Pilgrims' Patter
The Forum => The B-Ark => Topic started by: Dipdodah on March 02, 2016, 09:38:58 AM
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In June we all have to make one of the most important decisions of our lives. How we vote in June will map out this country's future for generations.
Do we vote to leave the EU ?
Or do we stop in ?
I would think how the people of Boston vote has more meaning than say certain other parts of the country.
I just wonder how the general feeling is, on this a local forum.
No racist comments please.
I will start it off, I am voting OUT. I did not vote for us to enter the EU and I have not changed my mind.
I think the town of Boston get a pretty raw deal (funding wise). We have a very high percentage of migrants, yet no extra funding to help. Our schools, doctors, hospital and roads are under extreme pressure.
If this is okay with Ken, a lively debate please.
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I think the slogan is going to be GTFO! ;) 8)
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out..........
obviously might change if the Quadrant is EU backed :)
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if as a country we voted out would that mean premiership teams couldn't play in the champions league?, if so I'm voting out because Im sick of the over hyped crap, its even worse than watching the premier league over paid arrogant w**kers!
sorry, having a bad day - out
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if as a country we voted out would that mean premiership teams couldn't play in the champions league?
The vote is about the EU, not UEFA...
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I did make my vote Pilgrim86, its out. Whats your's, thats what the threads about not making remarks about other peoples posts.
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♫ In out, in out, Cameron pee’s about
He’s such a snakey snakey
And has more turn around's
That’s why i’m voting out ♫
:bunny :bunny
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If you think you know the answer you haven't understood the question. I will continue to listen to the arguments for In or Out and when the time comes I will vote.
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Out 1 - 0 Stay
Att: 64.1 Million
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Suddenly the rest of the EU loves us and are worried about our welfare if we leave. I wonder why.
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I did make my vote Pilgrim86, its out. Whats your's, thats what the threads about not making remarks about other peoples posts.
I answered your question.
I'm unsure, but leaning towards IN.
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Suddenly the rest of the EU loves us and are worried about our welfare if we leave. I wonder why.
Exactly .
I suspect Dave has been stitched up by the EU . Like many of us Tory loyalist they see him as a man with lots of bluster and no delivery .
NO IFS , NO BUTS .
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I did make my vote Pilgrim86, its out. Whats your's, thats what the threads about not making remarks about other peoples posts.
I answered your question.
I'm unsure, but leaning towards IN.
i voted IN when i was young.............i was voting for a free trade market...nothing more
however it has changed..........changed a lot....it is now a red tape ridden juggernaut.....
this time its OUT for me.
the biggest worry should be for you younger types is if Turkey join then they can give out passports.
anyone one with an EU passport can travel ANYWHERE within the union.................
just take a moment to think that through......................
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It is supposed to be a level playing field for both the camps.
But I see the government has put a block on the various government offices releasing any figures that can be used to influence an exit vote. >:(
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But I see the government has put a block on the various government offices releasing any figures that can be used to influence an exit vote. >:(
That alone could be a reason to vote out as it hints that the benefits of being out of the EU outweigh the problems. Anything that Cameron says is good for the country probably isn't.
Wasn't there once some scaremongering about the UK not changing from the £ to the ECU being bad for our economy?
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First point. Nobody voted to be in the EU, because there was no EU when the previous referendum was held. It was to a vote to be a member of an economic community, aka the Common Market, which was supposed to make the movement of goods easier with lower tariffs. I'm still waiting for significantly lower taxes that the government of the time promised if we voted in favour.
Subsequently, our leaders signed a treaty giving away our sovereignty without consulting the people. Unquestionably, this was an act of high treason and the perpetrators would at any other time in history, have been brought to trial and executed.
This is the first and probably the only opportunity for the population to reclaim the lawful rights of the British people. Failure to do this will mean that we will be inevitably drawn deeper into a superstate where we have little or no say in our destiny. All the arguments about compromise are irrelevant. No ifs, no buts to quote a certain culpable politician; we must get out of something we don't believe in. The evidence that we are not part of this pernicious European dream is clear. We have refused to join the Euro. We have refused to commit to the Shengen agreement regarding free movement over boundaries. We have just participated in a pointless exercise to pull back some of the commitments to which we had previously agreed. In other words, we don't believe in the superstate dream and we certainly don't want to immerse ourselves in the idea.
We want our country back and there is only one way to achieve it. The way out may be involved and complicated, depending on which politicians are allowed to stick their oar in, but June 23rd will be a historic day for the nation. If we stay in, it will be the last day for us as a nation.
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Well said, Fairfax! Agree 100%
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Agree 100% Fairfax, couldn't have put it better, well done.
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First point. Nobody voted to be in the EU, because there was no EU when the previous referendum was held. It was to a vote to be a member of an economic community, aka the Common Market, which was supposed to make the movement of goods easier with lower tariffs. I'm still waiting for significantly lower taxes that the government of the time promised if we voted in favour.
Subsequently, our leaders signed a treaty giving away our sovereignty without consulting the people. Unquestionably, this was an act of high treason and the perpetrators would at any other time in history, have been brought to trial and executed.
This is the first and probably the only opportunity for the population to reclaim the lawful rights of the British people. Failure to do this will mean that we will be inevitably drawn deeper into a superstate where we have little or no say in our destiny. All the arguments about compromise are irrelevant. No ifs, no buts to quote a certain culpable politician; we must get out of something we don't believe in. The evidence that we are not part of this pernicious European dream is clear. We have refused to join the Euro. We have refused to commit to the Shengen agreement regarding free movement over boundaries. We have just participated in a pointless exercise to pull back some of the commitments to which we had previously agreed. In other words, we don't believe in the superstate dream and we certainly don't want to immerse ourselves in the idea.
We want our country back and there is only one way to achieve it. The way out may be involved and complicated, depending on which politicians are allowed to stick their oar in, but June 23rd will be a historic day for the nation. If we stay in, it will be the last day for us as a nation.
If I had a way with words that is exactly what I would have said ;)
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Excellent points well made Fairfax 8)
GTFO!
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First point. Nobody voted to be in the EU, because there was no EU when the previous referendum was held. It was to a vote to be a member of an economic community, aka the Common Market, which was supposed to make the movement of goods easier with lower tariffs. I'm still waiting for significantly lower taxes that the government of the time promised if we voted in favour.
Subsequently, our leaders signed a treaty giving away our sovereignty without consulting the people. Unquestionably, this was an act of high treason and the perpetrators would at any other time in history, have been brought to trial and executed.
This is the first and probably the only opportunity for the population to reclaim the lawful rights of the British people. Failure to do this will mean that we will be inevitably drawn deeper into a superstate where we have little or no say in our destiny. All the arguments about compromise are irrelevant. No ifs, no buts to quote a certain culpable politician; we must get out of something we don't believe in. The evidence that we are not part of this pernicious European dream is clear. We have refused to join the Euro. We have refused to commit to the Shengen agreement regarding free movement over boundaries. We have just participated in a pointless exercise to pull back some of the commitments to which we had previously agreed. In other words, we don't believe in the superstate dream and we certainly don't want to immerse ourselves in the idea.
We want our country back and there is only one way to achieve it. The way out may be involved and complicated, depending on which politicians are allowed to stick their oar in, but June 23rd will be a historic day for the nation. If we stay in, it will be the last day for us as a nation.
well said Fairfax (of New Model Army fame? Cromwell, not the band)
ive took the liberty of posting it on facebook...
thank you
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Well said Fairfax.
Have you ever thought of standing for PM?
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Some debate this is, we are all in agreement. At this rate 100% support for exit.
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Faifax for our local M P got to be better than what we have got .
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Let's blame the Tories - they took us in ! To be fair, not many at the time opposed the move. Maybe more should have listened to Tony Benn - but that's hindsight for you.
TEP
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Let's blame the Tories - they took us in ! To be fair, not many at the time opposed the move. Maybe more should have listened to Tony Benn - but that's hindsight for you.
TEP
I was a postman at the time, and delivered all the bumf. Every time I handed one out I got the same reply. " I fought for this country I am not going to give it away " Not one person I met said they wanted to join.
Yet we joined with an overwhelming majority.
I remember we were told that wages would increase, and we would get more holidays to come in line with Europe. I am still waiting.
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Let's blame the Tories - they took us in ! To be fair, not many at the time opposed the move. Maybe more should have listened to Tony Benn - but that's hindsight for you.
TEP
I was a postman at the time, and delivered all the bumf. Every time I handed one out I got the same reply. " I fought for this country I am not going to give it away " Not one person I met said they wanted to join.
Yet we joined with an overwhelming majority.
I remember we were told that wages would increase, and we would get more holidays to come in line with Europe. I am still waiting.
It only be the same this time, dont matter if 90% vote out it still be a majority to stay in, we dont have the transparancy in the uk to know any different
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Let's blame the Tories - they took us in ! To be fair, not many at the time opposed the move. Maybe more should have listened to Tony Benn - but that's hindsight for you.
TEP
I was a postman at the time, and delivered all the bumf. Every time I handed one out I got the same reply. " I fought for this country I am not going to give it away " Not one person I met said they wanted to join.
Yet we joined with an overwhelming majority.
I remember we were told that wages would increase, and we would get more holidays to come in line with Europe. I am still waiting.
It only be the same this time, dont matter if 90% vote out it still be a majority to stay in, we dont have the transparancy in the uk to know any different
You are as bad as me Bostonshire with your conspiracy theory.
But you are right, how do we know?
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Some debate this is, we are all in agreement. At this rate 100% support for exit.
According to one newspaper today even the Queen is backing you Dip .
A NO vote majority in June and you could become Sir Mick !!! 8) ;)
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Liz and I think the same. When I get my knighthood, will you still talk to me GHM? 8)
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Ah, but you forget about all those poor MEP's. Now what will they all do if we come out? Will they ever get jobs, most are married with families, please think of the children! ::)
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The Turkish deal done earlier than Cameron was hoping, allowing 70 million more people access via schengen to the UK borders, and costing the UK £500 million.
:police:
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Things are getting messy :)
IDS resigns, or was he pushed?
Beware if you are a Eurosceptic and do not toe the line ;)
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Eu out and den out!
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Slightly off topic, but our thoughts go out to the people of Brussels today after another cowardly attack. Looks like they are striking at the heart of European government.
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Reports of at least one British casualty, I suppose its just a matter of time before we get hit over here again.
Several hundred jehadi 'fighters' returned to the UK already apparently, and thats just the ones on the radar.
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Eu out and den out!
Predictatble KINGOFMOANS ! :bunny :bunny
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According to Panorama, Europol know that a terrorist visited the UK a few weeks ago and took photos of a football ground near Birmingham - it would be good to be confident that they've let the UK intelligence know, but after the Intel debacle of Brussels, it makes you wonder
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250 top company bosses put their weight behind Brexit today. :D.
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According to Panorama, Europol know that a terrorist visited the UK a few weeks ago and took photos of a football ground near Birmingham - it would be good to be confident that they've let the UK intelligence know, but after the Intel debacle of Brussels, it makes you wonder
Solihull ? ;)
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9.3 million pounds of OUR money to be spent by the government on a leaflet drop to convince us to stay in Europe.
Not a level playing field me thinks >:( >:( >:( >:(
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9.3 million pounds of OUR money to be spent by the government on a leaflet drop to convince us to stay in Europe.
Not a level playing field me thinks >:( >:( >:( >:(
Great bonus for your ex colleagues Dip , hope its not sour grapes on your part . :)
A great earner for Royal Mail staff , with many of the public promising to mark the leaflet "return to sender" this will add another postal charge that will add to the £9.3 million, this will create bonus for staff and a boost BT to share price , payed by the taxpayer .
Bugger Dodgey Daves tax returns Dip, lets check his share portfolio to see the size of his Royal Mail stock .
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A busy day for the postmen today delivering Dodgy Dave,s EU propaganda .
Looks likely to be another busy one for them tomorrow emptying letter boxes , I would guess W H SMITH are selling more brown envelopes than they did in Fat Mcfauds era .
Those like me wishing to support Dave,s recycling drive can return return the pamphlet to : :)
Attn Joanna George.
FREEPOST RSBB-XRZT-ZTXE .
The Conservative Party Foundation,
30 Millbank,
London.
SW1P 4
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In.
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This mailing is part of due process for elections though.
We'll all get one from the Vote Leave camp too. Allowing both parties fund to put forward their views and inform the known electorate sounds pretty fair to me
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This mailing is part of due process for elections though.
We'll all get one from the Vote Leave camp too. Allowing both parties fund to put forward their views and inform the known electorate sounds pretty fair to me
One is self funding, the other funded by us.
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Nope, they're both funded by us
Now Vote Leave has been selection as the official campaign body for the Brexit camp both will be allowed to spend up to £7m, get a free mailshot (from taxpayer funding), access TV broadcasts and £600,000 public funds.
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The problem with Cameron's use of our taxes is that he paid out the £9.3m before the start of the official campaigns. Once started both sides are limited to £7m.
So the Remain campaign will have the benefit of £16.3m, whereas the Leave campaign gets only £7m for its funding...that's the Etonian version of fair play :dan
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The problem with Cameron's use of our taxes is that he paid out the £9.3m before the start of the official campaigns. Once started both sides are limited to £7m.
So the Remain campaign will have the benefit of £16.3m, whereas the Leave campaign gets only £7m for its funding...that's the Etonian version of fair play :dan
Your leader wants us to stay in!
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The problem with Cameron's use of our taxes is that he paid out the £9.3m before the start of the official campaigns. Once started both sides are limited to £7m.
So the Remain campaign will have the benefit of £16.3m, whereas the Leave campaign gets only £7m for its funding...that's the Etonian version of fair play :dan
Are you implying Dave is DODGY?
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The problem with Cameron's use of our taxes is that he paid out the £9.3m before the start of the official campaigns. Once started both sides are limited to £7m.
So the Remain campaign will have the benefit of £16.3m, whereas the Leave campaign gets only £7m for its funding...that's the Etonian version of fair play :dan
Are you implying Dave is DODGY?
In this case the facts show a misuse of public money by Dodgy Dave. This £9m piece of propaganda isn't even factually correct, so nine million quids worth of crap, most of which will end up in a skip outside No 10 as the letterbox will be full :police:
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I think traffic wardens will vote IN as they show an affection for international tolerance .
Heard cases of dodgy parking tickets issued in recent days, for example a car rear hanging over badly marked yellow lines by 3ins in one case .
Yesterday I witnessed a car parked a considerable distance over the yellow lines in West St in front of the main entrance to the Municipal Buildings . Later on my return from shopping it was still retaining the same spot with no apparent parking ticket issued .
Can anyone tell me where I can purchase a set of these number plates with a white background and black lettering ?
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I think traffic wardens will vote IN as they show an affection for international tolerance .
Heard cases of dodgy parking tickets issued in recent days, for example a car rear hanging over badly marked yellow lines by 3ins in one case .
Yesterday I witnessed a car parked a considerable distance over the yellow lines in West St in front of the main entrance to the Municipal Buildings . Later on my return from shopping it was still retaining the same spot with no apparent parking ticket issued .
Can anyone tell me where I can purchase a set of these number plates with a white background and black lettering ?
You are not suggesting that there is one rule for us and another for EU migrants, concerning road traffic violations ;)
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Everything that goes on in and around that building is a violation of some description :dan
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Everything that goes on in and around that building is a violation of some description :dan
lol
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we are going to be over £4,000 worse off per household if we leave the EU. So says honest John ::)
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we are going to be over £4,000 worse off per household if we leave the EU. So says honest John ::)
notice he forgot the details of how where gonna be worse of
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According to Professor Patrick Minford of the Institute of Economic Affairs each household will be better off post Brexit by £9200.
So if the true figure lies somewhere between these two figures then it sounds like a great deal.
George Osborne - the Etonian Arthur Daley of Economics v the eminent Professor, it's a no-brainer :dan
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Osbourne claiming what the financial position will be in 15 years time !!!!!!!
This from the man who has produced budgets that have been proved flawed within 15 days .
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Dodgy Dave and Arfur Osborne have been using their Etonian code of conduct during the run up to the election allegedly.
Bringing activists into marginal constituencies on the Tory battle bus and then not declaring the hotel bills as electioneering expenses. Apparently if this pushes the electioneering expenses above £15k for an individual constituency, then it would be classed as electoral malpractice and there would have to be a by-election :dan
Meanwhile Dodgy Dave has enlisted the help of the world's number one snake - oil salesman for his anti - Brexit campaign :o
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I would like to say a BIG thank you to Obama. Your comments have given the Brexit camp a big boost. I would think the don't knows are now leaning towards leave. We will be last in the queue for a trade deal and first in the queue to help USA invade some other oil rich country. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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His time would have been better spent in USA reforming gun laws . :police:
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Anyone at the back of Cameron/Obama's 'queue' at the moment will be doing their deal long before the one supposedly at the front of this 'queue', is ratified (the TTIP deal between the US and the EU).
Obama reckons it will be agreed by the end of this year, but it then has to be ratified by all the EU member states. Tens of thousands of people have been out on the streets in europe protesting about TTIP, so good luck with that one Barack :dan
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I wonder if the dead pig shagger had anything to do with Obama saying that. I'm far from being an American, but the word 'queue' is not in their vocabulary. Over there you join a 'line' or get to the end of the 'line' That slimy bas#ard we have as a PM and his bumboy Chancellor both want us to stay in.
Now neither of them have done fook all for the working folk of this country, i don't expect them to be interested in us at this stage. Personally i'll be voting out, if i'm going to be fooked over by the powers at be, let them be ones i actually know, and not some faceless wanker in Brussels.
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The UK is a Level One partner in the F35 Joint Strike Fighter Project, with much of the tail being developed by BAE , and the central lifting fan by Rolls-Royce.
Obama would have us believe that the entire F35 collaboration would be cancelled and therfore the whole project will be scrapped if we vote to leave. Also Boeing Aircraft and Ford Motors would hardly be likely to cease trading with the UK, and the Americans would not want to stop importing Jaguar/Landrover.
It's so absurd that the Remainiac scaremongers will next be telling us that Macdonalds will disappear overnight if we vote leave :dan
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An article today in the Huffington Post reports that the winner in the campaign so far is "LIES" . At last a bit of truth reported :)
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An article today in the Huffington Post reports that the winner in the campaign so far is "LIES" . At last a bit of truth reported :)
A very IRONIC post for a Monday morning my old friend. :laugh:
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Any one noticed the lack of reporting by the media, concerning the immigration crisis in Greece, Italy etc?
In this country of the free, have the media been gagged?
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Any one noticed the lack of reporting by the media, concerning the immigration crisis in Greece, Italy etc?
In this country of the free, have the media been gagged?
No need for the media to be gagged Dip , many political journalist are like Geo and Dodgy Dave , Etonians who have never had a proper job .
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Any one noticed the lack of reporting by the media, concerning the immigration crisis in Greece, Italy etc?
In this country of the free, have the media been gagged?
It's all going tits up in Germany too with their batch of refugees. The authorities are preventing the press from reporting the full extent of the problems with health care etc but some of it is getting out via social media and it sounds pretty dire.
Made me laugh when the remainiacs launched their latest bit of scaremongering - apparently if we leave the EU it will affect the environment to the extent that we will be unable to meet our global warming targets ;D
As if trying to tell us that anything we do, or don't do, will have any effect on what is a natural cycle of warming and cooling which has been occurring for millennia isn't dumb enough, but then to try and conflate that with Brexit shows a level of patronising dumbness that can only be described as jaw-droppingly dumb :dan
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Meanwhile on the domestic front the government propose to eliminating tipping .
Too late !!! as Dipdodah will testify I took the decision to stop tipping 40 years ago . :)
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Meanwhile on the domestic front the government propose to eliminating tipping .
Too late !!! as Dipdodah will testify I took the decision to stop tipping 40 years ago . :)
The only tip you ever gave when I was a postman was " do not eat yellow snow " 8)
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Tomorrow there's a Newsnight Special from Boston concerning the referendum, so watch out for reporters roaming the streets. :police:
Interesting that Cameron has widened his argument on the security risk of Brexit to include the outbreak of war. He can't really take this security argument much further as it's already into looney tunes territory.
What's the odds on desperately dodgy Dave telling us that Brexit will increase the risk of an invasion from outer space next :dan
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What surprises me is the lack of any opinion polls. Anyone got a link to the latest poll?
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No time for opinion polls , after listening to Dodgy Dave yesterday many of us are busy building concrete bunkers in our back gardens . :-\ ;)
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Get out your pilots helmet GHM, scramble, scramble, you old Spitfire pilots will soon be needed. ;)
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I'm back, after a cancer operation that went badly wrong and a near death experience. However, I am fit enough to vote out on referendum day. After serious consideration, I stick by every word in my previous post, but I can think of a downside which we must be prepared to face. Some small European importers may not wish to buy our products if the EU impose tariffs against us. In turn, we can retaliate buy imposing tariffs of our own and a short tariff war may occur. Sadly, this may result in the loss of jobs for a small number of our citizens. With a heavy heart for those few, I stand buy my intention to vote out, because I believe that we will quickly regain our sovereign status and become a major exporter on the World stage. My opinion is based on a considerable period of studying facts and seeing the reality of the situation, and ignoring the silly comments made by politicians. For those who still wish to vote to stay, I say you are condemning future generations to subservience to European powers such as Germany and France, unless, as I believe, the EU will collapse in a few years or even months. If this happens, we will be dragged, financially into the same mess as the rest.
Look for the facts behind the rhetoric that is being spouted and don't fall for the garbage about the EU preventing war. Our fathers and grandfathers fought and died in Europe for freedom, not a European Union. It is this very freedom which we are now fighting for when we mark our ballot papers. Out means the sovereignty that they really fought for. Let's get out while we can. The chance may never come again.
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I'm back, after a cancer operation that went badly wrong and a near death experience. However, I am fit enough to vote out on referendum day. After serious consideration, I stick by every word in my previous post, but I can think of a downside which we must be prepared to face. Some small European importers may not wish to buy our products if the EU impose tariffs against us. In turn, we can retaliate buy imposing tariffs of our own and a short tariff war may occur. Sadly, this may result in the loss of jobs for a small number of our citizens. With a heavy heart for those few, I stand buy my intention to vote out, because I believe that we will quickly regain our sovereign status and become a major exporter on the World stage. My opinion is based on a considerable period of studying facts and seeing the reality of the situation, and ignoring the silly comments made by politicians. For those who still wish to vote to stay, I say you are condemning future generations to subservience to European powers such as Germany and France, unless, as I believe, the EU will collapse in a few years or even months. If this happens, we will be dragged, financially into the same mess as the rest.
Look for the facts behind the rhetoric that is being spouted and don't fall for the garbage about the EU preventing war. Our fathers and grandfathers fought and died in Europe for freedom, not a European Union. It is this very freedom which we are now fighting for when we mark our ballot papers. Out means the sovereignty that they really fought for. Let's get out while we can. The chance may never come again.
Well said, I hope you make a quick and full recovery :)
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Best of luck to Fairfax . Most of us feel all the propaganda of both parties is lies or guesswork and cannot be trusted , so how do we make a decision ?
Mine is based on two pointers , firstly the EU countries desire to keep us in is a good pointer that as many of us anticipate they will take us to the cleaners after a Yes vote , revealing that Dave,s talk of reform is all what Cameron stands for ..... bluster .
As a life long Tory voter the real clincher for me is having seen U-turn after U-turn and failed targets by Cameron and Osbourne it would be foolhardy to follow their advice .
OUT FOR ME .
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We import more than we export to Europe. Any tariffs would be worse for them.
Also do we need your in Europe to import stuff from China?
Well done Fairdax and to DT who has had similar issues.
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Good to see you back Fairfax, excellent post, good luck with the treatment.
I remember my grandfather telling us the story of how he, and his generation, fought for the sovereignty of this country, and there was never any mention of doing it for Europe. This country was under threat and the removal of the threat entailed the liberation of Europe by defeating Germany - Cameron reinventing history again
Interesting to hear Dodgy Dave apparently drooling over the level of corruption in Nigeria, describing it as fantastically corrupt to Her Majesty. Strange that we are hosting this anti-corruption conference today when the EU accounts haven't been signed off by the accountants for seventeen years now - maybe Dave is hoping to pick up a few tips from the Nigerian delegation :dan
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Also do we need your in Europe to import stuff from China?
No we don't.
The Chinese visit last year was billed as heralding a new golden era of trade, which was 'vital for our economy '.
What does that imply for the European project?
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The EU have now reinvented one of the fundamental laws of physics with their new restrictions on the use of high power kettles.
The low power kettles take longer to boil and therefore, according to Newton's law of cooling, will consume more energy to heat the same volume of water.
We will have to build a few more of those lovely wind farms to supply all these new low powered kettles :dan
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That'll be handy.
Wind farms are the future
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That'll be handy.
Wind farms are the future
no :)
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prefer having one of those in my back garden than a gas or coal or nuclear plant any day
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That'll be handy.
Wind farms are the future
I read somewhere that if we had a million of these it would only produce 10% of our electricity. I will try and find the link.
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prefer having one of those in my back garden than a gas or coal or nuclear plant any day
not many people have hem in their back garden......however if we let these dutch and german companies carry on they'll be everywhere...you may get one in your back garden :)
look at all those just off skeg...not rotating? no worries for the companies they still get their wedge....where does wedge come from...er us, the taxpayer.
these things are being funded to show the government to be "green".
ditto solar panels ....although they are more efficient than turbines.
the renewable companies were/are looking to have a swathe of them from Heckington right up to Humberstone Fitties.
it will be hard not to see one ...particularly as theyre 125m tall!
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Two more coal fired power stations are being decommissioned soon so the energy gap is widening as we try to meet the EU targets. It will be interesting to see how the grid copes in the winter on dark days when there is no wind and people want to use their new kettles. Heavy industry has already been told to reduce power demand at such times to avoid what they are calling 'brown-outs', which is when you notice your lights go dim for a couple of seconds. The problem is, if they don't address the intermittency of wind and solar power, and keep removing the back-up, these low-power periods could last for hours rather than seconds, and the power fluctuations can damage computers, smart TVs, etc :'(
The good news is that the taxpayer''s wedge has also indirectly helped a non-league club get to the Conference play-offs this year. FGR are being bankrolled by Dale Vince, the owner of Ecotricity, a company who are benefitting from the renewable energy subsidy and may well be planning to put a few more windmills up near you soon. As you watch them turn, and are slowly driven crazy by the beat of the blades, you might be comforted by the progress of a big spending non-league club :dan
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We are DOOMED :o :o The IMF has joined the debate. House prices will crash, interest rates will go through the roof and the pound will plummet. Vote leave and the fires of hell will envelope the whole country. The Stay campaign are trying to scare the public into voting in their favour. The trouble is some of the don't knows will vote stay just because of the fear factor.
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When is dodgey Dave lying? Now or then? I have tried to put a link up, but it does not work. It is a link to Dave addressing the CBI.
He is talking about how well Britain would do if we left the EU.
Seems to have changed his mind ???
Cannot find the link, but this one explains to the don't knows why we should leave the EU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0pwXLtvt2w
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Dodgy is lying now, he told the truth in February when he said that this country would flourish outside of the EU...what a difference a couple of months makes in politics :police:
I'll post a link below which explains whats going on - probably won't work on here but you never know, its worth looking for on utube, watch the end bit about the USSR if nothing else :police: and the intro by the late great Sir Patrick Moore of course
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EokwQi15pO0.
It seems to work now 8)
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This article written and signed by several German Professors, one an EU Law Barrister, blows Cameron's claims of renegotiating a new deal out of the water...makes you wonder why Boris and Gove are not using this stuff, unless they're worried about deselection :police:27
April 2016 A critical view of the EU deal, from Germany to Britain:-
The EU is facing two unprecedented crises: a never-ending currency and economic crisis, and an unprecedented migration crisis which threatens the foundations of the welfare state and the long-term social stability of its member states.
And, as so often, when the EU is facing problems created by premature integration, and no one knows what is to be done, Brussels, Paris and Berlin are responding not with plans for less, but for more EU integration. This is the message of the so-called Five Presidents’ Report which sets out the agenda for full-scale eurozone integration with important implications for the EU as a whole.
In the 1990s Britain, wisely decided not to join the common currency and she never became part of the Schengen ‘open borders’ regime. David Cameron has long called for fundamental reform of the EU. In February, with considerable political skill, he negotiated an EU-UK Agreement which confirms Britain’s opt-outs under the existing Treaties. In the circumstances this is probably the best deal that could be secured. But can the EU-UK agreement be the nucleus of much needed wider reform within the EU? Here we have doubts.
There are four principal areas to the UK-EU Agreement.
First, the provisions on economic governance and competitiveness. They generally do not go beyond vague commitments and otherwise merely confirm the UK’s non-participation in the eurozone banking union and future eurozone bail-outs. The Agreement also provides some assurance to the United Kingdom that further eurozone integration will take account of the special position of non-eurozone EU members, although, in turn, the United Kingdom agrees to sincere cooperation in facilitating further integration within the eurozone. As for the promises to improve economic competitiveness and reduce regulatory burdens, one only has to look back at the launch of the EU’s Lisbon Agenda in 2000 which was aimed to transform the EU into “the most competitive and dynamic knowledge-based economy in the world capable of sustainable economic growth with more and better jobs and greater social cohesion by 2010.” As the year 2010 approached, references to the Agenda were progressively expunged from EU documents and websites, and it now primarily survives on Wikipedia and in fading memories. First, the provisions on economic governance and competitiveness. They generally do not go beyond vague commitments and otherwise merely confirm the UK’s non-participation in the eurozone banking union and future eurozone bail-outs. The Agreement also provides some assurance to the United Kingdom that further eurozone integration will take account of the special position of non-eurozone EU members, although, in turn, the United Kingdom agrees to sincere cooperation in facilitating further integration within the eurozone.
Second, there is the symbolically important declaration that the UK is not committed to ‘ever closer union’. However, there is not a single important judgment where the European Court of Justice has relied on this formula as the exclusive legal basis for driving EU integration, and it is difficult to see how, in practice, the UK could in future escape the uniform application of future judicial activism in the EU except in areas where the UK already enjoys pre-existing opt-outs.
Third, the Agreement envisages a legislative ‘red card’ for national parliaments. This is an innovation of potentially wider significance. However, it would only work if there were a mass revolt of national parliaments against their own majority governments.
Finally, the new ‘emergency brake’ would limit access to welfare benefits by EU migrants for up to four years for individuals and seven years in total. The ‘emergency brake’ could potentially save the UK Treasury a few hundred million pounds in total, but there will be administration costs and the net benefits are difficult to quantify at this stage. Further, there is an open question whether time-limited differential access to in-work benefits would, in the long term, significantly reduce EU immigration into Britain. Most EU migrants come to work and not, primarily, to claim benefits in Britain. Moreover, once non-EU immigrants are naturalised in Germany and elsewhere, there is nothing to prevent them from exercising their right to free movement and cross the Channel legally, not illegally. Thus, even if the United Kingdom is not part of the EU’s common asylum policy, no country will be able to escape its consequences.
We believe that the EU needs the United Kingdom and her voice of reason, all the more at present when almost everyone appears to have quit reason. Whether Britain needs the EU just as much, is a choice for the British people. 27 April The Agreement cannot do so because it does little to reform the EU and does not exempt Britain from the jurisdiction of the Court of Justice and the uniform application of its pro-Union approach to judicial decision-making.
Authors and signatories:
Gunnar Beck, Barrister (EU law), Temple, London
Charles Blankart, professor (economics), Berlin
Gerd Habermann, professor (economics), University of Potsdam
Hans-Olaf Henkel, MEP and former president of the German Federation of Industry
Dietrich Murswiek, professor (public and EU law), Freiburg
Alfred Schüller, professor (economics), Marburg
Joachim Starbatty, MEP and professor (economics), University of Tübingen
Roland Vaubel, professor (economics), University of Mannheim
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Osborne's tampon tax has gone tits-up allegedly :o
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Osborne's tampon tax has gone tits-up allegedly :o
He's putting it in the wrong place then :)
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I was on holiday last week and was very surprised about he amount of people I spoke to that wanted to remain.
Most were quoting the bumf that is being put out about how we will return to the dark ages if we left.
Obviously they were not living in a small market town with the amenities for 50,000, and a population of ?????? a hell of a lot more.
I did see in one of the papers a spot the difference. Two pictures of farmers campaigning to remain. One picture was Surry farmers with a placard and the other was Kent farmers. Guess what? They were the same farmers. :o
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Reading today that only two nations in the EU are net contributors UK and Germany. The rest are benefactors.
Is this true?
If so no wonder the rest of Europe want us to remain.
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Dodgy Dave telling us staying in the EU is the only way to get immigration figures down .
Has no one told him the alarming rate they have escalated in the last 6 years under his watch ?
Where have you gone wrong Dave ?
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If it's out, will there be a limit of only 3 non English players per team again?
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If it's out, will there be a limit of only 3 non English players per team again?
Dunno, but I am all for that. This can only enhance the game at England level.
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Cameron is guilty of an act of treason under the 1351 Treason Act and the Bill of Rights 1689, among other Acts passed by our sovereign parliament, according to Lord Kilmuir
Time he was fecked off into the tower along with his mate Osborne :dan
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Cameron is guilty of an act of treason under the 1351 Treason Act and the Bill of Rights 1689, among other Acts passed by our sovereign parliament, according to Lord Kilmuir
Time he was fecked off into the tower along with his mate Osborne :dan
After Dave,s performances on TV the last couple of days Vote Leave will feck him of before June 23 rd if he does,nt get his act together !!
Whatever the outcome of the vote , come June 24th we will be left with two parties in chaos both with a lame duck leader .
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QUACK QUACK
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It's out for me. Last chance for the British people to save their nation before the inevitable United States of Europe rules officially with the eradication of our British values and a distortion of history. Can see very dark times ahead for the next generations - but can they see it too?
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I too will be voting out,but i think the damage (immigration) is already done the british will be a minority when my children are older i fear.
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It's out for me. Last chance for the British people to save their nation before the inevitable United States of Europe rules officially with the eradication of our British values and a distortion of history. Can see very dark times ahead for the next generations - but can they see it too?
Wise words BB
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Documents have been leaked which confirm that the NHS will be sold off/privatised when the TTIP deal is finally agreed.
Greenpeace Netherlands revealed these Brussels documents - Dodgy Dave was hoping this would not get out until after the vote.
If we stay in it seems inevitable that eventually this deal will be agreed, so it is now a straightforward choice between keeping our NHS or staying in the EU :police:
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Documents have been leaked which confirm that the NHS will be sold off/privatised when the TTIP deal is finally agreed.
Greenpeace Netherlands revealed these Brussels documents - Dodgy Dave was hoping this would not get out until after the vote.
If we stay in it seems inevitable that eventually this deal will be agreed, so it is now a straightforward choice between keeping our NHS or staying in the EU :police:
I think it's a piece of willful self delusion if you consider the EU as the greatest threat to the NHS and the Brexit crowd as some kind of saviours. We're talking of individuals such as Ian Duncan Smith, Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, all of whom have long term form when it come to free market economics and decreasing the role of state. You are right to be concerned about TTIP, but I would have thought that anything the Brexit crowd cook up in its place in negotiations with the Americans, will be far more detrimental to anything state run.
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Which ever way we look at it, the NHS is in shambles. Too many health tourists, an ageing population and a shortage of medical staff.
It needs an injection of cash, some of the millions we give away to the EU would help.
Last November I had an ECG at my local doctors, this showed a problem. I had 24 hour monitoring via the Pilgrim in March. I got my results back last week and am being referred to Lincoln cardiac dept, with an estimated waiting time of 4 months. On my working out that is nearly a year before they can even tell me what the problem is. VOTE OUT.
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Cameron recently stated "the NHS is completely protected in the TTIP deal, and to say otherwise is the reddest of red herrings".
Well the leaked Brussels papers prove that Cameron has lied to the British public once again.
These papers make it clear that TTIP presents an existential threat to our NHS.
It would now appear to be a matter of fact that if we vote to remain we will end up in TTIP and then it is just a matter of time before we lose the NHS.
No self-delusion required, just a look at certain papers that dodgy Dave didn't want the British public to see :police:
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Immigration? Speak to a red squirrel
Trade? We import more than we export....
Security? We are in NATO and Interpol...whether we're in or out of Europe.
Travel?.....have to show passport on leaving or returning to uk ...that won't change.
I was at an event yesterday that finished by singing Land of Hope and Glory.
(Not some right wing EDL nonsense event but a dance showcase!....bit of a Last night of the Proms affair)
Look up the words....
If you like them vote out...
If you want to be without Hope or Glory vote in.
This is FAR more important than a general election.....
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Which ever way we look at it, the NHS is in shambles. Too many health tourists, an ageing population and a shortage of medical staff.
It needs an injection of cash, some of the millions we give away to the EU would help.
Last November I had an ECG at my local doctors, this showed a problem. I had 24 hour monitoring via the Pilgrim in March. I got my results back last week and am being referred to Lincoln cardiac dept, with an estimated waiting time of 4 months. On my working out that is nearly a year before they can even tell me what the problem is. VOTE OUT.
I'm genuinely sorry to hear you've been unwell and I hope whatever the problem it gets sorted out. I’d start out by totally agreeing with you that the NHS is currently a shambles, it's gotten to the stage where I worry about me or my family getting ill. However, I think you are giving a serious free pass to its mismanagement at government level over the past 6 years
The NHS has suffered a massive funding crisis over the past 6 years. This is under the stewardship of a conservative government which contains many of the people now trying to claim to be its saviours. Ian Duncan Smith and Michael Gove have been major players throughout that time. Are we now supposed to believe they have had a complete change of opinion? We also currently have a health secretary who previously co-authored a book on how to privatise the health service.
Is TTIP is a threat to the NHS being privatised? Absolutely. Are Ian Duncan Smith, Michael Gove, Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage going to be its saviours? That concept is laughable.
If you want to see what a privatised health service really looks like by the way, look across at the American system. Obviously there are massive inequalities as you have to pay for health insurance. Your income defines how much you can afford to spend on insurance and therefore your care is effected accordingly. The thing that many people don’t realise though, is that it's also one of the most inefficient systems in the world. Care costs much more per head than the NHS which is a shocking fact to some since competition and privatisation is supposed to bring the price down.
The NHS is actually relatively efficient in terms of the cost of care, our great problem is that it has been chronically underfunded, especially for the past 6 years. You are absolutely correct about the additional problems facing the NHS, but the decisions taken by the last two governments have only exacerbated things. It’s a fairly simple equation really, if we want a decent health care system, we need to be prepared to pay for it.
To get back to the main point though, the truth is that this sudden feigned concern for the NHS is an excellent piece of subterfuge by the exit side. If they win they won’t spend more on the NHS or stop it being privatised, it’s more likely they will do the complete opposite. This has been the biggest problem with the whole debate so far, both sides have lied and twisted the truth to suit their agenda. There is so much misinformation out there it’s unreal so it requires critical thinking to work out what to base your opinions on.
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The Leave campaign have stated that money saved from our weekly EU contribution will be spent on the NHS, it is printed in 3 foot high letters on the side of the battlebus so it would be nigh on impossible to renege on that promise.
Most of the misinformation has been from the Remain side over the economy. They've teed-up a list of economists to produce forecasts of gloom and doom covering twenty years or more after a Brexit, and yet if you look back it becomes clear that historically these so called experts have been unable to accurately predict anything regarding economics over even a six month period let alone ten to twenty years - just another stitch up by the dave and george media manipulation machine :police:
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The Leave campaign have stated that money saved from our weekly EU contribution will be spent on the NHS, it is printed in 3 foot high letters on the side of the battlebus so it would be nigh on impossible to renege on that promise.
Most of the misinformation has been from the Remain side over the economy. They've teed-up a list of economists to produce forecasts of gloom and doom covering twenty years or more after a Brexit, and yet if you look back it becomes clear that historically these so called experts have been unable to accurately predict anything regarding economics over even a six month period let alone ten to twenty years - just another stitch up by the dave and george media manipulation machine :police:
Re the Remain camp, I agree, they've made plenty of dubious claims, as someone who's pro remain, Cameron has done more to pursuade me to change my mind and vote out than any of the Out campaigners! People often mistake economics for a science when it is anything but. However, I think you are being incredibly blinkered if you think that remain are the only ones telling porkies. As an example, you quote that they will spend the money saved from EU contributions to reinvest in the NHS. That figure itself is highly dubious and the figure used by Gove, Johnson etc has even been disowned by Farage. I'd say it's nigh on impossible for you to quantify how much we make or lose from our EU contribution because there are many unquantifiable benefits to being in the EU and common market currently.
So both sides are lying and basically voting out is a jump into the unknown. It could be a huge success to exit, or it could be an utter disaster. It could be that it's about the same. My personal feeling is that whatever happens, we are going to need to continue to trade with the EU and therefore will have to continue to adhere to EU regulations. With that in mind, I'd sooner remain and have an opportunity to mould the conditions than to be on the outside. With a seat at the table we retain some control and the opportunity to press for reform the policies we don't like.
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The truth is we are little more than an onlooker anyway.
We have not embraced fully the concept of an united Europe.
We are about the only country in the EU where we have to show a passport( I am in agreement with this )
We are not a part of the Euro ( I am in agreement with this )
We are on the outside looking in on an exclusive club.
On most votes we only have the power of veto.
A bit like the Eurovision song contest :D
Let's get out and be done with it, and be in control of our own future. Even if it is with Dodgey Dave or Corbyn the red.
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I am completely with Maxross with on the NHS but would go further to say the demise began in the Thatcher years. Having been an NHS employee from the early 70's have witnessed many changes including some of the last 6 years before retiring. The increasing pressure to perform efficiently with a continuing raise in expectations from both management and the public whilst increasingly working with less resources is totally demoralising and to some extent demotivating. I personally feel they are all heroes for sticking with it!! I also agree most definitely with the need for an increase in funding and am sure virtually every taxpayer in the Uk would be happy to contribute extra tax to meet the need.
Referring to the US comparison, earlier this year had a couple of Americans staying who needed to avail themselves of our NHS one with a GP visit and the other to our Pilgrim A&E both were more than well satisfied with the care they received, particularly the one who visited A&E, after a thorough examination investigations advice,reassurance and a prescription, which gave him the peace of mind he was able to continue his trip. He was gobsmacked that it was free at source.
With regards to the 3 foot high letters one of the promoters has already admitted in recent days during a TV interview that not all of the money would go straight to the NHS!!!
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The truth is we are little more than an onlooker anyway.
We have not embraced fully the concept of an united Europe.
We are about the only country in the EU where we have to show a passport( I am in agreement with this )
We are not a part of the Euro ( I am in agreement with this )
We are on the outside looking in on an exclusive club.
On most votes we only have the power of veto.
A bit like the Eurovision song contest :D
Let's get out and be done with it, and be in control of our own future. Even if it is with Dodgey Dave or Corbyn the red.
