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #583 on: June 13, 2017, 09:52:09 PM »
There has never been the mandate for the so called "hard brexit". Many who voted were led to believe they were getting all the benefits of a soft brexit with none of the pitfalls of hard brexit. The elephant in the room is that it simply can't be delivered in the form in which it was sold. A hard brexit will undoubtably lead to economic hardship, whilst a soft brexit will leave many feeling cheated. 

Either way I stand by my original statement that by voting out, we will end up in a significantly weaker position whichever path we take - "hard" or "soft".  I respect the result of the referendum, however dubious I considered the result, being based on a campaign of wilful misinformation. However, I think it would do those in power (and those who voted leave) good to remember that 48% of the population voted remain.  We may begrudgingly accept the result, but that does not give consent to the ultra brexiteers to pursue their extreme version of Brexit.  It is the job of the government to recognise the wishes of ALL its subjects and govern accordingly.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 02:08:23 AM by Maxross »

Ed Kandi

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Re: O/T In or out
« Reply #584 on: June 16, 2017, 10:52:44 PM »
There's been another referendum apparently  :police:
72 hours before negotiations begin and the Chancellor is saying that the majority of people favour a soft Brexit.
A business-friendly Brexit is what we're heading for, leaving the EU without actually leaving it, in order to keep the money men happy.  That would be the same people who just got away with mass corporate manslaughter yesterday as soon as May announced that the investigation into the London fire would be 'Judge-led', corporate-speak for a cover up.

Now there's a surprise, a real laugh out loud moment... 
Mrs May may as well resign now because there's riots on the streets of London tonight and even bigger trouble ahead  :police: :police: :police: