Pilgrims' Patter
The Forum => The B-Ark => Topic started by: Ed Kandi on December 29, 2009, 07:50:34 PM
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Due to the big queue outside the Spayne Rd, we made a rare excursion into the main stand on Boxing Day.
We did a quick hypothetical excercise, while waiting for a burger :rudolph, into the way the stand has been constructed, the easiest way to take it down, transport it, and then reassemble it somewhere else, when the fateful day arrives and BUFC has to relocate to a new ground. :'(
With the Malkies wanting to sell the ground its going to happen sooner or later and, whether the club is still being run by the Chestnuts or has been handed over to the Trust, the relocation will have to be done as efficiently as possible to keep costs from spiralling.
So the question is, do the Malkies own the structures around the ground or do they belong to the club?
I remember Bob Lee asking a similar question, but I'm not sure if it was answered.
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good question well presented.as there has been many different boards along the way i.e scumflow,chestnunts they have all been renting the ground so if it is any thing like renting a house and you make an improvement to the said property you would lose what you have done and so benefit the landlord i would think.
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yes the stands was built from the accounts of bufc(fund raising etc). All structures around the ground belong to the club.
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The club may own the structures, but to install them at a new ground will require them to be fit for current building legislation, which they may well not be...
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I am pretty confident that it has been said that the club owns the actual stands, as it goes back to when the fans helped fundraise etc. for the building of them. The Malkinsons only own the premises on which they're situated I think.
Either way, I don't know much about these things but surely we wouldn't be able to transport the stands? Anyway, I am sure the Chestnuts will ensure that costs are kept to a minimum, and I can imagine that the seats at least would be used as part of a new ground. There will be lots of ways we can save money. If we could transport whole stands I would only take the Main Stand and Town End anyway. It's a long way away yet though, and I should imagine that if anyone can do this ground move successfully it is our Board. I say have faith, and if we do whatever they ask of us it should go to (an expensive) plan!
Well thats good, if the Malkies owned them they'd be cashing in on the structural steelwork!
The stands consist of 3 main structural elements; foundations, steel frame, and the pre-cast concrete units.
Its all bolted together like meccano. The frame is bolted down to the foundations, and then the concrete units are lifted into place and bolted up. The rest of it is a bit of insitu concrete followed by whatever blockwork you need for burger bar etc. Thats your basic structure...there's no reason why it can't be taken down in the reverse order, obviously you wouldn't be transporting the foundations anywhere.
A`structural engineer would soon tell you if it was possible to get it past the planners etc, the bolted connections would probably need strengthening, and the framework itself might need beefing up in places to meet current legislation.
Benton Bros could do a deal on a couple of lorries ;)
You'd have to do the new foundations, then take the Townend and Spayne in the first year. The main stand would go the following year, leaving the York Street stand as a memorial to the old place.
Some of the grounds in this division are pretty poor, so it could be possible (if we are still in the unibond) to have a season at york street without the Townend and the Spayne :o :o what a mind boggling thought!
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I got a screwdriver set in my cracker if that helps.
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A cheaper and better alternative is to build a new stand.
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surely all the metal work will have a very decent scrap value if nothing else!
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Why would you reuse a structure that is over 30 years old?
The cost to remove and install, the cost to transport, it's more viable to build a new structure.
I am doing a project at the moment that reuses an existing structure, it very difficult, there is a cost benefit to us, but it's more a sustainability benefit than a financial one
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It is only viable if it can be dismantled and rebuild by threenils cracker screwdriver.
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We may need more crackers - I'm not doing it all on my own.
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Wasn't Pescod Hall picked up and popped on a set of skates to be moved for the new shops?
Trundling the main stand down to the boardsides at 1/2 mile hour would not hold up anyones journey any more than normal!
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Might struggle a bit with the roundabouts! :D
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I would expect the new ground to be in the NW or SW sectors of 'Greater Boston ' ..away from Town Centre bottlenecks ..
If there was land by the Haven that would be good ..like Middlesboro's ..
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This was a hypothetical scenario, fuelled by Batemans :xmashat
But there are advantages...
Why would you reuse a structure that is over 30 years old?
If you can't afford to buy another one, then why not recycle the one that you already have ???
The cost to remove and install, the cost to transport, it's more viable to build a new structure.