The problem is, we can't be "out and done with it" because lots of our trade is inextricably linked with the EU in both directions. Like it or not, we will still have to trade within the common market and we will still be subjected to EU regulations. To go a little further, I can't image the EU will want to show us to be doing better for leaving so they will no doubt drive a hard bargain if we wish to continue trading with them to disuade any other nations doing the same thing. They will do this because the very existence of the EU depends on it. As it stands, as you pointed out, we have a veto. We won't have that if we leave.
Lady Gaga, I applaud you as I do all other NHS workers who are doing an incredible job in extremely challenging circumstances. I think the cat is out of the bag now that the market deregulation begun in the late 70's has been vastly damaging and caused massive inequality. With regards the US, a friend of mine suffered a punctured lung when a local nut stabbed him. He was in hospital for 4 days during a visit over there and was slapped with a bill of £$23,000 which his insurance company refused to pay out on. At one point they took his passport and said he wouldn't get it back unless he paid up!
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The truth is we are little more than an onlooker anyway.
We have not embraced fully the concept of an united Europe.
We are about the only country in the EU where we have to show a passport( I am in agreement with this )
We are not a part of the Euro ( I am in agreement with this )
We are on the outside looking in on an exclusive club.
On most votes we only have the power of veto.
A bit like the Eurovision song contest :D
Let's get out and be done with it, and be in control of our own future. Even if it is with Dodgey Dave or Corbyn the red.
The problem is, we can't be "out and done with it" because lots of our trade is inextricably linked with the EU in both directions. Like it or not, we will still have to trade within the common market and we will still be subjected to EU regulations. To go a little further, I can't image the EU will want to show us to be doing better for leaving so they will no doubt drive a hard bargain if we wish to continue trading with them to disuade any other nations doing the same thing. They will do this because the very existence of the EU depends on it. As it stands, as you pointed out, we have a veto. We won't have that if we leave.
Lady Gaga, I applaud you as I do all other NHS workers who are doing an incredible job in extremely challenging circumstances. I think the cat is out of the bag now that the market deregulation begun in the late 70's has been vastly damaging and caused massive inequality. With regards the US, a friend of mine suffered a punctured lung when a local nut stabbed him. He was in hospital for 4 days during a visit over there and was slapped with a bill of £$23,000 which his insurance company refused to pay out on. At one point they took his passport and said he wouldn't get it back unless he paid up!
Thatcher, was heralded as one of Britain's greatest Prime Ministers.
When you look back at the things that went on under her tenure ( Savile, Hillsborough, Cosgrove, Belgrano, mass privatisation, the Poll tax, mortgage rates 15%, the selling off to her cronies of Bt, British Gas, British rail and the Cyril Smith cover up ) yet people still yearn for her policies. >:(
I think it was Claire Raynor's last words " Do not let them mess up my beloved NHS "
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The truth is we are little more than an onlooker anyway.
We have not embraced fully the concept of an united Europe.
We are about the only country in the EU where we have to show a passport( I am in agreement with this )
We are not a part of the Euro ( I am in agreement with this )
We are on the outside looking in on an exclusive club.
On most votes we only have the power of veto.
A bit like the Eurovision song contest :D
Let's get out and be done with it, and be in control of our own future. Even if it is with Dodgey Dave or Corbyn the red.
The problem is, we can't be "out and done with it" because lots of our trade is inextricably linked with the EU in both directions. Like it or not, we will still have to trade within the common market and we will still be subjected to EU regulations. To go a little further, I can't image the EU will want to show us to be doing better for leaving so they will no doubt drive a hard bargain if we wish to continue trading with them to disuade any other nations doing the same thing. They will do this because the very existence of the EU depends on it. As it stands, as you pointed out, we have a veto. We won't have that if we leave.
Lady Gaga, I applaud you as I do all other NHS workers who are doing an incredible job in extremely challenging circumstances. I think the cat is out of the bag now that the market deregulation begun in the late 70's has been vastly damaging and caused massive inequality. With regards the US, a friend of mine suffered a punctured lung when a local nut stabbed him. He was in hospital for 4 days during a visit over there and was slapped with a bill of £$23,000 which his insurance company refused to pay out on. At one point they took his passport and said he wouldn't get it back unless he paid up!
Thatcher, was heralded as one of Britain's greatest Prime Ministers.
When you look back at the things that went on under her tenure ( Savile, Hillsborough, Cosgrove, Belgrano, mass privatisation, the Poll tax, mortgage rates 15%, the selling off to her cronies of Bt, British Gas, British rail and the Cyril Smith cover up ) yet people still yearn for her policies. >:(
I think it was Claire Raynor's last words " Do not let them mess up my beloved NHS "
Yes, the NHS is definitely something worth fighting for and something that should be kept out of private hands at all costs. As soon as profit becomes a consideration in the administration of care, huge conflicts of interest will become apparent. i don't think Brexit is what will save the NHS though. There are plenty of examples on the continent of industry's that remain in government hands. When David Cameron was negotiating his terms with the EU, TTIP and the EU weren't mentioned at all and there have been no serious attempts by our present government to exempt the NHS from the agreement. As IDS, Gove, Johnson etc are all to the right of Cameron, I highly doubt they will make any extra effort than has already been made.
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There is now very little doubt that if we remain in the EU then the NHS as we know it will eventually cease to exist.
Also, if we remain in the EU, with no control over who enters our country, before it ceases to exist in it's present form it will become increasingly under pressure and unable to cope with demand.
The timescale for these two eventualities is impossible to ascertain, but we know that in Germany for example, the millions of migrants that Merkel is intent on letting in will be given EU passports if they stay, and will therefore be able to move to any part of the EU that they choose.
The same will apply to the millions of Turkish citizens who Cameron is so keen to let in to the EU despite what he is now saying. A few months ago he was telling the Turks that he was their greatest ally and was intent on fast-tracking their accession to the EU, now he is assuring the British public that it will be the year 3000 before they join; he will just say whatever suits his agenda at any given time.
The recent migrant deal the EU struck with Turkey is about to go tits up as Erdogan has sacked the man who did the deal and has taken control. Erdogan doesn't mess about and will be aiming for a far better deal; the EU, in the face of the migrant crisis, will find it difficult to say no to his demands.
So although we don't know exactly when it's going to happen we do know that the pressure on an underfunded NHS will increase if we stay in the EU, and also we know that it will eventually be sold off after TTIP is ratified.
If we vote out then we will immediately retake control of our borders and start restricting immigration numbers to a realistic level. The pressure on the NHS and other benefits systems will lessen, and additional money will be available to improve these services. Nobody knows the exact figures, but we do know that millions of pounds are transferred to the EU every week - this fact has never been disputed, the debates always end up in petty squabbles over the exact amount, how much we get back as a rebate etc, but these things don't make much difference, the fact is that millions of pounds that now leave our country every week will stay in this country if we vote to leave.
The other thing that we know for sure if we do leave the EU is that we will not have an unelected committee of faceless American and European corporate fat cats selling off our NHS.
If privatisation of the NHS does come up the British public will be in a position to vote against such a move whereas if we stay in we will not. :police:
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I'm afraid in or out the NHS will never be safe under the Conservatives! My feeling is either way it is only a matter of time😢.
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I'm afraid in or out the NHS will never be safe under the Conservatives! My feeling is either way it is only a matter of time😢.
half the problem with the nhs is the appts are taken by foreign nationals, currently legally here, but have never put anything into national ins payments, which is causing a deficit in funds. Add this to the fines the nhs have inflicted on them due to the waiting lists not being given appts in time, and there's no wonder it's in a mess. Easy answer, vote no, reduce the freeloaders and reduce waiting times and let the people who pay the national ins benefit in a more timely fashion....end result....a more stable nhs.
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It's not about the economy.
It's not about immigration.
It's not about trade.
It's not about the NHS.
It's not about who is or isn't telling the truth.
It's not about the fact that the European Union is in a state of near collapse that will drag us down with the rest if we stay, when it inevitably implodes.
It's about the treasonable act by those who signed away our sovereignty with the Maastricht Treaty. I do not wish and never have wished to give away my rights, enshrined in law, which still stands on the statute books despite the actions of the traitors, making me subservient to a European super state. A vote for that is a classical example of turkeys voting for Christmas.
It's that simple. I want my freedom as a British Citizen. Nothing, NOTHING else matters.
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I'm afraid in or out the NHS will never be safe under the Conservatives! My feeling is either way it is only a matter of time😢.
half the problem with the nhs is the appts are taken by foreign nationals, currently legally here, but have never put anything into national ins payments, which is causing a deficit in funds. Add this to the fines the nhs have inflicted on them due to the waiting lists not being given appts in time, and there's no wonder it's in a mess. Easy answer, vote no, reduce the freeloaders and reduce waiting times and let the people who pay the national ins benefit in a more timely fashion....end result....a more stable nhs.
Who pays more money in taxes 'foreign nationals' (which must include everyone who is not a UK citizen - French, Spanish, Italian, German, Chinese, Indian etc) or those UK citizens who are in receipt of job seeking benefits?
Of course there are other strains on the NHS; chronic underfunding, too many managers rather than physicians, an increase in demand on resources for obesity and mental health problems etc.
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Last day to register to vote.
Whether you vote remain or leave, VOTE.
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I'm afraid in or out the NHS will never be safe under the Conservatives! My feeling is either way it is only a matter of time😢.
half the problem with the nhs is the appts are taken by foreign nationals, currently legally here, but have never put anything into national ins payments, which is causing a deficit in funds. Add this to the fines the nhs have inflicted on them due to the waiting lists not being given appts in time, and there's no wonder it's in a mess. Easy answer, vote no, reduce the freeloaders and reduce waiting times and let the people who pay the national ins benefit in a more timely fashion....end result....a more stable nhs.
You do realise, I hope, that the foreign nationals who are 'currently legally here' will also be 'currently legally here' AFTER a Brexit vote? Unless they have committed a criminal offence, they will have the right to remain in the country. Furthermore, if we choose to remain as part of the single market, then freedom of movement will be retained, since it is a fundamental requirement of remaining. The UK will simply not be permitted any exemptions on this.
In any event, even if we choose to ditch the single market and its requirement for free movement as well, the numerous reciprocal travel arrangements made on a piecemeal basis after a Brexit vote will likely mean net migration is reduced, but by absolutely nowhere near the levels stated by the leave campaign. There will be no Australian style points-based system, and it is disingenuous of the leave campaign to suggest that there will be. If you're voting 'out' purely on the immigration issue, prepare to be horribly disappointed.
Here's some more information about the true, unrecoverable costs to the NHS from foreign visitors: https://fullfact.org/health/health-tourists-how-much-do-they-cost-and-who-pays/
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Ok, Let's address one point at a time.
There is now very little doubt that if we remain in the EU then the NHS as we know it will eventually cease to exist.
Also, if we remain in the EU, with no control over who enters our country, before it ceases to exist in it's present form it will become increasingly under pressure and unable to cope with demand.
As LadyGaGa pointed out, the NHS will never be safe under a conservative government. They ran it down in the 80’s under Thatcher and throughout the last 6 years they have run it down again.
"That’s the standard technique of privatization: defund, make sure things don’t work, people get angry, then you hand it over to private capital."
Noam Chomsky
Sound familiar?
In or out, the NHS is screwed so long as we have a Tory government. If you have any evidence to dispute that, go ahead and post it otherwise I will assume we all agree on that point.
The timescale for these two eventualities is impossible to ascertain, but we know that in Germany for example, the millions of migrants that Merkel is intent on letting in will be given EU passports if they stay, and will therefore be able to move to any part of the EU that they choose.
The same will apply to the millions of Turkish citizens who Cameron is so keen to let in to the EU despite what he is now saying.
The first thing I simply have to do is take issue with your use of the term “migrant” with regard the people whom Germany has taken in. I assume you are talking about the 800,000 Syrians that ended up in Germany? They are Refugees. What we are seeing here is a massive fallout from the wars that have been raging in Syria and Iraq. If you wish to get into the why’s what’s and whatever’s that another discussion but in a nutshell, that entire region was completely destabilized by the U.S.’s (backed by Europe and particularly the UK) desire for regime change in several countries. You don’t have to look too far using Google to see the kind of devastation that they are fleeing and I think a bit of humanity wouldn’t go amiss.
So I think that’s the first issue we need to address which is to distinguish between economic migrant and refugees. We have economic migrants which are those coming from the likes of Eastern Europe to create a better life for themselves and refugees who are entering bordering nations on an unprecedented scale to escape the devastation in their own nations. I think Turkey as a nation is taking a heavy brunt from the latter and is looking to the west to help take some of the burden.
We can debate the rights and wrongs of all that, but again, that’s another more dedicated discussion.
Nobody knows the exact figures, but we do know that millions of pounds are transferred to the EU every week - this fact has never been disputed, the debates always end up in petty squabbles over the exact amount, how much we get back as a rebate etc, but these things don't make much difference, the fact is that millions of pounds that now leave our country every week will stay in this country if we vote to leave.
The petty squabbles over exactly how much are of the order of about £200m a week, so not exactly insignificant. The main problem is though, that you have simplified the fee we are paying into a simple cash equation, i.e. we pay £xm per week for membership… and that it. It’s a bit more complicated than that. As I mentioned on a previous post, there are many unquantifiable benefits of being in the EU, the most obvious being access to the free market. That means anything any company in this country makes can be sold anywhere in the EU without paying any kind of tariffs or duties. Companies such as the Japanese car makers Nissan and Toyota build their cars in the UK, employing thousands, so that they can sell them throughout the EU without paying import tariffs. The UK is attractive to them because we are members of the EU and common market.
I could go on, but I think you will find that the common market gives our economy a large boost in terms of GDP (Gross Domestic Product) and also in terms of employment, tax receipts, etc. It has been pointed out by several economist that as little as a 0.7% drop in our GDP would result in us losing more than the cost of EU membership. We may go it alone and be successful, but it is a jump into the unknown. Therefore, it is s a risk economically and as yet, the Out campaign have failed to produce any kind of credible economic plan. It's all very well saying we'll negotiate, but for me, its too big a decision to be left down to these kind of back of a fag packet plans.
The other thing that we know for sure if we do leave the EU is that we will not have an unelected committee of faceless American and European corporate fat cats selling off our NHS.
How naïve, if we vote out that is precisely what we will end up with. Just look at the credentials of all of those involved in the Out campaign, even "man of the people" Nigel Farage is an ex banker. If we isolate ourselves from Europe, we will be forced into an even cosier alliance with the Americans. Check out the trade agreements they have already signed with Canada and Mexico and decide for yourself what kind of deal we will get on our own with BoJo at the helm.
I totally agree with Dipdodah though, whatever your opinion, make sure you do actually get out and vote!
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The word 'migrant' means someone who moves from one country to another, the reasons for this movement can vary but the definition of the word remains the same.
Without going through all this obfuscation and disinformation the facts remain clear :-
Vote in for mass uncontrolled immigration and the selling off of our NHS, and most importantly as Fairfax has said, the complete loss of our sovereignity.
Vote out for control of our borders, for the opportunity to vote out any future government that wants to privatise the NHS, and vote out to avoid losing our hard fought for Sovereignity and to avoid being dictated to by a bunch of unelected, unremoveable, faceless beaurocrats.
Whether anyone votes or not would appear to ultimately be a personal choice IMO, no need for patronising comments on that score :dan
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The word 'migrant' means someone who moves from one country to another, the reasons for this movement can vary but the definition of the word remains the same.
Without going through all this obfuscation and disinformation the facts remain clear :-
Vote in for mass uncontrolled immigration and the selling off of our NHS, and most importantly as Fairfax has said, the complete loss of our sovereignity.
Vote out for control of our borders, for the opportunity to vote out any future government that wants to privatise the NHS, and vote out to avoid losing our hard fought for Sovereignity and to avoid being dictated to by a bunch of unelected, unremoveable, faceless beaurocrats.
Whether anyone votes or not would appear to ultimately be a personal choice IMO, no need for patronising comments on that score :dan
Quick 'fact' check here:-
1 - 'Unelected' - incorrect, we elect the European Parliament every five years.
2 - 'Dictated to' - incorrect, only the *elected* EU Parliament has the power to create EU laws. The EU Commission, which includes representation from the United Kingdom, merely helps enforce them.
3 - 'Control of borders' - see my post above. If we leave the European Union but remain in the European Economic Area, we must also retain the free movement of people, which means there will quite literally be NO change to the current border arrangements. If we opt to leave the common market, then the oft-touted benefits of 'being like Norway' would no longer apply. We might choose to defy the treaty and impose a cap anyway - this will come with consequences.
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The word 'migrant' means someone who moves from one country to another, the reasons for this movement can vary but the definition of the word remains the same.
Without going through all this obfuscation and disinformation the facts remain clear :-
Vote in for mass uncontrolled immigration and the selling off of our NHS, and most importantly as Fairfax has said, the complete loss of our sovereignity.
Vote out for control of our borders, for the opportunity to vote out any future government that wants to privatise the NHS, and vote out to avoid losing our hard fought for Sovereignity and to avoid being dictated to by a bunch of unelected, unremoveable, faceless beaurocrats.
Whether anyone votes or not would appear to ultimately be a personal choice IMO, no need for patronising comments on that score :dan
You've pretty much proven what I suspected which is that you are closed minded. You have described reasoned debate as "obfuscation and disinformation". In other words, anything you disagree with is disinformation and anything you agree with is fact. That's fair enough of course, you're entitled to an opinion, but then so are other people so don't be surprised if you get challenged on it when you post it on here or on other public forums. I'm open minded and if you can disprove anything I've posted, feel free to challenge it and if merited, I'll change my opinion accordingly.
Regarding the term "migrant", the full definition is pretty specific according to my dictionary and is as follows "a person who moves from one place to another to find work or better living conditions". (I guess you just quoted the bit you agreed with and ignored the bit you didn't assuming it to be "disinformation"!!) I suppose you could stretch "better living conditions" to avoiding being murdered by ISIS, but I'd consider that a bit of an understatement personally. The definition of Refugee : "a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution or natural disaster". I think those definitions vindicate my original point personally.
Regarding me encouraging people to vote. I'm genuinely sorry if you felt patronised, however, voter apathy is a major issue, with our current government being elected by just 24% of the eligible population. I won't apologise for encouraging people to exercise their democratic right on such an important issue that will have long lasting effects whichever way it goes. Even if an increased turnout means Exit wins, I would still encourage people to vote.
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Whilst the subject is worthy of debate I would like to know the In or out at the football club. There has been little information regarding the retained list which was always available from John Blackwell. Three signings have been made and Jay Rollins and two or three who played bit parts last season. I have purchased my season ticket but the lack of information coming from the club is doing nothing to promote these sales. The Chairman stated the playing budget had been improved and there would be initiatives to raise money for the shortfall on the new stadium funds, What are they? and when will be able to offer our help as supporters?. This season is going to be tough and we need to be hitting the ground running and not repeating the failures of last year. I accept the manager may be well into the process of getting players in and is not in a position to reveal until they have signed on the dotted line, but surely someone at the club should be keeping the fans interested.
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Whilst the subject is worthy of debate I would like to know the In or out at the football club. There has been little information regarding the retained list which was always available from John Blackwell. Three signings have been made and Jay Rollins and two or three who played bit parts last season. I have purchased my season ticket but the lack of information coming from the club is doing nothing to promote these sales. The Chairman stated the playing budget had been improved and there would be initiatives to raise money for the shortfall on the new stadium funds, What are they? and when will be able to offer our help as supporters?. This season is going to be tough and we need to be hitting the ground running and not repeating the failures of last year. I accept the manager may be well into the process of getting players in and is not in a position to reveal until they have signed on the dotted line, but surely someone at the club should be keeping the fans interested.
Well while I was writing the above the club reveals information I am asking foral though it is not very encouraging.
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This is quite troubling if true:
http://www.thecanary.co/2016/06/07/vote-leave-caught-playing-dirty-trick-people-registering-vote-images/
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Don,t think anyone will rush out to vote on the basis of the Cameron v Farage debate last night , weak performance from both .
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I am going to throw in a conspiracy theory ;)
With the registration website overloading last night, and the deadline to register now tomorrow, who would this hiccup help most?
Leave or remain? Considering the majority of people struggling to register are younger voters ???
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I'm not really sure what you are trying to insinuate. I assume you think it is a pro remain ploy to register more young voters who will inevitably vote in?
If so, I think you are wrong. Firstly I think it's a misconception (and frankly patronising) to think that all young voters will blindly vote remain. I have many young friends who I have debated who would like to leave. Secondly, if your goal is only to win, then you can view this as a conspiracy. However, if your goal is to make sure that anyone who wants to vote can vote, then surely it can only be seen as a positive? This is a huge decision for the country and I personally think that vote should be as democratic as possible. We don't want any vote questioned afterwards by people saying they couldn't vote.
I don't know if any of you have seen this already, but it is a good balanced piece on the EU by Martin Lewis (money saving expert)
http://www.mirror.co.uk/money/money-saving-expert-martin-lewis-8121255
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Getting very dirty, better than Eastenders.
The leave vote are leading on three polls, you will now see the dirty tricks.
Sarah Wollaston, leaves Brexit stating that £350 million per week going towards NHS is untrue.
Have I missed something? I thought Brexit claimed that £350 per week paid to the EU could go towards the NHS, not would.
Also £350 million is not the net figure, which is lower than the figure shown.
Can someone show the true figure Britain pays?
Claims and counter claims, no wonder the don't knows are confused.
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I'm not really sure what you are trying to insinuate. I assume you think it is a pro remain ploy to register more young voters who will inevitably vote in?
If so, I think you are wrong. Firstly I think it's a misconception (and frankly patronising) to think that all young voters will blindly vote remain. I have many young friends who I have debated who would like to leave. Secondly, if your goal is only to win, then you can view this as a conspiracy. However, if your goal is to make sure that anyone who wants to vote can vote, then surely it can only be seen as a positive? This is a huge decision for the country and I personally think that vote should be as democratic as possible. We don't want any vote questioned afterwards by people saying they couldn't vote.
I don't know if any of you have seen this already, but it is a good balanced piece on the EU by Martin Lewis (money saving expert)
http://www.mirror.co.uk/money/money-saving-expert-martin-lewis-8121255
Fact: The leave vote is by a big margin made up of middle aged mainly male voters. The Labour party has been worried about this and last week took action to convert these to vote remain. So on my working out, if you take these away it leaves the younger voter more likely to vote remain. So the extension of the deadline was to accommodate the younger voter who had left it to the last minute to register. Most of these are registering after coming of age. Only repeating what was on TV news. So it makes sense that the extension helps the remain camp on the above information.
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Getting very dirty, better than Eastenders.
The leave vote are leading on three polls, you will now see the dirty tricks.
Sarah Wollaston, leaves Brexit stating that £350 million per week going towards NHS is untrue.
Have I missed something? I thought Brexit claimed that £350 per week paid to the EU could go towards the NHS, not would.
Also £350 million is not the net figure, which is lower than the figure shown.
Can someone show the true figure Britain pays?
Claims and counter claims, no wonder the don't knows are confused.
The potential for £350m a week to be channelled to the NHS in the event of a Brexit vote is a nonsense figure and has been known to be a nonsense figure for a while:-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36040060
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It will probably help the remain campaign, but why are there so many idiots who chose to play Russian Roulette with their right to vote by playing a game of leaving it late?
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Getting very dirty, better than Eastenders.
The leave vote are leading on three polls, you will now see the dirty tricks.
Sarah Wollaston, leaves Brexit stating that £350 million per week going towards NHS is untrue.
Have I missed something? I thought Brexit claimed that £350 per week paid to the EU could go towards the NHS, not would.
Also £350 million is not the net figure, which is lower than the figure shown.
Can someone show the true figure Britain pays?
Claims and counter claims, no wonder the don't knows are confused.
The potential for £350m a week to be channelled to the NHS in the event of a Brexit vote is a nonsense figure and has been known to be a nonsense figure for a while:-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36040060
The article Pete has posted absolutely demolishes the £350m per week myth. It has also been pointed out by the IFS that a contraction of just 0.6% in our economy would result in us losing more than the cost of membership - see here
http://www.ifs.org.uk/about/blog/346
The question is, why are these erroneous, discredited figures still being used? Even Nigel Farage refuses to use the £350m as he knows it to be wrong. Despite this, BoJo has it plastered across the side of his battle bus.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/27/uk-statistics-chief-vote-leave-350m-figure-misleading
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I'm not really sure what you are trying to insinuate. I assume you think it is a pro remain ploy to register more young voters who will inevitably vote in?
If so, I think you are wrong. Firstly I think it's a misconception (and frankly patronising) to think that all young voters will blindly vote remain. I have many young friends who I have debated who would like to leave. Secondly, if your goal is only to win, then you can view this as a conspiracy. However, if your goal is to make sure that anyone who wants to vote can vote, then surely it can only be seen as a positive? This is a huge decision for the country and I personally think that vote should be as democratic as possible. We don't want any vote questioned afterwards by people saying they couldn't vote.
I don't know if any of you have seen this already, but it is a good balanced piece on the EU by Martin Lewis (money saving expert)
http://www.mirror.co.uk/money/money-saving-expert-martin-lewis-8121255
Fact: The leave vote is by a big margin made up of middle aged mainly male voters. The Labour party has been worried about this and last week took action to convert these to vote remain. So on my working out, if you take these away it leaves the younger voter more likely to vote remain. So the extension of the deadline was to accommodate the younger voter who had left it to the last minute to register. Most of these are registering after coming of age. Only repeating what was on TV news. So it makes sense that the extension helps the remain camp on the above information.
So if vote leave are ahead in the polls, by a process of extrapolation we can conclude that the vast majority of those registered to vote are middle aged men? Very democratic! I'm being facetious of course, but seriously is it more important for you to win or to make sure that the vote is as democratic as possible by getting as many people registered to vote as possible? Also, the registration period has been extended for everyone, not just the young so any of the hoardes of pro brexit middle aged men in the population can also get themselves registered if they wish.
Regarding Polls, we saw at the last general election how reliable they can be. My feeling is that there are plenty of young people who are pro brexit and plenty of older people (including middle aged men) who are pro remain.
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I think it,s well established now that both sides are a pack of liars , all we,ve got to do now is decide which mob to vote for .
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Your first piece of disinformation:-
In or out, the NHS is screwed so long as we have a Tory government. If you have any evidence to dispute that, go ahead and post it otherwise I will assume we all agree on that point.
The NHS is screwed if we remain in the EU, you can assume whatever you like, but once TTIP is in place the NHS will be sold off/privatised, the leaked Brussels papers make that quite clear.
If we vote out and a future UK government decides it wants to privatise the NHS, that government can be voted out by this country's electorate 8)
Your first piece of obfuscation:-
The timescale for these two eventualities is impossible to ascertain, but we know that in Germany for example, the millions of migrants that Merkel is intent on letting in will be given EU passports if they stay, and will therefore be able to move to any part of the EU that they choose.
The same will apply to the millions of Turkish citizens who Cameron is so keen to let in to the EU despite what he is now saying.
The first thing I simply have to do is take issue with your use of the term “migrant” with regard the people whom Germany has taken in. I assume you are talking about the 800,000 Syrians that ended up in Germany? They are Refugees. What we are seeing here is a massive fallout from the wars that have been raging in Syria and Iraq. If you wish to get into the why’s what’s and whatever’s that another discussion but in a nutshell, that entire region was completely destabilized by the U.S.’s (backed by Europe and particularly the UK) desire for regime change in several countries. You don’t have to look too far using Google to see the kind of devastation that they are fleeing and I think a bit of humanity wouldn’t go amiss.
So I think that’s the first issue we need to address which is to distinguish between economic migrant and refugees. We have economic migrants which are those coming from the likes of Eastern Europe to create a better life for themselves and refugees who are entering bordering nations on an unprecedented scale to escape the devastation in their own nations. I think Turkey as a nation is taking a heavy brunt from the latter and is looking to the west to help take some of the burden.
We can debate the rights and wrongs of all that, but again, that’s another more dedicated discussion.
You need to try to control those emotional thoughts that the word 'migrant' has triggered off in your mind. My usage of the word is entirely correct in the context of the logistics of people moving from one country to another.
Your response is typical of the sort of garbage the BBC has subjected us to on their televised debates; whenever the subject of the logistical problems surrounding a mass influx of humanity into a country whose benefits systems are already at full stretch comes up, the Remain side always throws up this smokescreen of emotional claptrap.
The human cost of it all is obviously desperately sad, but if we all stand around wringing our hands and emoting everywhere we just divert attention away from the point of the discussion, which is obviously your intent :'(
The point is that if we don't take back control of our borders and control the numbers entering our country our services will soon be at breaking point.
Another fine piece of obfuscation:-
Nobody knows the exact figures, but we do know that millions of pounds are transferred to the EU every week - this fact has never been disputed, the debates always end up in petty squabbles over the exact amount, how much we get back as a rebate etc, but these things don't make much difference, the fact is that millions of pounds that now leave our country every week will stay in this country if we vote to leave.
The petty squabbles over exactly how much are of the order of about £200m a week, so not exactly insignificant. The main problem is though, that you have simplified the fee we are paying into a simple cash equation, i.e. we pay £xm per week for membership… and that it. It’s a bit more complicated than that. As I mentioned on a previous post, there are many unquantifiable benefits of being in the EU, the most obvious being access to the free market. That means anything any company in this country makes can be sold anywhere in the EU without paying any kind of tariffs or duties. Companies such as the Japanese car makers Nissan and Toyota build their cars in the UK, employing thousands, so that they can sell them throughout the EU without paying import tariffs. The UK is attractive to them because we are members of the EU and common market.
I could go on, but I think you will find that the common market gives our economy a large boost in terms of GDP (Gross Domestic Product) and also in terms of employment, tax receipts, etc. It has been pointed out by several economist that as little as a 0.7% drop in our GDP would result in us losing more than the cost of EU membership. We may go it alone and be successful, but it is a jump into the unknown. Therefore, it is s a risk economically and as yet, the Out campaign have failed to produce any kind of credible economic plan. It's all very well saying we'll negotiate, but for me, its too big a decision to be left down to these kind of back of a fag packet plans.
You've been watching too many TV debates, same old b*llocks every time ???
Nobody knows the exact figures, but we do know that millions of pounds are transferred to the EU every week - this fact has never been disputed, the debates always end up in petty squabbles over the exact amount, how much we get back as a rebate etc, but these things don't make much difference, the fact is that millions of pounds that now leave our country every week will stay in this country if we vote to leave.
If it makes it any easier to have something empirical to wrap your mind around, the ONS gives the estimated net UK contribution, after rebates etc as £70 billion over the next five years.
You can debate the figure until you fall over backwards foaming at the mouth, nobody knows what it is, but we do know that we will save a couple of quid by voting out.
And finally, a nicely blended mix of disinformation, obfuscation, and just plain old dislike for members of the Leave campaign :-
The other thing that we know for sure if we do leave the EU is that we will not have an unelected committee of faceless American and European corporate fat cats selling off our NHS.
How naïve, if we vote out that is precisely what we will end up with. Just look at the credentials of all of those involved in the Out campaign, even "man of the people" Nigel Farage is an ex banker. If we isolate ourselves from Europe, we will be forced into an even cosier alliance with the Americans. Check out the trade agreements they have already signed with Canada and Mexico and decide for yourself what kind of deal we will get on our own with BoJo at the helm.
Whatever any future alliance with the Americans would be, we would still be in control of the future of our NHS as we can vote down any proposals to privatise it
If we stay in, and TTIP is eventually ratified, there would be no hope of keeping it as Aneurin Bevan intended.
The leaked Brussels papers show that a TTIP committee would be appointed (not elected) and there would be no guarantee that the UK would even be represented. Assuming there was a UK representative and he or she argued for keeping the NHS, if he was successful, we would then be guilty of distorting the market and our government woud be open to a legal claim amounting to billions of pounds.
As far as the NHS goes, it is quite clear that if we stay in we will eventually lose it and have to pay for private healthcare;
whereas if we vote out we will always have the opportunity to vote to keep it :police:
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I think it,s well established now that both sides are a pack of liars , all we,ve got to do now is decide which mob to vote for .
Which ever way we vote, we will still get shafted.
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I'm not really sure what you are trying to insinuate. I assume you think it is a pro remain ploy to register more young voters who will inevitably vote in?
If so, I think you are wrong. Firstly I think it's a misconception (and frankly patronising) to think that all young voters will blindly vote remain. I have many young friends who I have debated who would like to leave. Secondly, if your goal is only to win, then you can view this as a conspiracy. However, if your goal is to make sure that anyone who wants to vote can vote, then surely it can only be seen as a positive? This is a huge decision for the country and I personally think that vote should be as democratic as possible. We don't want any vote questioned afterwards by people saying they couldn't vote.
I don't know if any of you have seen this already, but it is a good balanced piece on the EU by Martin Lewis (money saving expert)
http://www.mirror.co.uk/money/money-saving-expert-martin-lewis-8121255
Fact: The leave vote is by a big margin made up of middle aged mainly male voters. The Labour party has been worried about this and last week took action to convert these to vote remain. So on my working out, if you take these away it leaves the younger voter more likely to vote remain. So the extension of the deadline was to accommodate the younger voter who had left it to the last minute to register. Most of these are registering after coming of age. Only repeating what was on TV news. So it makes sense that the extension helps the remain camp on the above information.
Makes you wonder why they extended it by 48 hours rather than the 2 hours it was out of action for.
It could have been reopened from 10pm until midnight on the following day.
It will be interesting to see if there is a judicial review application. In judicial review applications you have to be seen to have acted 'promptly', and can be penalised even if your application is lodged with the court within the six week timespan, but towards the end of that period.
The judge's opinion of people leaving it until the last minute to vote could be crucial. If they get the application approved quickly then there would be little point in going ahead on June 23rd.
The other point about this is that it wouldn't have taken a genius to predict that there was going to be this last minute demand to register, so why didn't they arrange for infinite back-up capacity for that day along the lines of Google/Facebook?
Its not difficult, but can be expensive. Cameron could have used that £9million he spent on those Remain leaflets to good effect instead of throwing taxpayers' money into rubbish skips outside No10 :dan
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Getting very dirty, better than Eastenders.
The leave vote are leading on three polls, you will now see the dirty tricks.
Sarah Wollaston, leaves Brexit stating that £350 million per week going towards NHS is untrue.
Have I missed something? I thought Brexit claimed that £350 per week paid to the EU could go towards the NHS, not would.
Also £350 million is not the net figure, which is lower than the figure shown.
Can someone show the true figure Britain pays?
Claims and counter claims, no wonder the don't knows are confused.
Sarah Wollaston is the first of the stool pigeons to break cover :laugh:
There will probably be a few more before the big day :dan
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Getting very dirty, better than Eastenders.
The leave vote are leading on three polls, you will now see the dirty tricks.
Sarah Wollaston, leaves Brexit stating that £350 million per week going towards NHS is untrue.
Have I missed something? I thought Brexit claimed that £350 per week paid to the EU could go towards the NHS, not would.
Also £350 million is not the net figure, which is lower than the figure shown.
Can someone show the true figure Britain pays?
Claims and counter claims, no wonder the don't knows are confused.
Sarah Wollaston is the first of the stool pigeons to break cover :laugh:
There will probably be a few more before the big day :dan
I agree, I think she was a sleeper.
If Johnson, Gove, or IDS break cover then we do know we have been conned ;)
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I have been really interested in reading the debate on here, whether we are being conned or not by one side or the other, I'm still bloody confused!!!!
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If you have any evidence to dispute that, go ahead and post it otherwise I will assume we all agree on that
Using that logic you could assume that we all agree that the Christian's God is a three legged wombat?
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Your first piece of disinformation:-
In or out, the NHS is screwed so long as we have a Tory government. If you have any evidence to dispute that, go ahead and post it otherwise I will assume we all agree on that point.
The NHS is screwed if we remain in the EU, you can assume whatever you like, but once TTIP is in place the NHS will be sold off/privatised, the leaked Brussels papers make that quite clear.
If we vote out and a future UK government decides it wants to privatise the NHS, that government can be voted out by this country's electorate 8)
Firstly as I have repeatedly made clear, I absolutely agree that TTIP is a terrible threat to our future, not just with the NHS but with lots of other national and sovereign interests. That’s common ground between us so you don’t need to keep beating that drum. The point I’m trying to make is that the Tory’s have done nothing during the past 37 years to suggest they intend to do anything but privatise the NHS. Yes, in theory you could vote them out if they try to privatise it, but they are only 1 year into a 5 year term so you’d have to wait until 2020. That process may even have already started via the back door:
http://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2015/oct/02/nhs-one-way-road-privatisation
The individuals in the Brexit camp now claiming to be the white knights riding in to save the NHS almost exclusively reside on the right of the party and subscribe to free market economics. Nigel Farage and Paul Nuttel of UKIP have both made clear in the past that they would like to privatise the NHS. Labour under Jeremy Corbyn are the only party who have committed themselves to vetoing TTIP and stopping the privatisation of the NHS. However, his chances of getting elected with a hostile media are very low.
So the point I’m trying to make is that to argue that the NHS can only be saved by exiting the EU is kind of irrelevant. The Brexit campaign are using it to pull on the public heartstrings and basically using it as a political football.
So let me ask you a direct question Ed Kandi: Do you really think the Tory’s will save the NHS post exit? And if not, who will?
Your first piece of obfuscation:-
The timescale for these two eventualities is impossible to ascertain, but we know that in Germany for example, the millions of migrants that Merkel is intent on letting in will be given EU passports if they stay, and will therefore be able to move to any part of the EU that they choose.
The same will apply to the millions of Turkish citizens who Cameron is so keen to let in to the EU despite what he is now saying.
The first thing I simply have to do is take issue with your use of the term “migrant” with regard the people whom Germany has taken in. I assume you are talking about the 800,000 Syrians that ended up in Germany? They are Refugees. What we are seeing here is a massive fallout from the wars that have been raging in Syria and Iraq. If you wish to get into the why’s what’s and whatever’s that another discussion but in a nutshell, that entire region was completely destabilized by the U.S.’s (backed by Europe and particularly the UK) desire for regime change in several countries. You don’t have to look too far using Google to see the kind of devastation that they are fleeing and I think a bit of humanity wouldn’t go amiss.
So I think that’s the first issue we need to address which is to distinguish between economic migrant and refugees. We have economic migrants which are those coming from the likes of Eastern Europe to create a better life for themselves and refugees who are entering bordering nations on an unprecedented scale to escape the devastation in their own nations. I think Turkey as a nation is taking a heavy brunt from the latter and is looking to the west to help take some of the burden.
We can debate the rights and wrongs of all that, but again, that’s another more dedicated discussion.
You need to try to control those emotional thoughts that the word 'migrant' has triggered off in your mind. My usage of the word is entirely correct in the context of the logistics of people moving from one country to another.
Your response is typical of the sort of garbage the BBC has subjected us to on their televised debates; whenever the subject of the logistical problems surrounding a mass influx of humanity into a country whose benefits systems are already at full stretch comes up, the Remain side always throws up this smokescreen of emotional claptrap.
The human cost of it all is obviously desperately sad, but if we all stand around wringing our hands and emoting everywhere we just divert attention away from the point of the discussion, which is obviously your intent :'(
The point is that if we don't take back control of our borders and control the numbers entering our country our services will soon be at breaking point.
People should decide the appropriate terms for themselves, but here are the dictionary definitions again:
Migrant: a person who moves from one place to another in order to find work or better living conditions
Refugee: a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster
There’s no emotion getting involved at all my friend, just logic. I think you are just plain wrong on this point I’m afraid. I’m willing to concede that the vast number of individuals in both Boston and the UK generally are migrants. Refugees aren’t really an issue over in the UK due to Mr Cameron only being prepared to take a few thousand. But the individuals whom you were so concerned about getting passports after they were brought to Germany are Refugees. That distinction needs to be made, and it’s actually in the interests of your argument to do that. I think the general population are much more sympathetic to the idea of limiting migration but when some kind of natural disaster or war occurs then we simply have to act. That’s actually very much a British trait and one of the reasons I’m so proud to be British. We have always as a nation been prepared to hold out our hand and held out people when they are in trouble. The issue in Syria is real, these people are stuck in a war between Assad and ISIS whilst having to dodge bombs from the Russians, Americans and most of Europe. So it’s not “garbage” or “obfuscation” it’s cold hard fact. If you want to debate migrants and immigration lets have a sensible debate, but again, the plight of Syrian refugees is irrelevant.
So to reiterate, I’m not obfuscating, I’m simply telling you before we can have a sensible debate on immigration (or refugees for that matter) you need to stop lumping all of them together and recognise the varying underlying causes. I'm happy to move this on by having that debate but lets make the appropriate distinctions.
Another fine piece of obfuscation:-
Nobody knows the exact figures, but we do know that millions of pounds are transferred to the EU every week - this fact has never been disputed, the debates always end up in petty squabbles over the exact amount, how much we get back as a rebate etc, but these things don't make much difference, the fact is that millions of pounds that now leave our country every week will stay in this country if we vote to leave.
The petty squabbles over exactly how much are of the order of about £200m a week, so not exactly insignificant. The main problem is though, that you have simplified the fee we are paying into a simple cash equation, i.e. we pay £xm per week for membership… and that it. It’s a bit more complicated than that. As I mentioned on a previous post, there are many unquantifiable benefits of being in the EU, the most obvious being access to the free market. That means anything any company in this country makes can be sold anywhere in the EU without paying any kind of tariffs or duties. Companies such as the Japanese car makers Nissan and Toyota build their cars in the UK, employing thousands, so that they can sell them throughout the EU without paying import tariffs. The UK is attractive to them because we are members of the EU and common market.
I could go on, but I think you will find that the common market gives our economy a large boost in terms of GDP (Gross Domestic Product) and also in terms of employment, tax receipts, etc. It has been pointed out by several economist that as little as a 0.7% drop in our GDP would result in us losing more than the cost of EU membership. We may go it alone and be successful, but it is a jump into the unknown. Therefore, it is s a risk economically and as yet, the Out campaign have failed to produce any kind of credible economic plan. It's all very well saying we'll negotiate, but for me, its too big a decision to be left down to these kind of back of a fag packet plans.
You've been watching too many TV debates, same old b*llocks every time ???
Nobody knows the exact figures, but we do know that millions of pounds are transferred to the EU every week - this fact has never been disputed, the debates always end up in petty squabbles over the exact amount, how much we get back as a rebate etc, but these things don't make much difference, the fact is that millions of pounds that now leave our country every week will stay in this country if we vote to leave.
If it makes it any easier to have something empirical to wrap your mind around, the ONS gives the estimated net UK contribution, after rebates etc as £70 billion over the next five years.
You can debate the figure until you fall over backwards foaming at the mouth, nobody knows what it is, but we do know that we will save a couple of quid by voting out.
Firstly – I haven’t watched a single debate actually. I realised early on that the politicians and media were talking utter nonsense (on both sides) and frankly, I couldn’t face sitting and watching it for fear of crushing boredom. All my opinions have come from my own research, thoughts and conversations/debates with others. My job is in engineering and I’m paid to solve problems, so I like to get to the bottom of all the facts before I make a decision. Believe it or not, I started out leaning slightly towards out, having been seduced by the left wing arguments put up by the likes of Paul Mason. I’m open minded enough that if anyone can make a strong enough argument I will happily change my mind. I’m not wedded to in or out, I just want what’s best for mine and my kid’s future. Please don't presume to second guess my decision making process.
On your claim of obfuscation, I just don’t get how you can accuse me of that in that passage at all? I’ve clearly laid out some of the reasons why I think you are wrong about the money we are sending to the EU and I can only assume you either misunderstood my point or don’t want to hear it. The cost of EU membership has been given as £350m. That figure straight away has been discredited, so it’s not an “argument”, it’s a fact. The figure is generally thought to be around £130m after the rebate and EU investment in the UK has been accounted for. So, we pay approx. £8bn per year for our membership. That membership has lots of benefits which are difficult to quantify but almost certainly add up to much more than £8bn. If Nissan and Toyota open car factories in the UK so that they can have access to the common market then they will pay corporation tax, Business rates and their employees will pay income tax into the treasury. They will also invest in local infrastructure, train staff (which may attract other firms) and use local supply networks. That’s just two firms that I am particularly familiar with, there are many others like them. In addition, being part of the common market means British firms can sell their goods without tariff to a huge number of potential customers. In my last job I saw this first hand as I went across the EU supporting our products. None of this is obfuscation, but if you still think it is, please provide some evidence to counter my point, be specific about how I am obfuscating, I am genuinely confused by this. You might even change my mind if you make a strong enough argument.
And finally, a nicely blended mix of disinformation, obfuscation, and just plain old dislike for members of the Leave campaign :-
The other thing that we know for sure if we do leave the EU is that we will not have an unelected committee of faceless American and European corporate fat cats selling off our NHS.
How naïve, if we vote out that is precisely what we will end up with. Just look at the credentials of all of those involved in the Out campaign, even "man of the people" Nigel Farage is an ex banker. If we isolate ourselves from Europe, we will be forced into an even cosier alliance with the Americans. Check out the trade agreements they have already signed with Canada and Mexico and decide for yourself what kind of deal we will get on our own with BoJo at the helm.
Whatever any future alliance with the Americans would be, we would still be in control of the future of our NHS as we can vote down any proposals to privatise it
If we stay in, and TTIP is eventually ratified, there would be no hope of keeping it as Aneurin Bevan intended.
The leaked Brussels papers show that a TTIP committee would be appointed (not elected) and there would be no guarantee that the UK would even be represented. Assuming there was a UK representative and he or she argued for keeping the NHS, if he was successful, we would then be guilty of distorting the market and our government woud be open to a legal claim amounting to billions of pounds.
As far as the NHS goes, it is quite clear that if we stay in we will eventually lose it and have to pay for private healthcare;
whereas if we vote out we will always have the opportunity to vote to keep it :police:
You're right about one thing, I don't like the Brexit team one bit, I disagree with them fundamentally on just about everything its possible to disagree on. But then that's also true of David Cameron, George Osborne and most of the rest of the in campaign. I wouldn't trust any of them with our country's future, after an In or Out vote.
We’ve already covered the NHS at the top of this post so I won't go through it again save to say, the EU referendum is NOT a referendum on the future of the NHS, it's a referendum on EU membership. TTIP hasn't been signed yet so let's all start campaigning against it.
Re TTIP: If we isolate ourselves from the EU we will simply have to look for new trade agreements with others such as America and China. What kind of agreement then do you think the Americans would offer us? A better one than they are offering the huge collective bargaining block of the 28 countries of the EU? A better deal than they have signed with Canada or Mexico? I think we need to get real and realise as part of the EU we have far more power over policy than we ever would as a poodle to either the Americans or Chinese. Currently we have a place at the table, elected representatives and a power of veto. Do you think we will ever get power of veto over policy in an agreement with China or America?
I’ve already said, I’m totally against TTIP and I’m glad so many people have now got wise to it, I’ve been following its dreaded progress for many months, but the Mainstream Media didn’t seem interested until it became a useful tool in the Brexit campaign. But now so many of us know the true nature of it, we can fight it and we can win.
I'll finish by saying this:
I've tried to clarify my position as much as possible for you. I am genuinely not setting out to obfuscate anything or provide disinformation, quite the opposite. Before I entered this debate it all seemed very one sided so I was just hoping to put across a different point of view and add some balance.
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If you have any evidence to dispute that, go ahead and post it otherwise I will assume we all agree on that
Using that logic you could assume that we all agree that the Christian's God is a three legged wombat?
You absolutely could! And that's the beauty of the world we live in. Scientology is a thing, "Jedi" is the worlds fastest growing religion and Steve Evans was once hailed as "god" on these pages and on the York Street terraces!
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"The point is that if we don't take back control of our borders and control the numbers entering our country our services will soon be at breaking point."
As I have already stated, we can't 'take control of our borders' unless we also depart the EEA. Freedom of a movement is requirement of membership of the EEA and there is no way the United Kingdom will be granted an exemption. Everyone on the Leave side seems to have forgotten about it and believe we can shut the door once we've departed the EU. This is absolutely not the case.
So unless Leave want us to also quit the EEA - which would be absolutely catastrophic for our economy - we will have no more control of our borders outside of the EU than we do now.
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"The point is that if we don't take back control of our borders and control the numbers entering our country our services will soon be at breaking point."
As I have already stated, we can't 'take control of our borders' unless we also depart the EEA. Freedom of a movement is requirement of membership of the EEA and there is no way the United Kingdom will be granted an exemption. Everyone on the Leave side seems to have forgotten about it and believe we can shut the door once we've departed the EU. This is absolutely not the case.
So unless Leave want us to also quit the EEA - which would be absolutely catastrophic for our economy - we will have no more control of our borders outside of the EU than we do now.
I am not disputing what you say.
But I believe Norway are a member of the EEA, but not a member of the EU.
They do not have an open border policy.
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Wrong, I'm afraid!
A key quote from OpenEurope:
"Norway is also outside the EU, but is a member of the European Economic Area (EEA). As such, Norway must apply the same free movement rules as EU member states, but has no vote on the rules."
To be clear on this - simply leaving the EU means we CANNOT impose border restrictions, so if the issue of immigration is the reason you are voting to leave the EU, you need to understand that further disentanglement from Europe will be necessary post-Brexit, which will take many years and may never even happen.
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A really straight forward view of possible 'out' next steps;
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CklmBTiWkAA1Is6.jpg:large)
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Immigration is one of my concerns, but I have doubts over other issues within the EU.
I worry we pay too much to be a part of this exclusive club. Germany and the UK are the only net contributors to the EU.
I object to us bailing out countries who have through their own fault got themselves in a mess.
I object to being told what to do by un-elected Eurocrats.
I object to the fact we can not send rapists, murderers and the scum of the earth back to their own country.
I object to the fact that 18% of British laws were overturned or over- ruled by European courts last year alone.
I object to Germany bullying their way.
My father RIP would turn in his grave seeing the influence Germany has now ( he fought at Normandy ).
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Just to correct the net contributor point, not to dispute your view to leave but it does grate me when I hear things like...
Germany and the UK are the only net contributors to the EU.
Net contributors in 2013 (think this is the last time we have the confirmed numbers) were;
Germany, France, Italy, UK, Netherlands, Sweden, Austria, Denmark and Finland. (Source: http://tinyurl.com/pvbpwxd)
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Immigration is one of my concerns, but I have doubts over other issues within the EU.
I worry we pay too much to be a part of this exclusive club. Germany and the UK are the only net contributors to the EU.
I object to us bailing out countries who have through their own fault got themselves in a mess.
I object to being told what to do by un-elected Eurocrats.
I object to the fact we can not send rapists, murderers and the scum of the earth back to their own country.
I object to the fact that 18% of British laws were overturned or over- ruled by European courts last year alone.
I object to Germany bullying their way.
My father RIP would turn in his grave seeing the influence Germany has now ( he fought at Normandy ).
The EU certainly isn't perfect, but the graphic Mickey Nuttells hair has posted is excellent at pointing out the position we will be in should we exit. With regards the cost of membership, we need to stop looking at is as a single unrecoverable cost and more as an investment. Each year we are investing and we get back plenty of benefits in trade that outweigh the initial cost.
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Just to correct the net contributor point, not to dispute your view to leave but it does grate me when I hear things like...
Germany and the UK are the only net contributors to the EU.
Net contributors in 2013 (think this is the last time we have the confirmed numbers) were;
Germany, France, Italy, UK, Netherlands, Sweden, Austria, Denmark and Finland. (Source: http://tinyurl.com/pvbpwxd)
Aren't Greece, Spain, Ireland technically bankrupt?
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I've absolutely no idea.
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let me try and put figures into context.
People band around figures of X million of debt this and X billion of debt that.
Did you know that one million seconds is approx 12 days and one billion seconds is approx 31 YEARS.
So when Britain were made to pay 1.4 billion to the EU in extra payment the other year, converted to seconds that would take us up to the year 2061. Frightening.
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That is a long time.
If we look at the UK population of 64 million, and say 50% are tax payers I think that 1.4 million works out at 45p each.
maths is great
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That is a long time.
If we look at the UK population of 64 million, and say 50% are tax payers I think that 1.4 million works out at 45p each.
maths is great
Sorry I meant 1.4 billion
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"The point is that if we don't take back control of our borders and control the numbers entering our country our services will soon be at breaking point."
As I have already stated, we can't 'take control of our borders' unless we also depart the EEA. Freedom of a movement is requirement of membership of the EEA and there is no way the United Kingdom will be granted an exemption. Everyone on the Leave side seems to have forgotten about it and believe we can shut the door once we've departed the EU. This is absolutely not the case.
So unless Leave want us to also quit the EEA - which would be absolutely catastrophic for our economy - we will have no more control of our borders outside of the EU than we do now.
This is interesting as the United Kingdom doesn't necessarily need an exemption, chapter 4 of the EEA Agreement specifies certain safeguard measures that would allow us to unilaterally suspend FoM for an indefinite period.
The ESM is a product of the EEA Agreement, and the EU's internal market is a product of the Treaty of Rome/Lisbon.
The rules differ. Leaving the EU means leaving the Internal Market with its Common External Tariff (which goes into the EU coffers).
We can avoid Freedom of Movement, or suspend it, while we renegotiate the EEA Agreement or negotiate a bespoke British option.
In the event of a Brexit the Norway model would be of interest because in their case FoM is limited to the private sector, and then only with a job offer. This is in the latest version of the agreement, the original version refers to movement of people rather than workers. Norway's financial contribution is more in the nature of overseas aid rather than a budget contribution.
The global prospects are far more interesting when you consider that the other 168 independent sovereign nations on this planet are all doing better economically than the EU; the EU is ahead of Antarctica, the EU is the slowest growing Economic Bloc in the world.
The vast majority of the population of the world feel no inclination or pressure to join a supranational anti-democratic kleptocracy, especially one doing so badly economically and with such serious problems. Economists in India or China would not believe that we were even considering remaining.
Last year we were told by Cameron that the Chinese visit heralded a new 'Golden era of trade' which was 'vital for our economy', and he was telling the truth for once. If we remain we will need the money for bail outs when the Eurozone implodes; both Italy and France have major economic problems, Greece will need another cash injection, and the smaller nation states are suffering badly.
The Remain side are constantly talking down our prospects outside of the EU, belittling Englanders. As the fifth largest economy in the World we should be confident and bold enough to make our own trade deals on the global market rather than be continuously held back by the EU.
The UK could become as successful as Hong Kong if trading globally, and not held back by trade deals that have to be agreed by 27 other member states every time.
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I bow to some long and knowledgeable answers/posts on this thread.
Maybe I you will have answer/opinion on the following?
1) if we vote out will that mean UKIP will disband?
2) will all the people who have set up businesses here have to go back?
3) will Staples have a lot of caravans for sale?
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"The point is that if we don't take back control of our borders and control the numbers entering our country our services will soon be at breaking point."
As I have already stated, we can't 'take control of our borders' unless we also depart the EEA. Freedom of a movement is requirement of membership of the EEA and there is no way the United Kingdom will be granted an exemption. Everyone on the Leave side seems to have forgotten about it and believe we can shut the door once we've departed the EU. This is absolutely not the case.
So unless Leave want us to also quit the EEA - which would be absolutely catastrophic for our economy - we will have no more control of our borders outside of the EU than we do now.
This is interesting as the United Kingdom doesn't necessarily need an exemption, chapter 4 of the EEA Agreement specifies certain safeguard measures that would allow us to unilaterally suspend FoM for an indefinite period.
The ESM is a product of the EEA Agreement, and the EU's internal market is a product of the Treaty of Rome/Lisbon.
The rules differ. Leaving the EU means leaving the Internal Market with its Common External Tariff (which goes into the EU coffers).
We can avoid Freedom of Movement, or suspend it, while we renegotiate the EEA Agreement or negotiate a bespoke British option.
In the event of a Brexit the Norway model would be of interest because in their case FoM is limited to the private sector, and then only with a job offer. This is in the latest version of the agreement, the original version refers to movement of people rather than workers. Norway's financial contribution is more in the nature of overseas aid rather than a budget contribution.
The global prospects are far more interesting when you consider that the other 168 independent sovereign nations on this planet are all doing better economically than the EU; the EU is ahead of Antarctica, the EU is the slowest growing Economic Bloc in the world.
The vast majority of the population of the world feel no inclination or pressure to join a supranational anti-democratic kleptocracy, especially one doing so badly economically and with such serious problems. Economists in India or China would not believe that we were even considering remaining.
Last year we were told by Cameron that the Chinese visit heralded a new 'Golden era of trade' which was 'vital for our economy', and he was telling the truth for once. If we remain we will need the money for bail outs when the Eurozone implodes; both Italy and France have major economic problems, Greece will need another cash injection, and the smaller nation states are suffering badly.
The Remain side are constantly talking down our prospects outside of the EU, belittling Englanders. As the fifth largest economy in the World we should be confident and bold enough to make our own trade deals on the global market rather than be continuously held back by the EU.
The UK could become as successful as Hong Kong if trading globally, and not held back by trade deals that have to be agreed by 27 other member states every time.
This is a very interesting post and a welcome departure from your previous style. I've had a read through the document you have cited and found the relevant articles. Can you precisely detail under which conditions we would be able to suspend freedom of movement? The articles state that any safeguarding measure is very much meant to be short term rather than "indefinite" with reviews conducted st least every 3 months. Can you explain how the indefinite suspension of FoM would be achieved? And finally, the document makes clear that any measure taken that creates an imbalance permits other states to take "proportionate rebalancing measures". Would that not allow existing states to take action against us?
It's not so much a case of talking down Britain, as pointing out that an exit vote represents a jump into the unknown and with that comes risk. The argument is - do we have more power on our own "free to negotiate without the EU interference" or as a strong player within a large trading block of sovereign nations - Ie collective bargaining power?
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As an aside that some of you may or may not be interested in, I had a chat to my Grandfather this evening. He's 103 and turns 104 this year. He was one of the last out of Dunkirk. He told me he's going to be voting in. He says that had their been an EU back in 1914 he doesn't think there would have been a WW1 or WW2. He said he felt strongly on this, as many of his friends and family lost their lives fighting for peace. He went on to say that the EU had given the European continent a common goal and solidarity. Interesting to get an opinion from someone who lived through that era, although I'm sure that others had a different opinion just like today.
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Italy is sitting on a 1.3trillion Euro debt apparently, more than the debt that triggered the credit crisis, Portugal France and Spain are not too healthy either
Economically, what Cameron and Osborne are trying to persuade us to do is like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. We need to take the nearest lifeboat, raise the Union Jack, and start rowing!
The comments by Dyson in the Independent today are very informative regarding trade after a Brexit 8)
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Italy is sitting on a 1.3trillion Euro debt apparently, more than the debt that triggered the credit crisis, Portugal France and Spain are not too healthy either
Economically, what Cameron and Osborne are trying to persuade us to do is like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. We need to take the nearest lifeboat, raise the Union Jack, and start rowing!
The comments by Dyson in the Independent today are very informative regarding trade after a Brexit 8)
!.3 trillion debt, how many years in seconds is that? The mind boggles :o :o :o
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Italy is sitting on a 1.3trillion Euro debt apparently, more than the debt that triggered the credit crisis, Portugal France and Spain are not too healthy either
Economically, what Cameron and Osborne are trying to persuade us to do is like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. We need to take the nearest lifeboat, raise the Union Jack, and start rowing!
The comments by Dyson in the Independent today are very informative regarding trade after a Brexit 8)
U.K. Debt is currently estimated at 1.64 trillion. One of the big problems seems to me to be the obsession with Austerity. It's a flawed strategy and sucks demand out of the market me. That was the case during the Great Depression and it has been the case for the past 6 years too. The huge rises in inequality brought about by free market economics have also contributed to subdued demand in my opinion too. Mark Blyth and Paul Krugman have both written good books on these subjects.
Mark Blyth made this short simple video which does a great job of putting the whole argument in a nutshell.
https://youtu.be/go2bVGi0ReE
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very good.
I am very pleased we are all in it TOGETHER.
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Speaking to someone earlier who doesn't live too far from Staples.
He said there was 400 caravans housing around 1400 each paying £55 per week rent.
(I am prepared to be corrected on this as I'm directly quoting what I was told)
They pay their taxes and nic but at the end of the year return home and claim tax back!
And of course and child benefits are paid to families abroad.
It's madness
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Dyson and Joe Bamford say out
Branson and Sugar say in.
All fairly respected business men.
But if they can't agree how are we to make a judgement?
To me it comes down to if you want to be in charge of your own destiny.....
I'll go with vacuum cleaners and jcb
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Another good weekend for brexit . Dodgy Dave busy again with another strategy to entice the stay at homes to rush to the polling stations to vote Stay !!
Sorry Dave trying to scare and bully the OAPs with potential pension cuts will backfire like most your ill conceived plots .
With your and Geo,s record on U turns it is more likely to be cut if you manage to carry on as PM.
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As an engineer myself, it's very hard not to respect Mr Dyson for his intellect and business acumen. However, it's worth remembering just how committed he was to the U.K. economy when he moved production of his vacuum cleaners to the far east in order to save costs and made 800 British workers redundant in the process. It's a well established fact that many of the Brexiters have trumpeted the possibility of removing certain workers protections provided by the EU. Perhaps that is what is attractive to manufacturers like Dyson and JCB?
If you leave the UK in the hands of a gang of hard right free market ideologues like those leading the Brexit campaign, then results will be fairly predictable. They believe we can be more competitive on the world stage by making the workforce "more flexible". In lay mans terms that means it's easier to exploit you, in terms of wages/work hours/holidays and easier to fire you. You only need to do some very basic research on the main protagonists of the out campaign to find out their political motivations.
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Speaking to someone earlier who doesn't live too far from Staples.
He said there was 400 caravans housing around 1400 each paying £55 per week rent.
(I am prepared to be corrected on this as I'm directly quoting what I was told)
They pay their taxes and nic but at the end of the year return home and claim tax back!
And of course and child benefits are paid to families abroad.
It's madness
This is an interesting claim, but you are going to having to back up some of the claims with some hard facts otherwise it is simply conjecture.
Let's say we take the 400 caravans and 1400 people as fact, how many immigrants are living legitimately in actual properties in Boston? I'd guess a lot more than 1400. In addition, how do you know they are claiming their tax back and can you post some evidence of that? We have to be very careful in this debate to make decision based on actual facts rather than myths. And there is an awful lot of myth masquerading as fact out there at the moment.
One question I'd like to see answered re immigration by Brexit supporters here or on the national scene is this. If we are to believe that we will "regain control of our borders" and reduce immigration down to the "tens of thousands", why is it that we are currently seeing higher immigration from OUTSIDE the EU than from inside? The figures are as follows:
Annual Net Migration Year ending December 2015
From EU: 184,000
From outside EU: 188,000
And another question the figures throw up is, if we are being over run by migrants which the country doesn't need, why haven't we "taken control of our borders" and completely stopped the flow of non EU migrants?
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very good.
I am very pleased we are all in it TOGETHER.
And I suppose you are blaming the EU for that rather than the Tory government we have had in power throughout the last 6 years? It is a great act of self delusion if you believe that after 6 years of divesting in vital services, you are surprised when those services then fall apart and are no longer fit for purpose. And it is an even greater feat of self delusion if you can then blame that on the EU/immigration and believe that the very people who perpetrated these policies are the ones who are now going to save you. WAKE UP!
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Another good weekend for brexit . Dodgy Dave busy again with another strategy to entice the stay at homes to rush to the polling stations to vote Stay !!
Sorry Dave trying to scare and bully the OAPs with potential pension cuts will backfire like most your ill conceived plots .
With your and Geo,s record on U turns it is more likely to be cut if you manage to carry on as PM.
Absolutely. If remain are to stand any chance now, then Dave needs to take a back seat. The only silver lining is that the general population are now beginning to see what we on the left have known all along.
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Hi there Max Ross :)
I did say I stand to be corrected.
You have questioned me (fair enough ) but haven't corrected me.
The Staples example is a snapshot really.
They have a largely immigrant based workforce based in their own "village" a win win for them.
We are at present allowing enough people in per year to repopulate a city the size of Newcastle.
Will our infrastructure accommodate this?
The Quadrant development was being objected to on similar arguments. 500 new homes ...poss got a chance but 1000's? ???
There is a lot of talk of whether Turkey will enter...up to a point they already have. Weren't they given eu passports in exchange for taking in "refugees"?
I'm not Dr Dolittle but on immigration it's worth speaking to a red squirrel
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A copy and paste statement.
If any or all are wrong please correct.
--------------------------------------------------------------
You guys want some facts?........free of all the b##lshit? These are true, actual, no nonsense, straight up facts.
So you think the EU is good for British jobs then....? 😡
"OK,.. here's a short list of financial and industrial FUBARs from the EU.......
Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.
I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.
Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't care."
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Hi there Max Ross :)
I did say I stand to be corrected.
You have questioned me (fair enough ) but haven't corrected me.
The Staples example is a snapshot really.
They have a largely immigrant based workforce based in their own "village" a win win for them.
We are at present allowing enough people in per year to repopulate a city the size of Newcastle.
Will our infrastructure accommodate this?
The Quadrant development was being objected to on similar arguments. 500 new homes ...poss got a chance but 1000's? ???
There is a lot of talk of whether Turkey will enter...up to a point they already have. Weren't they given eu passports in exchange for taking in "refugees"?
I'm not Dr Dolittle but on immigration it's worth speaking to a red squirrel
Hi there Howmanynames2pick :)
The burden is not on me to disprove your conjecture, but on you to provide proof to back it up. Until you can provide some facts to back up the claim it will remain just that, a claim. Once we've established the facts, then we can debate the rights or wrongs of that particular case.
You do bring up some other interesting points. "Is our infrastructure strong enough to sustain this?". No, of course it's not, that's why it makes absolutely no sense at all to have been making huge cuts to public services across the board for the past 6 years. The state we find ourselves in is more to do with chronic underinvestment by a tory government than it is to do with immigration. Immigration will without doubt exacerbate that issue but why the free pass for Austerity? The warnings were loud and clear at the time but they ploughed on regardless. Many of you here talk about being able to hold our own sovereign government to account for poor decisions, yet many of you seem reluctant to do so.
You can argue the rights and wrongs of immigration but the economic arguments are generally pretty strong. We live in an a country with an ageing population. That's a well known fact. It's also well understood that pensions and care for our elderly is paid for via tax receipts from the working population. If you have an increasing demographic of elderly people those costs are going to increase and you therefore need to increase the number of tax payers. One of the quickest and easiest ways to do that is to increase immigration of working aged individuals. I don't have the figures to hand, but there are plenty of them out there that show that economically at least, immigrants bring in more than they take out. Socially there is a cost and that can be seen acutely in places like Boston. Those social divisions are brought into even sharper focus when we have underinvestment in public services.
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A copy and paste statement.
If any or all are wrong please correct.
--------------------------------------------------------------
You guys want some facts?........free of all the b##lshit? These are true, actual, no nonsense, straight up facts.
So you think the EU is good for British jobs then....? 😡
"OK,.. here's a short list of financial and industrial FUBARs from the EU.......
Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.
I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.
Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't care."
Firstly, this doesn't start well with the usual emotional claptrap attached and no sources provided for any of the claims. It also ends by informing me that if I don't agree, then I "don't care". I'd like to point out though, a fact is generally a piece of information backed up by evidence, not some angry guy bashing his keyboard shouting "You guys want some facts?........free of all the b##lshit? These are true, actual, no nonsense, straight up facts". I've often gone to the extent of going through every single claim on a case by case basis and found many claims to be found wanting, on this occasion, I can't really be arsed right now. I've dropped in a few examples where the writer might have got his "facts" muddled though...
A lot of the "facts" thrown in there are decisions made by the U.K. government such as the Hinckley Point power station, which was widely seen as a sweetener deal Osborne did with the Chinese. In fact the general trend in Europe is to get rid of nuclear energy entirely.
The privatisation of our bus services, airports and tendering them to foreign owners was all carried out by our own government. As a great example of that, parts of our rail network are owned by state owned transport providers from the likes of Germany, France and Italy.
If you read carefully through and analyse each claim it is quickly apparent that the writer has muddled EU and UK policy quite badly. For example, how did the EU convince David Cameron to purchase a German made bus rather than a British one??
There's always been a rail plant at Derby, manufacturing trains, it was sold off to Bombardier in 1989 by the Tory's and we stopped making our own trains as part of a process of privatisations. It's nothing to do with the EU.
To me, this is the last kind of poorly researched nonsense that you should be looking at if you want to get out of the EU. There are strong arguments for Out, this in it's present format, isn't one of them.
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Interesting and erudite answers there Maxross..
This is why making a balanced decision is so difficult.
There are things we think we know and some we presume.
The things I believe I know are
We have 3 huge buildings in Brussels (parliament, court and commission)
Some elected some not making rules on our behalf
I voted to go into a common market of 7 or 9 nations.
For the most part we were pretty much on par wealth wise. Now we are subsidising some nations.
We now have nations that are bankrupt....
I did not envisage the leviathan it has become.
I did not foresee entering effectively a Federal State of Europe.
Most of manufacturing has now gone....I am not saying this is all the EU fault. Some lays at misgovernment, mismanagement and inflexible unions.
We pay out more than we get back?
Can that be right?
Also we only get back what they agree to give us!
It's madness.
We all applauded when USSR broke up and now we are being led down a United States of Europe
We must take control of our laws etc.
(I'm self employed and committees and petty rules grind my gears :) )
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Interesting and erudite answers there Maxross..
This is why making a balanced decision is so difficult.
There are things we think we know and some we presume.
The things I believe I know are
We have 3 huge buildings in Brussels (parliament, court and commission)
Some elected some not making rules on our behalf
I voted to go into a common market of 7 or 9 nations.
For the most part we were pretty much on par wealth wise. Now we are subsidising some nations.
We now have nations that are bankrupt....
I did not envisage the leviathan it has become.
I did not foresee entering effectively a Federal State of Europe.
Most of manufacturing has now gone....I am not saying this is all the EU fault. Some lays at misgovernment, mismanagement and inflexible unions.
We pay out more than we get back?
Can that be right?
Also we only get back what they agree to give us!
It's madness.
We all applauded when USSR broke up and now we are being led down a United States of Europe
We must take control of our laws etc.
(I'm self employed and committees and petty rules grind my gears :) )
Absolutely it's a tough decision. That's why I think we have to make a determined effort to educate ourselves and not simply believe all we are told by Politicians, the Press and chain mail style posts on Facebook. I'm personally feeling no hostility to anyone on here, I'm enjoying hearing your views and learning. I think most U.K. citizens are hard working individuals like you and me who just want the best for themselves and their family's. There is a bewildering amount of information being thrown at people and many simply don't know what to think.
What we all need to remember though is that there are an awful lot of vested interests out there on both sides who don't necessarily have our best interests at heart. That's why it's vital to consume our news from a wide variety of sources and try to stick to what we know to be fact. It becomes much easier to discern what is fact and fiction and who is trying to mislead us when we have a decent understanding of the facts. That doesn't even just apply to the EU referendum, it's just good practice.
The EU is not perfect, not by a long way and Democracy is it's Achilles heal. We live in a different world to the one we did 50 years ago though and we have to accept that the world is a smaller place thanks to technology, travel etc and integration and trade between nations is a fact of life. We cannot simply isolate ourselves and bury our heads in the sand pretending it's not happening. Does that mean we accept the lack of democracy at the heart of the EU? Absolutely not, I believe in order to make an integrated Europe a better place we have to stay and fight and mould it into what we want it to be. I hear a lot about defeatism, but to me its defeatist to say as big a player as the UK cannot force change as part of the EU. Of course we can. Defeatism for me is if we give up.
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As mentioned by most voters the advice given by "experts" is contradictory .
Examining what the politicians tell us is easier .
For starters we know Dave,s "no ifs , no buts, pledge on immigration is in tatters .
Dave after a recent spell of ignoring the subject , but it back on his agenda in a recent interview .
When mentioning the various benefit cuts to immigrants he described them for what they are , PROPOSIALS .
Now the reason some Tory MP,s are shy of backing Cameron is because they know after 5years of DWP so called benefit reforms overseen by the government and IDS the system created is in utter chaos causing hardship to the vulnerable . They fear that the DWP would not be fit to deliver further complex changes .
More tellingly many fear these Proposals will not be implemented as we fear Dave,s will be stitched up by the EU .
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A heated debate without getting heated ;)
Dyson and Joe Bamford say out
Sugar and Branson say in
Half of them are wrong......
The whole idea of the EU is a good one...however it's got out of hand.
One the "big houses" packs up and travels to Strasbourg once a month for a vote...waste of time and money (the Paxo tv show)
As you rightly say vested interests are a major stumbling block.
I've tried to work out the ones with guys mentioned earlier....not plainly evident
Trying to change from within is virtually impossible.
Vested interests and corruption being major stumbling blocks.
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It strikes me that Brexiteers are willfully ignorant to the options that face us following a Leave vote. If we want to control migration - rightly or wrongly probably the number one concern of Leave votes - we will not have anything like access to the single market on the terms we do now. That would be somewhere between very bad and catastrophic for the economy. It'll mean something between tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of jobs being lost. Just look at what has happened to indicators of business confidence and investment in 2016 at the mere possibility of an exit.
Who will it be who loses their jobs? It certainly won't be people like Boris Johnson and Michael Gove - recessions don't hit Westminster. Could that be why they're so carefree about the prospect of exit? Could it also be one of the reasons why pensioners - whose incomes are not linked to economic performance in the way those of working age people are - are more prone to voting for leave?
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Remain are resorting to ever more desperate tactics, wheeling out Gordon Brown hot on the heels of Blair and Major.
They keep banging on about tackling climate change together in the EU but far from producing cheap electricity, the EU has done the opposite with some of the highest costs worldwide as they are relying on expensive renewables.
Even the EU’s former commissioner for industry, Antonio Tajani has said that EU energy prices are creating an industrial massacre in industries, such as aluminium and steel. Some of the large energy intensive industries have moved away from the EU to countries with cheaper energy prices, but unfortunately these countries have far less stringent emission regulations so the net global effect is to actually increase emissions...its all OK though because Remainians are only concerned with the EU, which they think exists in its own private ecosystem :dan
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Migration Watch are saying that, if we stay in the EU, immigration to the UK is likely to stay at around 250 000 a year for the next 20 years, not sure if they've included the Turkish contingent that Cameron appears to be working so hard for.
Obviously there is no empirical evidence to base any of this on, its only Migration Watch after all and they are probably funded by the Brexiteers :dan
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Good to see Her Majesty the Queen enjoying her birthday celebrations yesterday with the good old Union Jack everywhere.
No sign of the blue flag with the gold stars, if there were any there I expect she had them all removed. :police:
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On access to the single market - there are certain safeguards built into the EEA Agreement which make it clear that, in the event of a Brexit, we can negotiate a bespoke deal for the UK during the two years it takes to withdraw from the EU. There are transitional protocols already in place in the Agreement for FoM (Switzerland and Liechtenstein), and there is no reason why the UK cannot negotiate its own transitional protocols invoking some of the existing safeguards.
The EU countries are not just going to stop trading with us on the 24th if we vote for a Brexit. They are already trading with many countries outside of the EEA and we will join that list.
The balance of trade with the EU is in our favour to the tune of around 60 billion, so any tariffs that might apply will not adversely affect trade. According to some economists we would introduce similar tariffs on EU imports to this country, trade being a two way deal 8)
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On access to the single market - there are certain safeguards built into the EEA Agreement which make it clear that, in the event of a Brexit, we can negotiate a bespoke deal for the UK during the two years it takes to withdraw from the EU. There are transitional protocols already in place in the Agreement for FoM (Switzerland and Liechtenstein), and there is no reason why the UK cannot negotiate its own transitional protocols invoking some of the existing safeguards.
The EU countries are not just going to stop trading with us on the 24th if we vote for a Brexit. They are already trading with many countries outside of the EEA and we will join that list.
The balance of trade with the EU is in our favour to the tune of around 60 billion, so any tariffs that might apply will not adversely affect trade. According to some economists we would introduce similar tariffs on EU imports to this country, trade being a two way deal 8)
But this is simply not the correct way of looking at it. Yes, we import a bit more form the rest of the EU than we export to it - so the absolute figures are roughly in balance. But our GDP is (relatively) small compared to the rest of the EU summed together, ergo this trade is a much higher proportion of - and more important to - our national income than that of the EU.
This is explained here. (http://www.niesr.ac.uk/blog/after-brexit-how-important-would-uk-trade-be-eu#.V18bT7srJpi)
Incidentally, being able to impose tariffs ourselves is not a good thing - it would just make goods more expensive here.
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Its simply not the way someone who wishes to remain in the EU would look at it, but it is the way it looks if you wish to leave and you read the EEA Agreement.
There are currently 49 separate Protocols covering everything from transitional periods in FoM, safeguard mechanisms, abolition of technical barriers, and the development of cooperation etc...the EEA is open to negotiation, and with the UK being the fifth largest economy in the world we are in a strong position to negotiate.
We import far more than we export, and that further strengthens the UK's position.
Just as the obvious example, if Germany and France stopped selling cars in the UK it would cause serious problems to their economies, so that's not going to happen no matter what Cameron and Osborne would have us believe.
The EU countries are concerned about a possible Brexit but, if it were to happen, they would be even more concerned about losing the UK market completely.
We need to start trading globally rather than just with the EU. Cameron stated that the Chinese visit last year heralded a new golden era of trade that was vital for our economy. If the EU was working so well the Chinese deal wouldn't be quite so 'vital' but the only country with a slower economic growth rate is Antarctica, the Eurozone is about to implode, and the EU just has no way of dealing with the migrant crisis.
Cameron's attempt to renegotiate our position was a complete farce, all he got was the square root of zero. The EU doesn't do change, your local MEP will confirm that :blank:
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Its simply not the way someone who wishes to remain in the EU would look at it, but it is the way it looks if you wish to leave and you read the EEA Agreement.
There are currently 49 separate Protocols covering everything from transitional periods in FoM, safeguard mechanisms, abolition of technical barriers, and the development of cooperation etc...the EEA is open to negotiation, and with the UK being the fifth largest economy in the world we are in a strong position to negotiate.
We import far more than we export, and that further strengthens the UK's position.
Just as the obvious example, if Germany and France stopped selling cars in the UK it would cause serious problems to their economies, so that's not going to happen no matter what Cameron and Osborne would have us believe.
The EU countries are concerned about a possible Brexit but, if it were to happen, they would be even more concerned about losing the UK market completely.
We need to start trading globally rather than just with the EU. Cameron stated that the Chinese visit last year heralded a new golden era of trade that was vital for our economy. If the EU was working so well the Chinese deal wouldn't be quite so 'vital' but the only country with a slower economic growth rate is Antarctica, the Eurozone is about to implode, and the EU just has no way of dealing with the migrant crisis.
Cameron's attempt to renegotiate our position was a complete farce, all he got was the square root of zero. The EU doesn't do change, your local MEP will confirm that :blank:
No, it wouldn't. Exports to the UK are 7% of German's total and less than that for France. Only for those superpowers Ireland and Cyprus are we more than 10% of total exports. The EU is over 40% of our exports.
The correct measure is the relative importance of that trade to your economy, not the level of it; for the same reason that if I win £1,000 it helps me a lot more than it would Richard Branson.
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So we have just 9 days before we vote to remain part of Germany.
(two world wars & Germany failed, this time it's takeover by stealth).
8) 8)
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How exactly are Germany executing a "takeover by stealth" within the constraints of a democratic EU Parliament (and for all the bluster about 'unelected' bureaucrats, the EU IS democratic)?
If Germany is economically strong, it's because it has done pretty much the polar opposite of us over the last 30 years. And if you think leaving the EU is going suddenly restore British industry to where it was sixty years ago, you're delusional. The Tories despise the working class - always have done, always will - and the very people now urging Brexit are the very people who can't wait to get their hands on what's left and sell it all off, along with the NHS, the BBC and whatever else they can lay their hands on before people realise they've been conned.
If course, they're setting themselves up for an ugly fall, as when Brexit fails to bring about the improvements they're claiming it will, and indeed makes things even worse, there's going to be all kinds of ugly bother - but by then their ideologically-driven violence against the fabric of British public life will have caused irreversible damage.
And Scotland will have left the Union and be back in the EU, meaning we'll have an actual border between England and Scotland.
And migration will still be high, because our economy requires it.
But public spending will have been axed even further as the 'new' Tory government imposes further cuts, so the queues at our local hospitals will be even worse - conveniently setting up the dismantling of a health service the leading Brexit advocates loathe.
Who do we blame then?
I hope we will remain and reform the EU from within. But I am almost resigned to the fact that we are heading for Brexit. It's almost futile trying to convince people to change their mind by now - the damage has been done by successive governments failing to invest properly in areas like Boston hit hardest by increased pressure on services, and also by the dispiriting willingness of pro-EU people to dismiss the concerns of people in places like Boston as the bigoted patter of small-town racists.
What a mess.
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A heated debate without getting heated ;)
Dyson and Joe Bamford say out
Sugar and Branson say in
Half of them are wrong......
The whole idea of the EU is a good one...however it's got out of hand.
One the "big houses" packs up and travels to Strasbourg once a month for a vote...waste of time and money (the Paxo tv show)
As you rightly say vested interests are a major stumbling block.
I've tried to work out the ones with guys mentioned earlier....not plainly evident
Trying to change from within is virtually impossible.
Vested interests and corruption being major stumbling blocks.
We should commend and thank A K and Maxross for the time consuming research on this subject and their lengthy evidence submitted on this thread . Sadly from these submissions most of us are even more confused .
However this guy Howmanynames keeps posting is own off the cuff observations and not using so called "facts " given by "independent " bodies .
How ironic then that this particular post is the only one that has inspired me to decide which way to vote .
Dyson ? Backed Lincolnshire and its economy by investing £millions in the county .
Sugar ? Surely made a big contribution to Boston becoming the obesity capital of England, and
rise in diabetes . :)
Branston ? A man known for a pickle :), something we can identify Dodgy Dave and hopeless Ossy with .
A clean sweep for Dyson and the OUT VOTE .
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Not seen any JCB's in Wyberton yet .....
Seeing more and more Beeswax though across the county
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The pressure on the Remain campaign is showing, as they crank up Project Fear to new levels of scaremongering, Juncker gets drunker, and George Osborne is resorting to finger-in-the-air, think-of-a-number tactics and threatening us with an emergency budget if we vote to leave :o
Sorry George, you should have got that one in earlier, nobody believes anything they hear when they see that your lips are moving now :dan
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Rolls Royce have joined in with the Fear Project today, saying that the threat of a Brexit is making them consider relocating their new production facility elsewhere.
They forget to mention that the company is already struggling and has been for several years, with 5 profit warnings in the last 2 years - its convenient to blame it all on Brexit though and not the EU trade restrictions and regulations that hold existing businesses back on the Global market and seriously restrict start-up companies :police:
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Just an aside to in out debate.
Do you think the trouble in the Euros and anti English feeling will work in leaves favour?
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Just an aside to in out debate.
Do you think the trouble in the Euros and anti English feeling will work in leaves favour?
May win leaves a few vote , but at the moment Dave & Osborne still appear to be LEAVES best vote winners .
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A heated debate without getting heated ;)
Dyson and Joe Bamford say out
Sugar and Branson say in
Half of them are wrong......
The whole idea of the EU is a good one...however it's got out of hand.
One the "big houses" packs up and travels to Strasbourg once a month for a vote...waste of time and money (the Paxo tv show)
As you rightly say vested interests are a major stumbling block.
I've tried to work out the ones with guys mentioned earlier....not plainly evident
Trying to change from within is virtually impossible.
Vested interests and corruption being major stumbling blocks.
We should commend and thank A K and Maxross for the time consuming research on this subject and their lengthy evidence submitted on this thread . Sadly from these submissions most of us are even more confused .
However this guy Howmanynames keeps posting is own off the cuff observations and not using so called "facts " given by "independent " bodies .
How ironic then that this particular post is the only one that has inspired me to decide which way to vote .
Dyson ? Backed Lincolnshire and its economy by investing £millions in the county .
Sugar ? Surely made a big contribution to Boston becoming the obesity capital of England, and
rise in diabetes . :)
Branston ? A man known for a pickle :), something we can identify Dodgy Dave and hopeless Ossy with .
A clean sweep for Dyson and the OUT VOTE .
I take it you are aware that Dyson wants to remain in the common market and he also wants to keep freedom of movement? He also made 900 U.K. workers redundant in order to save costs. He's also another flip/flop as it wasn't so long ago that he was saying it would be a disaster for U.K. business if we didn't join the Euro. I'm not sure I would base my decision based on this guy's opinion if I'm honest.
His biggest investment in Lincolnshire so far is to buy lots of farm land, I've no problem with that but I'm not sure it can be demonstrated that has much benefit on the county in general.
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As mentioned by most voters the advice given by "experts" is contradictory .
Examining what the politicians tell us is easier .
For starters we know Dave,s "no ifs , no buts, pledge on immigration is in tatters .
Dave after a recent spell of ignoring the subject , but it back on his agenda in a recent interview .
When mentioning the various benefit cuts to immigrants he described them for what they are , PROPOSIALS .
Now the reason some Tory MP,s are shy of backing Cameron is because they know after 5years of DWP so called benefit reforms overseen by the government and IDS the system created is in utter chaos causing hardship to the vulnerable . They fear that the DWP would not be fit to deliver further complex changes .
More tellingly many fear these Proposals will not be implemented as we fear Dave,s will be stitched up by the EU .
Firstly, if an expert is offering "advice" run a mile, he's probably a snake oil salesman! What you are interested in is information, a good expert will provide you with accurate information and let you make your own mind up. Most of the information provided by experts that is out there isn't all that contradictory at all, most strongly supports "in". Don't take my word for it though, go out and have a look for yourself.