The transport costs would be less, the installation costs would be similar, the removal costs would be less than the cost of buying brand new steel and having a load more pre-cast concrete units made up.
I am doing a project at the moment that reuses an existing structure, it very difficult, there is a cost benefit to us, but it's more a sustainability benefit than a financial one
What sort of structure are you reusing in your project?
Several years ago I worked on the Notts County ground when they were putting up a few new stands. Its a simple enough process, it seemed to take longer to fit out the all the internal areas underneath than it took to bolt the rest of it together!
Biggest problem with taking down structures like these is breaking out the insitu concrete...but there's several ways of getting around that.
The post-Hillsborough Health and Safety legislation would probably prevent such a project anyway, so it looks like York street will be flattened by the demolition contractors and sold off for scrap. :'(
If we have enough bucket collections we might even be able to afford a new one :dan
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I am currently project managing a scheme that reuses an existing steel structure, which we are adding to increase the roof height. this is a £22 million scheme, I am also the project manager on 4 other schemes totalling £40 million, I think it's probably safe to say I know what I am talking about.
It isn't my intention to throw cold water on your ideas, everything is up for debate, but I have said before, it's the infrastructure, and fit out that costs the money, the structure is relatively less cost, there are other ways to save money, rather than using structures exposed to the elements for 30 years.
An effective Tendering process, along with good project management and tight brief control, will deliver value.
The challenge will be generating money, a bigger challenge than saving it. Check today's press on Southend united.
Always happy to discuss over a batemans!!
Always happy to discuss over a batemans!!
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I am currently project managing a scheme that reuses an existing steel structure, which we are adding to increase the roof height.
Are you adding an extra storey to the existing steel structure, or putting the steelwork on top of the newly built part?
it's the infrastructure, and fit out that costs the money, the structure is relatively less cost, there are other ways to save money, rather than using structures exposed to the elements for 30 years.
The infrastructure consisting of drainage, a road, parking areas, services etc ... cost dependent on distance from existing road drainage etc and would have to be paid whatever structure is used.
Fit out could initially be fairly basic, and could be added to in time...also not dependent on the structure
An effective Tendering process, along with good project management and tight brief control, will deliver value.
Yes, but that would apply to any new build, using any structure.
The challenge will be generating money, a bigger challenge than saving it. Check today's press on Southend united.
Always happy to discuss over a batemans!!
The finance has to be in place, any ideas how much it would be? Ball park figures of course :dan
And its all got to happen in the next decade, or sooner :-\
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Many factors affect costs. Morecambe are just starting to build a new stadium, having sold christie park, and now it has planning for a supermarket.
Ultimately our biggest issue is lack of assets. Southend, morecambe, tottenham, Bristol city, all in various stages of redevelopment or relocation, and all are linked to a supermarket deal, there are other clubs working withsupermarkets to relocate, in a way it's scary that it's the march of supermarkets funding development. Look at Chesterfield, Coventry, everton (failed)
we have nothing to trade with, apart from some old stands, therefore it will have to be self financing, either done in conjunction with another development, ie retail, or housing. I think a standalone stadium would be a financial challenge.
I would add Dave Newton know more about this than any of us!!
Anyway costs, perhaps on the cheap at £7 million, there has to be sufficent facilities to keep revenue flowing all week every week,
In terms of structure, we are adding a floor. So to install a mezz we have to raise the existing building, it's a real challenge in terms of structural design, and minimising the amount if support columns. I am extending an existing supermarket into an adjoining former homebase, which increases the sales area from 37k sq ft to 100k sq ft. Really exciting stuff, it's the biggest extension we have ever done.
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we have nothing to trade with, apart from some old stands, therefore it will have to be self financing, either done in conjunction with another development, ie retail, or housing. I think a standalone stadium would be a financial challenge.
I would add Dave Newton know more about this than any of us!!
Anyway costs, perhaps on the cheap at £7 million, there has to be sufficent facilities to keep revenue flowing all week every week,
I think we are looking at a stand-alone stadium...the housing option is a non-starter at the moment, and the retail option looks unlikely as if Sainsburys, for example, were looking at moving into the area on the outskirts of town, whats to stop them just buying their own plot of land and building on it as Tescos did?
A development of smaller retail units, built to let, might work for the sustainability part, but where would the initial outlay of cash come from...if we're talking £7m for a new ground you're probably going to double that to include the retail.