If you are going to politicians for information you are going to, for want of a better term, have your pants pulled down. These guys are experts in twisting information to suit their agenda. I usually follow the news bulletins, analysis shows like Newsnight and debates like Question Time fairly closely. However, I have avoided all like the plague in recent weeks because frankly, they are all full of s***. I haven't watched a single debate and I don't intend to either.
I'm not saying you shouldn't pay attention to them at all, some of it can be quite interesting. What we are seeing in this debate at the moment is a split between two groups of elites. Looking at who has come out on each side of the debate is quite interesting. One thing that should become quickly obvious is that "out" is very much dominated by the ideological right wing. You can see that from the politicians involved and you can see that from the newspapers which are backing them. If you are voting out to reduce immigration, stop the NHS being privatised, gain greater democracy, reduce the power of big corporations etc then you are going to find yourself sorely disappointed after Brexit, as all these policies are very much consistent with free market economics
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One question which an answer from the in or outers would be welcome .
With the EU overwhelmingly seeming desperate for us to stay in, what was the hapless Cameron doing coming away with such a P*ss poor deal ?
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One question which an answer from the in or outers would be welcome .
With the EU overwhelmingly seeming desperate for us to stay in, what was the hapless Cameron doing coming away with such a P*ss poor deal ?
I totally agree. It's essentially down to the fact, in my opinion, that Cameron is one of the most incompetent prime ministers we've had in living memory. He went out to renegotiate for a deal to appease his back benchers, rather than improve the EU or the U.K.'s position within it. He didn't even succeed in what he set out to do. Essentially he played a weak hand incredibly poorly.
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One question which an answer from the in or outers would be welcome .
With the EU overwhelmingly seeming desperate for us to stay in, what was the hapless Cameron doing coming away with such a P*ss poor deal ?
I totally agree. It's essentially down to the fact, in my opinion, that Cameron is one of the most incompetent prime ministers we've had in living memory. He went out to renegotiate for a deal to appease his back benchers, rather than improve the EU or the U.K.'s position within it. He didn't even succeed in what he set out to do. Essentially he played a weak hand incredibly poorly.
I totally agree with your response , many remain votes will be lost because many genuinely fears that a remain vote will see Cameron (and us) taken to the cleaners .
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Remain are resorting to ever more desperate tactics, wheeling out Gordon Brown hot on the heels of Blair and Major.
They keep banging on about tackling climate change together in the EU but far from producing cheap electricity, the EU has done the opposite with some of the highest costs worldwide as they are relying on expensive renewables.
Even the EU’s former commissioner for industry, Antonio Tajani has said that EU energy prices are creating an industrial massacre in industries, such as aluminium and steel. Some of the large energy intensive industries have moved away from the EU to countries with cheaper energy prices, but unfortunately these countries have far less stringent emission regulations so the net global effect is to actually increase emissions...its all OK though because Remainians are only concerned with the EU, which they think exists in its own private ecosystem :dan
You've touched on an interesting point here, I see from your previous post's earlier in the thread that you don't have much time for climate change or renewables. I think it's fair to say that the overwhelming scientific consensus is that climate change is real and that we are contributing to it through the burning of fossil fuels. You've also got to consider air quality which has well established effects on health. I worked in this field for a while and saw the science, it was fairly compelling. The final thing to consider is that fossil fuels only have a limited availability and also force us to rely on unstable regions such as the middle east. Wars in these regions to gain control over these resources have led to many of the unsustainable refugee crises we are now seeing unfolding.
Renewables are a emerging technology and absolutely something that we should be trying to nurture and develop. This argument kind of goes absolutely to the heart of what is wrong with our current economic structures. The prevailing economic theory for at least the last 30 years goes that "greed is good" and that is the founding principle of everything. This leads to a perverse set of incentives for business not to invest in what is best for society, but what is best for profit. I don't want to overstate this, but left unchecked, this will unquestionably lead to the end of the human race eventually.
That's why I applaud the EU taking a lead on this and creating regulations which try to compel the use of renewables. It has led to huge investment and research in this field and we are slowly starting to see some technologies which can provide sustainable power, theoretically forever. The great thing for Europe, is that by taking the lead, we/they will lead the world in this technology and be able to sell it all over the world. I'm not sure we should be throwing our lot in with those who would rather make a quick buck than provide energy stability for generations to come.
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One question which an answer from the in or outers would be welcome .
With the EU overwhelmingly seeming desperate for us to stay in, what was the hapless Cameron doing coming away with such a P*ss poor deal ?
I totally agree. It's essentially down to the fact, in my opinion, that Cameron is one of the most incompetent prime ministers we've had in living memory. He went out to renegotiate for a deal to appease his back benchers, rather than improve the EU or the U.K.'s position within it. He didn't even succeed in what he set out to do. Essentially he played a weak hand incredibly poorly.
Agreed. I also think on top of this that he felt relatively complacent and had no idea how much of an appetite there was in the rest of the country for Brexit (and however much I wish to remain, it's certainly been an eye-opener seeing just how many people have been readily persuaded by the leave arguments). So he probably didn't realise just how important that re-negotiation actually was, and therefore didn't fight for the best deal. Certainly, even remainers were disappointed by it.
My guess is now that Cameron is bitterly regretting even holding this referendum in the first place. It is highly unlikely he will remain as PM should the vote go against him, and the fall-out is going to be enormous. There's certainly a whiff of defeatism around the remain camp now.
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Seen the "highlights" of todays PMQs , whatever the outcome on June 23rd ,
GOD HELP US .
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One question which an answer from the in or outers would be welcome .
With the EU overwhelmingly seeming desperate for us to stay in, what was the hapless Cameron doing coming away with such a P*ss poor deal ?
I totally agree. It's essentially down to the fact, in my opinion, that Cameron is one of the most incompetent prime ministers we've had in living memory. He went out to renegotiate for a deal to appease his back benchers, rather than improve the EU or the U.K.'s position within it. He didn't even succeed in what he set out to do. Essentially he played a weak hand incredibly poorly.
I totally agree with your response , many remain votes will be lost because many genuinely fears that a remain vote will see Cameron (and us) taken to the cleaners .
It's a strange paradox though, that if you say that a country like the U.K. will be worse off trying to negotiate it's own deals in the world you are accused of "talking down Great Britain". Whereas if you suggest that Britain, as one of the EU's big three should be able to action change from within people say "nobody listens to us". We have a lot more power within Europe than we think and if by some miracle the country votes remain, we should start using to it make positive reform within the EU. I'm sick of seeing the whole debate and policy dictated by the squabbles of the Tory party.
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One question which an answer from the in or outers would be welcome .
With the EU overwhelmingly seeming desperate for us to stay in, what was the hapless Cameron doing coming away with such a P*ss poor deal ?
I totally agree. It's essentially down to the fact, in my opinion, that Cameron is one of the most incompetent prime ministers we've had in living memory. He went out to renegotiate for a deal to appease his back benchers, rather than improve the EU or the U.K.'s position within it. He didn't even succeed in what he set out to do. Essentially he played a weak hand incredibly poorly.
Agreed. I also think on top of this that he felt relatively complacent and had no idea how much of an appetite there was in the rest of the country for Brexit (and however much I wish to remain, it's certainly been an eye-opener seeing just how many people have been readily persuaded by the leave arguments). So he probably didn't realise just how important that re-negotiation actually was, and therefore didn't fight for the best deal. Certainly, even remainers were disappointed by it.
My guess is now that Cameron is bitterly regretting even holding this referendum in the first place. It is highly unlikely he will remain as PM should the vote go against him, and the fall-out is going to be enormous. There's certainly a whiff of defeatism around the remain camp now.
Yeah I totally agree. I think he saw the referendum as something he could comfortably win and so put it in their manifesto as a tactical attempt to win over a few of the UKIPers. Clearly it's spectacularly backfired in his face as the signs are pretty ominous now for remain. I can't see how he can carry on as PM if Remain win either though, his leadership has been badly compromised by the campaign.
It's interesting as I did hear the other day that the Tory Remain insiders had said that the big lesson the leadership had learned during the Scottish In/Out campaign was that project fear worked. I thought that was a strange reading of the situation since it was a much closer result than anticipated and that the Scot's voters brutally punished Labour for being involved at the GE. Personally I think it's fairly clear that project fear was counter productive in Scotland and has been counter productive in the EU Referendum.
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Very much along the lines of the 'don't believe a word of it' is this from Boris - whichever way the wind blows!
https://t.co/s08o9nTl8s
In short he is out for his own personal gain (shot at being PM) so the guy is a complete bandwagon jumper. With Gove just in behind to pick up the scraps.
I absolutely detest how politicians and business leaders alike are playing so fast and loose with the economy and the faith voters have in democracy to either climb the greasy pole or get headlines. Sadly not surprised by it though.
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One question which an answer from the in or outers would be welcome .
With the EU overwhelmingly seeming desperate for us to stay in, what was the hapless Cameron doing coming away with such a P*ss poor deal ?
I totally agree. It's essentially down to the fact, in my opinion, that Cameron is one of the most incompetent prime ministers we've had in living memory. He went out to renegotiate for a deal to appease his back benchers, rather than improve the EU or the U.K.'s position within it. He didn't even succeed in what he set out to do. Essentially he played a weak hand incredibly poorly.
Agreed. I also think on top of this that he felt relatively complacent and had no idea how much of an appetite there was in the rest of the country for Brexit (and however much I wish to remain, it's certainly been an eye-opener seeing just how many people have been readily persuaded by the leave arguments). So he probably didn't realise just how important that re-negotiation actually was, and therefore didn't fight for the best deal. Certainly, even remainers were disappointed by it.
My guess is now that Cameron is bitterly regretting even holding this referendum in the first place. It is highly unlikely he will remain as PM should the vote go against him, and the fall-out is going to be enormous. There's certainly a whiff of defeatism around the remain camp now.
Yeah I totally agree. I think he saw the referendum as something he could comfortably win and so put it in their manifesto as a tactical attempt to win over a few of the UKIPers. Clearly it's spectacularly backfired in his face as the signs are pretty ominous now for remain. I can't see how he can carry on as PM if Remain win either though, his leadership has been badly compromised by the campaign.
It's interesting as I did hear the other day that the Tory Remain insiders had said that the big lesson the leadership had learned during the Scottish In/Out campaign was that project fear worked. I thought that was a strange reading of the situation since it was a much closer result than anticipated and that the Scot's voters brutally punished Labour for being involved at the GE. Personally I think it's fairly clear that project fear was counter productive in Scotland and has been counter productive in the EU Referendum.
On the day the referendum was announced I think a vote would have been 60/40 to remain , by sheer arrogance and total incompetence Cameron is on the brink of turning this into a leave verdict . The probable factor to get the final swing in voting is that many will use it as a anti Cameron vote .
O k ,apart from his scare tactics , we,ve heard from Cameron and fellow politicians , journalist etc warning against entering into the unknown (exit EU ).
Just for hope and comfort I offer this thought ......
Politicians and academics offer little but words
What has but the GREAT in Great Britain is those businessmen, explorers ,scientists ,medics etc who have had the bottle and stepped into the unknown . They will do it again .
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On the day the referendum was announced I think a vote would have been 60/40 to remain , by sheer arrogance and total incompetence Cameron is on the brink of turning this into a leave verdict . The probable factor to get the final swing in voting is that many will use it as a anti Cameron vote .
O k ,apart from his scare tactics , we,ve heard from Cameron and fellow politicians , journalist etc warning against entering into the unknown (exit EU ).
Just for hope and comfort I offer this thought ......
Politicians and academics offer little but words
What has but the GREAT in Great Britain is those businessmen, explorers ,scientists ,medics etc who have had the bottle and stepped into the unknown . They will do it again .
I think you're spot on with your 60/40 assessment at the start of all this GHM...I never imagined that we could ever get out of the EU, I still think it's unlikely...someone once said ' If your vote could change anything then they wouldn't have given it to you '. I've always had the feeling that this whole process was just an elaborate charade, a bit like Cameron's attempt to renegotiate our EU deal, but it's all run away from the controlling powers and there now appears to be a chance of winning the vote, but its still too close to call.
Another possibile outcome of course is that the country votes for a Brexit, the government puts forward legislation to leave the EU, and Parliament votes it down thus precipitating a general election in which only UKIP campaign for Brexit. Ipso facto this country stays in the EU despite the wishes of the population, and becomes the laughing stock of the world.
A horrible possibility, and one that would cause large scale civil unrest, but this is an eventuality that is already being discussed.
The in/out referendum could go down in history as the in/in referendum :dan
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Thanks to Cameron and Osbourne come June 23rd whatever the outcome of the vote we will be established as the laughing stock of the world .
Anyone known what happens if the vote is only a few thousand (very small in referendum terms ) majority , can a recount be demanded ?
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Very much along the lines of the 'don't believe a word of it' is this from Boris - whichever way the wind blows!
https://t.co/s08o9nTl8s
In short he is out for his own personal gain (shot at being PM) so the guy is a complete bandwagon jumper. With Gove just in behind to pick up the scraps.
I absolutely detest how politicians and business leaders alike are playing so fast and loose with the economy and the faith voters have in democracy to either climb the greasy pole or get headlines. Sadly not surprised by it though.
As a general rule, I think the 'all politicians are self-interested careerists' and 'Tories hate everyone but the rich' lines are grossly exaggerated.
But Boris really is a special case - a Category A charlatan. At least Gove and Farage are just good old fashioned fruitloops.
Will be interesting to see just how permanent any leave vote is. If leave get 51% and the economy promptly goes into free fall, I imagine the polls would quickly swing 60/40 back to remain. There's then a question of if a second referendum is appropriate. I guess if Cameron has been replaced by Boris by then there is no prospect of that actually being held.
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As a general rule, I think the 'all politicians are self-interested careerists' and 'Tories hate everyone but the rich' lines are grossly exaggerated.
I would say this is spot on for the 'acceptable' face of the Tory party, the Ken Clarkes and such like, who occupy the right side of the centre. There ARE some decent Tories and the mainstream of the party tends to reflect this, although will never be popular with anyone left of centre.
However we all know that party frequently has internal battles to keep the truly nasty backbenchers - the horrible oiks who really do despise the weak and poor - under control, with varying degrees of success, and moderate leaders are forever having to make deals and compromises with these people.
The problem Cameron and Osborne have now is that they've unleashed a monster and empowered the more unpalatable sections of their own party, who could well be running the country in the event of Brexit.
We'll be getting all misty eyed with fond nostalgia for Nick Clegg and the coalition then.
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At least Gove and Farage are just good old fashioned fruitloops.
Made me chuckle :)
Then I realised they actually are being taken seriously by a significant amount of the population. :(
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Both parties in utter chaos after June 23rd , the country will be like a rudderless ship whatever the outcome of the vote .
Historically both parties address the situation like this in a different manner .
Labour have a good old fashioned public punch-up .
Tories as referred to by Pete B in above post are great exponents of hypocrisy and make unsustainable agreements . Many tory MP s will from June 23rd spend much time looking over their shoulder . Older one,s on here will recall Sir Richard Body a former Boston & Skegness MP and the infamous Bastards of the party .
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Yes, and I think the problem for people like me and many others in the Remain camp is that while I detest what the backbench Tories want to do to our country, Labour offer no credible alternative, aside from waving placards about ‘no austerity’ as if that’s meant to fix everything.
Corbyn is a ridiculous caricature. We’re in the midst of the greatest referendum of our lifetime and the only half-hearted argument this elbow-patch plank is offering is based upon half-witted support for remaining in the EU under the guise of working alongside ‘socialist governments and trade unions’.
Eh? Which socialist governments, Jeremy? More to the point, socialism and trade unions are so far down the priority list of normal people that I sometimes wonder if he was elected as Labour leader as some kind of reality TV show prank.
The world is facing great threats: the rise of an ugly brand of nationalism, an America heading into some kind of ‘cold’ civil war, a chaotic Middle East, a debt-ridden EU, climate change, a belligerent Russia, an unprecedented refugee crisis, ISIL, and North Ferriby United.
And what’s Corbyn’s answer to all this? Trade unions? Really? Does he think people in the decimated industrial heartlands of the north wake up every day to an increasingly bleak future and think: “You know what would sort this derelict ghost town? More socialism!”…?
What a bloody mess.
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I'm sure by now many of you will have heard about the senseless murder of Labour MP Jo Cox today. I think whatever party or opinions you hold, we can all agree that this a complete tragedy for her young family. RIP.
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I'm sure by now many of you will have heard about the senseless murder of Labour MP Jo Cox today. I think whatever party or opinions you hold, we can all agree that this a complete tragedy for her young family. RIP.
This afternoon I removed a post which I submitted this morning , with this tragic murder is became inappropriate .
So sad and thoughts are with the children and husband .
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Yes, and I think the problem for people like me and many others in the Remain camp is that while I detest what the backbench Tories want to do to our country, Labour offer no credible alternative, aside from waving placards about ‘no austerity’ as if that’s meant to fix everything.
Corbyn is a ridiculous caricature. We’re in the midst of the greatest referendum of our lifetime and the only half-hearted argument this elbow-patch plank is offering is based upon half-witted support for remaining in the EU under the guise of working alongside ‘socialist governments and trade unions’.
Eh? Which socialist governments, Jeremy? More to the point, socialism and trade unions are so far down the priority list of normal people that I sometimes wonder if he was elected as Labour leader as some kind of reality TV show prank.
The world is facing great threats: the rise of an ugly brand of nationalism, an America heading into some kind of ‘cold’ civil war, a chaotic Middle East, a debt-ridden EU, climate change, a belligerent Russia, an unprecedented refugee crisis, ISIL, and North Ferriby United.
And what’s Corbyn’s answer to all this? Trade unions? Really? Does he think people in the decimated industrial heartlands of the north wake up every day to an increasingly bleak future and think: “You know what would sort this derelict ghost town? More socialism!”…?
What a bloody mess.
Aptly put
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I'm sure by now many of you will have heard about the senseless murder of Labour MP Jo Cox today. I think whatever party or opinions you hold, we can all agree that this a complete tragedy for her young family. RIP.
This afternoon I removed a post which I submitted this morning , with this tragic murder is became inappropriate .
So sad and thoughts are with the children and husband .
Totally understandable. I've still got plenty to say on the issue but will be taking a day or too off after this.
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I'm sure by now many of you will have heard about the senseless murder of Labour MP Jo Cox today. I think whatever party or opinions you hold, we can all agree that this a complete tragedy for her young family. RIP.
RIP Jo Cox
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Yes r.i.p very sad
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Bless her pure and virtuous soul. Dear Lord and Father of mankind forgive our foolish ways.
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An article from The Spectator
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3647690/Set-Britain-free-Unsure-vote-brilliantly-incisive-verdict-Spectator-nation-s-foremost-political-magazine-help.html
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An article from The Spectator
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3647690/Set-Britain-free-Unsure-vote-brilliantly-incisive-verdict-Spectator-nation-s-foremost-political-magazine-help.html
A video from Prodfesor Michael Dougan, he addresses most of the points in the spectator article.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y&feature=share
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Wow, I didn't expect this. Here is the Editorial from the Mail on Sunday.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3648681/THE-MAIL-SUNDAY-COMMENT-Vote-Remain-safer-freer-prosperous-yes-GREATER-Britain.html
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Wow, I didn't expect this. Here is the Editorial from the Mail on Sunday.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3648681/THE-MAIL-SUNDAY-COMMENT-Vote-Remain-safer-freer-prosperous-yes-GREATER-Britain.html
The Daily Mail are running a double campaign . Weekday = leave. Sunday = remain. Kinda confusing.
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Wow, I didn't expect this. Here is the Editorial from the Mail on Sunday.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3648681/THE-MAIL-SUNDAY-COMMENT-Vote-Remain-safer-freer-prosperous-yes-GREATER-Britain.html
The Daily Mail are running a double campaign . Weekday = leave. Sunday = remain. Kinda confusing.
Not really , Mrs Gove is a regular contributed to the Daily Mail , reputedly on a lucrative return .
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Wow, I didn't expect this. Here is the Editorial from the Mail on Sunday.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3648681/THE-MAIL-SUNDAY-COMMENT-Vote-Remain-safer-freer-prosperous-yes-GREATER-Britain.html
"Cameron deserves credit for toughening up the rules of in-work benefits for migrants "
Really ? Can anyone give agreed details of what these rules are and what date they will be implemented ?
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Campaigning .
Where are they now ?
1 Nic Glegg and the Libs
2 Teressa May , I mean the lady herself not her exposed breasts and fancy
footwear .
3 Alan Johnson MP .
None appear to have made the expected major contributions to the campaign .
Any Ideas why ?
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I'll look at video tomorrow MaxRoss.
A lad I know posed the question " if we were out of eu and the referendum was to go IN. Would you vote to go in"?
Interesting question I thought.
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I'll look at video tomorrow MaxRoss.
A lad I know posed the question " if we were out of eu and the referendum was to go IN. Would you vote to go in"?
Interesting question I thought.
Interesting but if that were the case we would be in a completely different position to now.
Either we would be sitting pretty in a Brexit wonderland, so let's stay OUT. Or we would be scratching around trying to get on while everyone else was doing great, get us IN.
Martin Lewis made a good summary for me, if you think things are ok or you don't want to risk things getting worse then vote Remain. If you think things are bad and are willing to RISK them getting EVEN worse OR that they MIGHT get better then vote Out.
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I see remain are 3 points ahead. Mail on Sunday have come up with the reason of the turn round due to the murder of poor Jo Cox.( Not my view )
Surely the British public are not that fickle as to put the future of generations down to a sympathy vote.
Or maybe it has highlighted her views on the reason to remain in.
Either way that is a 7 point turn round on the previous opinion poll.
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Farage condemns remain for cashing in on Jo cox's death.
Switzerland withdraw application to join EU.
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Big debate at Wembley arena tonight, live on TV.
This will clear a few things up if you are undecided ;D
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The bookies have Remain to win easily at the moment. I suspect it'll be tighter than their odds suggest but at the last election they were more reliable than the pollsters, so I would expect the Remain lot to go charging in all guns blazing at Wembley tonight, full of confidence. Could get feisty.
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The bookies have Remain to win easily at the moment. I suspect it'll be tighter than their odds suggest but at the last election they were more reliable than the pollsters, so I would expect the Remain lot to go charging in all guns blazing at Wembley tonight, full of confidence. Could get feisty.
One thing we can be sure of is, Claims and counter claims. Spin working overtime. Oh and the odd lie chucked in by both sides for good measure. >:(
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The bookies have Remain to win easily at the moment. I suspect it'll be tighter than their odds suggest but at the last election they were more reliable than the pollsters, so I would expect the Remain lot to go charging in all guns blazing at Wembley tonight, full of confidence. Could get feisty.
One thing we can be sure of is, Claims and counter claims. Spin working overtime. Oh and the odd lie chucked in by both sides for good measure. >:(
The only thing I,m sure of as a former Tory voter is that Cameron,s integrity has took a battering and he is no longer fit to run the party . A stay vote would make it more imperative that he is ditched as the EU diplomats will now see him for what he is , all wind , bluster and lies .
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If you watch the whole of this video you may have a better understanding of what's involved in the decision.
https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/06/16/watch-dishonesty-industrial-scale-eu-law-expert-analyses-referendum-debate/
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A cracking debate last night.
I thought leave edged it, just. Maybe I'm bias.
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my final summary :)
1)we give them money and they give us some back to spend on things they tell us.
TROUBLE IS...I DON'T KNOW WHO "THEY" ARE ....
2) i voted "IN" for a 9 (i recall) member free trade agreement.........no mention of Parliaments, Commissions, Courts ..27 members
3) Spain/Ireland/Greece/Italy technically bankrupt..will the answer be to simply print more money?
4) what have Bulgaria/Romania/Hungary brought to the party?
5) will Turkey/Macedonia/Albania bring anything?
6) re the above...its been a great opportunity for big businesses to move their operations to these low income nations
7) why has Switzerland opted not to join the party?
8 ) there is talk of an EU army..........what!!!!!!!!!(The Times)
9) broadsheets saying all countries must be in Euro by 2020.......see 3)
10) what more have these faceless bureaucrats got lined up??
11) we import more than we export..why would they hit us with tariffs?
12) Europe is a 500m market place...the rest of the Globe is much bigger
13) name an MEP? (Other than Farage..whom i hope smug face will soon be off our tv's)
14) Britain is Great...get behind it!...its inventiveness, drive etc has seen us as a global player for centuries..do we want to be another state in a Federal Europe?
15) we are more than one star on another persons flag.......
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The bookies have Remain to win easily at the moment. I suspect it'll be tighter than their odds suggest but at the last election they were more reliable than the pollsters.......
This article might explain why I think the bookies have it wrong for once, I expect a overwhelming out vote on a turnout of over 70%
http://www.zerohedge.com/print/564348
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As you may know the overall IN or OUT result is being declared at Manchester Town Hall on Friday. I work there, and there's a lot of disruption because of it. Security has been stepped up and tomorrow (Thursday) we have to vacate the building by 4-00pm. Police are then searching through all the offices and everything has to be left unlocked. Come Friday no staff are allowed to work in the Town Hall and we're all having to go to other council offices in the city centre. Many staff are taking an Annual Leave day and others are working on the count itself. Thank goodness we work a flexi-time system, coz the city has become markedly busier today, so I'm sure its going to be even busier over the next couple of days. My journey in took 20 minutes longer than usual today, so those working a rigid 9am-5pm will probably have to set out much earlier tomorrow and Friday than their used to. Anyhow, hope the result goes the way you favour - which hopefully is the best way for the country.
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I hope you aren't taking any rubbers in (eraser types)
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my final summary :)
1)we give them money and they give us some back to spend on things they tell us.
TROUBLE IS...I DON'T KNOW WHO "THEY" ARE ....
2) i voted "IN" for a 9 (i recall) member free trade agreement.........no mention of Parliaments, Commissions, Courts ..27 members
3) Spain/Ireland/Greece/Italy technically bankrupt..will the answer be to simply print more money?
4) what have Bulgaria/Romania/Hungary brought to the party?
5) will Turkey/Macedonia/Albania bring anything?
6) re the above...its been a great opportunity for big businesses to move their operations to these low income nations
7) why has Switzerland opted not to join the party?
8 ) there is talk of an EU army..........what!!!!!!!!!(The Times)
9) broadsheets saying all countries must be in Euro by 2020.......see 3)
10) what more have these faceless bureaucrats got lined up??
11) we import more than we export..why would they hit us with tariffs?
12) Europe is a 500m market place...the rest of the Globe is much bigger
13) name an MEP? (Other than Farage..whom i hope smug face will soon be off our tv's)
14) Britain is Great...get behind it!...its inventiveness, drive etc has seen us as a global player for centuries..do we want to be another state in a Federal Europe?
15) we are more than one star on another persons flag.......
Well said that man :bunny :bunny
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Today is the day that could determine the future for generations.
After a lot of debate, and valid points put by both sides, it is time to vote.
Remember to VOTE.
If you do not vote, you cannot complain about any policies implemented by either side.
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Done, now sit and wait for the outcome. I'm not certain how close it will be but at least it might shake a few MP's up, and they certainly need that.
There's not one of them that's been on the TV crowing about what will happen that i would trust.
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So tomorrow we will wake up in either a free democratic globally trading nation, or in an offshore province of a country called Europe...an historic day either way.
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1/8 to remain, 5/1 to leave, with bet365.
I hope the bookies get it very wrong.
They were interviewing yesterday in Banbury, to a man they were voting to remain. I hope it rains heavy in that area ;)
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So tomorrow we will wake up in either a free democratic globally trading nation, or in an offshore province of a country called Europe...an historic day either way.
I'd be keen to hear a bit more detail for each section below on how a Remain vote means that we will not be.........
a) Free
b) Democratic
c) Globally trading
d) A Nation?
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About the only thing I feel confident to predict is that Turkey will be in the EU within 3 years .
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my granddad sed wen he was my age he had nothing evan the shoes he walked in were not his' he's allw ays on about the good old days, I think they were the dark age's I cant vote but if I could witch way would i vote. and when I look at granddad he's better off than he'sever been. the only good thing about the good old days he says he could buy fish an chips for 9pence. how far back you you go to buy them at that price god nows. as for jobs most are jobs the locals, don't want. as I say I cant vote but I do hope you people that can get it right' cus I don't want to loose my phone or my laptop and I don't want granddad riding about on a pushbike again
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About the only thing I feel confident to predict is that Turkey will be in the EU within 3 years .
Eh? You're joking, I assume?
If not, then that was probably the first myth to be debunked during the campaign. Turkey are no closer to joining the European Union now than they were when they first applied in 1987. 1987!!!!!!
And anyone with even a tenuous grasp of the political situation in Turkey knows that they are about as likely to fulfill the criteria for membership in the next three years as I am to marry Beyonce.
And even if they did somehow suddenly turn into a state that could fulfill those obligations, we have a veto.
I can't believe that we are ACTUALLY VOTING TODAY and this stuff is still circulating as fact. I don't know why any the newspapers bother. I don't know why anyone actually bothered.
Unless you are joking, in which case... you got me.
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About the only thing I feel confident to predict is that Turkey will be in the EU within 3 years .
I can't believe that we are ACTUALLY VOTING TODAY and this stuff is still circulating as fact. I don't know why any the newspapers bother. I don't know why anyone actually bothered.
Unless you are joking, in which case... you got me.
My thoughts exactly, it's just bizarre.
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Re TTIP
http://ind.pn/28PotXq
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I have voted, done and dusted. One thing I am sure of, is which ever way it goes, nothing will happen tomorrow, next week or next year.
If by some chance we vote leave, we will find no difference to daily life for the immediate future.
Just speaking to my neighbour, and she said she has voted remain. When I asked her reasons she said " I am so confused by what was said by both sides, I thought better the devil you know " Perhaps too much information is a bad thing ???
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I have voted
Reading your posts on here I guess you voted out?
Just speaking to my neighbour, and she said she has voted remain.
You should of spoke to her before voting then you could of both not bothered :)
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I have voted
Reading your posts on here I guess you voted out?
Just speaking to my neighbour, and she said she has voted remain.
You should of spoke to her before voting then you could of both not bothered :)
HAVE!
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About the only thing I feel confident to predict is that Turkey will be in the EU within 3 years .
Eh? You're joking, I assume?
If not, then that was probably the first myth to be debunked during the campaign. Turkey are no closer to joining the European Union now than they were when they first applied in 1987. 1987!!!!!!
And anyone with even a tenuous grasp of the political situation in Turkey knows that they are about as likely to fulfill the criteria for membership in the next three years as I am to marry Beyonce.
And even if they did somehow suddenly turn into a state that could fulfill those obligations, we have a veto.
I can't believe that we are ACTUALLY VOTING TODAY and this stuff is still circulating as fact. I don't know why any the newspapers bother. I don't know why anyone actually bothered.
Unless you are joking, in which case... you got me.
Just based on the fact that Dave has assured us it wll not happen for 30 years .
Beware my mad predictions do sometimes come true .
One year before the last election I emailed David Wooding , Political Editor Sun On Sunday after he said on Sky News that UKIP would not win a seat . I predicted that they would and also Mark Simmonds would not represent Boston & Skegness after the election . He responded by saying I was talking nonsense but would send me congratulations if I was correct and hoped I would respond in the same manner if he was correct .
I am still waiting for David,s congratulations .
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If the vote goes in favour of leave we will be free to make our own laws, and take decisions without having to worry about interference from the EU.
We can also set about removing most of the mountain of ridiculous regulations that the EU has inflicted on us, keeping the good bits of course :dan
We will be free of the threat of ever closer union with the EU, the inevitable TTIP leading to the loss of our NHS, and we can make trade deals on the global market without being held back by the EU trade deal process.
Anyone who thinks the EU is capable of change needs a chat with their local MEP.
The EU doesn't do change as Cameron might find out if he ever gets to apply his 'emergency brake'; the only braking that will occur is when it breaks off in his hand.
We keep hearing about staying in to fight for change, letting our voice be heard at the negotiating table, staying in the club, blah blah blah, but Juncker has already made it clear that Cameron will not get anything more than his recent 'deal' in which he achieved the cube root of nothing at all.
Accelerated accession talks for Turkey begin on June 30th. Its no coincidence that this has been delayed until after our referendum, Commisioner Sefkovic has promised us a "tsunami" of new EU legislation that has been held back deliberatly to avoid a negative effect on our voting.
Erdogan sacked the man who negotiated the refugee deal between Turkey and the EU and he will be playing hard-ball this time when they get around the table. Visa- free access for everyone to Western Europe.
Expect the 35 outstanding chapters that Cameron is always banging on about to be reduced to little more than 35 sentences. Cameron has a team of UK Civil Servants working on fast-tracking Turkish accession and "paving the way to Ankara" as he put it; theres a couple of paving slabs missing but be in no doubt, the Turk is coming.
Whatever the result this whole process has given us an insight into the personalities of our politicians, not a pretty sight in most cases...probably better leave it there before the thought police arrive and forensically examine this post :police: :dan
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No forensic examination needed, it's just bollocks.
But hey it's my opinion and I'm allowed it, unless the boo hiss nasty EU bogeymen take it away with their mythical EU army (of Turks) tooled up with ISIS sympathising brown faced baddies! Seen as we are run by them...
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It looks like Remain have won so I'm going to get some sleep...at least l won't be tired and disappointed tomorrow morning :'( ???
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2.30 in the morning and I am off to bed.
It looks like all the UK are voting to leave except Scotland and London.
A quick opinion. Just two areas are deciding the outcome with massive remain votes in these areas with sheer volume of votes. Good night
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Arise Sir Nigel.....
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Well I've just woken after a great nights sleep, and it looks like its going to be a lovely day 8)
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Yes, a lovely day.
The pound is crashing, the Scottish are agitating for a second referendum and Sinn Fein are ALREADY talking about a united Ireland, with all the social and political upheaval that issue could reignite.
A lovely day indeed.
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The people have spoken, Independence Day is here.
What a great democratic country we live in, and how amazing that the bulldog spirit is still alive and well, and the British public was able to resist everything that project fear threw at them. 8)
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how's all that new cash for the NHS going lads?
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Just seen that Boston voted 76% leave. Highest in UK.
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$350 billion wiped off the British economy already. And that's just after three hours. The long term devastation is going to be extraordinarily worse.
But remember folks - it was just scaremongering by Project Fear!
Let us now how you get on with building those new hospitals and clinics with the EU fees, won't you?
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FREEDOM!!!
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how's that new unelected leader of the UK we didnt want going?
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It's being reported that this is the worst anyone's seen Sterling since the Russia game.
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$350 billion wiped off the British economy already. And that's just after three hours. The long term devastation is going to be extraordinarily worse.
But remember folks - it was just scaremongering by Project Fear!
Let us now how you get on with building those new hospitals and clinics with the EU fees, won't you?
Ha,ha,ha.... c'mon...show some humble pie ! :bunny :bunny
Billions wiped, or merely just a personal opinion and not fact. Long term, we shall have some, but not all, of that money we send to the EU....job done.
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What happened? I wake up and world war 3 is predicted.
Dodgy Dave resigns.
Tory Mp's are blaming labour for the remain defeat.
The governor of the Bank of England makes Billions available to protect UK's interests.
Stock markets globally crash
We are Dooooooomed I tell you Doooooooomed.
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It's being reported that this is the worst anyone's seen Sterling since the Russia game.
Never mind that Qwerty, how are gold and silver prices?
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Just after 10:30am
The FTSE100 is higher than this time last Friday.
The EUR/GBP is roughly where it was last Wednesday.
The GBP/USD is roughly where it was last Wednesday.
Both metals are up a little in $ & £ terms.
No big shakes...Looks like the remain campaign could HAVE been using scaremongering tactics.
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Just after 10:30am
The FTSE100 is higher than this time last Friday.
The EUR/GBP is roughly where it was last Wednesday.
The GBP/USD is roughly where it was last Wednesday.
Both metals are up a little in $ & £ terms.
No big shakes...Looks like the remain campaign could HAVE been using scaremongering tactics.
That's because at these times last week leave was ahead in the polls - so the markets crashed then, as well. They recovered back to normal levels through the day yesterday when the expectation was of sanity prevailing. Make no mistake, the crash today is the Brexit effect. Our economy is going to be permanently smaller and weaker - and moreover the process of getting there is going to be very ugly.
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And, shock horror, and as predicted by everyone who ticked "stay", the SNP have just announced they have begun the legislative process of a second independence referendum for Scotland, in which the Scottish people will emphatically choose to depart the union and remain a part of the EU.
Which, as I said earlier in this very thread, quite apart from being damaging economically, will necessitate an actual land border between Scotland and England and associated passport controls. Think about that for a moment.
Woo! We've got our country back! Well, bits of it anyway.
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Just after 10:30am
The FTSE100 is higher than this time last Friday.
The EUR/GBP is roughly where it was last Wednesday.
The GBP/USD is roughly where it was last Wednesday.
Both metals are up a little in $ & £ terms.
No big shakes...Looks like the remain campaign could HAVE been using scaremongering tactics.
That's because at these times last week leave was ahead in the polls - so the markets crashed then, as well. They recovered back to normal levels through the day yesterday when the expectation was of sanity prevailing. Make no mistake, the crash today is the Brexit effect. Our economy is going to be permanently smaller and weaker - and moreover the process of getting there is going to be very ugly.
The market crash is due mainly to the EU being weaker when the UK leaves.
The net millions pumped into the EU by Britain each year will leave a big shortfall.
We will negotiate an exit agreement but they will bully us. That is the only way the EU knows how to operate.
We have given power back to people we have voted for, not to corrupt Eurocrats.
Yes it is going to be hard in the short term, but the EU is a broken organisation and we will be better out of it.
28% of laws passed in OUR parliament last year was thrown out by the non elected EU, how can that be democracy?
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28% of laws passed in OUR parliament last year was thrown out by the non elected EU, how can that be democracy?
Er, House of Lords anyone?
When was the last time you voted any of that lot in?
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And, shock horror, and as predicted by everyone who ticked "stay", the SNP have just announced they have begun the legislative process of a second independence referendum for Scotland, in which the Scottish people will emphatically choose to depart the union and remain a part of the EU.
Which, as I said earlier in this very thread, quite apart from being damaging economically, will necessitate an actual land border between Scotland and England and associated passport controls. Think about that for a moment.
Woo! We've got our country back! Well, bits of it anyway.
Let them go.
I have been to Scotland and have never met a more racist lot ( against the English ).
As I said in an earlier post the only yellow ( remain ) on the map last night was London and Scotland.
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28% of laws passed in OUR parliament last year was thrown out by the non elected EU, how can that be democracy?
Er, House of Lords anyone?
When was the last time you voted any of that lot in?
True Pete, the sooner they go the better. I never said what we had was perfect.
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Whatever is and as been said, fact is we are going to be leaving the EU membership behind.
Oh FTSE as just pulled back to around 4% loss Raising its worth by around 55b Since its plung this morning
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What happened? I wake up and world war 3 is predicted.
Dodgy Dave resigns.
Tory Mp's are blaming labour for the remain defeat.
The governor of the Bank of England makes Billions available to protect UK's interests.
Stock markets globally crash
We are Dooooooomed I tell you Doooooooomed.
Victim of your on great campaigning on here Dip .
Build a look-out tower and concrete bunker .
Not long before battle ships will be sailing down the Welland to anchor at the Port of Fosdyke :)
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Just after 10:30am
The FTSE100 is higher than this time last Friday.
The EUR/GBP is roughly where it was last Wednesday.
The GBP/USD is roughly where it was last Wednesday.
Both metals are up a little in $ & £ terms.
No big shakes...Looks like the remain campaign could HAVE been using scaremongering tactics.
That's because at these times last week leave was ahead in the polls - so the markets crashed then, as well. They recovered back to normal levels through the day yesterday when the expectation was of sanity prevailing. Make no mistake, the crash today is the Brexit effect. Our economy is going to be permanently smaller and weaker - and moreover the process of getting there is going to be very ugly.
The market crash is due mainly to the EU being weaker when the UK leaves.
The net millions pumped into the EU by Britain each year will leave a big shortfall.
We will negotiate an exit agreement but they will bully us. That is the only way the EU knows how to operate.
We have given power back to people we have voted for, not to corrupt Eurocrats.
Yes it is going to be hard in the short term, but the EU is a broken organisation and we will be better out of it.
28% of laws passed in OUR parliament last year was thrown out by the non elected EU, how can that be democracy?
That is how most the 52% of those who the academics say are wrong see it . Simple logic . Complex "independent " experts who can,t be wrong allegedly .
Panic created mainly by the realisation of the missing £billions contributed by us .
Again demonstrating what a great bargaining hand Cameron had and he blew it .
Good riddance to Scotland ( more cash hand-outs saved ? ) good riddance to the eurocrats and academics ,
Great British business and a great mixed workforce will overcome the dome mongers who have achieved nothing .
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I'm disappointed, I think we've made a huge mistake to be honest. However, I can't argue with the result, the British public have made their choice. I guess now it's time to see whether everything the leave side told us is true.
I'm certainly very much looking forward to the NHS remaining nationalised and benefiting from a £350m per week cash injection it has been promised by Leave. I assume it's true because it was plastered all over the side of our prime minister in waiting's bus.
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I think the first impact we'll see is a rapid rise in petrol prices as the currency fluctuations take bite :-(
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Just after 10:30am
The FTSE100 is higher than this time last Friday.
The EUR/GBP is roughly where it was last Wednesday.
The GBP/USD is roughly where it was last Wednesday.
Both metals are up a little in $ & £ terms.
No big shakes...Looks like the remain campaign could HAVE been using scaremongering tactics.
That's because at these times last week leave was ahead in the polls - so the markets crashed then, as well. They recovered back to normal levels through the day yesterday when the expectation was of sanity prevailing. Make no mistake, the crash today is the Brexit effect. Our economy is going to be permanently smaller and weaker - and moreover the process of getting there is going to be very ugly.
The market crash is due mainly to the EU being weaker when the UK leaves.
The net millions pumped into the EU by Britain each year will leave a big shortfall.
We will negotiate an exit agreement but they will bully us. That is the only way the EU knows how to operate.
We have given power back to people we have voted for, not to corrupt Eurocrats.
Yes it is going to be hard in the short term, but the EU is a broken organisation and we will be better out of it.
28% of laws passed in OUR parliament last year was thrown out by the non elected EU, how can that be democracy?
Good riddance to Scotland ( more cash hand-outs saved ? ) good riddance to the eurocrats and academics ,
Great British business and a great mixed workforce will overcome the dome mongers who have achieved nothing .
True feelings coming out I see now. To be honest GHM, at some point in the not to distant future you are going to realise you have been sold down the river. Maybe when you or one of your family needs to use A&E or one of the wards they have been trying to close at pilgrim and move to Lincoln. But by then you will have run out of people to blame because they'll be no more EU, no more immigrants no more Scottish.
Edit:
How could I forget academics?!?! What use have academics ever been to anyone :dan
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I'm disappointed, I think we've made a huge mistake to be honest. However, I can't argue with the result, the British public have made their choice. I guess now it's time to see whether everything the leave side told us is true.