In terms of structure, we are adding a floor. So to install a mezz we have to raise the existing building, it's a real challenge in terms of structural design, and minimising the amount if support columns. I am extending an existing supermarket into an adjoining former homebase, which increases the sales area from 37k sq ft to 100k sq ft. Really exciting stuff, it's the biggest extension we have ever done.
So you have to jack up the existing building in one piece? Sounds like an interesting project, although the engineering challenges are different to those you would be up against if you had to project manage the moving of several spectator stands from one part of town to another!
It would be interesting to find out what the specified designed service life-span was for the Townend, the Spayne, and the Main stand. Its generally 100 years for steel structures exposed to the elements, and 50 for concrete structures...maybe somebody out there knows who did the original calcs ???
The enviromental audit would look good if you managed to move the York St stands to a new ground 8)
Even the insitu concrete could be put through a crusher and used under the roads/car-parks :o
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I see the posts quoting between £7 m and £10 m for a new stadium, with talk about moving the stands and other buildings to a new site. So how much do they want for the york street site. If no new stands were necessary would that not be a cheaper option.
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Possibly much cheaper. The issue is where do we get £X million from?
For me the solution is.
1.Buy the ground
2.work up an out of town stadium, with a mixed use development
3.sell existing ground with permission for housing or supermarket/retail
4. Sell the ground at a premium with planning consent and vacant possession
you recoup the purchase price, and hopefully fund the new stadium through this sale, and income from mixed use.
There would be debt, but by having a 7 day a week facility thatcould be covered
simples!
Only downside is all the upfront outlay, and quite a but of risk on returns
mind you I was told today steel is running at £450 a tonne, very cheap, now is the time to buy some new stands!!
Dave.
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Interesting times ahead!
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The Chestnuts will not be buying the existing ground. The landlords want a retail price and the Chestnuts pay a trade price, also the communication between the two partys is on par with Obama & Osama.
I think it's fairly safe to say the land has been secured for a new ground/sports complex.
The business plan was set when the Chestnuts took over and it's now being put into place. All we have to do is support the team through good and bad, use the Pilgrim Lounge and support club events then we will get our new ground.
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Glad to see somebody in Boston is up and awake, qwerty. 11.15 for the first post of the day I thought every body had cancelled this snow laden day and gone back to bed!!!
Just a thought on the new ground. When the Chestnuts bought out Lavaflow would they have inherited their plans for a new stadium. Can't remember how advanced the architects plans were or whether they were just artists impressions.
Perhaps a hotel and conference rooms alongside the ground are the best commercial bet as this area is desperately short of both facilities.
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The Lavaflow plans were rejected at a council planning meeting on 04/12 2006. at the Boston Conference Centre, If they were passed on to Chestnuts it would be fairly safe to say they received the treatment they deserved ( i e the shredder )
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The Lavaflow plans were rejected at a council planning meeting on 04/12 2006. at the Boston Conference Centre, If they were passed on to Chestnuts it would be fairly safe to say they received the treatment they deserved ( i e the shredder )
Plans for the stadium are not the same as a business case. In Lavalows instance you'd be right to shred that as I believe the business case was why they failed..... their numbers didn't add up and they relied purely on funding from the sale of Towns land. Then again Evans never could do his maths so its hardly surprising the business case was pap.
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I think it's fairly safe to say the land has been secured for a new ground/sports complex.
The business plan was set when the Chestnuts took over and it's now being put into place. All we have to do is support the team through good and bad, use the Pilgrim Lounge and support club events then we will get our new ground.
Sounds idylic qwerty.
Assuming the land has been allocated for BUFC to use at the usual peppercorn rent, then all we need is the construction costs of the new ground...all covered by the business plan :dan
Would the Trust know details of the plan ???
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I think it's fairly safe to say the land has been secured for a new ground/sports complex.
The business plan was set when the Chestnuts took over and it's now being put into place. All we have to do is support the team through good and bad, use the Pilgrim Lounge and support club events then we will get our new ground.
Would the Trust know details of the plan ???
Yes. The business model was released at a fans forum and was also published on the BUFC website.
Does sound a little idylic I know, but all the best plans are simple ;)
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Simple plans never equal simple execution!
How many pints of bateman do we need to sell to build a new stadium.