I'm certainly very much looking forward to the NHS remaining nationalised and benefiting from a £350m per week cash injection it has been promised by Leave. I assume it's true because it was plastered all over the side of our prime minister in waiting's bus.
Come on Maxross, you are one of the more intelligent posters on here.
Where was £350 million promised to the NHS?
The quote was " we send the EU £350 million per week, let's fund the NHS instead "
What it was saying was £350 million ( disputed figure ) would be better spent on the NHS.
That is how I read it. ;)
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I think the first impact we'll see is a rapid rise in petrol prices as the currency fluctuations take bite :-(
Prices are a worry, but short term I suspect things will stabilise. It's long term inward investment that worries me. Successive governments have let our manufacturing industry slip significantly. What we do make here is often factories owned by foreign multinationals using us as a gateway to Europe. I can't see us being half as attractive a place to invest in going forwards. Especially once Turkey join up next week.... ::)
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I'm disappointed, I think we've made a huge mistake to be honest. However, I can't argue with the result, the British public have made their choice. I guess now it's time to see whether everything the leave side told us is true.
I'm certainly very much looking forward to the NHS remaining nationalised and benefiting from a £350m per week cash injection it has been promised by Leave. I assume it's true because it was plastered all over the side of our prime minister in waiting's bus.
Come on Maxross, you are one of the more intelligent posters on here.
Where was £350 million promised to the NHS?
The quote was " we send the EU £350 million per week, let's fund the NHS instead "
What it was saying was £350 million ( disputed figure ) would be better spent on the NHS.
That is how I read it. ;)
I think it is deliberately misleading personally. They may well have been careful about their language, but the implication is clear. And the £350m figure is more than "disputed", it's completely discredited. At one point this morning, it was being reported that there was enough knocked off share value this morning, to pay the EU annual fee 9 times over.
(http://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/resources/images/5063096/?type=responsive-gallery)
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Just after 10:30am
The FTSE100 is higher than this time last Friday.
The EUR/GBP is roughly where it was last Wednesday.
The GBP/USD is roughly where it was last Wednesday.
Both metals are up a little in $ & £ terms.
No big shakes...Looks like the remain campaign could HAVE been using scaremongering tactics.
That's because at these times last week leave was ahead in the polls - so the markets crashed then, as well. They recovered back to normal levels through the day yesterday when the expectation was of sanity prevailing. Make no mistake, the crash today is the Brexit effect. Our economy is going to be permanently smaller and weaker - and moreover the process of getting there is going to be very ugly.
The market crash is due mainly to the EU being weaker when the UK leaves.
The net millions pumped into the EU by Britain each year will leave a big shortfall.
We will negotiate an exit agreement but they will bully us. That is the only way the EU knows how to operate.
We have given power back to people we have voted for, not to corrupt Eurocrats.
Yes it is going to be hard in the short term, but the EU is a broken organisation and we will be better out of it.
28% of laws passed in OUR parliament last year was thrown out by the non elected EU, how can that be democracy?
Good riddance to Scotland ( more cash hand-outs saved ? ) good riddance to the eurocrats and academics ,
Great British business and a great mixed workforce will overcome the dome mongers who have achieved nothing .
True feelings coming out I see now. To be honest GHM, at some point in the not to distant future you are going to realise you have been sold down the river. Maybe when you or one of your family needs to use A&E or one of the wards they have been trying to close at pilgrim and move to Lincoln. But by then you will have run out of people to blame because they'll be no more EU, no more immigrants no more Scottish.
Edit:
How could I forget academics?!?! What use have academics ever been to anyone :dan
What did you think to Mcfraud and Jim Dick :)?
Complete faith that British industry and our great mixed work force will be the winners ,
some of which in our area would be better off at home watching TV than at work in a packing shed .
Sadly a few members of my family have had to use the NHS in recent times .
Myself, I travelled from Fishtoft to Lincoln over 40 times for treatment last year , some beginning further trips for more treatment . gives a great insight to what the NHS involves . Lincoln County spending £7million on renewing radiotherapy machines .
-
Just after 10:30am
The FTSE100 is higher than this time last Friday.
The EUR/GBP is roughly where it was last Wednesday.
The GBP/USD is roughly where it was last Wednesday.
Both metals are up a little in $ & £ terms.
No big shakes...Looks like the remain campaign could HAVE been using scaremongering tactics.
That's because at these times last week leave was ahead in the polls - so the markets crashed then, as well. They recovered back to normal levels through the day yesterday when the expectation was of sanity prevailing. Make no mistake, the crash today is the Brexit effect. Our economy is going to be permanently smaller and weaker - and moreover the process of getting there is going to be very ugly.
The market crash is due mainly to the EU being weaker when the UK leaves.
The net millions pumped into the EU by Britain each year will leave a big shortfall.
We will negotiate an exit agreement but they will bully us. That is the only way the EU knows how to operate.
We have given power back to people we have voted for, not to corrupt Eurocrats.
Yes it is going to be hard in the short term, but the EU is a broken organisation and we will be better out of it.
28% of laws passed in OUR parliament last year was thrown out by the non elected EU, how can that be democracy?
Good riddance to Scotland ( more cash hand-outs saved ? ) good riddance to the eurocrats and academics ,
Great British business and a great mixed workforce will overcome the dome mongers who have achieved nothing .
True feelings coming out I see now. To be honest GHM, at some point in the not to distant future you are going to realise you have been sold down the river. Maybe when you or one of your family needs to use A&E or one of the wards they have been trying to close at pilgrim and move to Lincoln. But by then you will have run out of people to blame because they'll be no more EU, no more immigrants no more Scottish.
Edit:
How could I forget academics?!?! What use have academics ever been to anyone :dan
What did you think to Mcfraud and Jim Dick :)?
Complete faith that British industry and our great mixed force work force will be the winners .
Sadly a few members of my family have had to use the NHS in recent times .
Myself, I travelled from Fishtoft to Lincoln over 40 times for treatment last year , some beginning further trips for more treatment . gives a great insight to what the NHS involves . Lincoln County spending £7million on renewing radiotherapy machines .
What I thought to Steve Evans and Jim Dick is fairly irrelevant I think, if pressed I would say they were a pair of utter t****ers. I'm not going to judge the entire Scottish nation based on them though.
I'm genuinely sorry to hear you have had to use the NHS and I hope that you and your family are on the road to recovery. I feel fairly passionately about this institution and desperately want to save it. My family have also had cause to use it in the past year and it has been heart breaking to see the way it has been deliberately run down by the government. I'm angry that the very people responsible for that, have had the brass to then go out and sell a lie to the British people that they are the people who are going to save it.
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I think the first impact we'll see is a rapid rise in petrol prices as the currency fluctuations take bite :-(
Get yourself an electric car Ferret , or a bike .
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Well if we don't reach the playoffs next year we'll know what the cause is
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Well the GBP crashed althou later stabilise at the lower end, Some would say the market crashed but we did better than any other EU market today in what is been described as a remarkable turn around of the UK market begining the day with a crash of 8.7% to finish at only 2.82% fall compared to other EU markets which all fell between 6% and 13%
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And, shock horror, and as predicted by everyone who ticked "stay", the SNP have just announced they have begun the legislative process of a second independence referendum for Scotland, in which the Scottish people will emphatically choose to depart the union and remain a part of the EU.
Which, as I said earlier in this very thread, quite apart from being damaging economically, will necessitate an actual land border between Scotland and England and associated passport controls. Think about that for a moment.
Woo! We've got our country back! Well, bits of it anyway.
Let the Jocks do what they want, they are not that liking of us anyway. A Border between us both wouldn't be any big deal either. We are better off without that Horrid Sturgeon trying to dictate to us,just toss her a caber when she wants to pop over and she can take flight on it like the witch she is .
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Seriously, what loss would Scotland be ?
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Well the GBP crashed althou later stabilise at the lower end, Some would say the market crashed but we did better than any other EU market today in what is been described as a remarkable turn around of the UK market begining the day with a crash of 8.7% to finish at only 2.82% fall compared to other EU markets which all fell between 6% and 13%
Not be long before most are saying "what was all the fuss about ".
Already fears that other countries will follow us , a good indicator that me may well have made the right decision .
Countries already making noises about being able to fix up deals with us .
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I wonder if Corbyn will become another casualty of all this. He was very much under the radar in what I thought was a pretty underwhelming Remain campaign. He has been eurosceptic in the past so I guess it could have been seen as disingenuous if he had suddenly come out as a massive europhile.
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Boris seemed strangely subdued at the Vote Leave press conference earlier. It's almost as if he didn't actually expect Brexit to happen and only chose to campaign for it for the sake of him becoming PM one day. Perhaps October, with the UK on the edge of breaking up and the economy paralysed by uncertainty is not exactly what he had in mind...
Also, we're probably going to need to make some cuts. I damn well hope they start with the state pension.
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Boris seemed strangely subdued at the Vote Leave press conference earlier. It's almost as if he didn't actually expect Brexit to happen and only chose to campaign for it for the sake of him becoming PM one day. Perhaps October, with the UK on the edge of breaking up and the economy paralysed by uncertainty is not exactly what he had in mind...
Also, we're probably going to need to make some cuts. I damn well hope they start with the state pension.
The debate on this board has been going on for several weeks. And that last statement is the most offensive I have seen.
First, let me state I do not receive a state pension. But those that do, have PAID into the pension system, it is their right.
Also some collecting the pension fought for the right for you to speak freely.
What happened yesterday was the people of Britain saying enough is enough, not just pensioners as you are inferring.
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Boris seemed strangely subdued at the Vote Leave press conference earlier. It's almost as if he didn't actually expect Brexit to happen and only chose to campaign for it for the sake of him becoming PM one day. Perhaps October, with the UK on the edge of breaking up and the economy paralysed by uncertainty is not exactly what he had in mind...
Also, we're probably going to need to make some cuts. I damn well hope they start with the state pension.
The debate on this board has been going on for several weeks. And that last statement is the most offensive I have seen.
First, let me state I do not receive a state pension. But those that do, have PAID into the pension system, it is their right.
Also some collecting the pension fought for the right for you to speak freely.
What happened yesterday was the people of Britain saying enough is enough, not just pensioners as you are inferring.
You have always been an arrogant little s**t and that last statement proves that.
Are you still at uni ? If so, join the real world.
Sorry Ken, remove if you want, but that statement was out of order.
Well if I made the point too bluntly, apologies. It's a view based on more than just a knee jerk reaction to this outcome - the pension has been just about the one item of government spending to rise in real terms over the last six years, whereas everything else has been cut back. Given that age demographic tend to be richer than most, I think that is both indefensible and unsustainable and it should have been frozen in real terms. It's the grey vote that is dragging us out of the EU, yet they seem the ones who will have to deal with the consequences least - young people are utterly fed up with the legacy they are being bequeathed.
For the record, no, I've been working for two years. In a job which I'm not extremely worried about - because in the real world our economy is highly reliant on trade and cooperation with the continent that we have just decided to tear ourselves away from.
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What happened yesterday was the people of Britain saying enough is enough, not just pensioners as you are inferring.
You have always been an arrogant little s**t and that last statement proves that.
Are you still at uni ? If so, join the real world.
Sorry Ken, remove if you want, but that statement was out of order.
No, you are out of order. Abusing someone because of their opinion - and saying "If so, join the real world"? Saying sorry doesn't excuse it.
The biggest age group to vote OUT, was those 65+.
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What happened yesterday was the people of Britain saying enough is enough, not just pensioners as you are inferring.
You have always been an arrogant little s**t and that last statement proves that.
Are you still at uni ? If so, join the real world.
Sorry Ken, remove if you want, but that statement was out of order.
No, you are out of order. Abusing someone because of their opinion - and saying "If so, join the real world"? Saying sorry doesn't excuse it.
The biggest age group to vote OUT, was those 65+.
WOW, how dare you take my post out of context. It was the statement concerning the old age pension, and you know it was.
As I said, I do not receive a state pension. But to wish for it to be cut is out of order. These people have worked all their life and PAID into a fund to ensure they have something to live on when they retire.
I was out of order calling Adam and I will remove it. But it does not change my opinion on the pension issue.
It is like going to a bank and wanting to withdraw your own money. Only to be told sorry, but you can have some of it we are keeping the rest. The state pension is a RIGHT, and not a gift by the government.
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In all honesty I wasn't that bothered. Freedom of speech and all that.
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The age breakdown of Brexit voters is based on UK wide, Not solely Lincolnshire of which we base so many of our personal opinions on. Had we based the figures on Lincolnshire only, where the OUT vote was over 70% in many areas,you will find that many youngsters were also among these voters. Not everyone living in this County is over 65, aging and unable to consider our youth.
I considered everything i could, and voted to protect the future for our next generations. Its my opinion of course, nothing more. But when i am among as i say, over 70% of this area's voters, then i think that those 30% who wanted remain should just accept defeat gracefully.
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Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
Secondly, apparently young people are moaning that older people have "taken their future"
I ask them "would you want to walk through a minefield first or second"?
We've been through it....
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I think the EU are right (never thought I'd say that), we should get on with the process, invoke Article 50 and GTFO.
If we hang about until October we will lose momentum.
The Remain side have been stressy right from the start and that has been reflected on Patter by some of the posts. Its now degenerated further with some very sour grapes countrywide, so the sooner a new PM is appointed the better :police:
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Boris seemed strangely subdued at the Vote Leave press conference earlier. It's almost as if he didn't actually expect Brexit to happen and only chose to campaign for it for the sake of him becoming PM one day. Perhaps October, with the UK on the edge of breaking up and the economy paralysed by uncertainty is not exactly what he had in mind...
Also, we're probably going to need to make some cuts. I damn well hope they start with the state pension.
Vindictive non democratic prat.
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The stuff about sour grapes is interesting. When the polls suggested a remain win on the day, several leave campaigners, from the Tories and UKIP, and including Nigel Farage came out and said that they "wouldn't accept a result below 60% for remain". So I think we'd be having exactly the same argument with the roles reversed if remain had won. It was incredibly tight over all.
Nearly half the population voted to remain so it's simply not that clear cut. I think anyone who voted leave should be happy to have won, but maybe imagine how they might be feeling if the roles had been reversed. Lots of people had huge doubts over the case to leave and lots of people feel agrieved by the downright lies told by the leave campaign. Maybe if they'd fought a fair fight (this applies to both sides) there would be less acrimony. But they didn't and our prime minister in waiting, and his likely deputy, have set a very low water mark when it comes to trust. We're all going to be governed by these people so I think it's something we should al be worrying about.
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Boris seemed strangely subdued at the Vote Leave press conference earlier. It's almost as if he didn't actually expect Brexit to happen and only chose to campaign for it for the sake of him becoming PM one day. Perhaps October, with the UK on the edge of breaking up and the economy paralysed by uncertainty is not exactly what he had in mind...
Also, we're probably going to need to make some cuts. I damn well hope they start with the state pension.
Vindictive non democratic prat.
I'm not even sure whether to take it as an insult Mel - as Churchill once said, the best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. The words have never rang truer than they have in the last couple of days...
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Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
No, but the government know who voted for what, and they have your date of birth!
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Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
They can only take polls ...thee us no hard evidence
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
No, but the government know who voted for what, and they have your date of birth!
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Parliament are to debate a second referendum apparently, one is enough I think.
They can also vote down the result of the one we've just held, a nightmare scenario if ever there was one :police:
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The Remain side have been stressy right from the start and that has been reflected on Patter by some of the posts. Its now degenerated further with some very sour grapes countrywide, so the sooner a new PM is appointed the better :police:
It's not sour grapes at all. It's exasperation that a lot of leave voters - not all, and I have to say that with a couple of exceptions the debate here has been of a markedly more informed level than many places - had no idea what they were actually voting for and didn't want to listen to anyone who tried explaining it. And now some of what remain said would happen is actually happening, they are starting to regret their choice. Some of the absolute dogpoo I've seen dribbled over Facebook and Twitter the last 24 hours would be hilarious if it didn't have such profound and lasting consequences. Ignorance is no excuse.
The fact that Leave are now pursuing a Norway style deal is also unbelievable. There will be riots when people figure out what the consequences of this are, and they've been played for idiots. This is why Boris looks so despondent; he's been left in the poo by Cameron, and he knows it.
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Truth is i fear a re vote will completly send the markets and pound into meltdown, The reaction yesterday morning showed the market dont like new things facing them, the fact it finished up on a 7 day line showed that once the market had settled into knowing the choice was made and the BOE was ready for it then it becomes buisness as normal.
We look at ages etc and see the young voted in but the older range voted out but lets not forget the some of them was around when it was the common market and not a dictatorship and made it clear in there votes that there life before was better than under just a UK goverment than a EU Goverment.
The voting map shows no suprises in the way it went, most out votes came from places high on migration, void of investment,High crime rate per a head,low health per a head and most rules and reg made by the EU do not fit them areas where as most in votes came from areas of high EU investment, mostly good wealth and health.
I voted out but would have prefered to be in but felt the EU cash cow and current Goverment can't see outside its cities and as we hear today our relationship with brussels wasnt as good as it was made out to be so i just couldnt see any changes in this
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Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
No, but the government know who voted for what, and they have your date of birth!
Am I missing something here as I don't recall a space on my voting form for people to write their names and ages.
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Truth is i fear a re vote will completly send the markets and pound into meltdown, The reaction yesterday morning showed the market dont like new things facing them, the fact it finished up on a 7 day line showed that once the market had settled into knowing the choice was made and the BOE was ready for it then it becomes buisness as normal.
To be honest, there's little point trying to read into the markets on an intra-day reaction basis in any case (though there will no doubt be plenty of roller coaster days to come). The effects are more likely to show through a prolonged stagnation/gradual fall, when the counter factual would have been a strong and growing economy. We probably won't know what the 'real' value of sterling would be, because I'm not sure the Bank of England will let it be known how much of its reserves it will use to support the pound.
But the effects on the economy will be very real. It's 2016: people have jobs working for firms which have offices in the UK and Europe. Working fluidly across the offices - having teams comprised of people in London and Brussels - providing services to clients in Copenhagen - is part of their culture. These companies are in complete shellshock, because that business model might just cease to be a possibility very soon. People don't realise - or don't care - how intertwined our economy is with Europe. Or many just don't care - but that is perhaps even sadder, because such people tend to be those who recessions hit in the harshest way.
The only way to avoid real damage is if we stay a member of the EEA. On one hand, I'd be happy with it - because it avoids trashing the country completely (we might even cling on to Scotland), but on another it is desperately sad, as we will have achieved precisely nothing other than a downgrading of our current membership status and a lessening of our status in the world. It would send leave voters and Nigel Farage utterly apoplectic, which is both a hilarious and scary prospect (scary because it risks violence).
Incidentally, has anyone got any idea how the feck we're actually going to enact this - given the enormous pro-Remain majority in the House of Commons? If Labour can manage to get rid of Corbyn and replace him with a vaguely animate human being, it's easy to see a coalition of them, the Lib Dems and the SNP being formed after a General Election. A year ago, I hated the prospect of such a coalition, but I'd give an awful lot for it now.
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Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
No, but the government know who voted for what, and they have your date of birth!
Am I missing something here as I don't recall a space on my voting form for people to write their names and ages.
When I voted, they noted down a reference number against my name/address. I presumed this would be to cross-reference for statistics.
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Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
Secondly, apparently young people are moaning that older people have "taken their future"
I ask them "would you want to walk through a minefield first or second"?
We've been through it....
I admit to being a bloody liability to the younger generation , I,m 75 years of age paid my taxes and rates/ council tax etc which of much has gone to building roads ,hospitals etc for the old and young . During part of my working life I met hundreds of Bostonian OAP,s on a regular basis . I addressed these OAPs with respect whether is was a retired refuge collector ,retired businessman, doctor or even retired authors and the inflicted such as war veterans .
In return they enriched my knowledge by passing on many lessons they had learned in life , much of it more useful than some of the stuff taught at some education establishments . Dignity tolerance and respect to others was the stand out tips .
In recent months when speaking to local OAPs, they like myself put the future of their children/ grandchildren first and foremost when considering which way to vote . They said it would mean voting out . Like in my experience stated above these OAPs come from a good cross section of professions , clinicians , business and mainly skilled workers .
Little doubt that they grey vote made a big contribution at Boston , maybe someone (maybe Adam) can explain why us present day oldies got it all wrong and those only just entering adulthood seem to know the answers to a very complex emerging part our history , a subject even the experts disagree on .
If there was another referendum what action could be taken to get the correct outcome .
1 . Ban the over 60s voting
2 Declare the negative vote the winner . i.e . in 52out 48 stay vote, declare the 48 vote the winner .
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Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
No, but the government know who voted for what, and they have your date of birth!
Am I missing something here as I don't recall a space on my voting form for people to write their names and ages.
When I voted, they noted down a reference number against my name/address. I presumed this would be to cross-reference for statistics.
In time I'm sure the government could work out who voted for what. But to do that, someone would need to input 34 million records into a spreadsheet before the data could be analysed meaningfully. That would be physically impossible in the time we've had since the referendum took place. Therefore any stats analysing votes by age must be questionable.
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Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
No, but the government know who voted for what, and they have your date of birth!
Am I missing something here as I don't recall a space on my voting form for people to write their names and ages.
When I voted, they noted down a reference number against my name/address. I presumed this would be to cross-reference for statistics.
In time I'm sure the government could work out who voted for what. But to do that, someone would need to input 34 million records into a spreadsheet before the data could be analysed meaningfully. That would be physically impossible in the time we've had since the referendum took place. Therefore any stats analysing votes by age must be questionable.
I'm pretty sure the age demographics came from the yougov poll taken on the day.
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Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
Secondly, apparently young people are moaning that older people have "taken their future"
I ask them "would you want to walk through a minefield first or second"?
We've been through it....
Little doubt that they grey vote made a big contribution at Boston , maybe someone (maybe Adam) can explain why us present day oldies got it all wrong and those only just entering adulthood seem to know the answers to a very complex emerging part our history , a subject even the experts disagree on .
If there was another referendum what action could be taken to get the correct outcome .
1 . Ban the over 60s voting
2 Declare the negative vote the winner . i.e . in 52out 48 stay vote, declare the 48 vote the winner .
I feel it's the wrong decision because it has put at peril Britain's place in the world's biggest single common market - which in 2016 our economy is deeply intertwined with and dependent upon. This vote has led to the resignation of a very competent Prime Minister - to be replaced by either Boris Johnson (who clearly didn't actually want or expect this result and has no clue whatsoever what to do about it), or Jeremy Corbyn (who has no clue whatsoever about anything, at all). The second largest constituent nation of the UK is likely to accede (who can blame them?), and we are faced with either erecting a land border around our fourth nation or it also acceding. Oh, I may also shortly lose the right to live and work freely across 27 different nations - should I have wished to do so - and many of my friends from abroad are considering leaving the country. The impact of 'making our own laws' is actually that we have to rewrite 40 years of legislation over boring but essential things like product standards - basically replacing European red tape with British red tape and ensuring that businesses have to meet two sets rather than one if they wish to sell abroad.
A year ago Great Britain had the fastest growing economy in the Western world. Now we have no leadership,fewer friends and no bloody clue where we'll be in five years time.
Happy Independence Day!
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One thing that is really bugging me about this thread is the sort of benign dismissal of young people as if they don't know anything or their opinion isn't worth anything because they don't have enough life experience. It's pretty patronising to be honest. I hate to see anyone dismissed based on age, it's knowledge and understanding that is important.
Young people have been some of the worst hit in recent years. They are faced with a job market made up by low paying/low skill jobs and zero hour contracts. If they choose to go to uni they are hit with fees of £9,000 per year on top of living expenses. House prices have rocketed which prices a lot of them out of the market at forces them to rent, where they got totally ripped off. It's pretty bleak and I can see where they're angry.
When older people try to tell me they've "seen it all before" I'm always reminded of the lyrics of that old Baz Luhrman track....
"Be careful whose advice you buy but be patient with those who supply it
Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of fishing the past
From the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts
And recycling it for more than it's worth"
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2 Declare the negative vote the winner . i.e . in 52out 48 stay vote, declare the 48 vote the winner .
Yes the intellectual gulag are pushing to make this an in/in referendum.
In an ideal world Cameron would have started sorting out plan b when he first offered us the chance to vote on this.
Shows a staggering level of arrogance and stupidity to offer the plebiscite and then do bugger all for a contingency plan. The ultimate piss take by the elite to assume that they could just frighten us plebs into their way of thinking by wheeling out 'experts' and establishment celebrities on a daily basis. It worked for them in the Scottish Referendum but as soon as Obama stuck his oar in it seemed unlikely that those tactics were going to work.
That's when Cameron should have levelled with us. If he'd have made a statement along the lines of "Listen guys, I know I offered you an in/out referendum but it was token gesture politics, and in reality, if we vote out we're fecked" well who knows, the general public might've respected his honesty and taken notice.
He's still at it now, resigning and then saying he's not going until October, giving enough time for an alternative outcome to a Brexit to be formulated by his establishment cronies.
Cameron should be removed to the Tower and Liam Fox brought in as an interim measure to get on with invoking Article 50 and sorting out the mess left behind. Germany are already asking about trade with the UK after we leave and there will be plenty more in the queue. :police:
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Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
Secondly, apparently young people are moaning that older people have "taken their future"
I ask them "would you want to walk through a minefield first or second"?
We've been through it....
In recent months when speaking to local OAPs, they like myself put the future of their children/ grandchildren first and foremost when considering which way to vote . They said it would mean voting out .
By ignoring what they wanted and deciding that they knew better?
Well, maybe the young (and I include myself in this) could argue the converse, that we voted for what we thought was in your best interests. Like a successful economy with lots of young immigrants paying taxes to fund your pensions, maintain the NHS (which you are much more likely to need than us) and working as care workers?
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http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html
And an interesting view from an Italian.....
http://youtu.be/2Futxf1U2f8
Tbh it's like religion.....it's what you believe, what you feel. Only hindsight will deliver the answers.
I saw a Facebook post earlier today where Eu workers here are planning a General strike on .july 4th....
I wonder what will happen there?
I personally don't want to see a mass exodus of them....just some sort of regulated flow both ways.
What would happen to them wasn't discussed during the debates (or did I miss something)
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http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html
What would happen to them wasn't discussed during the debates (or did I miss something)
Nothing will happen to them. Those already here will never be told to leave, otherwise Aunt Bettie who's retired to Spain or Mark Isaac who has a house in France can expect the same treatment, and that won't be acceptable will it?
The more likely scenario is that our economy tanks and all the migrants who haven't laid down substantial roots bugger off to better performing nations, leaving a massive labour shortage in Lincolnshire (it's worth remembering local landowners thought a Brexit vote would be a disaster for the Boston local economy - see the John Harris film from last year).
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http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html
And an interesting view from an Italian.....
http://youtu.be/2Futxf1U2f8
Tbh it's like religion.....it's what you believe, what you feel. Only hindsight will deliver the answers.
I saw a Facebook post earlier today where Eu workers here are planning a General strike on .july 4th....
I wonder what will happen there?
I personally don't want to see a mass exodus of them....just some sort of regulated flow both ways.
What would happen to them wasn't discussed during the debates (or did I miss something)
It's an interesting video. It doesn't really chime with the reality for me though. I've worked for a couple of small to medium engineering firms in the recent past that were selling products via the common market. I would imagine right now they will worrying what this means for them as that was basically their core business. Additionally we were selling products to China, Malysia and South Korea without any blocks put in by the EU. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't detected any issue whereby EU membership inhibits trade with country's outside the block?
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From another prospective, these are interesting facts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9cLwoTkWes
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Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
Secondly, apparently young people are moaning that older people have "taken their future"
I ask them "would you want to walk through a minefield first or second"?
We've been through it....
Little doubt that they grey vote made a big contribution at Boston , maybe someone (maybe Adam) can explain why us present day oldies got it all wrong and those only just entering adulthood seem to know the answers to a very complex emerging part our history , a subject even the experts disagree on .
If there was another referendum what action could be taken to get the correct outcome .
1 . Ban the over 60s voting
2 Declare the negative vote the winner . i.e . in 52out 48 stay vote, declare the 48 vote the winner .
I feel it's the wrong decision because it has put at peril Britain's place in the world's biggest single common market - which in 2016 our economy is deeply intertwined with and dependent upon. This vote has led to the resignation of a very competent Prime Minister - to be replaced by either Boris Johnson (who clearly didn't actually want or expect this result and has no clue whatsoever what to do about it), or Jeremy Corbyn (who has no clue whatsoever about anything, at all). The second largest constituent nation of the UK is likely to accede (who can blame them?), and we are faced with either erecting a land border around our fourth nation or it also acceding. Oh, I may also shortly lose the right to live and work freely across 27 different nations - should I have wished to do so - and many of my friends from abroad are considering leaving the country. The impact of 'making our own laws' is actually that we have to rewrite 40 years of legislation over boring but essential things like product standards - basically replacing European red tape with British red tape and ensuring that businesses have to meet two sets rather than one if they wish to sell abroad.
A year ago Great Britain had the fastest growing economy in the Western world. Now we have no leadership,fewer friends and no bloody clue where we'll be in five years time.
Happy Independence Day!
Odd that you keep giving us long sermon,s about a very complex subject yet when I put a simple question to you that only needs a short answer you fail to respond !!! what is your response to my clear question ?
Judging on your comments re Cameron I think it,s time to change your spin doctor .
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Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
Secondly, apparently young people are moaning that older people have "taken their future"
I ask them "would you want to walk through a minefield first or second"?
We've been through it....
Little doubt that they grey vote made a big contribution at Boston , maybe someone (maybe Adam) can explain why us present day oldies got it all wrong and those only just entering adulthood seem to know the answers to a very complex emerging part our history , a subject even the experts disagree on .
If there was another referendum what action could be taken to get the correct outcome .
1 . Ban the over 60s voting
2 Declare the negative vote the winner . i.e . in 52out 48 stay vote, declare the 48 vote the winner .
I feel it's the wrong decision because it has put at peril Britain's place in the world's biggest single common market - which in 2016 our economy is deeply intertwined with and dependent upon. This vote has led to the resignation of a very competent Prime Minister - to be replaced by either Boris Johnson (who clearly didn't actually want or expect this result and has no clue whatsoever what to do about it), or Jeremy Corbyn (who has no clue whatsoever about anything, at all). The second largest constituent nation of the UK is likely to accede (who can blame them?), and we are faced with either erecting a land border around our fourth nation or it also acceding. Oh, I may also shortly lose the right to live and work freely across 27 different nations - should I have wished to do so - and many of my friends from abroad are considering leaving the country. The impact of 'making our own laws' is actually that we have to rewrite 40 years of legislation over boring but essential things like product standards - basically replacing European red tape with British red tape and ensuring that businesses have to meet two sets rather than one if they wish to sell abroad.
A year ago Great Britain had the fastest growing economy in the Western world. Now we have no leadership,fewer friends and no bloody clue where we'll be in five years time.
Happy Independence Day!
Odd that you keep giving us long sermon,s about a very complex subject yet when I put a simple question to you that only needs a short answer you fail to respond !!! what is your response to my clear question ?
Judging on your comments re Cameron I think it,s time to change your spin doctor .
Your question was why do I think Brexit is the wrong call. My response was that - amongst other things - the country is now utterly rudderless with no effective government, our economy is going to be deeply wounded, the United Kingdom itself is likely to break up and I may lose the freedom to live and work across Europe. If you still can't digest that, then I'm sorry - it's not possible to simplify it any more. Or perhaps you think these are good things?
And 'long sermon'? It was one paragraph...
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One thing that is really bugging me about this thread is the sort of benign dismissal of young people as if they don't know anything or their opinion isn't worth anything because they don't have enough life experience. It's pretty patronising to be honest. I hate to see anyone dismissed based on age, it's knowledge and understanding that is important.
Young people have been some of the worst hit in recent years. They are faced with a job market made up by low paying/low skill jobs and zero hour contracts. If they choose to go to uni they are hit with fees of £9,000 per year on top of living expenses. House prices have rocketed which prices a lot of them out of the market at forces them to rent, where they got totally ripped off. It's pretty bleak and I can see where they're angry.
When older people try to tell me they've "seen it all before" I'm always reminded of the lyrics of that old Baz Luhrman track....
"Be careful whose advice you buy but be patient with those who supply it
Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of fishing the past
From the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts
And recycling it for more than it's worth"
Agree with the above response apart from it taking my statement out of context . Yes , I do think the OAP vote is a valuable and needed vote in a democratic referendum , after all many OAP,s are active creating hundreds of thousands of jobs .
Exactly like you Maxross I would encourage any young voter to scrutinise politics and get out and vote .
I don,t know what part of the world you live but how do you find the political interest of the young ?.
At the last election I went to almost all the hustling meetings of Matt Warman , the turnout was usually between 8 to 15 people . I can,t recall many under 40s can,t never mind under 21s .
At his last Referendum meet held at the Sack Store the turn-out was 10 , I think its safe t say ALL were offer 60 . No hand vote was needed as it was clear all were outers , even what I would claim as the leading Tory activist in the east midlands over the last 40 years was an outer .
Time the young got stuck in .
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At his last Referendum meet held at the Sack Store the turn-out was 10 , I think its safe t say ALL were offer 60 . No hand vote was needed as it was clear all were outers ,
Sack store? Ironic?
Despite overwhelming out voters in his constituency he went the other way....fair enough with me.
As for the"young"question.....maybe those of us us who voted in and saw what it had become (certainly nothing to what WE were sold at the time) realised our mistake and voted out to benefit the younger ones?
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That's interesting re Matt Warman, echoes of what's happening with Corbyn.
We have a local MP who is out of touch with the views of the majority of his constituents...it will be difficult for the local rag, and the council leader to put a positive spin on that one :police:
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I can't believe all this talk of a second referendum. What would that cost the public purse? If the government chose not to act in the wishes of the majority, wouldn't that mean we no longer lived in a democracy?
Let's look at it another way. A lot of people were unhappy with a football result in North Ferriby a few weeks ago. The outcome was the outcome. But if enough of the dissenters signed a petition to the league, could a replay of the playoff be ordered to take place?
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All this gubbings about the young not being able to travel or work in the EU, as regard travel, ask a youngster where they would like to travel their answer would most likely be Australia, Asia and America, all need visas and passports, and as for work, "If you've got the tools you'll get the job".
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Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
Secondly, apparently young people are moaning that older people have "taken their future"
I ask them "would you want to walk through a minefield first or second"?
We've been through it....
Little doubt that they grey vote made a big contribution at Boston , maybe someone (maybe Adam) can explain why us present day oldies got it all wrong and those only just entering adulthood seem to know the answers to a very complex emerging part our history , a subject even the experts disagree on .
If there was another referendum what action could be taken to get the correct outcome .
1 . Ban the over 60s voting
2 Declare the negative vote the winner . i.e . in 52out 48 stay vote, declare the 48 vote the winner .
I feel it's the wrong decision because it has put at peril Britain's place in the world's biggest single common market - which in 2016 our economy is deeply intertwined with and dependent upon. This vote has led to the resignation of a very competent Prime Minister - to be replaced by either Boris Johnson (who clearly didn't actually want or expect this result and has no clue whatsoever what to do about it), or Jeremy Corbyn (who has no clue whatsoever about anything, at all). The second largest constituent nation of the UK is likely to accede (who can blame them?), and we are faced with either erecting a land border around our fourth nation or it also acceding. Oh, I may also shortly lose the right to live and work freely across 27 different nations - should I have wished to do so - and many of my friends from abroad are considering leaving the country. The impact of 'making our own laws' is actually that we have to rewrite 40 years of legislation over boring but essential things like product standards - basically replacing European red tape with British red tape and ensuring that businesses have to meet two sets rather than one if they wish to sell abroad.
A year ago Great Britain had the fastest growing economy in the Western world. Now we have no leadership,fewer friends and no bloody clue where we'll be in five years time.
Happy Independence Day!
Odd that you keep giving us long sermon,s about a very complex subject yet when I put a simple question to you that only needs a short answer you fail to respond !!! what is your response to my clear question ?
Judging on your comments re Cameron I think it,s time to change your spin doctor .
Your question was why do I think Brexit is the wrong call. My response was that - amongst other things - the country is now utterly rudderless with no effective government, our economy is going to be deeply wounded, the United Kingdom itself is likely to break up and I may lose the freedom to live and work across Europe. If you still can't digest that, then I'm sorry - it's not possible to simplify it any more. Or perhaps you think these are good things?
And 'long sermon'? It was one paragraph...
The question was ,
If there is another referendum what action could be taken to get the correct outcome for the Remains ,
1 Ban the over 60,s voting ,
2 Declare the negative vote the winner , i e 52 out 48 stay ............declare the 48 stay the winner .
The long sermon was an overall description of the many posts of propaganda from your Leave EU Reference
Manual .
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Tetk_ayO1x4
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It strikes me that Brexiteers are willfully ignorant to the options that face us following a Leave vote. If we want to control migration - rightly or wrongly probably the number one concern of Leave votes - we will not have anything like access to the single market on the terms we do now. That would be somewhere between very bad and catastrophic for the economy. It'll mean something between tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of jobs being lost. Just look at what has happened to indicators of business confidence and investment in 2016 at the mere possibility of an exit.
Who will it be who loses their jobs? It certainly won't be people like Boris Johnson and Michael Gove - recessions don't hit Westminster. Could that be why they're so carefree about the prospect of exit? Could it also be one of the reasons why pensioners - whose incomes are not linked to economic performance in the way those of working age people are - are more prone to voting for leave?
Surprised that your EXIT EU REFERENCE MANUAL failed to predict Dodgy Dave would go .
Can you explain to us less educated OAPs why our income not linked to economic performance performance in the same way as working age people ?
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We have our nation back. We must fight against all who attempt to overturn democracy. They ask what is our plan? It is to replace the European laws that we wish to continue with, by passing acts to make it so, and to reject those which we do not wish to continue with. Then we get on with governing the nation. I think that will do for now. What we are offered is blood, toil, tears and sweat (apologies to Sir Winston), but we will emerge into the sunlight of the Britain (historically England) that has been our way of life for the best part of a thousand years. We have always opposed the overpowering force of the strongest power in Europe by backing the second strongest. This way, we keep Europe under control, although Louis XIV, Napoleon and Hitler temporarily gave us problems.
I fear that any attempt to overturn a democratic decision, by whatever means, will result in blood letting on a level that has not been seen in our nation certainly since the act of settlement, and probably much longer. We must move forward and educate the younger generation who cannot remember what it means to be in charge of our own country, and do business with the rest of the world (including Europe). If we have decent products and services to sell, the world will buy. Don't let anyone convince you that the vote was a mistake. It was the saving of a nation, and I have the temerity to suggest, the saving of the 21st Century World.
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We have our nation back. We must fight against all who attempt to overturn democracy. They ask what is our plan? It is to replace the European laws that we wish to continue with, by passing acts to make it so, and to reject those which we do not wish to continue with. Then we get on with governing the nation. I think that will do for now. What we are offered is blood, toil, tears and sweat (apologies to Sir Winston), but we will emerge into the sunlight of the Britain (historically England) that has been our way of life for the best part of a thousand years. We have always opposed the overpowering force of the strongest power in Europe by backing the second strongest. This way, we keep Europe under control, although Louis XIV, Napoleon and Hitler temporarily gave us problems.
I fear that any attempt to overturn a democratic decision, by whatever means, will result in blood letting on a level that has not been seen in our nation certainly since the act of settlement, and probably much longer. We must move forward and educate the younger generation who cannot remember what it means to be in charge of our own country, and do business with the rest of the world (including Europe). If we have decent products and services to sell, the world will buy. Don't let anyone convince you that the vote was a mistake. It was the saving of a nation, and I have the temerity to suggest, the saving of the 21st Century World.
Yeah, except Boris has tonight confirmed he wants to stay in the single market, so his plan is basically everything staying exactly the same as now - we just won't get a vote in the EU parliament.
That what you voted for?
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I don't remember voting on what Boris thinks, nor do I believe his opinions to be relevant. I know only what I voted for, and that is to return the sovereignty of my country to the state that I enjoyed in my youth. It was a matter of Great Britain, or little britain as a minor parish in an out of control monolith. Parliament will decide what we agree to as we are once again a unitary power beholden to no other nation. How parliament is constituted will depend on the will of the people, and as such, I see the need for an early general election to sort out the present chaos. Let us make our own laws and stop worrying about the fetters of a single market or any other European pretension. We voted for a single market once and we were duped . We should not fall into that trap again. If we mess up this God-given opportunity, history will be unforgiving.
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Well said Fairfax, i feel exactly the same.
Boris plays the buffoon, in reality he's just like dodgy Dave. Politics is a dirty game, they all fid and would stich up anyone to get where they want to be.
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Just to make absolutely clear, I don't back a second referendum.
Now that the lies are starting to unravel though, with Leavers tripping over each other to back tracking on the £350m and immigration, I would be interested to hear what those who voted leave feel about the fact that they were sold a whole bunch of lies?
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We have our nation back. We must fight against all who attempt to overturn democracy. They ask what is our plan? It is to replace the European laws that we wish to continue with, by passing acts to make it so, and to reject those which we do not wish to continue with. Then we get on with governing the nation. I think that will do for now. What we are offered is blood, toil, tears and sweat (apologies to Sir Winston), but we will emerge into the sunlight of the Britain (historically England) that has been our way of life for the best part of a thousand years. We have always opposed the overpowering force of the strongest power in Europe by backing the second strongest. This way, we keep Europe under control, although Louis XIV, Napoleon and Hitler temporarily gave us problems.
I fear that any attempt to overturn a democratic decision, by whatever means, will result in blood letting on a level that has not been seen in our nation certainly since the act of settlement, and probably much longer. We must move forward and educate the younger generation who cannot remember what it means to be in charge of our own country, and do business with the rest of the world (including Europe). If we have decent products and services to sell, the world will buy. Don't let anyone convince you that the vote was a mistake. It was the saving of a nation, and I have the temerity to suggest, the saving of the 21st Century World.
I don't know how old you are, but I'm not sure if that country as you remember it ever really existed. It's natural to always look back at the past with rose tinted glasses. Certainly in my studies of history and reading literature from the time, things weren't all that great.
Even if that place you remember so fondly did exist, it doesn't any more, we live in a completely different world to the one we did 50 years ago. We can either choose to embrace that and be a major player, or we can go off and bury our heads in the sand.
The world is a global place now and, although a still a great nation, we are not the great power we once were. The Aneeicans, the Chinese, and now the EU, may listen to us but in the end they will do what is in their own best interests and we will be powerless to stop them. As part of the EU, we were a strong influence within a large block of nations and had a great deal more collective bargaining power.
We have to look forwards not backwards if we are going to continue to be a great nation.
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I don't remember voting on what Boris thinks, nor do I believe his opinions to be relevant. I know only what I voted for, and that is to return the sovereignty of my country to the state that I enjoyed in my youth. It was a matter of Great Britain, or little britain as a minor parish in an out of control monolith. Parliament will decide what we agree to as we are once again a unitary power beholden to no other nation. How parliament is constituted will depend on the will of the people, and as such, I see the need for an early general election to sort out the present chaos. Let us make our own laws and stop worrying about the fetters of a single market or any other European pretension. We voted for a single market once and we were duped . We should not fall into that trap again. If we mess up this God-given opportunity, history will be unforgiving.
You voted to leave the EU. You did not vote to leave the single market. There is therefore absolutely no democratic obligation for the UK government to also quit the EEA, hence the leave campaign now preparing their supporters for this eventuality.
As I said a few pages ago, single market membership – which, like it or not, is critical for the continued presence of financial institutions in the city of London - carries with it many of the same obligations as full EU membership, with absolutely none of the control. We lose the veto on Turkey. We lose the ability to influence laws which we will be expected to abide by. We lose the right, even, to shape the EU’s border control policies, which means we will have even less control of our borders than we do now.
This puts the Government – and it really doesn’t matter who the Government is – in an impossible position.
They either quit the EU AND the single market, and condemn the UK to catastrophic financial ruin as the one thing that keeps this country afloat, the City, departs to Dublin or Frankfurt. Or they commit the UK to continued EEA membership, and betray the millions of Leave voters who voted to ‘take back control’.
The financial realities of the global marketplace means they will probably be forced to opt for the latter. I fear as this becomes apparent, and millions of leave voters realise they were lied to, we are in for social disorder on a scale we have never seen in our lifetimes.
Or they can just quit the single market. Which would be an act of extraordinary vandalism, and unless some kind of deal could be arranged to retain the ‘pass’ outside of the EEA (good luck with that) would lead to financial institutions quitting the city of London en masse (and if you think this would be a good thing for the economy, then feel free to explain your reasons why so we can all have a bloody good laugh at them).
Even Boris knows this would be economic suicide. But if he doesn't take this path, there will be riots. This is the choice that now awaits the next PM – and explains why David Cameron quit rather than make it himself.
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We have our nation back. We must fight against all who attempt to overturn democracy. They ask what is our plan? It is to replace the European laws that we wish to continue with, by passing acts to make it so, and to reject those which we do not wish to continue with. Then we get on with governing the nation. I think that will do for now. What we are offered is blood, toil, tears and sweat (apologies to Sir Winston), but we will emerge into the sunlight of the Britain (historically England) that has been our way of life for the best part of a thousand years. We have always opposed the overpowering force of the strongest power in Europe by backing the second strongest. This way, we keep Europe under control, although Louis XIV, Napoleon and Hitler temporarily gave us problems.
I fear that any attempt to overturn a democratic decision, by whatever means, will result in blood letting on a level that has not been seen in our nation certainly since the act of settlement, and probably much longer. We must move forward and educate the younger generation who cannot remember what it means to be in charge of our own country, and do business with the rest of the world (including Europe). If we have decent products and services to sell, the world will buy. Don't let anyone convince you that the vote was a mistake. It was the saving of a nation, and I have the temerity to suggest, the saving of the 21st Century World.
I don't know how old you are, but I'm not sure if that country as you remember it ever really existed. It's natural to always look back at the past with rose tinted glasses. Certainly in my studies of history and reading literature from the time, things weren't all that great.
Even if that place you remember so fondly did exist, it doesn't any more, we live in a completely different world to the one we did 50 years ago. We can either choose to embrace that and be a major player, or we can go off and bury our heads in the sand.
The world is a global place now and, although a still a great nation, we are not the great power we once were. The Aneeicans, the Chinese, and now the EU, may listen to us but in the end they will do what is in their own best interests and we will be powerless to stop them. As part of the EU, we were a strong influence within a large block of nations and had a great deal more collective bargaining power.
We have to look forwards not backwards if we are going to continue to be a great nation.
I heard the 70s were great. Our economy - based on mining and the manufacturing of terrible cars - generated so much wealth that we were able to go down to a three day working week!
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The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!
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I heard the 70s were great. Our economy - based on mining and the manufacturing of terrible cars..........
My "terrible" 70's car is still going strong. Although got to agree that you don't see many Marinas, Allegros or Maxis around these days.
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The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!
In 2016 a civil war commenced on Pilgrim Patter based on lies by politicians and speculation from "experts " :)
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The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!
In 2016 a civil war commenced on Pilgrim Patter based on lies by politicians and speculation from "experts " :)
Why do you keep putting experts in inverted commas? I know the answer of course, it's an attempt to try and belittle anyone who's studied the facts and produces an opinion that differs from your own. It's a bit silly isn't it?
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The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!
In 2016 a civil war commenced on Pilgrim Patter based on lies by politicians and speculation from "experts " :)
Why do you keep putting experts in inverted commas? I know the answer of course, it's an attempt to try and belittle anyone who's studied the facts and produces an opinion that differs from your own. It's a bit silly isn't it?
Not silly , have experienced like many the advice of people who,s studied the facts , often results in disaster . Wise not to rely too much on these experts . weather you are an IN or OUTER .
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The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!
In 2016 a civil war commenced on Pilgrim Patter based on lies by politicians and speculation from "experts " :)
Why do you keep putting experts in inverted commas? I know the answer of course, it's an attempt to try and belittle anyone who's studied the facts and produces an opinion that differs from your own. It's a bit silly isn't it?
Not silly , have experienced like many the advice of people who,s studied the facts , often results in disaster . Wise not to rely too much on these experts . weather you are an IN or OUTER .
This is about the daftest comment I've seen on this thread yet and that's saying something! Then again, like your messiah Farage said the other day, "I think the experts have got it wrong on smoking". ::)
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I'm not saying experts are infallible, but does that mean we should ignore all experts? Everyday your very existence relys on experts relying on facts. It why planes fly, cars stop when you touch the brakes and bridges don't normally collapse when you drive over them. You can't just dismiss all experts based on the fact you've had a few bad experiences! If you disagree with something an expert has said, challenge it directly and prove why they are wrong. That goes on in the academic world every single day, trust me.
I can't really believe we are having this conversation. It's surreal.
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I well remember 50 years ago when I was working for the Ministry of Defence and had a very little part in the development of the multi role combat aircraft, later known as the Tornado. That was a combined British, German and Italian project with co-operation which worked before we had any formal link with Europe. There was also the Jaguar and the civil Concorde in co-operation with the French. We had trade deals with the commonwealth and it was a good time to be British. Mary Quant, Twiggy and The Beatles to name but a few were promoting Britain in the United States and apart from the destruction of the grammar school system it was a good time. The problems with such things as the three day week in the early seventies were predominantly the result of political intransigence. During that period, international stability was thanks to NATO, although the Vietnam situation is a major regret. Fortunately, we elected to take no part in that fiasco. We had significant trade in cattle, importing from Argentina and Exporting to the European Continent. Anyone remember Franz Buitelaar? He exported £1 million worth of cattle every day. Finally the seventies were great for me when my wife presented me two wonderful and successful children.
Since that period, we have gradually become more introverted and uncertain of our place in the World. Maybe we will now redefine ourselves and I am optimistic that my future, what little there may be left to me, is brighter than for many years.
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I well remember 50 years ago when I was working for the Ministry of Defence and had a very little part in the development of the multi role combat aircraft, later known as the Tornado. That was a combined British, German and Italian project with co-operation which worked before we had any formal link with Europe. There was also the Jaguar and the civil Concorde in co-operation with the French. We had trade deals with the commonwealth and it was a good time to be British. Mary Quant, Twiggy and The Beatles to name but a few were promoting Britain in the United States and apart from the destruction of the grammar school system it was a good time. The problems with such things as the three day week in the early seventies were predominantly the result of political intransigence. During that period, international stability was thanks to NATO, although the Vietnam situation is a major regret. Fortunately, we elected to take no part in that fiasco. We had significant trade in cattle, importing from Argentina and Exporting to the European Continent. Anyone remember Franz Buitelaar? He exported £1 million worth of cattle every day. Finally the seventies were great for me when my wife presented me two wonderful and successful children.
Since that period, we have gradually become more introverted and uncertain of our place in the World. Maybe we will now redefine ourselves and I am optimistic that my future, what little there may be left to me, is brighter than for many years.
That's interesting Fairfax, there are parallels between us. I worked and played a small part on the Joint Strike Fighter project working for the US Government at RR in Bristol and also have a happy family with two children. Many of those I worked with had worked on the Concorde and Tornado projects.
You must surely concede though, that the world has changed an awful lot since the 60's? We were riding the wave of a post war reconstruction boom back then. We were also in the process of transition from a superpower and rulers of an Empire back to a nation state and still retained plenty of power and influence at that point. The Suez crisis however, in 1956 laid bare the fact that we were no longer a great power. Unless you are suggesting that the Royal Navy mount some new expeditions to rebuild an empire, those days are over.
I'm proud to be British and we are great at so many things, but we have to work cleverly within our limitations if we are going to continue to be an influence globally. Within the EU we had a leading role, are we going to have that kind of influence over say the Americans or Chinese?
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Anyone remember Franz Buitelaar? He exported £1 million worth of cattle every day.
My Granddad worked there. As far as I remember, he loved it.
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The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!
In 2016 a civil war commenced on Pilgrim Patter based on lies by politicians and speculation from "experts " :)
Why do you keep putting experts in inverted commas? I know the answer of course, it's an attempt to try and belittle anyone who's studied the facts and produces an opinion that differs from your own. It's a bit silly isn't it?
Not silly , have experienced like many the advice of people who,s studied the facts , often results in disaster . Wise not to rely too much on these experts . weather you are an IN or OUTER .
This is about the daftest comment I've seen on this thread yet and that's saying something! Then again, like your messiah Farage said the other day, "I think the experts have got it wrong on smoking". ::)
Now that is silly Max , can you name an expert who never got it wrong ? Then again you appear vulnerable to incorrect assertions . Voted tory more times than you , never voted labour and looks as though I ever will .
On this thread I have panned leaders of all political parties , and all Brexit and Withdraw teams front lines .
Farage , Camerron , Corbyn ,Boris, IDS etc , men with little more integrity than the gravy train mob at Brussels .
I,ve had enough of EU vote today , spent morning playing golf with a former senior union official sulking at the outcome .
Then in the car park was confronted by a none British golfer rejoicing in the outcome .
Sorry everyone can,t be pleased .
Tell you the same as I told the golfer maybe you side came second because they were beaten by slightly better liar,s .
Got to live with it and get on with our lives , Provided pay is cut or pegged at the present level every thing will turn out fine . Dare,nt tell my ex-union colleague that !!!
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The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!
In 2016 a civil war commenced on Pilgrim Patter based on lies by politicians and speculation from "experts " :)
Why do you keep putting experts in inverted commas? I know the answer of course, it's an attempt to try and belittle anyone who's studied the facts and produces an opinion that differs from your own. It's a bit silly isn't it?
Not silly , have experienced like many the advice of people who,s studied the facts , often results in disaster . Wise not to rely too much on these experts . weather you are an IN or OUTER .
This is about the daftest comment I've seen on this thread yet and that's saying something! Then again, like your messiah Farage said the other day, "I think the experts have got it wrong on smoking". ::)
Now that is silly Max , can you name an expert who never got it wrong ? Then again you appear vulnerable to incorrect assertions . Voted tory more times than you , never voted labour and looks as though I ever will .
On this thread I have panned leaders of all political parties , and all Brexit and Withdraw teams front lines .
Farage , Camerron , Corbyn ,Boris, IDS etc , men with little more integrity than the gravy train mob at Brussels .
I,ve had enough of EU vote today , spent morning playing golf with a former senior union official sulking at the outcome .
Then in the car park was confronted by a none British golfer rejoicing in the outcome .
Sorry everyone can,t be pleased .
Tell you the same as I told the golfer maybe you side came second because they were beaten by slightly better liar,s .
Got to live with it and get on with our lives , Provided pay is cut or pegged at the present level every thing will turn out fine . Dare,nt tell my ex-union colleague that !!!
I think I made it clear that all experts are fallible, of course they are. However, you can't just dismiss them simply for being "experts". Working on that assumption we may as well do everything off the hoof. If you feel an expert has said something which is incorrect or disingenuous, simply provide a credible explanation as to why. You can't very well scold me though for claiming I said all experts are infallible when you are claiming the opposite!
When it comes to being vulnerable to incorrect assertions, all I'd say is take a look at those who led the leave campaign tripping over each other to disown all the claims they made pre referendum. Leave voters bought all that hook line and sinker. Don't you feel just a little bit angry about that?
I'm glad you enjoyed your game of golf, but you don't need to worry, I've accepted the result. I just think it's important to hold these politicians to account and point out that they lied to us all. That's now very obvious, along with the fact that they never had a plan.
-
The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!
In 2016 a civil war commenced on Pilgrim Patter based on lies by politicians and speculation from "experts " :)
Why do you keep putting experts in inverted commas? I know the answer of course, it's an attempt to try and belittle anyone who's studied the facts and produces an opinion that differs from your own. It's a bit silly isn't it?
Not silly , have experienced like many the advice of people who,s studied the facts , often results in disaster . Wise not to rely too much on these experts . weather you are an IN or OUTER .
This is about the daftest comment I've seen on this thread yet and that's saying something! Then again, like your messiah Farage said the other day, "I think the experts have got it wrong on smoking". ::)
Now that is silly Max , can you name an expert who never got it wrong ? Then again you appear vulnerable to incorrect assertions . Voted tory more times than you , never voted labour and looks as though I ever will .
On this thread I have panned leaders of all political parties , and all Brexit and Withdraw teams front lines .
Farage , Camerron , Corbyn ,Boris, IDS etc , men with little more integrity than the gravy train mob at Brussels .
I,ve had enough of EU vote today , spent morning playing golf with a former senior union official sulking at the outcome .
Then in the car park was confronted by a none British golfer rejoicing in the outcome .
Sorry everyone can,t be pleased .
Tell you the same as I told the golfer maybe you side came second because they were beaten by slightly better liar,s .
Got to live with it and get on with our lives , Provided pay is cut or pegged at the present level every thing will turn out fine . Dare,nt tell my ex-union colleague that !!!
I think I made it clear that all experts are fallible, of course they are. However, you can't just dismiss them simply for being "experts". Working on that assumption we may as well do everything off the hoof. If you feel an expert has said something which is incorrect or disingenuous, simply provide a credible explanation as to why. You can't very well scold me though for claiming I said all experts are infallible when you are claiming the opposite!
When it comes to being vulnerable to incorrect assertions, all I'd say is take a look at those who led the leave campaign tripping over each other to disown all the claims they made pre referendum. Leave voters bought all that hook line and sinker. Don't you feel just a little bit angry about that?
I'm glad you enjoyed your game of golf, but you don't need to worry, I've accepted the result. I just think it's important to hold these politicians to account and point out that they lied to us all. That's now very obvious, along with the fact that they never had a plan.
I stated both sides were liars Max , I think your right many voters fell for these lies . But I would not make the assertion that one side gained more votes than the other this way , I would hope these votes where evenly spread .Shame there was not a more emphatic outcome ,
near enough a 0-0 draw but no shoot-outs in this game .
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The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!
In 2016 a civil war commenced on Pilgrim Patter based on lies by politicians and speculation from "experts " :)
Why do you keep putting experts in inverted commas? I know the answer of course, it's an attempt to try and belittle anyone who's studied the facts and produces an opinion that differs from your own. It's a bit silly isn't it?
Not silly , have experienced like many the advice of people who,s studied the facts , often results in disaster . Wise not to rely too much on these experts . weather you are an IN or OUTER .
This is about the daftest comment I've seen on this thread yet and that's saying something! Then again, like your messiah Farage said the other day, "I think the experts have got it wrong on smoking". ::)
Now that is silly Max , can you name an expert who never got it wrong ? Then again you appear vulnerable to incorrect assertions . Voted tory more times than you , never voted labour and looks as though I ever will .
On this thread I have panned leaders of all political parties , and all Brexit and Withdraw teams front lines .
Farage , Camerron , Corbyn ,Boris, IDS etc , men with little more integrity than the gravy train mob at Brussels .
I,ve had enough of EU vote today , spent morning playing golf with a former senior union official sulking at the outcome .
Then in the car park was confronted by a none British golfer rejoicing in the outcome .
Sorry everyone can,t be pleased .
Tell you the same as I told the golfer maybe you side came second because they were beaten by slightly better liar,s .
Got to live with it and get on with our lives , Provided pay is cut or pegged at the present level every thing will turn out fine . Dare,nt tell my ex-union colleague that !!!
I think I made it clear that all experts are fallible, of course they are. However, you can't just dismiss them simply for being "experts". Working on that assumption we may as well do everything off the hoof. If you feel an expert has said something which is incorrect or disingenuous, simply provide a credible explanation as to why. You can't very well scold me though for claiming I said all experts are infallible when you are claiming the opposite!
When it comes to being vulnerable to incorrect assertions, all I'd say is take a look at those who led the leave campaign tripping over each other to disown all the claims they made pre referendum. Leave voters bought all that hook line and sinker. Don't you feel just a little bit angry about that?
I'm glad you enjoyed your game of golf, but you don't need to worry, I've accepted the result. I just think it's important to hold these politicians to account and point out that they lied to us all. That's now very obvious, along with the fact that they never had a plan.
I stated both sides were liars Max , I think your right many voters fell for these lies . But I would not make the assertion that one side gained more votes than the other this way , I would hope these votes where evenly spread .Shame there was not a more emphatic outcome ,
near enough a 0-0 draw but no shoot-outs in this game .
I certainly take your point, there was stuff that the remain side said that I didn't think was credible either. That's why I stopped listening to politicians. But there were credible sources of info out there (some may call them "experts") who were providing information which has since proven to be correct.
I think it's a dangerous step for society if we simply dismiss all expert opinion. That leaves us in the hands of the demogogues. For me, that was what was most concerning about the leave campaign. They realised early on that normal rational debate wasn't cutting it, so they simply pumped out a load of completely false claims and tapped into primal fears. I think we really should hold anyone proven to have done that to account. I welcome welcome anyone providing evidence of that from the remain side too. George Osbornes emergency budget was a good example of that.
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I've just thought of something else from the era of television expansion in the sixties, and the prophetic words of Millicent Martin:
That was the week that was. It's over. Let it go!
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I've just thought of something else from the era of television expansion in the sixties, and the prophetic words of Millicent Martin:
That was the week that was. It's over. Let it go!
The trouble is, it's precient because these people are now in charge.
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Anyone remember Franz Buitelaar? He exported £1 million worth of cattle every day.
My Granddad worked there. As far as I remember, he loved it.
I worked for him for 6 years, and the daily export value was never anywhere near the heights you quote. More like £1m every 3 months. Top bloke. Sadly no longer, the big c.
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I suppose all the remain voters who have been posting on here will want a rerun of the England Iceland match now as its not gone how they want it to finish.
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The answer to Dipodah's original query appears to be 'out'. :dan
Is this the longest ever thread on Patter Ken?
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I suppose all the remain voters who have been posting on here will want a rerun of the England Iceland match now as its not gone how they want it to finish.
Obviously! The British people were completely misled about the quality of our team! It's a disgrace! And it's obviously the fault of Corbyn as he didn't campaign hard enough for a England win.
(Jokes)
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What is fast developing as a matter of concern to me is the type of out that we are about to get. As I see it , we may be offered 1) just a bit out - we didn't really mean it, 2) not really out - give us all the perks, 3) please don't let us leave - find a way to stop it, and 4) ever so sorry - we didn't mean it and it's time for us to adopt the euro.
I voted for out. Out means out. we really need to sever all ties and start again. It will soon become clear which matters are of mutual benefit to us and the Eu, and where it is not obvious, we need to take a step back and look at our global position. Whatever the future, I am convinced that the politicians are planning to sell us down the river, and I fear that the river may be the Styx.
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What is fast developing as a matter of concern to me is the type of out that we are about to get. As I see it , we may be offered 1) just a bit out - we didn't really mean it, 2) not really out - give us all the perks, 3) please don't let us leave - find a way to stop it, and 4) ever so sorry - we didn't mean it and it's time for us to adopt the euro.
I voted for out. Out means out. we really need to sever all ties and start again. It will soon become clear which matters are of mutual benefit to us and the Eu, and where it is not obvious, we need to take a step back and look at our global position. Whatever the future, I am convinced that the politicians are planning to sell us down the river, and I fear that the river may be the Styx.
It really depends on the new PM, and what deal he/she gets from the EU. Jeremy Hunt has already intimated today he will seek to retain freedom of movement within the EEA. Boris, after his shambles of a column yesterday in which he suggested he could retain EEA membership AND bring in a points system (impossible) has today backtracked and said, no, he will definitely curtail freedom of movement. This will mean quitting the single market, which means we'll need to negotiate a separate trade deal with the EU. It is evident that this will be nowhere near as good as the deal we have now, but we will at least be free to then negotiate trade deals with non-EU countries as a sovereign nation. These normally take at least five years, so once you've factored in the two year negotiation period when we'll still be part of the EU, the earliest we will start experiencing the full benefits - if there are any - of the freedom Brexit affords us will be sometime after 2023. I'd say a more realistic target is 2025 and beyond.
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i was surprised at Farage getting some supportive applause before going into rude/smug mode and getting jeered at.
i recall it being at the point where he suggested others may leave..(the applause not the jeering)
............possibly a load of old tosh...................
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12018877/The-truth-how-a-secretive-elite-created-the-EU-to-build-a-world-government.html
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What is fast developing as a matter of concern to me is the type of out that we are about to get. As I see it , we may be offered 1) just a bit out - we didn't really mean it, 2) not really out - give us all the perks, 3) please don't let us leave - find a way to stop it, and 4) ever so sorry - we didn't mean it and it's time for us to adopt the euro.
I voted for out. Out means out. we really need to sever all ties and start again. It will soon become clear which matters are of mutual benefit to us and the Eu, and where it is not obvious, we need to take a step back and look at our global position. Whatever the future, I am convinced that the politicians are planning to sell us down the river, and I fear that the river may be the Styx.
It really depends on the new PM, and what deal he/she gets from the EU. Jeremy Hunt has already intimated today he will seek to retain freedom of movement within the EEA. Boris, after his shambles of a column yesterday in which he suggested he could retain EEA membership AND bring in a points system (impossible) has today backtracked and said, no, he will definitely curtail freedom of movement. This will mean quitting the single market, which means we'll need to negotiate a separate trade deal with the EU. It is evident that this will be nowhere near as good as the deal we have now, but we will at least be free to then negotiate trade deals with non-EU countries as a sovereign nation. These normally take at least five years, so once you've factored in the two year negotiation period when we'll still be part of the EU, the earliest we will start experiencing the full benefits - if there are any - of the freedom Brexit affords us will be sometime after 2023. I'd say a more realistic target is 2025 and beyond.
I don't think there's any way in which we will leave the Common market - it would be complete economic meltdown. Any Tory PM will surely listen to the City which will be holding a gun to his or her head.
There probably is scope for the 'Norway plus' deal - with some very minor restrictions on freedom of movement. But that's still essentially a crap version of EU membership. To be honest, I think the next PM and the EU will probably end up hammering a deal which keeps us in. The EU has a history of second referendums, and both sides have a huge amount to gain compared to the current state of the world. The EU will need to weigh up the fact that striking such a deal might encourage flouncing by other countries - but that not striking one means losing their strongest military power and 2nd largest economy. I think the latter concern might win out. Maybe I'm being deliriously optimistic because the alternative is so hopeless...
These articles in the FT (https://next.ft.com/content/8f2aca88-3c51-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a) and Indie (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-wont-really-happen-second-referendum-markets-value-housing-pound-a7106996.html) make the argument better than I do.
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If we settle for a Norway style deal, then we have wasted our time. That's just a begging bowl. If we are serious we must stand on our own feet. That may be tough for a while , but it will not be the first time that we have stood alone and taken it on the chin. Or maybe the present generation is not made of what it takes.
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What is fast developing as a matter of concern to me is the type of out that we are about to get. As I see it , we may be offered 1) just a bit out - we didn't really mean it, 2) not really out - give us all the perks, 3) please don't let us leave - find a way to stop it, and 4) ever so sorry - we didn't mean it and it's time for us to adopt the euro.
I voted for out. Out means out. we really need to sever all ties and start again. It will soon become clear which matters are of mutual benefit to us and the Eu, and where it is not obvious, we need to take a step back and look at our global position. Whatever the future, I am convinced that the politicians are planning to sell us down the river, and I fear that the river may be the Styx.
It really depends on the new PM, and what deal he/she gets from the EU. Jeremy Hunt has already intimated today he will seek to retain freedom of movement within the EEA. Boris, after his shambles of a column yesterday in which he suggested he could retain EEA membership AND bring in a points system (impossible) has today backtracked and said, no, he will definitely curtail freedom of movement. This will mean quitting the single market, which means we'll need to negotiate a separate trade deal with the EU. It is evident that this will be nowhere near as good as the deal we have now, but we will at least be free to then negotiate trade deals with non-EU countries as a sovereign nation. These normally take at least five years, so once you've factored in the two year negotiation period when we'll still be part of the EU, the earliest we will start experiencing the full benefits - if there are any - of the freedom Brexit affords us will be sometime after 2023. I'd say a more realistic target is 2025 and beyond.
I don't think there's any way in which we will leave the Common market - it would be complete economic meltdown. Any Tory PM will surely listen to the City which will be holding a gun to his or her head.
There probably is scope for the 'Norway plus' deal - with some very minor restrictions on freedom of movement. But that's still essentially a crap version of EU membership. To be honest, I think the next PM and the EU will probably end up hammering a deal which keeps us in. The EU has a history of second referendums, and both sides have a huge amount to gain compared to the current state of the world. The EU will need to weigh up the fact that striking such a deal might encourage flouncing by other countries - but that not striking one means losing their strongest military power and 2nd largest economy. I think the latter concern might win out. Maybe I'm being deliriously optimistic because the alternative is so hopeless...
These articles in the FT (https://next.ft.com/content/8f2aca88-3c51-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a) and Indie (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-wont-really-happen-second-referendum-markets-value-housing-pound-a7106996.html) make the argument better than I do.
Adam .
A reminder that you have overlooked responding to my question to you on a previous post .
My questions on previous posts requesting you to elaborate on your Brexit effect comments on pensionsers.
Also your suggestion on state pension cut, how do you suggest this is done and on what scale .?
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What is fast developing as a matter of concern to me is the type of out that we are about to get. As I see it , we may be offered 1) just a bit out - we didn't really mean it, 2) not really out - give us all the perks, 3) please don't let us leave - find a way to stop it, and 4) ever so sorry - we didn't mean it and it's time for us to adopt the euro.
I voted for out. Out means out. we really need to sever all ties and start again. It will soon become clear which matters are of mutual benefit to us and the Eu, and where it is not obvious, we need to take a step back and look at our global position. Whatever the future, I am convinced that the politicians are planning to sell us down the river, and I fear that the river may be the Styx.
It really depends on the new PM, and what deal he/she gets from the EU. Jeremy Hunt has already intimated today he will seek to retain freedom of movement within the EEA. Boris, after his shambles of a column yesterday in which he suggested he could retain EEA membership AND bring in a points system (impossible) has today backtracked and said, no, he will definitely curtail freedom of movement. This will mean quitting the single market, which means we'll need to negotiate a separate trade deal with the EU. It is evident that this will be nowhere near as good as the deal we have now, but we will at least be free to then negotiate trade deals with non-EU countries as a sovereign nation. These normally take at least five years, so once you've factored in the two year negotiation period when we'll still be part of the EU, the earliest we will start experiencing the full benefits - if there are any - of the freedom Brexit affords us will be sometime after 2023. I'd say a more realistic target is 2025 and beyond.
I don't think there's any way in which we will leave the Common market - it would be complete economic meltdown. Any Tory PM will surely listen to the City which will be holding a gun to his or her head.
There probably is scope for the 'Norway plus' deal - with some very minor restrictions on freedom of movement. But that's still essentially a crap version of EU membership. To be honest, I think the next PM and the EU will probably end up hammering a deal which keeps us in. The EU has a history of second referendums, and both sides have a huge amount to gain compared to the current state of the world. The EU will need to weigh up the fact that striking such a deal might encourage flouncing by other countries - but that not striking one means losing their strongest military power and 2nd largest economy. I think the latter concern might win out. Maybe I'm being deliriously optimistic because the alternative is so hopeless...
These articles in the FT (https://next.ft.com/content/8f2aca88-3c51-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a) and Indie (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-wont-really-happen-second-referendum-markets-value-housing-pound-a7106996.html) make the argument better than I do.
Adam .
A reminder that you have overlooked responding to my question to you on a previous post .
My questions on previous posts requesting you to elaborate on your Brexit effect comments on pensionsers.
Also your suggestion on state pension cut, how do you suggest this is done and on what scale .?
Recessions don't affect pensioners in the same way because you can't be made redundant from an annuity.
I'm not sure - much like the average Brexiteer I haven't thought the idea through very much. How about in proportion to how much HMRC's tax receipts fall in the recession we're about to see? So if the tax take falls 5%, pensions fall 5%. Fair?
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What is fast developing as a matter of concern to me is the type of out that we are about to get. As I see it , we may be offered 1) just a bit out - we didn't really mean it, 2) not really out - give us all the perks, 3) please don't let us leave - find a way to stop it, and 4) ever so sorry - we didn't mean it and it's time for us to adopt the euro.
I voted for out. Out means out. we really need to sever all ties and start again. It will soon become clear which matters are of mutual benefit to us and the Eu, and where it is not obvious, we need to take a step back and look at our global position. Whatever the future, I am convinced that the politicians are planning to sell us down the river, and I fear that the river may be the Styx.
It really depends on the new PM, and what deal he/she gets from the EU. Jeremy Hunt has already intimated today he will seek to retain freedom of movement within the EEA. Boris, after his shambles of a column yesterday in which he suggested he could retain EEA membership AND bring in a points system (impossible) has today backtracked and said, no, he will definitely curtail freedom of movement. This will mean quitting the single market, which means we'll need to negotiate a separate trade deal with the EU. It is evident that this will be nowhere near as good as the deal we have now, but we will at least be free to then negotiate trade deals with non-EU countries as a sovereign nation. These normally take at least five years, so once you've factored in the two year negotiation period when we'll still be part of the EU, the earliest we will start experiencing the full benefits - if there are any - of the freedom Brexit affords us will be sometime after 2023. I'd say a more realistic target is 2025 and beyond.
I don't think there's any way in which we will leave the Common market - it would be complete economic meltdown. Any Tory PM will surely listen to the City which will be holding a gun to his or her head.
There probably is scope for the 'Norway plus' deal - with some very minor restrictions on freedom of movement. But that's still essentially a crap version of EU membership. To be honest, I think the next PM and the EU will probably end up hammering a deal which keeps us in. The EU has a history of second referendums, and both sides have a huge amount to gain compared to the current state of the world. The EU will need to weigh up the fact that striking such a deal might encourage flouncing by other countries - but that not striking one means losing their strongest military power and 2nd largest economy. I think the latter concern might win out. Maybe I'm being deliriously optimistic because the alternative is so hopeless...
These articles in the FT (https://next.ft.com/content/8f2aca88-3c51-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a) and Indie (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-wont-really-happen-second-referendum-markets-value-housing-pound-a7106996.html) make the argument better than I do.
Adam .
A reminder that you have overlooked responding to my question to you on a previous post .
My questions on previous posts requesting you to elaborate on your Brexit effect comments on pensionsers.
Also your suggestion on state pension cut, how do you suggest this is done and on what scale .?
Recessions don't affect pensioners in the same way because you can't be made redundant from an annuity.
I'm not sure - much like the average Brexiteer I haven't thought the idea through very much. How about in proportion to how much HMRC's tax receipts fall in the recession we're about to see? So if the tax take falls 5%, pensions fall 5%. Fair?
Yes it's fair if it is done across the board 5% cut for all, including Bankers, Politicians, students, ordinary working families and people on benefits.
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If we settle for a Norway style deal, then we have wasted our time. That's just a begging bowl. If we are serious we must stand on our own feet. That may be tough for a while , but it will not be the first time that we have stood alone and taken it on the chin. Or maybe the present generation is not made of what it takes.
Yes, we will have wasted our time. That's why people who supported remain but accept the democratic will of the people (like me) are still bloody furious.
Look, it's quite simple: if we remain in the EEA with minor concessions on free movement, we'll basically be back to exactly where we were this time last week when we had a deal to stop EU nationals claiming benefits until they'd worked here for four years. That deal is immediately void, by the way, so unskilled migrants can move over tomorrow and fill their boots for the next two and a bit years while we're still in the EU.
There's a decent chance no concessions will be granted, so we'll have to quit the EEA to avoid a democratic crisis and the ensuing civil unrest.
If we quit the EEA, we then have to negotiate a trade deal with the single market - which trades as a whole bloc, remember - and those terms will not be as good as those we enjoy now. I'm still hopeful a cordial agreement can be reached to minimise how bad the terms are, but they will still be poorer than now.
I'm still baffled as to why anyone thinks any of this is a good idea, but hey ho - we are where we are. Let's try and make the best of this absolute bloody shambles and hope the next PM is able to assemble a VERY good negotiating team. Is David Newton available?
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If we settle for a Norway style deal, then we have wasted our time. That's just a begging bowl. If we are serious we must stand on our own feet. That may be tough for a while , but it will not be the first time that we have stood alone and taken it on the chin. Or maybe the present generation is not made of what it takes.
Speaking as a relatively young person, I find your comment a little bit offensive. It’s not some re-run of the battle of Britain, it’s my life. I’ve got a large mortgage, bills to pay and kids to feed. For me the economic arguments are/were the key things to consider. In my industry, we deal with the common market on a daily basis. I haven’t worked anywhere where we don’t do regular business with companies that operate within the EU. So I can see a direct threat to my career prospects and my industry in leaving. I have worked for very big companies, but for the most part I’ve worked in small to medium firms where the impact will be significant.
My line on this has been consistent throughout the pages of this thread. I have been happy to acknowledge that leaving could be a huge success, however, it is risky and a jump into the dark. It’s undoubtedly going to cause massive upheaval and as pointed out by others, new trade deals will take many years to negotiate. The world economy is still fragile, we are essentially going through an economic depression. For me the risks of another recession are too great and I think the potential threats of financial hardship outweigh the as yet unspecified benefits.
You have mentioned that you are retired, therefore your circumstances are completely different to mine. For instance I assume you won’t be worried about paying the mortgage or losing your job and don’t have young children who are dependent on you. To try and compare this to the sacrifices made by my grandfather’s generation is both pointless and unfair. We are facing a completely different set of circumstances and certainly not facing an existential threat by remaining.
The negotiations we are now seeing and the different options we are faced with should come as absolutely no surprise to anyone. Countless posts on this very thread from myself and others pointed out the only realistic options open to us if we voted leave and so it has been proven. You were always going to be sold down the river by the politicians, because they campaigned on promises that were unrealistic and the consequences were completely predictable. There was no clear plan spelled out by the leave side and it is now obvious that is because they never had one.
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As I have pointed before, long term inward investment is the big worry. This article discusses the Nissain plant in Sunderland which I mentioned in a previous post. Working in this industry I know how competitive investment in the manufacturing sector is. Many large multinationals would be only to happy to move their manufacturing facilities into other low wage areas within the EU in the long term. It can be a real battle to get them to invest in the UK sometimes.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/900d015a-3ba2-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a.html#axzz4Cy6ARVec
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The Sunderland vote was a real big surprise. ...
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What is fast developing as a matter of concern to me is the type of out that we are about to get. As I see it , we may be offered 1) just a bit out - we didn't really mean it, 2) not really out - give us all the perks, 3) please don't let us leave - find a way to stop it, and 4) ever so sorry - we didn't mean it and it's time for us to adopt the euro.
I voted for out. Out means out. we really need to sever all ties and start again. It will soon become clear which matters are of mutual benefit to us and the Eu, and where it is not obvious, we need to take a step back and look at our global position. Whatever the future, I am convinced that the politicians are planning to sell us down the river, and I fear that the river may be the Styx.
It really depends on the new PM, and what deal he/she gets from the EU. Jeremy Hunt has already intimated today he will seek to retain freedom of movement within the EEA. Boris, after his shambles of a column yesterday in which he suggested he could retain EEA membership AND bring in a points system (impossible) has today backtracked and said, no, he will definitely curtail freedom of movement. This will mean quitting the single market, which means we'll need to negotiate a separate trade deal with the EU. It is evident that this will be nowhere near as good as the deal we have now, but we will at least be free to then negotiate trade deals with non-EU countries as a sovereign nation. These normally take at least five years, so once you've factored in the two year negotiation period when we'll still be part of the EU, the earliest we will start experiencing the full benefits - if there are any - of the freedom Brexit affords us will be sometime after 2023. I'd say a more realistic target is 2025 and beyond.
I don't think there's any way in which we will leave the Common market - it would be complete economic meltdown. Any Tory PM will surely listen to the City which will be holding a gun to his or her head.
There probably is scope for the 'Norway plus' deal - with some very minor restrictions on freedom of movement. But that's still essentially a crap version of EU membership. To be honest, I think the next PM and the EU will probably end up hammering a deal which keeps us in. The EU has a history of second referendums, and both sides have a huge amount to gain compared to the current state of the world. The EU will need to weigh up the fact that striking such a deal might encourage flouncing by other countries - but that not striking one means losing their strongest military power and 2nd largest economy. I think the latter concern might win out. Maybe I'm being deliriously optimistic because the alternative is so hopeless...
These articles in the FT (https://next.ft.com/content/8f2aca88-3c51-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a) and Indie (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-wont-really-happen-second-referendum-markets-value-housing-pound-a7106996.html) make the argument better than I do.
Adam .
A reminder that you have overlooked responding to my question to you on a previous post .
My questions on previous posts requesting you to elaborate on your Brexit effect comments on pensionsers.
Also your suggestion on state pension cut, how do you suggest this is done and on what scale .?
Recessions don't affect pensioners in the same way because you can't be made redundant from an annuity.
I'm not sure - much like the average Brexiteer I haven't thought the idea through very much. How about in proportion to how much HMRC's tax receipts fall in the recession we're about to see? So if the tax take falls 5%, pensions fall 5%. Fair?
Thats why I asked for a response Adam , to me it was apparent this was the case .
Does than mean you have not though any of your statements through ?
Without stopping to think I can give a definitive response to your replies ,
1 . If Stephen Crapp becomes PM you will not get a call from Works and Pensions to replace him .
2 Lets get building more food banks ready for the pensioners .
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Knock on door last night , neighbour with prezzies back from their fortnights holiday .
Temp 35 c in Lithuania !!!! . Anyone tried Lithuanian chocolate ?
Think they fixed the holiday at a great time .
When asked what was their take on the Brexit vote response was a relaxed " nothing will change " .
No self inflicted stress like us posters on this thread
Dipohdoh has a lot to answer for ???
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For those of you who like a conspiracy theory....this is a biggy!
Kalergi theory
Makes the Kennedy one look like child's play
Throw in the fact we are being sprayed by planes. ...we're doomed (this is another conspiracy theory)
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For those of you who like a conspiracy theory....this is a biggy!
Kalergi theory
Makes the Kennedy one look like child's play
Throw in the fact we are being sprayed by planes. ...we're doomed (this is another conspiracy theory)
I love a good conspiracy theory :dan
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For those of you who like a conspiracy theory....this is a biggy!
Kalergi theory
Makes the Kennedy one look like child's play
Throw in the fact we are being sprayed by planes. ...we're doomed (this is another conspiracy theory)
I love a good conspiracy theory :dan
Agenda 21?
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Looking at the kalergi plan and the way the monstrosity that is the eu is being run, conspiracy theory or not they seem to be implementing the plan pretty well. (Well that is until we Brits came along and put a serious dent into it), know wonder Junker and co are fuming.
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Confirmed today by the leading candidates for the Tory leadership that they won't trigger article 50 this year, so the very earliest we could be out of the EU is 2019.
Until then, it's business as usual (well, ish)...
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Pete....
What do you think might be a good outcome?
Here's a wild one..can't see it happening...but what if T May gets the gig and we stay in till 2019.
In the interim the eu thing is renegotiated (it becomes a Common Market again..nothing more)
We then have a second referendum and decide to stay in.....
Happy clapper eurostyle :)
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Pete....
What do you think might be a good outcome?
Here's a wild one..can't see it happening...but what if T May gets the gig and we stay in till 2019.
In the interim the eu thing is renegotiated (it becomes a Common Market again..nothing more)
We then have a second referendum and decide to stay in.....
Happy clapper eurostyle :)
Well, the way things have gone over the last week I don't think you can count anything out!
However, if I had to guess right now, I suspect there'll be some kind of compromise reached that fails to fully satisfy either side: my guess is we'll be out the EU as the referendum result dictates, but remain in the single market with SOME curtailment of freedom of movement (but not the full lock-down of our borders many were voting for). I think only now, as people start to look at just how integrated we are with Europe, are we beginning to realise a full "Brexit" isn't technically achievable. Instead, there are simply varying levels of 'uncoupling' available.
And because of that, I simply don't believe a word Gove says. While I do think the Tories will make efforts to stop completely free movement, this absolute nonsense about an Australian points system will NEVER happen, mainly because it will be prohibitively expensive to administer.
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Pete....
What do you think might be a good outcome?
Here's a wild one..can't see it happening...but what if T May gets the gig and we stay in till 2019.
In the interim the eu thing is renegotiated (it becomes a Common Market again..nothing more)
We then have a second referendum and decide to stay in.....
Happy clapper eurostyle :)
Well, the way things have gone over the last week I don't think you can count anything out!
However, if I had to guess right now, I suspect there'll be some kind of compromise reached that fails to fully satisfy either side: my guess is we'll be out the EU as the referendum result dictates, but remain in the single market with SOME curtailment of freedom of movement (but not the full lock-down of our borders many were voting for). I think only now, as people start to look at just how integrated we are with Europe, are we beginning to realise a full "Brexit" isn't technically achievable. Instead, there are simply varying levels of 'uncoupling' available.
And because of that, I simply don't believe a word Gove says. While I do think the Tories will make efforts to stop completely free movement, this absolute nonsense about an Australian points system will NEVER happen, mainly because it will be prohibitively expensive to administer.
I think thats the best assessment as we have had on here .
Ultimately both EU and the UK will claim to be the winners in an attempt save face .
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Nigel has gone, job done.
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Mishcon de Reya are set to mount a legal challenge to prevent Article 50 being invoked without a vote in parliament, looks like we will have to fight for our Brexit ???
We had a Senior Civil Servant visiting us last weekend and she confirmed my suspicions that this was always supposed to be an in/in referendum. No plans were made for a leave vote, so they are playing catch up now and it is 'chaotic'.
Apparently one plan is to delay Article 50 as long as possible in the hope that, in the meantime, the economy bombs to such an extent that the general public are begging to reverse the vote. Mark Carney will be making regular reports to aid in this process, and expect the threatened 'emergency budget' to reappear on the agenda before the years end.