The club will be heavily debt ridden in any new stadium development.
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Yes. The business model was released at a fans forum and was also published on the BUFC website.
Any chance of a link to this publication? My limited computer skills have revealed nothing except the stuff regarding the day to day running costs of the club ???
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A link to the business model for the running of the club can be found here:
http://www.bufc.co.uk/article/2560601/Fans-forum-slideshow-now-online
This doesn't contain any 'new stadium costings' but simplifies how the Chestnuts see the long term future of Boston United, and how they can see it running as a viable business. It also gives a small insight into how they intend to aquire planning permission for a new stadium.
This article is dated 2ND April 2009 and is taken from the fans forum on 25TH March 2009.
Hope this helps.
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Yes you are right SP Laverflow could not present any sort of feasable funding , which made it easy for the council to reject the plans.. But that apart the plans presented would not be appropriate for a club our size.
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This talks of structuring the club, not structuring any debts/costs involved in a stadium development.
Lots of good will there will help gain planning permission, but financing a new stadium is more than a good social club, or people through a turnstile.
Dont mean to sound negative, but if the club needs to move in 9 years, (less than that now), then there needs to be some other plan in Davids mind to generate the upfront finance needed, just prelim costs of land and planning etc could be over a couple of million
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A link to the business model for the running of the club can be found here:
http://www.bufc.co.uk/article/2560601/Fans-forum-slideshow-now-online
This doesn't contain any 'new stadium costings' but simplifies how the Chestnuts see the long term future of Boston United, and how they can see it running as a viable business. It also gives a small insight into how they intend to aquire planning permission for a new stadium.
This article is dated 2ND April 2009 and is taken from the fans forum on 25TH March 2009.
Hope this helps.
Thanks qwerty. I am unable to open it at the moment due to 3 other laptops stealing the bandwidth :o I'll try again later.
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This talks of structuring the club, not structuring any debts/costs involved in a stadium development.
Lots of good will there will help gain planning permission, but financing a new stadium is more than a good social club, or people through a turnstile.
Dont mean to sound negative, but if the club needs to move in 9 years, (less than that now), then there needs to be some other plan in Davids mind to generate the upfront finance needed, just prelim costs of land and planning etc could be over a couple of million
I agree with what you say Pilgrims67. Interesting times ahead. After spending a little time with David & Neil I'm sure that If anybody can pull all this together then they can, and all we can do is support them in anyway they ask, which at the moment is through the turn styles, use the Pilgrim Lounge and support other club events.
A link to the business model for the running of the club can be found here:
http://www.bufc.co.uk/article/2560601/Fans-forum-slideshow-now-online
This doesn't contain any 'new stadium costings' but simplifies how the Chestnuts see the long term future of Boston United, and how they can see it running as a viable business. It also gives a small insight into how they intend to aquire planning permission for a new stadium.
This article is dated 2ND April 2009 and is taken from the fans forum on 25TH March 2009.
Hope this helps.
Thanks qwerty. I am unable to open it at the moment due to 3 other laptops stealing the bandwidth :o I'll try again later.
OK, Don't get too excited, it might not be what your looking for :)
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Like the majority have £1000 to spare Patrick.
Most of our fans have much more pressing needs than spending that kind of money on the football club.
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Often thought about the benefits of this, trouble is hypothetically,. if 1000 took the deal at £1k per ticket, you have a Million pounds in the bank, however that has to last you 10 years,
I think the club needs regular sustainable income streams rather than one big lump
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I agree with what you say Pilgrims67. Interesting times ahead. After spending a little time with David & Neil I'm sure that If anybody can pull all this together then they can, and all we can do is support them in anyway they ask, which at the moment is through the turn styles, use the Pilgrim Lounge and support other club events.
The Chestnuts have done a great job so far in just keeping the club going against all the odds.
So...if the fans support them as much as possible, then the various parts of the club continue to operate, generating as much goodwill as possible in the community over the next < 9 years, and then, when we have to move out of York St, we will get something back from the various parts of the community that stand to benefit from the continued existance of Boston United FC.
Simple and idyllic. If anyone can do it then Neil and David can. They've saved the club once already that we know of, and probably several more times since they took over.
The business plan is introduced as their 'vision of the future', and it is more of a vision than a plan. Hopefully it can develop into something that will ensure that the clubs future is in its own hands.