If all this is successful then it will be put to the vote in parliament.
Theresa May might be saying that Brexit means Brexit, but she knows what is going on. Politically she is expendable if it all goes tits up, so she is just doing a job, possibly the only contingency plan that they put in place, and one made much easier once Boris was out of the running. :police:
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Talking to a shrewd old business man ( true blue ) before the vote. He told me that even if the brexit vote wins, we will still be in the EU. He said we will go back renegotiate and a new deal put to the people. >:(
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May now PM, we are doomed ???
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Well after all the doom and gloom of Brexit yesterday's FT index finished on an eleven month high. Explain that ???
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That's because of the weak pound, apparently. There are a few articles floating about that explain the relationship.
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Well after all the doom and gloom of Brexit yesterday's FT index finished on an eleven month high. Explain that ???
Speculation on an interest rate cut, plus back in February it dropped significantly as fears over the Chinese economy surfaced so its position is better to be reviewed over a greater period of time.
From a personal perspective I have seen all UK based roles either pulled or moved (which is also reflected in the wider market; http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-job-vacancies-fall-700000-in-the-week-after-brexit-data-shows-a7124686.html) for the company I work for, not ideal when I'm facing possible redundancy - directly linked to the Oil/Gas downturn and also pushing manufacturing to either Germany, Italy, Brazil or Asia off the back of Brexit fears, long before the actual vote.
Over 2,000 engineers (highly skilled professionals) down to 1,200 at the Leeds plant in the last 18 months, expected now to drop to 800 by the end of the year. Giving those guys a Union flag and saying 'we have our country back' does not really cheer them up. No idea why.
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Well after all the doom and gloom of Brexit yesterday's FT index finished on an eleven month high. Explain that ???
Because 'Helicopter Money' is coming.
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Well after all the doom and gloom of Brexit yesterday's FT index finished on an eleven month high. Explain that ???
Because 'Helicopter Money' is coming.
Do I get any? ;)
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Well after all the doom and gloom of Brexit yesterday's FT index finished on an eleven month high. Explain that ???
Because 'Helicopter Money' is coming.
Do I get any? ;)
I guess it'll be distributed as a tax rebate to everybody at first. It'll be happening in Japan before the end of the year, we'll only be a year or so behind. While this as nothing to do with Brexit, it's the reason the stock market is rising.
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I'm beginning to like our new PM. She's only been in the job a few hours and she's already got rid of DECC and set up the holy Brexit Trinity of Davies, Fox, and Boris, as well as sacking Osbourne and Gove...a decent start :police:
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I'm beginning to like our new PM. She's only been in the job a few hours and she's already got rid of DECC and set up the holy Brexit Trinity of Davies, Fox, and Boris, as well as sacking Osbourne and Gove...a decent start :police:
Too much like Thatcher for my liking, but let's give her a chance, she is making all the right noises. ;D
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Got to feel sorry for all the families stuck in traffic trying to get to France.
French Border control stopping and searching most cars.
Is this a sign of things to come? I know the same happens between Spain and Gibraltar and that is with an open border policy.
Or is it a knee jerk reaction to what's happened in Nice and Germany?
But stuck on a motorway for nearly two days with a couple of kids in sweltering heat does not sound like fun to me.
Play safe and holiday at Skeg, I say. :bunny
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I see the base rate is now 0.25%.
Economy is slowing down post Brexit,
Waiting now for qwerty's helicopter money ;)
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Pre Brexit vote REMAIN prediction, Sky high unemployment, Shares on London stock exchange CRASH, The pound, massive devaluation against major currencies. Sky high inflation and companies leaving Britain in droves.
Two months further on, in reality:
Unemployment at it's lowest level in 8 years.
Shares at their highest level in 18 months.
The Pound down, but only 10% against the Euro ( meaning cheaper and more competitive exports )
Inflation at 0.26% ( Sky high ? )
Name a major Company that has left GB?
Now we want to stop pussy footing about, and follow the peoples directive and LEAVE.
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Was facing redundancy (oil and gas industry) now confirmed as orders are moved to other plants in the EU, South America and Asia (along with approx. 500 other engineers in Leeds).
All other internal roles were moved the day after the vote to non-UK locations as there is no certainty of what the economic, trade and working relationships will be with the other global locations. So immediately removing options to stay with the business without overseas relocation. I also know of this happening with a friends company so not an isolated case.
Since the start of the year I've been looking at external roles, I can tell you with certainty (and is backed up more widely - http://goo.gl/tc2sVn) that there are significantly less roles available to me to apply.
The significant increase in racist and xenophobic abuse/attacks (http://goo.gl/h3mASF) is a direct consequence of the vote which had empowered those with hate to act. I've witnessed two incidents on public transport since the vote, never seen one prior.
The building trade is even more on its arse as a direct reflection of the uncertainty (http://goo.gl/lC5pZo) pushing house prices up and meaning those of us lucky enough to be on the ladder have in effect put two fingers up to those not able to afford it and probably never will.
On the other hand this £350m for the NHS has been well spent so far, likewise the right wing government now in place has already put through an increase in the maximum tuition fees (so again two fingers to the youth, we are all right jack!) along with plans to abolish the Human Right Act applying to the UK (http://goo.gl/cIyZin)!
I'd say we are in a worse position, I'd also say bring on the shit storm that will be post-Article 50 and the increase in food/energy/transport costs as we move to WTO rules because we won't get our way (as was always said!) with membership to the EEC and 'control' immigration. (http://goo.gl/4TpdHx)
I'm fecked right off with the resignation of those who should be holding Leave promoters to account, I'm fecked right off with the 'you can't blame Brexit' rubbish from the same people that blame getting a runny nose on the EU, I'm fecked right off that my kids will have LESS choice and opportunity in the world than I did to work/live as they grow up and I'm proper fecked off with the seeming collapse of any competent political system.
So yeah two months on, not a lot, much more to come so let's rub our hands with glee as we have TAKEN BACK CONTROL!
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Seconded, GTFO! :dan
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I'm fecked right off with the resignation of those who should be holding Leave promoters to account, I'm fecked right off with the 'you can't blame Brexit' rubbish from the same people that blame getting a runny nose on the EU, I'm fecked right off that my kids will have LESS choice and opportunity in the world than I did to work/live as they grow up and I'm proper fecked off with the seeming collapse of any competent political system.
I appreciate your worries MNH and being made redundant is never good.
I worked for a Queens award to industry for export a few years ago...when I got made redundant.
We were in Common Market then.
we have to ask ourselves is "how much longer could we support a collapsing regime"?
Spain, Ireland, Greece and France now with severe fiscal problems.
How can nations become effectively bankrupt.
The answer has been "quantative easing" ...basically lets print more money and use it to paper over the cracks
Even those on the left and right in France are saying what a brave and correct choice we made.
as for kids having choice....what choice do we have who is in the commission/parliament?
I fear your kids would have even less.....
As for competent political system....hmmm ;)
I do hope you find employment sooner rather than later.
Apparently employment now is higher than pre brexit...winners and losers in all political decisions..
As for racial abuse ..terrible....just losers who feel they have a voice.
Tbh this has been my only downside of it all
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we have to ask ourselves is "how much longer could we support a collapsing regime"?
No we don't, we have to ask ourselves why we have done something to ourselves with no plan of what to do next. There is no plan. At all. Which is the single reason for the economic and trade problems we now face, it's farcical and frightening. But yeah let's just tut at a bit of abuse and crack on with all this 'control' we now have. Great work everyone.
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Now we want to stop pussy footing about, and follow the peoples directive and LEAVE.
Do you have even the remotest idea how long and how complicated the job of leaving the EU actually is?
Also, do you know what you mean by 'leave'? There are many different interpretations. What's yours? Hard Brexit? Soft? What trade deal do you want? Free movement controls? Financial passporting?
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Now we want to stop pussy footing about, and follow the peoples directive and LEAVE.
A50 to be signed in the first quarter of 2017 according to the Guardian. Theresa May just wants to get on with it apparently as ' Brexit means Brexit,' 8)
If the plan is good enough for the new PM then its good enough for me.
Cameron had no plan and arrogantly assumed he could frighten us into his way of thinking. He even instructed the Civil Service not to plan for Brexit. Gross negligence and professional negligence from someone in charge of a country.
Him and Osbourne should be banged up in the Tower instead of relaxing on a beach somewhere working out what honours to bestow upon their entourage of obsequious klingons :dan
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I suppose the crime of 'asleep in charge of a country' carries no penalty for an ex- Etonian Tory boy. Problem is that there is no credible opposition at the moment, so May could go to the country with a watered down version of Brexit and get it through.
I'll only believe we are leaving the EU when we are actually out, and the sooner the better IMO :police:
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I suppose the crime of 'asleep in charge of a country' carries no penalty for an ex- Etonian Tory boy. Problem is that there is no credible opposition at the moment, so May could go to the country with a watered down version of Brexit and get it through.
I'll only believe we are leaving the EU when we are actually out, and the sooner the better IMO :police:
Totally agree, I know who has more to lose. Our yearly contribution will sorely be missed.
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Reports suggest that anti-brexit protesters have raised funds to purchase 5000 EU flags to display during the Last night of the PROMS tomorrow evening , which marks the end of this years BBC promenade season .
The 6000 cosmopolitan audience go to these events for one reason only , to enjoy great music composed by worldwide composers and played by British and foreign musicians and enjoyed by millions of viewers worldwide .
If these people have a link however tenuous to the official anti-brexit campaigners shame on them .
They will be observed with dismay and disgust by a worldwide audience of millions .
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Never mind the flags. As at no time in many years, the message is in the music. We have built Jerusalem in England's green and pleasant land.
That which God has ordained, let no man put asunder.
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There were some excellent concerts, the end to a great season 8)
Went to Battle Proms a couple of years ago. No star spangled EU flags there...bit late to start waving them when we're on the way out, nothing wrong with a bit of nostalgia I suppose :dan
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Who saw Question Time last night?
Was it me, or did most of the people asking the questions have a cockney accent?
Only recognised about two people.
Where were any representation of the local migrant community?
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Who saw Question Time last night?
Was it me, or did most of the people asking the questions have a cockney accent?
Only recognised about two people.
Where were any representation of the local migrant community?
You should have known better than watched it Dip after the way the BBC stitched us up last year :dan . Yes I watched it as well , you make valid points .
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Did they ever answer the Syrian Refugee question?
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Did they ever answer the Syrian Refugee question?
I didn't hear them give an answer to it. They were far to busy reminiscing about Don Revie's Leeds team of the 70's. I've never yet seen a politician who answers the question they are actually asked. They are, however, very good at waffling for long enough for us to forget the actual question, and they are very good at answering the question they WANTED to be asked, but weren't.
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Rod Liddle was excellent on Diane Abbot and the London based lefties, very eloquent :dan
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Oh the irony of Sunderland voting over 60% to exit Europe, and the biggest employer already voicing genuine concerns about being in a post Europe Britain and trying to export back into Europe with the likelihood of at least a 10% tariff.
Unintended consequence might be lower immigration, as the increasing unemployed Brits means Britain won't have to rely on immigrants to fill vacancies :bunny
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Oh the irony of Sunderland voting over 60% to exit Europe, and the biggest employer already voicing genuine concerns about being in a post Europe Britain and trying to export back into Europe with the likelihood of at least a 10% tariff.
Unintended consequence might be lower immigration, as the increasing unemployed Brits means Britain won't have to rely on immigrants to fill vacancies :bunny
Is it "genuine concerns" or more likely the posturing you would expect a world class firm to adopt when doing a deal ?
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Oh the irony of Sunderland voting over 60% to exit Europe, and the biggest employer already voicing genuine concerns about being in a post Europe Britain and trying to export back into Europe with the likelihood of at least a 10% tariff.
Unintended consequence might be lower immigration, as the increasing unemployed Brits means Britain won't have to rely on immigrants to fill vacancies :bunny
Is it "genuine concerns" or more likely the posturing you would expect a world class firm to adopt when doing a deal ?
At this stage it is likely to involve some posturing but they based themselves in the European free trade market, that will change and therefore their business model is somewhat altered - a tariff was not in their original plans.
Was at BMW in Oxford last week, with 80% of their production for export they face a similar dilemma.
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Oh the irony of Sunderland voting over 60% to exit Europe, and the biggest employer already voicing genuine concerns about being in a post Europe Britain and trying to export back into Europe with the likelihood of at least a 10% tariff.
Unintended consequence might be lower immigration, as the increasing unemployed Brits means Britain won't have to rely on immigrants to fill vacancies :bunny
Is it "genuine concerns" or more likely the posturing you would expect a world class firm to adopt when doing a deal ?
At this stage it is likely to involve some posturing but they based themselves in the European free trade market, that will change and therefore their business model is somewhat altered - a tariff was not in their original plans.
Was at BMW in Oxford last week, with 80% of their production for export they face a similar dilemma.
Would,nt worry d c , we don,t want to lose them and they don,t want to lose us .
Sure they will conclude a deal like business and politicians do, dress up for both sides to claim to be the winners .
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Ah . . Hunter Madeley Charlton Reaney
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The Great Repeal Bill to be announced today allegedly.
It will repeal the 1972 European Communities Act allowing us to regain British Sovereignty 8)
Brexit is starting to really mean Brexit, although they still have to get it through parliament, and Herr Juncker and Co will probably challenge its legality :police:
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Article 50 invoked before the end of March 2017 8)
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Rubbish timing for us - German elections next year. Not much meaningful can be decided in 2017 with those going on, so I would expect the immediate negotiations to be that the negotiations can go on longer than two years.
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As long as it is not April 1st ;)
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From William Hill:-
Brexit in 2019 1/6
Before that 13/2
Not before 2020 13/2
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Shares at an all time high.
£ at the lowest level since 1985
Confusing or what?
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Shares at an all time high.
£ at the lowest level since 1985
Confusing or what?
More concerning to Patter followers JCB have withdrawn from the CBI !!!!
Will this have any effect on miele,s granddad ?
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Shares at an all time high.
£ at the lowest level since 1985
Confusing or what?
Not really.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-3821269/FTSE-100-passes-7-000-nears-time-high-pound-slides.html
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Shares at an all time high.
£ at the lowest level since 1985
Confusing or what?
Not really. The shares appear cheaper to foreign investors who buy more of them which pushes the price up. we end up with more of our companies owned by offshore parties......hardly the "taking back control" that the Brexiteers were harping on about?
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Whitehall officials believe the UK may need to make big payments to the EU to secure preferential trading terms after Brexit, BBC Newsnight has learned.
During the EU referendum, Vote Leave claimed leaving the EU could save the UK £350m a week in contributions.
But an unnamed cabinet minister has told Newsnight that the UK may end up "paying quite a lot" of that money to secure access to the single market.
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Whitehall officials believe the UK may need to make big payments to the EU to secure preferential trading terms after Brexit, BBC Newsnight has learned.
During the EU referendum, Vote Leave claimed leaving the EU could save the UK £350m a week in contributions.
But an unnamed cabinet minister has told Newsnight that the UK may end up "paying quite a lot" of that money to secure access to the single market.
we import more than we export.
pound is low so imports costs are high..our goods appear cheap.
do Germany and France etc really want to stop selling cars in UK??
Food may rise...but that will be Spanish tomatoes, french caulis Dutch mushrooms, Brazilian beef....maybe we might eat more home grown food
(i was told today from a couple of wholesalers that prices may rise by up to 20% in my game (non food)...most of what we use is from USA or Far East)
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(i was told today from a couple of wholesalers that prices may rise by up to 20% in my game (non food)...most of what we use is from USA or Far East)
Inflations part of your game I thought.....
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I wonder what inflation would have to hit before a clear majority of people think this is a very bad idea? More than 5% but less than 10%, I reckon.
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Judicial Review Permission Hearing today, requesting permission for a JR of the decision to invoke Article 50 without a vote in the Commons.
If permission is granted we can forget Theresa May's end of March 2017 deadline for signing A50, unless they are able to fast-track the process which seems unlikely. :police:
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But would anyone have supported a JR if the answer had been the other way?
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But would anyone have supported a JR if the answer had been the other way?
This is exactly why I find discussing the entire subject now pointless.
There would not have been a JR as we would not have been looking to invoke A50 as we would have voted remain!
THE POINT of the JR is not to stop leaving, thats done - decided - literally nobody is saying change it. The issue, the JR, is to stop a quick reactionary exit which is ill thought out and not properly considered. IF the PMs plan (and its not even the governments or the ministers plan as non of them agree) is so good why can it not be debated, voted on, in the commons.
WE HAVE TAKEN BACK CONTROL remember, let's use it ;) :dan
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But would anyone have supported a JR if the answer had been the other way?
This is exactly why I find discussing the entire subject now pointless.
It's pointless but I'm still doing it.
This whole Brexit debate reminds me of a clip I saw earlier of a Donald Trump supporter being interviewed by CNN:
Trump Fan: Obama, well, he never showed his birth certificate. He should show his birth certificate.
CNN: He did.
Trump Fan: Nooo.... [SMILES AND SHAKES HEAD]
Hear a fact.
Decide you don't like fact.
Deny fact.
It's happening more and more. No matter how many times Brexiters are told nobody (well, some are, but they can't be taken seriously) is seeking to overturn the EU vote, they just carry on claiming the demands for a vote on the terms of the exit are demands to overturn the vote. You can't reason with such wilful and deliberate delusion, and yet I try... and try...
Leave won. Well done. We are leaving Europe. Everyone accepts it.
What we will not accept are the specific terms of that exit being determined without proper Parliamentary scrutiny. That's only right, and only fair, because the stakes are simply too high. And anyone saying, "who cares, let's leave now" - just please go away and educate yourself about the real world, because you're making things ten times worse.
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But would anyone have supported a JR if the answer had been the other way?
This is exactly why I find discussing the entire subject now pointless.
It's pointless but I'm still doing it.
This whole Brexit debate reminds me of a clip I saw earlier of a Donald Trump supporter being interviewed by CNN:
Trump Fan: Obama, well, he never showed his birth certificate. He should show his birth certificate.
CNN: He did.
Trump Fan: Nooo.... [SMILES AND SHAKES HEAD]
Hear a fact.
Decide you don't like fact.
Deny fact.
It's happening more and more. No matter how many times Brexiters are told nobody (well, some are, but they can't be taken seriously) is seeking to overturn the EU vote, they just carry on claiming the demands for a vote on the terms of the exit are demands to overturn the vote. You can't reason with such wilful and deliberate delusion, and yet I try... and try...
Leave won. Well done. We are leaving Europe. Everyone accepts it.
What we will not accept are the specific terms of that exit being determined without proper Parliamentary scrutiny. That's only right, and only fair, because the stakes are simply too high. And anyone saying, "who cares, let's leave now" - just please go away and educate yourself about the real world, because you're making things ten times worse.
I find myself agreeing with you :o to a certain extent.
People voted to leave, fact. In a democracy the will of the people must be followed,fact.
The people put into power by the masses, have a duty to do what is best for the country and it's people.
That is to get the very best possible deal for the UK. I know that certain dealings have to be done in private, but MP's have a right and duty to discuss such an important issue in parliament.
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Totally agree.
I didn't want to leave the EU, but we are leaving. Now it's up to the politicians to get us the best deal.
Now hurry up and let's get that stadium built before it costs £10 a brick.
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I voted brexit in the believe Geo Osbourne must get something right ,
When are we going to get an interest rate rise Geo?
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I voted brexit in the believe Geo Osbourne must get something right ,
When are we going to get an interest rate rise Geo?
I'd guestimate that Brexit has put back an interest rate rise quite a few years... I suppose we could get back to 0.5 in late 2017/2018, if things go spectacularly well.
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I voted brexit in the believe Geo Osbourne must get something right ,
When are we going to get an interest rate rise Geo?
I'd guestimate that Brexit has put back an interest rate rise quite a few years... I suppose we could get back to 0.5 in late 2017/2018, if things go spectacularly well.
So Geo got it all wrong again !!!! he claimed the interest rate would rise because brexit would be a spectacular disaster.
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he claimed the interest rate would rise because brexit would be a spectacular disaster.
'Brexit' hasn't started yet.
And given how badly things have gone since the vote to leave do you really think it won't be worse when it actually starts? Especially if its a shoot from the hip, reactionary, daily mail pleasing mess its looking to be right now.
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An interesting point on JR. Parliament makes the laws; the legislature is there to make sure that the law is applied, interpreting where necessary. The JR is asked to rule on whether there should be a commons vote on enacting article 50. If JR says no vote, then we go ahead, but if it insists on a vote, parliament is entitled to ignore the legislature, by amending the act which JR implies would be contravened, or by passing an entirely new act which overrules the JR decision. The snag is that to pass or amend an act there needs to be a vote in parliament. And round we will go again! To quote Sir Thomas More, I trust that I make myself obscure.
Regarding the debate on whether the government should tell parliament what its exit strategy is, of course you don't show your cards to the opposition (either in parliament of the EU). However, I would have thought that the exit strategy is clear...
1) Invoke article 50 in full, breaking all ties and agreements which form part of our membership of the EU. (That's what exit means, although it would appear that many wish not to understand this.)
2) Speedily enact through parliament those things which are under our control so that the status quo continues where we want it to.
3) Negotiate with the EU about anything that we have lost by leaving so that we achieve the best deals we can. This point can start at any stage and doesn't have to wait for the earlier items. We will win some and lose some, but that's what those of us who voted for exit anticipated (or should have anticipated) anyway. At this point we are out with the best deals that are available.
4) Negotiate new trade deals with the rest of the World, including the EU as we see fit. At this point the EU will have come to realise that being bloody minded is not suiting their interests and will probably be approaching us to replace the deals that they have denied us, or looking for new deals.
From this point onwards it is a brave new World and we need to stay one step ahead as we have done throughout history. My only doubt is whether we have the negotiators of the calibre required to achieve this momentous undertaking. History will judge their success or failure.
Per ardua ad astra.
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he claimed the interest rate would rise because brexit would be a spectacular disaster.
'Brexit' hasn't started yet.
And given how badly things have gone since the vote to leave do you really think it won't be worse when it actually starts? Especially if its a shoot from the hip, reactionary, daily mail pleasing mess its looking to be right now.
So when will interest rates rise ? many are getting inpatient, the promise of higher rates was appealing to many .
Osbourne predict a dramatic change would happen rapidly if an out vote was the outcome .
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You are aware Osbourne is not Chancellor still yeah?
His predictions for what happens on an out vote were in line with the statement that the PM would be invoking A50 the next day, which thankfully even he wasn't stupid enough to do.
So forget any prediction or assumption from either of those two on an out vote, they were designed to shock people into remaining - it didn't work obviously BUT its yet to be proven right or wrong UNTIL the A50 part is started.
Now we have a situation nobody predicted or wanted, vote leave but A50 not started straight away, a new PM/Chancellor/cabinet - with the PM being a Remainer!?!? So forget what anyone predicted or said would happen, we are in no mans land.
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I predicted that if vote leave prevailed in the referendum then it would be voted down in parliament.
If they go ahead with the debate, which seems inevitable and constitutionally correct, then the vote will be on the Single Market, in or out, and I can only see that going one way.
So we will have 'left' the EU but still be in the Single Market.
'Out' and In at the same time, but mostly In as that is what big business and the establishment have decreed should happen.
If your vote could make a difference they would never have given it to you in the first place
I am slightly cynical having experienced the Judiciary being paid off by multi £billion businesses, something I thought could never happen :dan
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I predicted that if vote leave prevailed in the referendum then it would be voted down in parliament.
If they go ahead with the debate, which seems inevitable and constitutionally correct, then the vote will be on the Single Market, in or out, and I can only see that going one way.
So we will have 'left' the EU but still be in the Single Market.
'Out' and In at the same time, but mostly In as that is what big business and the establishment have decreed should happen.
If your vote could make a difference they would never have given it to you in the first place
:dan
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I predicted that if vote leave prevailed in the referendum then it would be voted down in parliament.
If they go ahead with the debate, which seems inevitable and constitutionally correct, then the vote will be on the Single Market, in or out, and I can only see that going one way.
So we will have 'left' the EU but still be in the Single Market.
'Out' and In at the same time, but mostly In as that is what big business and the establishment have decreed should happen.
If your vote could make a difference they would never have given it to you in the first place
I am slightly cynical having experienced the Judiciary being paid off by multi £billion businesses, something I thought could never happen :dan
Given that 48% of the population voted remain - and would presumably therefore all back single market membership, it only requires that 2% of the 52% who voted leave would like to remain a member of the single market for it to be the majority view among the electorate. Given that those leave voters were sold the illusion that we could have single market membership, control of migration, full control of laws and £350m a week on top, it seems pretty likely to me that would hold.
Interesting that the Treasury predicted a 12% decline in Sterling in a Brexit world. It's actually down about 18%. 'Project Fear' may have actually been a bit too optimistic...
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It looks like an elaborate charade enacted by characters who are not even aware of their part in the process, May being the one likely exception. Puppets controlled by the majus of big business and multi £billion deals.
We already had the charade of Cameron's renegotiation of the UK's membership, so no surprise really :police:
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Nissan to manufacture three new models at their Sunderland factory post Brexit.
Better than expected figures concerning British finances post Brexit.
Perhaps project fear was just bullsh*t ??? ???
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Perhaps Nissan were told that we will still be in the Single Market, ie essentially still part of the EU despite the vote to get out...I'm sharpening up my pitchfork this weekend ready for the uprising from the Shires :dan
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Nissan to manufacture three new models at their Sunderland factory post Brexit.
Better than expected figures concerning British finances post Brexit.
Perhaps project fear was just bullsh*t ??? ???
Honestly, the naivety of this just shows the mess we are in already and the absolute meltdown ahead when we do eventually leave.
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I guess you are more educated than me mnh and I bow to your greater knowledge. I also guess you are younger than me.
But......
Is the euro stable?
Is the European commission a good idea ?
Is the European Court a good idea?
Is the European Parliament a good idea?
Do you or I have much say in the above?
(We certainly didnt vote for the above when we voted for a Common Market)
Are Italy Spain Greece and Ireland stable financially?
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Again genius, what the actual feck are all all those points about the euro etc? I've said nothing about them. Carry on ignoring he situation, carry on wilfully ignoring the genuine and practical issues raised by the Out vote and complain those asking qeuestiins are traitors or whatever.
Nissan have played the government perfectly and have set up the rest of the automotive industry to now do the same (consessions, subsidies etc.) then you will see the other industries doing the same, because why not? If only there was some sort of European club we cloud be in which protected governments from being held to ransom by globally operating companies.
Also if I am younger what the hell has that got to do with anything? There are more eduducated and more intelligent people younger than me and I'm totally comfortable with it. If you aren't do something about it. Educate yourself.
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I was asking if you think those bodies are good or not basically.
I voted in the 70's but got more than I voted for...does the idea of a European army cheer you??
You still haven't addressed the issue of bankrupt nations and how they will be saved.
It's a good idea that's got out of hand ;)
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Again genius, what the actual feck are all all those points about the euro etc? I've said nothing about them. Carry on ignoring he situation, carry on wilfully ignoring the genuine and practical issues raised by the Out vote and complain those asking qeuestiins are traitors or whatever.
Nissan have played the government perfectly and have set up the rest of the automotive industry to now do the same (consessions, subsidies etc.) then you will see the other industries doing the same, because why not? If only there was some sort of European club we cloud be in which protected governments from being held to ransom by globally operating companies.
Also if I am younger what the hell has that got to do with anything? There are more eduducated and more intelligent people younger than me and I'm totally comfortable with it. If you aren't do something about it. Educate yourself.
Agree or not. It is what it is and we must now get on with it
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You know how most people in Britain see Donald Trump? As a populist who has no actual credible plans whatsoever, but shouts slogans and is backed by a worryingly high proportion of voters?
That's exactly how the rest of the world sees Brexit.
And appears to have Nissan stayed put because the government has promised to insulate it from the hugely negative effects of Brexit (should we go for the 'hard' variety). The idea that this says something good about Brexit is laughable.
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Again genius, what the actual feck are all all those points about the euro etc? I've said nothing about them. Carry on ignoring he situation, carry on wilfully ignoring the genuine and practical issues raised by the Out vote and complain those asking qeuestiins are traitors or whatever.
Nissan have played the government perfectly and have set up the rest of the automotive industry to now do the same (consessions, subsidies etc.) then you will see the other industries doing the same, because why not? If only there was some sort of European club we cloud be in which protected governments from being held to ransom by globally operating companies.
Also if I am younger what the hell has that got to do with anything? There are more eduducated and more intelligent people younger than me and I'm totally comfortable with it. If you aren't do something about it. Educate yourself.
Agree or not. It is what it is and we must now get on with it
Correct Big M , That's the sentiment we as a democracy have to accept .
Being given the "facts "(know to us as guess work and lies ) by a ragtag collection of cross party politicians convinces me there is not enough watertight information to give a trusted conclusion .
A great spin-off from the referendum is the country effectively culled or got rid of some useless bungling
politicians .
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You know how most people in Britain see Donald Trump? As a populist who has no actual credible plans whatsoever, but shouts slogans and is backed by a worryingly high proportion of voters?
That's exactly how the rest of the world sees Brexit.
And appears to have Nissan stayed put because the government has promised to insulate it from the hugely negative effects of Brexit (should we go for the 'hard' variety). The idea that this says something good about Brexit is laughable.
Trump v Clinton , our sympathies go out to the American people , as tasteful as leave v stay campaign .
As in our referendum very few facts , plenty of guesswork, lies from organisations and politicians who give projections (guesswork ) which are mostly flawed . Like us with the referendum only a small percentage of voters will be naïve enough to believe them .
Adam where did you discover how the rest of the world see Brexit ? same goes for your information that Nissan may receive special treatment .
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No need for sympathy for the American people. At least they could repair the damage when they vote again in 4 years time.
As for us.........
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Adam where did you discover how the rest of the world see Brexit ? same goes for your information that Nissan may receive special treatment .
No idea for Adam but I can tell you mine. I work (until the 31st of this month) for a global company in a global industry. I talk daily to Indians, Americans, South Americans, Russians and people in Malaysia and Singapore. They have exactly that view. What have you done, you had the best of both worlds with access to and opt outs of a market worth $19trillion you are crazy.
So yes I do discover how the world sees Brexit, I talk to and work with people who are effected by it. And it's the biggest mistake we have ever been allowed to make. I don't ignore it. I don't dismiss it. I look at the practical questions it raises and ask who has the answers. And they are all yet to be answered so I'll keep on asking thanks.
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Adam where did you discover how the rest of the world see Brexit ? same goes for your information that Nissan may receive special treatment .
No idea for Adam but I can tell you mine. I work (until the 31st of this month) for a global company in a global industry. I talk daily to Indians, Americans, South Americans, Russians and people in Malaysia and Singapore. They have exactly that view. What have you done, you had the best of both worlds with access to and opt outs of a market worth $19trillion you are crazy.
So yes I do discover how the world sees Brexit, I talk to and work with people who are effected by it. And it's the biggest mistake we have ever been allowed to make. I don't ignore it. I don't dismiss it. I look at the practical questions it raises and ask who has the answers. And they are all yet to be answered so I'll keep on asking thanks.
Sorry to hear of your loss of job Micky , with evolution you always get winners and losers , happens to almost everyone in a lifetime . While you have been hit with this set back others are already gaining the benefit of post Brexit by gaining work . Harsh fact is yes it has hit you badly but in time benefits of change will hopefully be your gain . Pleased you have explained your misfortune which makes it easier to understand your anger . You don,t mention what industry you are in but I hope if need be you adapt to another line of business . Keep a positive attitude , hoping you quickly find employment .
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My job loss is not a direct result of Brexit, the closing of the wider plant is though (700+ jobs) as we were taken over earlier in the year and my role is now done outside of the UK. My only anger is at the ignorance of the issues it's created and the lies that were sold to millions and swallowed (and yes there were lies by both campaigns but only one sides count now!).
What specific benefits of Brexit are there? And more specifically what have you witnessed so far, given it's not actually happened yet we have only felt the effects of the uncertainty the vote created?
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I second that
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We have much to be grateful for with immigration ,eg doctors , nurses etc
The underlining cause of complaints is governments failure to plan for the influx , housing , schools and hospitals .
At various times when chatting to our MP he has expressed joy of a local firm winning awards , others of expanding their workforce . Sadly I have had to point out this success is due to very hard working employees (mainly migrants ) being on very low pay .
Many skilled workers are working on rates well below the trade agreements .
Market forces at work , workers readily available = lower wages .
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I have spoken to several people who voted to leave - and now question their choice at the ballot box. I wouldn't rule out concessions made to the Government to persuade the UK to remain part of the EU - and as such if a second referendum was held the result would be an overwhelming victory for the remainers.
Theresa May continues to say Brexit means Brexit - but what exactly is Brexit?
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The Canadian/EU CETA trade deal has just been signed .
Thought to be worth around £10billion of trade per year.
Trade deals with China, India, America, etc look like the way forward for us 8)
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The Canadian/EU CETA trade deal has just been signed .
Thought to be worth around £10billion of trade per year.
Trade deals with China, India, America, etc look like the way forward for us 8)
That is true - but it took 7 years of negociations.
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Saw five magpies in one tree today.
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Saw five magpies in one tree today.
Is this a cryptic message to suggest we should all invest in silver?!
Wikipedia tells me the first known occurrence of magpie song was in a book of Lincolnshire folklore with the lyric:
One for sorrow
Two for mirth
Three for a funeral
And four for birth
Five for heaven
Six for hell
Seven for the devil, his own self
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Ken, you have just replied to the SILVER King. I have took the hint, the Dipdodah millions are being invested as I speak ;) ;)
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The Canadian/EU CETA trade deal has just been signed .
Thought to be worth around £10billion of trade per year.
Trade deals with China, India, America, etc look like the way forward for us 8)
That is true - but it took 7 years of negociations.
Mainly because all 27 nations had to agree it! Surely one agreeing with another one would be easier?
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When we leave the EU, does this mean we will get Duty Free back at the airports?
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Unsurprisingly the court ruling is that parliament has to be consulted before Article 50 is signed, could be that Brexit doesn't really mean Brexit after all
If it comes down to a parliamentary vote which way will Matty Warnham MP vote :o :dan
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Unsurprisingly the court ruling is that parliament has to be consulted before Article 50 is signed, could be that Brexit doesn't really mean Brexit after all
If it comes down to a parliamentary vote which way will Matty Warnham MP vote :o :dan
it was obvious and right concerning the ruling.
obviously it will go to the supreme Court on appeal.
What happens if the Commons vote not to follow the will of the people?
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An uprising in the Shires, we're marching to London! :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan
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Unsurprisingly the court ruling is that parliament has to be consulted before Article 50 is signed, could be that Brexit doesn't really mean Brexit after all
If it comes down to a parliamentary vote which way will Matty Warnham MP vote :o :dan
If he wants to keep his seat surely he'll have to vote the way we voted in the referendum? Or is the party more important?
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Unsurprisingly the court ruling is that parliament has to be consulted before Article 50 is signed, could be that Brexit doesn't really mean Brexit after all
If it comes down to a parliamentary vote which way will Matty Warnham MP vote :o :dan
Matt is Brexit man now , really finding his feet as a politician . Gone are his days of honesty and transparency .
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Sleaford and North Hykeham's man has resigned this morning
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The MP resigned over irreconcilable differences with the government's hard Brexit stance.
The question is does Matty H, MP, favour staying in the Single Market?
If he does he would appear to have irreconcilable differences with 75 % of the people he represents 8)
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Isn't it strange that there was no similar vote before Major signed the Maastricht agreement, thereby forcing us into the European Union. So it follows that we are not, and never have been in the EU. Happy days! PS. Can we have our money back?
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Trump wins :o
Who'd of thought it possible, Brexit and now this in one year!
I wonder if there's going to be calls for a re-run of the vote, or a hard or soft Trump, a half-Trump maybe :dan :police:
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A £10 double on both outcomes would bring you a nice profit of £8,000. :)
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A £10 double on both outcomes would bring you a nice profit of £8,000. :)
That's about as accurate as the side of the Brexit bus. At what point were either of them at 28/1, the minimum odds you would need for your outcome? Unless you're referring to a bet placed about ten years ago?
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A £10 double on both outcomes would bring you a nice profit of £8,000. :)
That's about as accurate as the side of the Brexit bus. At what point were either of them at 28/1, the minimum odds you would need for your outcome? Unless you're referring to a bet placed about ten years ago?
A theoretical £5 treble on Lecicester to win Premier league,
Brexit & Trump (at largest odds available at time) would have paid over
£22 million.
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The Obama effect didn't work for Hillary or the Remain campaign.
Seems likely that the UK will now be at the front of the queue for a US trade deal, TTIP is history, and the prospect of a no-fly zone over Syria, leading to a confrontation with Russia, recedes...interesting times :police:
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A £10 double on both outcomes would bring you a nice profit of £8,000. :)
That's about as accurate as the side of the Brexit bus. At what point were either of them at 28/1, the minimum odds you would need for your outcome? Unless you're referring to a bet placed about ten years ago?
You doubt me Ferret. Easy maths Trump was 150/1 before he was nominated and 11/2 was readily available for the UK to leave after the exit polls. £8,250. Now whether any of our spineless bookies would take the bet is another thing ;)
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A £10 double on both outcomes would bring you a nice profit of £8,000. :)
That's about as accurate as the side of the Brexit bus. At what point were either of them at 28/1, the minimum odds you would need for your outcome? Unless you're referring to a bet placed about ten years ago?
A theoretical £5 treble on Lecicester to win Premier league,
Brexit & Trump (at largest odds available at time) would have paid over
£22 million.
We missed that treble Qwerty ;)
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A £10 double on both outcomes would bring you a nice profit of £8,000. :)
That's about as accurate as the side of the Brexit bus. At what point were either of them at 28/1, the minimum odds you would need for your outcome? Unless you're referring to a bet placed about ten years ago?
You doubt me Ferret. Easy maths Trump was 150/1 before he was nominated and 11/2 was readily available for the UK to leave after the exit polls. £8,250. Now whether any of our spineless bookies would take the bet is another thing ;)
But were they available at the same time? That's the idea of a double/treble bet..
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I imagine at the time Trump was 150/1 Brexit was a lively outsider too.
So yeah.
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Isn't it strange that there was no similar vote before Major signed the Maastricht agreement, thereby forcing us into the European Union. So it follows that we are not, and never have been in the EU. Happy days! PS. Can we have our money back?
Ha, I'm sorry, but that's simply not true is it? The Maastricht Treaty spent months going through Parliament. Some background reading here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_vote_of_confidence_in_the_government_of_John_Major (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_vote_of_confidence_in_the_government_of_John_Major)
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The judicial ruling is that parliament must give its assent before Article 50 exit may be started. Although much hot air was expended on Maastricht, the formal discussions were opened by a government that had not at that time the authority of a parliamentary vote to back its action. The discussions commenced under the imposition of the Royal Prerogative which it is now ruled insufficient. Remember that the judgement is about the act of formally starting discussions, not the outcome. I stick by my assertion that by the present ruling we are not legally within the EU.
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A year is such a short time in politics !!! . Only three weeks to go to the 1st year anniversary of this thread . Lots of hot air in parliament lately but nothing on this thread . Whats the main Brexit players been up to ?
Gather from another tread this morning that the instigator of this thread has just returned from a long trip abroad , what have you been up to Dipdodah ? , supporting Trump ?, meeting Putin ? helping Mrs May on Brexit ? or trying to sign Messi for the Pilgims .?
Now back home you will soon be confronted with the hardships encountered by us working class OAPs ,
Energy bills up by £13 a month ! Pensioners being ripped of by insurance companies with car insurance price hikes , big council tax increases (unless you live in Surry ). fuel prices rising .
Lets not forget the cuts , checked your interest rate cut on your hard earned savings lately ?
A few observations on the big vote last week . , sadly Nic Boles MP for Grantham is fighting cancer , bravely he insisted on leaving his hospital bed to go to Westminster to vote . On the other hand Geo Osbourne a leading player in the referendum campaign did not vote , instead Geo nipped over to Antwerp to make what would be a lucrative speech , shameful !!!! . A chip off the Dodgy Dave shoulder.
Now Jeremy,s aid Diane Abbott also failed to vote claiming to have an headache , now come on Di shame on you for not making the effort , did,nt Jeremy remind you of the good old days together , "take a asprin and lay on your back and think of England "
Brexit has been a great distraction ,with the media and public taking their eye of the ball , the Government has used it as they use a "bad news day " i.e . quietly slip in cuts / changes that the public will not notice for a time . With the parliamentary recess coming up many MPs who will be looking forward to the break may be in for a shock . I for one will be knocking at my MPs office door 9.00am tomorrow .
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Blair says all remainers must try to convince their leave friends that they have made a mistake ??? ???. If a mistake has been made and the people have voted wrongly, what difference does telling them make? Or is Mr Blair trying to distract mounting pressure on him re Iraq?
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I think Tony Blair advocating to stay in the EU will convince those who voted out that they made the right decision .
How did things work out in Iraq ?
How did you do as a middle east peace maker Tony ?
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Well said GHM, Blair = Fool.
He obviously has a lot money invested in Europe
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We may be coming out of Europe. but what odds against Lincoln City being in next year? They can still dream.
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They don't even have to win the FA cup to get into Europe so long as the other finalist is a Champions League qualifiers. I think the chances are more than reasonable as no Premier League club seems interested in this competition and will only get to the final by default and not by determination. Personally, I would like to see a Lincoln v Millwall final - if the draw and results allow!
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They don't even have to win the FA cup to get into Europe so long as the other finalist is a Champions League qualifiers. I think the chances are more than reasonable as no Premier League club seems interested in this competition and will only get to the final by default and not by determination. Personally, I would like to see a Lincoln v Millwall final - if the draw and results allow!
Wow putting it like that, I agree with you.
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The Bill has gone through the House of Lords. Shame if the Scots vote to leave the union. With the Scots and London being the main remain voters, I can see London pushing to leave as well ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
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Can't help thinking the Brexit vote might have killed Boston United! The future of the club is dependent on getting the new ground and the new ground is dependent on the Quadrant Development and without the need for all that extra housing due to the influx of EU workers then the funding for Quadrant must be in doubt. Also inflation is set to kick in now with prices going up by 10-15%, so people will have less money to spend and will have to cut back on something and going to games may be what has to give to get family budgets balanced, so crowds will fall a bit like they did during recent recessions. So a double whammy. :(
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Can't help thinking the Brexit vote might have killed Boston United! The future of the club is dependent on getting the new ground and the new ground is dependent on the Quadrant Development and without the need for all that extra housing due to the influx of EU workers then the funding for Quadrant must be in doubt. Also inflation is set to kick in now with prices going up by 10-15%, so people will have less money to spend and will have to cut back on something and going to games may be what has to give to get family budgets balanced, so crowds will fall a bit like they did during recent recessions. So a double whammy. :(
Nah, it's fine Ken. We're selling jam to New Zealand as of 2019 so there's absolutely nothing to worry about. A glorious future awaits us all!
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Have faith in this country Pete.
The EU is broken and more countries will follow Britain out.
Things may be rough for a start, But I for one would rather be independent than be dragged down the road on the end of Germany's leash.
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Can't help thinking the Brexit vote might have killed Boston United! The future of the club is dependent on getting the new ground and the new ground is dependent on the Quadrant Development and without the need for all that extra housing due to the influx of EU workers then the funding for Quadrant must be in doubt. Also inflation is set to kick in now with prices going up by 10-15%, so people will have less money to spend and will have to cut back on something and going to games may be what has to give to get family budgets balanced, so crowds will fall a bit like they did during recent recessions. So a double whammy. :(
Local politics will save it Ken .
Lincs CC have brain washed so many people that the relief road will end all Boston traffic problems and eliminate the need for a bypass they dare not let it fail ..........we hope .
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Local politics will save it Ken .
Lincs CC have brain washed so many people that the relief road will end all Boston traffic problems and eliminate the need for a bypass they dare not let it fail ..........we hope .
But I'm worried that Brexit gives Lincs CC a perfect excuse to avoid spending any money on Boston. :(
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Just a O/T on this O/T thread, police are investigating as many as 17 MP's ( all Tory ) into overspending of election funds. All in marginal seats. The government majority 17, oops. ???
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A fine of £70,000 and under Police investigation :-\ :-\
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Just seen it on Sky.Disgusting behaviour from Tory bloke towards the reporter.
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Local politics will save it Ken .
Lincs CC have brain washed so many people that the relief road will end all Boston traffic problems and eliminate the need for a bypass they dare not let it fail ..........we hope .
But I'm worried that Brexit gives Lincs CC a perfect excuse to avoid spending any money on Boston. :(
LCC don't need an excuse Ken. They've already stopped spending money on Boston!
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re the Troublesome Scots
can we have a referendum to get rid of them??
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Letter handed in, no going back.
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Letter handed in, no going back.
A leaked memo from the EU suggests they will offer us reversible notification; highly unlikely, of course, but a remote possibility should the negotiations go so badly public opinion turns against Brexit. More likely an EU ploy to try and undermine May's negotiating hand. Quite clever really.
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Spain being a bit naughty over Gibraltar. I can see why the locals voted to remain. Just a point we had to some extent open borders, but not it seems the border with Gib.
I went there some years back and was delayed several hours in queues.
Can you imagine if Britain did that from people returning from Ireland.
Could be a sign of things to come if Scotland leave the union?
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Also, we're probably going to need to make some cuts. I damn well hope they start with the state pension.
I've been meaning for a while to apologise for this remark. I do have two bugbears - one with the fairness of a young generation being voted out of the EU by an older one which is not going to see the consequences, and a second with the government's continuing generosity in funding the 'triple lock' on the state pension which I think is both unsustainable and a poor use of public money. But to link them in that way was clearly in pretty poor taste. Apologies to those that I offended (and who still have the will to read this thread).
I suppose my only defence is that it was at the height of post referendum national insanity. Nine months later, we have members of the House of Lords talking about war with Spain. So I guess I don't have a monopoly on ill advised comments...
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Also, we're probably going to need to make some cuts. I damn well hope they start with the state pension.
I've been meaning for a while to apologise for this remark. I do have two bugbears - one with the fairness of a young generation being voted out of the EU by an older one which is not going to see the consequences, and a second with the government's continuing generosity in funding the 'triple lock' on the state pension which I think is both unsustainable and a poor use of public money. But to link them in that way was clearly in pretty poor taste. Apologies to those that I offended (and who still have the will to read this thread).
I suppose my only defence is that it was at the height of post referendum national insanity. Nine months later, we have members of the House of Lords talking about war with Spain. So I guess I don't have a monopoly on ill advised comments...
As a pensioner your comments do not offend me Adam, from your remark it was clear to me you had stepped into a zone you have very little understanding of . How would you reform pensions ?
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Also, we're probably going to need to make some cuts. I damn well hope they start with the state pension.
I've been meaning for a while to apologise for this remark. I do have two bugbears - one with the fairness of a young generation being voted out of the EU by an older one which is not going to see the consequences, and a second with the government's continuing generosity in funding the 'triple lock' on the state pension which I think is both unsustainable and a poor use of public money. But to link them in that way was clearly in pretty poor taste. Apologies to those that I offended (and who still have the will to read this thread).
I suppose my only defence is that it was at the height of post referendum national insanity. Nine months later, we have members of the House of Lords talking about war with Spain. So I guess I don't have a monopoly on ill advised comments...
As a pensioner your comments do not offend me Adam, from your remark it was clear to me you had stepped into a zone you have very little understanding of . How would you reform pensions ?
Well Adam it's been a long time coming but your apology is welcome and yes I was very offended. Good luck for the future young man.
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Also, we're probably going to need to make some cuts. I damn well hope they start with the state pension.
I've been meaning for a while to apologise for this remark. I do have two bugbears - one with the fairness of a young generation being voted out of the EU by an older one which is not going to see the consequences, and a second with the government's continuing generosity in funding the 'triple lock' on the state pension which I think is both unsustainable and a poor use of public money. But to link them in that way was clearly in pretty poor taste. Apologies to those that I offended (and who still have the will to read this thread).
I suppose my only defence is that it was at the height of post referendum national insanity. Nine months later, we have members of the House of Lords talking about war with Spain. So I guess I don't have a monopoly on ill advised comments...
As a pensioner your comments do not offend me Adam, from your remark it was clear to me you had stepped into a zone you have very little understanding of . How would you reform pensions ?
I've no strong views on if they need reform as such, but I think the (state) pension has blatantly been used by the Conservatives as a bung to buy votes. The tripe lock costs £6bn a year if you believe the government's actuaries (https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/e344e79c-71af-11e5-9b9e-690fdae72044). I'm pretty sure that money would do greater good for both the country and older generation if it was used to fund social care or the NHS (even though I'm sure the latter will soon be awash with £350m a week of extra cash).
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The younger generation seem to think that the government GIFT a pension to over 65's.
The state pension is a RIGHT paid for by the pensioners during their working lives.
I speak from experience, when I say in my early married life I struggled to keep the wolves at bay.
I worked all the overtime I could and even had a second job. My contribution towards my state pension at the time could have been better spent else where. So in effect, my family and I went without to receive a meagre state pension.
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If it hadn't been for the actions of the older generation about 70 years ago, you might not have even had the chance to vote on whether to be part of a united Europe or not......
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If it hadn't been for the actions of the older generation about 70 years ago, you might not have even had the chance to vote on whether to be part of a united Europe or not......
exactly Pat............
the "You have taken away our future" line gets up my nose...maybe , just maybe we've saved it
as one who opted in all those years ago and have seen both sides of the story maybe we are better able to judge what is right or wrong???
we were never told about European Commissions...Court of Human Rights...European Parliaments...What might they(whoever "they" are) have planned for YOU next??
who will bail out Spain, Ireland, Italy who are technically bankrupt??
remember NO government has any money..it only raises money by Tax..that is you and i...
forget the figures about NHS being saved etc, the fact is we give Brussels ££ and they give some of it back BUT say where it is spent.
remember this figure is less than we give them
It saddens me that Remainers just bring it down to being racist and/or thick.
My biggest regret is that the vote wasn't wider(either way) and the previous government had put things in place or at least thought about the consequences of a Leave win
anyway i'll nip to the antique shop and buy a tin hat and wait for replies from more educated erudite posters
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If it hadn't been for the actions of the older generation about 70 years ago, you might not have even had the chance to vote on whether to be part of a united Europe or not......
exactly Pat............
the "You have taken away our future" line gets up my nose...maybe , just maybe we've saved it
as one who opted in all those years ago and have seen both sides of the story maybe we are better able to judge what is right or wrong???
we were never told about European Commissions...Court of Human Rights...European Parliaments...What might they(whoever "they" are) have planned for YOU next??
who will bail out Spain, Ireland, Italy who are technically bankrupt??
remember NO government has any money..it only raises money by Tax..that is you and i...
forget the figures about NHS being saved etc, the fact is we give Brussels ££ and they give some of it back BUT say where it is spent.
remember this figure is less than we give them
It saddens me that Remainers just bring it down to being racist and/or thick.
My biggest regret is that the vote wasn't wider(either way) and the previous government had put things in place or at least thought about the consequences of a Leave win
anyway i'll nip to the antique shop and buy a tin hat and wait for replies from more educated erudite posters
No tin hat needed from my perspective, it is a good point you make about seeing the UK pre and post-EU. I've only ever lived in a UK that is part of the union.
The only thing I'd really take issue with is that we are (well, not for much longer) a partner in all the institutions you allude to. People are very quick to roll out the 'Brussels tells us what to do' argument, but we ARE (or were) Brussels. Nothing is imposed on us; we are/were a key part of the decision making process. We won numerous concessions and rights-of-veto on stuff we didn't like, and yet people still blathered on as though we were basically being run by Germany! And you do the same, asking what "they" have planned for "us". It was never a question us v them. Now, thanks to Brexit, it is. And since they're over four times bigger than us, I can't see this having a happy ending.
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Most of the stuff the EU legislates on (that we don't opt out of) is incredibly boring stuff about product standards and regulations. I can't believe anyone who realises how dry and technocratic this work is could seriously care about whether it is done in Brussels or Whitehall. Nationally important decisions on government spending, health care, education, defence and much more are all still taken in Westminster. Tim Martin's interview on the Today programme was a case in point - asked to name an EU regulation he'd like to scrap, he couldn't, and eventually bemoaned a rise in alcohol duty. Which is set by Philip Hammond...
For my money, the one material area where control is 'taken' from us is migration policy. But once that is set by our own government, there is going to to be a very awkward moment when politicians have to explain that, actually, the economy needs high levels of immigration to keep our economy running, hospitals staffed, vegetables picked and packed etc. For years they've put off that conversation by blaming the EU, but that card won't be available much longer.
I'm beginning to feel moderately optimistic about Brexit, in the sense that we will either negotiate a reasonable trade 'deal' or (probably more likely) the wheels will fall off completely, the current government will dissolve and we end up reconsidering the whole thing...
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I'm beginning to feel moderately optimistic about Brexit, in the sense that we will either negotiate a reasonable trade 'deal' or (probably more likely) the wheels will fall off completely, the current government will dissolve and we end up reconsidering the whole thing...
I feel the same, actually. As counter-intuitive as it may appear, the fact A50 has now been sent means we can actually start dealing with reality. And if Brexit does turn out to be a good thing, or the EU implodes in the next few years, I will hold my hand up and admit I was wrong.
I can't see it happening, however, and as the news gets ever gloomier about the deal (or no deal) we will ACTUALLY end up with, the more likely it is that big compromises are made that effectively satisfy those of us on the remain side. That won't happen easily, of course. Hard brexiters hate normal, working people, including everyone on this board, and 99% of people who live and work in towns like Boston - they absolutely loathe you/me/us, and now, emboldened by their success at the polls and labour's pathetic weakness, it's likely they're going to overreach themselves in their desire to wreak ideological havoc on the very people they lied to in the campaign. They are determined to uncouple from Europe so they can get on with the job of taking your pensions, your holidays, your rights at work, holidays, maternity pay - you name it. And if you don't believe me, perhaps check out Liam Fox's thoughts on the deregulation of the labour market and tell me you're fine with it.
They will get found out, in time. Brexit will flush them out, and when their true intentions are clear, I do not doubt the public will turn on them. I feel like this is a fight we had to have at some point, but there's no doubt 'we' (including Brexiters) will stop them stripping society of the progressive gains made in the post-war era. The tragedy of Brexit is it even allowed them a chance.
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I'm beginning to feel moderately optimistic about Brexit, in the sense that we will either negotiate a reasonable trade 'deal' or (probably more likely) the wheels will fall off completely, the current government will dissolve and we end up reconsidering the whole thing...
I feel the same, actually. As counter-intuitive as it may appear, the fact A50 has now been sent means we can actually start dealing with reality. And if Brexit does turn out to be a good thing, or the EU implodes in the next few years, I will hold my hand up and admit I was wrong.
I can't see it happening, however, and as the news gets ever gloomier about the deal (or no deal) we will ACTUALLY end up with, the more likely it is that big compromises are made that effectively satisfy those of us on the remain side. That won't happen easily, of course. Hard brexiters hate normal, working people, including everyone on this board, and 99% of people who live and work in towns like Boston - they absolutely loathe you/me/us, and now, emboldened by their success at the polls and labour's pathetic weakness, it's likely they're going to overreach themselves in their desire to wreak ideological havoc on the very people they lied to in the campaign. They are determined to uncouple from Europe so they can get on with the job of taking your pensions, your holidays, your rights at work, holidays, maternity pay - you name it. And if you don't believe me, perhaps check out Liam Fox's thoughts on the deregulation of the labour market and tell me you're fine with it.
They will get found out, in time. Brexit will flush them out, and when their true intentions are clear, I do not doubt the public will turn on them. I feel like this is a fight we had to have at some point, but there's no doubt 'we' (including soft Brexiters, whose own objections about the EU were not based on a pathological hatred of the protections of normal working people enshrined in laws they could not change) will stop them stripping society of the progressive gains made in the post-war era. The tragedy of Brexit is it even allowed them a chance.
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The younger generation seem to think that the government GIFT a pension to over 65's.
The state pension is a RIGHT paid for by the pensioners during their working lives.
I speak from experience, when I say in my early married life I struggled to keep the wolves at bay.
I worked all the overtime I could and even had a second job. My contribution towards my state pension at the time could have been better spent else where. So in effect, my family and I went without to receive a meagre state pension.
Typical of many of our time Mick . Galling for many that saved cash to supplement a poor pension now find the rate of return on the savings are rock bottom , feeding the younger over spenders with cheap credit to fuel the ever increasing debt the country is getting into .
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Also, we're probably going to need to make some cuts. I damn well hope they start with the state pension.
I've been meaning for a while to apologise for this remark. I do have two bugbears - one with the fairness of a young generation being voted out of the EU by an older one which is not going to see the consequences, and a second with the government's continuing generosity in funding the 'triple lock' on the state pension which I think is both unsustainable and a poor use of public money. But to link them in that way was clearly in pretty poor taste. Apologies to those that I offended (and who still have the will to read this thread).
I suppose my only defence is that it was at the height of post referendum national insanity. Nine months later, we have members of the House of Lords talking about war with Spain. So I guess I don't have a monopoly on ill advised comments...
As a pensioner your comments do not offend me Adam, from your remark it was clear to me you had stepped into a zone you have very little understanding of . How would you reform pensions ?
I've no strong views on if they need reform as such, but I think the (state) pension has blatantly been used by the Conservatives as a bung to buy votes. The tripe lock costs £6bn a year if you believe the government's actuaries (https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/e344e79c-71af-11e5-9b9e-690fdae72044). I'm pretty sure that money would do greater good for both the country and older generation if it was used to fund social care or the NHS (even though I'm sure the latter will soon be awash with £350m a week of extra cash).
You were emphatic that you wanted the state pension reformed , given the opportunity you can,t suggest what parts to cut .
You are correct that the likes of Osbourne and Cameron try to buy the OAP vote . Blatant attempt by these two 7 years ago, promising to protect the elderly from losing their homes to fund care in old age , what happened to that ?
On the Brexit side you had IDS the man hailed as a great benefits reformer who used the referendum as an excuse to exit the DWP , leaving it in a bigger need of reform than when he took it over .
Both camps have their own agenda , the likes of Dipdodah and myself will assure you it is not the working class they are working to benefit .
Be honest , we have no idea what he outcome will be , only that if turns out to be a great success to politicians will take the plaudits , failure and the working classes will be blamed .
Don't trust a politician .
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Very true GHM
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Snap election called for 50 days time. Liberal Democrats have stated their vote changer will be focused on the Remainers.
Does this mean 48% of the population will vote Lib Dem?
If Lib Dems become the main opposition ( could run Labour close ) can they influence any Brexit plans?
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Snap election called for 50 days time. Liberal Democrats have stated their vote changer will be focused on the Remainers.
Does this mean 48% of the population will vote Lib Dem?
If Lib Dems become the main opposition ( could run Labour close ) can they influence any Brexit plans?
If Lib Dems become the main opposition ( could run Labour close ) can they influence any Brexit plans?
Yes.
Does this mean 48% of the population will vote Lib Dem?
No.
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Snap election called for 50 days time. Liberal Democrats have stated their vote changer will be focused on the Remainers.g
Does this mean 48% of the population will vote Lib Dem?
If Lib Dems become the main opposition ( could run Labour close ) can they influence any Brexit plans?
If Lib Dems become the main opposition ( could run Labour close ) can they influence any Brexit plans?
Yes.
Does this mean 48% of the population will vote Lib Dem?
No.
Can any of this stop the (Ch)impvasion to League 2? Will it save Trinity from relegation? Will Boston beat Fylde 9-2 and gain their revenge for earlier this year? Will the new ground be built by Christmas 2020, or will we be kicking an old brown leather thing about in no man's land somewhere near Wyberton whilst humming The Pipes of Peace?
Not a chance on any of the above.
The reality is none of us really know, and until the fat lady sings, there will be more changes than in a typical Dennis Greene starting line-up.
Personally, I wish they'd get on with it.
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Just a O/T on this O/T thread, police are investigating as many as 17 MP's ( all Tory ) into overspending of election funds. All in marginal seats. The government majority 17, oops. ???
http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/
And this from a Tory paper >:( >:(
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Nuttall to stand in Skegness and Boston. At the news conference he was asked who managed Boston United. He did not know.
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Sorry have just seen Ed Kandi's thread
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Is Corbyn going to keep us in Europe? When questioned yesterday about Labour's policy on Brexit, he refused to confirm Labour would take Britain out of the EU. Has he done a secret deal with SNP?
Very worrying if a possible ( unlikely ) future Prime minister does not follow the will of the nation.
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Nah. We're deffo leaving the EU, don't you worry about that.
But not much will change as it is slowly becoming obvious we can't do the hard Brexit the hardline Tories want without completely crashing the economy. The segment on Newsnight about how the delicate supply chains involved in car manufacturing will be destroyed is particularly disturbing. Industrial leaders are already pressing the government to soften their stance.
Indeed, May will be forced to make so many compromises, all of which are dictated by the practical realities of the world we live in, that little will change.... except we won't have any control of the rules we are forced to follow to trade with the EU and beyond.
Basically, we've handed all the power to the Germans and the French and the Spanish and the rest of the bloc. And I don't want to hear a whimper of complaint from the Brexit lot when you figure this out in the next year or so, as that's what you voted for - enjoy!
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We've survived numerous financial crashes, two world wars and Tony Blair - we'll survive Brexit, it's what we are.
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That's true. We did survive two World Wars. Ok, millions died, food had to be rationed for a decade and children evacuated across the country. But we survived. So really, it was all great when you think about it. Let's hope Brexit is just as good!
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We've survived numerous financial crashes, two world wars and Tony Blair - we'll survive Brexit, it's what we are.
"Dear employees - due to the Government's decision to leave the customs union, it is now logistically impractical to continue importing the parts required to make the car engines you build, therefore we've moved production to Germany and you are now out of a job.
Still, I'm sure you'll survive: after all, you got through the second world war or something. Best of luck at the food banks!
P.S - please do not reply to this email as I'm off fox hunting for the weekend.
Toodle-pip!
Sir Huthbert Vastly-Rich, CEO"
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The world is a crazy unstable place these days, I have never much worried about what goes on in general, but now I am truly concerned about many things,Trump,North Korea,ISIS, and Turkey and many more.
Brexit means very little to me as they need us more than we need them,I voted to leave not because of immigration or being dictated to.
My values are simply this,we should not be giving away any money when we have people walking the streets with mental health problems, homeless sleeping on the streets,people going hungry and the need for food banks.
Charity beguins at home, sorry if people don't think that's right but I only give to UK charity's, a select few only Shelter and the Salvation army, everyone has the right to give to what or whomever they choose to.
Try a bit of volunteering at a homeless shelter, believe me you will feel humbled in many ways, the dignity that the homeless show is remarkable,I came away at the end of my day with a massive respect for those lovely people I had the pleasure to meet,and the Salvation volunteer's are amazing.
Yes I was humbled and yes I she'd many tears through the day and the evening also.
Will Brexit solve our problems at, probably not but at least we have the choice to vote on such issues, that's democracy in a democratic country the people voted and the majority voted to leave whether it was a slim or big majority we go with the biggest vote,so stop trying to change the outcome just because it didn't go your way,if you don't like democracy go and try your luck in North Korea.
If it had gone the other way I would have took on the chin, accepted it and moved on that's democracy,not throwing your rattle out of the pram when you don't get what you want,I was raised by parents when they said no it meant know.
We will survive and many of my friends who have their own business are doing much better know and planning for the future Brexit,why? because that's what business people do,think and plan ahead.
One door closes and another opens,there lose is our gain.
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The world is a crazy unstable place these days, I have never much worried about what goes on in general, but now I am truly concerned about many things,Trump,North Korea,ISIS, and Turkey and many more.
Brexit means very little to me as they need us more than we need them,I voted to leave not because of immigration or being dictated to.
My values are simply this,we should not be giving away any money when we have people walking the streets with mental health problems, homeless sleeping on the streets,people going hungry and the need for food banks.
Charity beguins at home, sorry if people don't think that's right but I only give to UK charity's, a select few only Shelter and the Salvation army, everyone has the right to give to what or whomever they choose to.
Try a bit of volunteering at a homeless shelter, believe me you will feel humbled in many ways, the dignity that the homeless show is remarkable,I came away at the end of my day with a massive respect for those lovely people I had the pleasure to meet,and the Salvation volunteer's are amazing.
Yes I was humbled and yes I she'd many tears through the day and the evening also.
Will Brexit solve our problems at, probably not but at least we have the choice to vote on such issues, that's democracy in a democratic country the people voted and the majority voted to leave whether it was a slim or big majority we go with the biggest vote,so stop trying to change the outcome just because it didn't go your way,if you don't like democracy go and try your luck in North Korea.
If it had gone the other way I would have took on the chin, accepted it and moved on that's democracy,not throwing your rattle out of the pram when you don't get what you want,I was raised by parents when they said no it meant know.
We will survive and many of my friends who have their own business are doing much better know and planning for the future Brexit,why? because that's what business people do,think and plan ahead.
One door closes and another opens,there lose is our gain.
Well said :)
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send it to Matt Warman and get him to learn it off by heart......
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I was brought up in the Lincolnshire fens , most the farmers were always keen to tell anyone who would listen that they would "be bankrupt next year if things didn't alter " , fighting for increased subsidies of cause . Don't recall any of them going under .
Moving into the contracting industry lo and behold it seemed doomed , bosses predicting widespread failure , another strategy for government help . Don't recall any of them going under .
May and Brussels are doing the same as any good business does , working for the best deal .
If any of us really knew the long term outcome of Brexit I don't think we would be playing on Patter , we would be too busy playing the money markets
Osbourne and Dave assured us that if Brexit won the referendum, within months there would be financial mayhem , including widespread unemployment , homes repossessed etc . Completely wrong of cause , Dave,s never had it so good and Geo has been able to give up one of his jobs . Pleased that so far their wisdom is turning out ill founded .
As an old timer who has heard it all I say ignore the politicians and so called experts (vested interests) , instead listen to the words of youngchubby 69 .
Relax and watch a new economy evolve .
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The problem is that we're fed biased information, Murdoch (Australian with US passport) has backed the winner since 1979 with exaggerated or untrue news headlines, when questioned why he was so opposed to the EU he replied 'that's easy, when i go into Downing street they do what i say; when i go to Brussels they take no notice'. Members of his organisation are regularly having secret meetings with members of government.
Any party with rich billionaire donors such as the tory party will never clamp down on tax evasion/avoidance, recently they voted down a law that would have required landlords to make their homes 'fit for human habitation' (they can make these laws in UK parliament without EU approval). Currently the strong & stable Mrs Mayhem is avoiding the public & only letting journalists ask pre-arranged questions (not even being able to hold the microphone in some cases), her meetings are in local tory hqs & visiting factories where journalists have been barred from attending. No live TV debate. Similar actions to a dictator?
our 'so called' Democracy, we live in a first past the post system with 2015 Election resulting in 1 Tory MP per 35000 votes, 1 UKIP MP per 4 million votes, & 1 Green MP for every 1.2Million votes for them.
The moment Mrs Mayhem uttered the words 'hard brexit' the pound devalued, resulting in increased costs in drugs for the NHS, all imported products or products with imported parts also increase in cost. Yes this can benefit exporters, people with savings abroad in tax havens, & our houses & businesses are now cheaper for foreign investers. Hopefully brexit will be a success, but a success for who?
We're told that unemployment is at record lows & that immigrants contribute more to the economy than they take out. We're told that public services are at breaking point. We're told the economy under the conservatives is 'strong & stable'. If all these are correct then it points to the government completely failing to collect taxes & allocate funding properly to the right areas. We have full time workers needing in-work benefits as their 'living wage' doesnt cover their living costs. We have nurses using foodbanks for heavens sake!
Homelessness - since Thatcher started selling off council houses we are now paying a fortune to private landlords in rent, it might have raised some funds at the time (as with other privatisations) but longterm its more expensive. Maybe should have invested in more social housing?
These are all my thoughts & observations. People need to think & research carefully from neutral sources before voting on elections. Personally i decide the night before the vote, but with our first past the post system do i vote how i believe or tactically? Do I vote for the local candidate or the national party? I'm yet to decide.
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We did have a chance to make the electoral system for a fairer one. People voted against it.
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The problem is that we're fed biased information, Murdoch (Australian with US passport) has backed the winner since 1979 with exaggerated or untrue news headlines, when questioned why he was so opposed to the EU he replied 'that's easy, when i go into Downing street they do what i say; when i go to Brussels they take no notice'. Members of his organisation are regularly having secret meetings with members of government.
Any party with rich billionaire donors such as the tory party will never clamp down on tax evasion/avoidance, recently they voted down a law that would have required landlords to make their homes 'fit for human habitation' (they can make these laws in UK parliament without EU approval). Currently the strong & stable Mrs Mayhem is avoiding the public & only letting journalists ask pre-arranged questions (not even being able to hold the microphone in some cases), her meetings are in local tory hqs & visiting factories where journalists have been barred from attending. No live TV debate. Similar actions to a dictator?
our 'so called' Democracy, we live in a first past the post system with 2015 Election resulting in 1 Tory MP per 35000 votes, 1 UKIP MP per 4 million votes, & 1 Green MP for every 1.2Million votes for them.
The moment Mrs Mayhem uttered the words 'hard brexit' the pound devalued, resulting in increased costs in drugs for the NHS, all imported products or products with imported parts also increase in cost. Yes this can benefit exporters, people with savings abroad in tax havens, & our houses & businesses are now cheaper for foreign investers. Hopefully brexit will be a success, but a success for who?
We're told that unemployment is at record lows & that immigrants contribute more to the economy than they take out. We're told that public services are at breaking point. We're told the economy under the conservatives is 'strong & stable'. If all these are correct then it points to the government completely failing to collect taxes & allocate funding properly to the right areas. We have full time workers needing in-work benefits as their 'living wage' doesnt cover their living costs. We have nurses using foodbanks for heavens sake!
Homelessness - since Thatcher started selling off council houses we are now paying a fortune to private landlords in rent, it might have raised some funds at the time (as with other privatisations) but longterm its more expensive. Maybe should have invested in more social housing?
These are all my thoughts & observations. People need to think & research carefully from neutral sources before voting on elections. Personally i decide the night before the vote, but with our first past the post system do i vote how i believe or tactically? Do I vote for the local candidate or the national party? I'm yet to decide.
Lots of very good points. Theresa May is a hopeless public speaker for someone who has reached high office, and in terms of other political abilities, I suspect she's average at best (although it's hard to tell because she's so secretive). The trouble is that Corbyn makes her look like JFK or Barack Obama!
The strength of our economy is massively overplayed. Our productivity levels are poor compared to France/Germany, and if you took out London and just looked at the rest of the country, they would be dire. I would blame years of underinvestment in the regions, from both major parties.
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Its looking ever more likely that my prediction of an in/in referendum was wrong, and Brexit really will mean Brexit 8)
Still a long way to go though :police:
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It's been a while since I last commented on this thread, though I am happy to have been in at the beginning. So far I have seen my hopes realised and that we are well on the way to reclaiming our independence. The forthcoming election is really about one thing and that is our independence. Although a life long socialist, I will be backing Teresa May to finish the job.
However, although I may not be around to see it, as I have inoperable liver cancer and have no idea how long I have left, I predict that the Labour Party will eventually find a moderate socialist leader who will carry the country on many of the policies which are proving to be popular despite the current leader. Winston Churchill lead us successfully in a battle for survival, but then saw the country come out in favour of socialist policies, which gave us institutions which we take for granted today. I think that history will repeat itself. If it does, then I hope that a future Labour government is not as naive as some of those in the past, but treads carefully. One final thought: We must continue as Great Britain. Let's tolerate none of this nonsense about splitting up into rump states.
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chuffing wars Fairfax....that's a post!
I hope you are wrong about your liver I really do ..but hope the rest is true...
wishing you all the best
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Theft sorry stock hear of your health problems,wish you well Fairfax
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The trouble is that Corbyn makes her look like JFK or Barack Obama!
[/quote]
JFK was a serial womaniser and if he were in power today probably wouldn't last long.....hold on..Trump is President.
Obama i thought seemed a decent guy yet he was so unpopular in the States.
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It's been a while since I last commented on this thread, though I am happy to have been in at the beginning. So far I have seen my hopes realised and that we are well on the way to reclaiming our independence. The forthcoming election is really about one thing and that is our independence. Although a life long socialist, I will be backing Teresa May to finish the job.
However, although I may not be around to see it, as I have inoperable liver cancer and have no idea how long I have left, I predict that the Labour Party will eventually find a moderate socialist leader who will carry the country on many of the policies which are proving to be popular despite the current leader. Winston Churchill lead us successfully in a battle for survival, but then saw the country come out in favour of socialist policies, which gave us institutions which we take for granted today. I think that history will repeat itself. If it does, then I hope that a future Labour government is not as naive as some of those in the past, but treads carefully. One final thought: We must continue as Great Britain. Let's tolerate none of this nonsense about splitting up into rump states.
I hope you have many more years left, and I hope the NHS is still here to give you support. I, like you have voted Labour all my life, but we need an hard Brexit and I hate to admit it but we may get this with May. Listening to Labour's manifesto yesterday, I think like you, under a different leader they would succeed. Take care.
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Even now, nearly a year on, I have absolutely no idea why anyone would wish a 'hard' Brexit on the country. It's completely baffling. Hundreds of thousands of people will lose their jobs, and this time this isn't the waffling of 'project fear' but the practical reality of life outside the EU trading bloc trading on WTO terms.
To wish this on the UK is like saying you don't like your bald patch and blowing your head off with a shotgun to solve the problem. In all the months since we voted out, I have yet to read a single argument for it that makes sense, or isn't based on delusional fantasies.
Theresa May, for her many faults, is too intelligent to pursue hard Brexit and will surely face down her back-benchers as the catastrophic damage it will inflict on the economy becomes ever clearer. Indeed, a bigger majority for her in the Commons - while a disaster for the NHS and public services in general - might actually be the lesser of two evils.
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It's been a while since I last commented on this thread, though I am happy to have been in at the beginning. So far I have seen my hopes realised and that we are well on the way to reclaiming our independence. The forthcoming election is really about one thing and that is our independence. Although a life long socialist, I will be backing Teresa May to finish the job.
However, although I may not be around to see it, as I have inoperable liver cancer and have no idea how long I have left, I predict that the Labour Party will eventually find a moderate socialist leader who will carry the country on many of the policies which are proving to be popular despite the current leader. Winston Churchill lead us successfully in a battle for survival, but then saw the country come out in favour of socialist policies, which gave us institutions which we take for granted today. I think that history will repeat itself. If it does, then I hope that a future Labour government is not as naive as some of those in the past, but treads carefully. One final thought: We must continue as Great Britain. Let's tolerate none of this nonsense about splitting up into rump states.
I hope you have many more years left, and I hope the NHS is still here to give you support. I, like you have voted Labour all my life, but we need an hard Brexit and I hate to admit it but we may get this with May. Listening to Labour's manifesto yesterday, I think like you, under a different leader they would succeed. Take care.
Well the outcome is not so clear cut. Labour are making inroads into the Tory lead. A week as gone by since above post and I think Corbyn is coming through this campaign in a lot better shape than May. In my opinion the worst thing for this country, is if any party has a Thatcher type massive majority. We do not want a hung parliament with Brexit talks just round the corner, but a small majority to keep them on their toes would be ideal.
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Too many Japanese soldiers who still don't know the war is over...although May could still bottle it and leave us in the Single Market and Customs Union. :police:
Great post Fairfax, hope you're around to see your wishes come true...
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http://openeurope.org.uk/blog/tags/european-council/
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Where does yesterday's result leave Brexit?
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Hopefully takes hard Brexit off the table at least - the people have spoken: they don't want it. Oh well! 8)
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It's been a while since I last commented on this thread, though I am happy to have been in at the beginning. So far I have seen my hopes realised and that we are well on the way to reclaiming our independence. The forthcoming election is really about one thing and that is our independence. Although a life long socialist, I will be backing Teresa May to finish the job.
However, although I may not be around to see it, as I have inoperable liver cancer and have no idea how long I have left, I predict that the Labour Party will eventually find a moderate socialist leader who will carry the country on many of the policies which are proving to be popular despite the current leader. Winston Churchill lead us successfully in a battle for survival, but then saw the country come out in favour of socialist policies, which gave us institutions which we take for granted today. I think that history will repeat itself. If it does, then I hope that a future Labour government is not as naive as some of those in the past, but treads carefully. One final thought: We must continue as Great Britain. Let's tolerate none of this nonsense about splitting up into rump states.
I hope you have many more years left, and I hope the NHS is still here to give you support. I, like you have voted Labour all my life, but we need an hard Brexit and I hate to admit it but we may get this with May. Listening to Labour's manifesto yesterday, I think like you, under a different leader they would succeed. Take care.
Well the outcome is not so clear cut. Labour are making inroads into the Tory lead. A week as gone by since above post and I think Corbyn is coming through this campaign in a lot better shape than May. In my opinion the worst thing for this country, is if any party has a Thatcher type massive majority. We do not want a hung parliament with Brexit talks just round the corner, but a small majority to keep them on their toes would be ideal.
This just what we did n't want
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We keep freedom of movement, we keep paying into the EU coffers, we are unable to make free-trade deals with countries outside of the EU, and we are unable to make our own laws...sounds like an idyllic soft Brexit, and the way big business wanted it to go ;)
We'd be out of the EU, but still subject to all the parts of it that we voted against...the laughing stock of Europe and any parts of the rest of the world that were remotely interested.
Or we could keep pushing on for the correct Brexit that the democratic majority voted for, under whatever form of government emerges from this mess :police:
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Hopefully takes hard Brexit off the table at least - the people have spoken: they don't want it. Oh well! 8)
Yep. I've no real idea what to make of the result. I'm still firmly of the view that Corbyn is an idiot, but he might - entirety by accident - have turned out to be quite a useful idiot. Hard Brexit is dead in the water and I can see a possible path to it being binned full stop. If Labour came out against it in the inevitable election later this year, I might even think about voting for them. Until that election, May basically has to be incredibly nice to Anna Soubry and Ken Clarke. Lolz.
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We have no actual experience or facts to judge the long term outcome or effect of Brexit .
As a lifetime Tory voter my reading of the situation is thus ..
Do I make a decision on the judgement of three hapless failed politicians , Cameron , May and Osbourne ? three advocates of sticking with the EU.
Judging from the enormous amount of lies , misjudgement, mismanagement and U turns this terrible trio have done following their judgement is in my opinion not wise . I stick with the majority vote of the referendum .
Maybe our problem is the public made the right decision at the referendum but we do not have the politicians to deliver .
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This 'terrible trio'' all agreed that a Brexit vote meant leaving the Single Market, so nothings changed, unless there was a second referendum that I've missed! :o
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Agreed, either they deliver the Brexit the public voted for, leaving the single market and the custom union or watch the upsurge in the ukip vote if they do a backslide as Farage fears they might.
One shining light from the election is that the youth who voted have thankfully been spared the delusions of Corbyns' ideological nonsense, boy would they have been so disappointed.
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This 'terrible trio'' all agreed that a Brexit vote meant leaving the Single Market, so nothings changed, unless there was a second referendum that I've missed! :o
Actually, quite a lot has now changed: despite the bluster of David Davies today, the Government can no longer force a hard brexit through Parliament. Any attempt to do so now would fail, since a sizable number of Tories also agree it would be a stupid thing to do and are mobilising today to force Theresa May to reconsider.
The mooted cross-party Brexit working group would also dismiss a hard brexit out of hand too. The facts and evidence point to it being a complete catastrophe, and an increasing number of MPs now believe it would be an act of obscene stupidity to pursue it.
And no, the country certainly did not vote for it - only those who worry they're not going to get what they wanted are trying to suggest it was and that to go for a 'soft brexit' is somehow subverting the 'will of the people'. Give me a break. The Norway solution was advocated by the leave campaign on numerous occasions, and having closely watched both campaigns the EEA problem was very rarely mentioned (I remember shouting at the TV during several of the debates). Indeed, go back far enough on this thread and you'll see I brought it up at the time, long before before the penny had dropped.
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This 'terrible trio'' all agreed that a Brexit vote meant leaving the Single Market, so nothings changed, unless there was a second referendum that I've missed! :o
Actually, quite a lot has now changed: despite the bluster of David Davies today, the Government can no longer force a hard brexit through Parliament. Any attempt to do so now would fail, since a sizable number of Tories also agree it would be a stupid thing to do and are mobilising today to force Theresa May to reconsider.
The mooted cross-party Brexit working group would also dismiss a hard brexit out of hand too. The facts and evidence point to it being a complete catastrophe, and an increasing number of MPs now believe it would be an act of obscene stupidity to pursue it.
And no, the country certainly did not vote for it - only those who worry they're not going to get what they wanted are trying to suggest it was and that to go for a 'soft brexit' is somehow subverting the 'will of the people'. Give me a break. The Norway solution was advocated by the leave campaign on numerous occasions, and having closely watched both campaigns the EEA problem was very rarely mentioned (I remember shouting at the TV during several of the debates). Indeed, go back far enough on this thread and you'll see I brought it up at the time, long before before the penny had dropped.
I would think that all the MP,s referred to above and many more would have assured us 6 weeks ago that May would win with a big majority . Many MP,s appear to be hapless but never underestimate their ability to lie , scheme and stab a colleague in the back .
Many ,many more twists and turns in the pipeline . No history to guide us to guessing the correct outcome , only speculation from politicians , bankers and various experts , we all know where their advice has got us in the past .
Dipdodah has now lured us into submitting almost 700 posts expressing an opinion on a subject if we are honest we do not know the answer to . I think the only thing established so far is many of us have as much spare time on our hands as Dipdodah . :)
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This 'terrible trio'' all agreed that a Brexit vote meant leaving the Single Market, so nothings changed, unless there was a second referendum that I've missed! :o
At 8.10am yesterday, on the Today programme, David Davis stated that nothing had changed with the government's plans for Brexit.
At 7.20 this morning on the same programme Harriet Harman stated that the Labour party Brexit policy was to leave the Single Market and Customs Union.
It seems pretty clear that the policies of the main parties are for a 'clean' Brexit.
I always thought that referendum was an in/in referendum as,whatever the result, big business and the big money, would
ensure that any attempt to leave the Single Market would be voted down. I still believe that is what will happen and atm we are going through the motions of an elaborate charade.
The longer it goes on the worse the repercussions will be when millions of people realise that we are out of the EU in name only, and still subject to everything that we were promised would end if we voted out :police:
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You are correct: the official party line for both Labour and the Tories is to pursue a clean break, but you surely can't have failed to notice the growing noises from the backbenches of both parties to soften this stance, simply because of the huge damage it will cause.
Will either party change course? Yes, I think they will have to as reality sets in. But - and this is a big but - perhaps it's already too late. I've just been reading an interesting article in the Financial Times today which says that France and Germany will try and push us towards a hard brexit regardless of any moves here to avoid one. They know that if that's the route we choose they can basically cripple our economy and take supply-chain critical manufacturing jobs off us, such as Airbus, as well as financial passporting.
Catastrophe for us, but since the carnage that hard brexit will cause seems to have not yet sunk with with the electorate, France and Germany see an historic opportunity to nudge us off the edge of the cliff knowing that UK politicians who attempt to resist will be branded traitors at home. They must be absolutely loving all this. We're basically gifting them jobs so we can do some trade deals with New Zealand, or something.
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Labour's manifesto was definitely vague enough to allow them to demand single market membership the moment one person's job is placed on notice because of Brexit...
I've always thought that, if the economy tanks and chaos unfolds in broad daylight, we might end up reversing the whole thing - but up until a week ago, that scenario looked vanishingly unlikely, as Theresa May had bought (an illusion of) stability. But this 'government' probably makes that scenario plausible again.
Prime Minister Corbyn in a year's time will be amusing, if nothing else.
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There has never been the mandate for the so called "hard brexit". Many who voted were led to believe they were getting all the benefits of a soft brexit with none of the pitfalls of hard brexit. The elephant in the room is that it simply can't be delivered in the form in which it was sold. A hard brexit will undoubtably lead to economic hardship, whilst a soft brexit will leave many feeling cheated.
Either way I stand by my original statement that by voting out, we will end up in a significantly weaker position whichever path we take - "hard" or "soft". I respect the result of the referendum, however dubious I considered the result, being based on a campaign of wilful misinformation. However, I think it would do those in power (and those who voted leave) good to remember that 48% of the population voted remain. We may begrudgingly accept the result, but that does not give consent to the ultra brexiteers to pursue their extreme version of Brexit. It is the job of the government to recognise the wishes of ALL its subjects and govern accordingly.
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There's been another referendum apparently :police:
72 hours before negotiations begin and the Chancellor is saying that the majority of people favour a soft Brexit.
A business-friendly Brexit is what we're heading for, leaving the EU without actually leaving it, in order to keep the money men happy. That would be the same people who just got away with mass corporate manslaughter yesterday as soon as May announced that the investigation into the London fire would be 'Judge-led', corporate-speak for a cover up.
Now there's a surprise, a real laugh out loud moment...
Mrs May may as well resign now because there's riots on the streets of London tonight and even bigger trouble ahead :police: :police: :police:
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It's bloody typical really. You wait 300 years for the worst Prime Minister in history then 2 turn up together!
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It's bloody typical really. You wait 300 years for the worst Prime Minister in history then 2 turn up together!
Agreed, May has proven to be a disaster and is now only there as an interim measure.
The Cameron/Osbourne duet caused this situation with their arrogant incompetence. They then then tried to lie their way out of it with project fear, and they're now sat in the wings taking the p*ss and getting very well paid for it.
Your response also applies to the other parties, since Ed was block-voted in ahead of David Milliband there's been no effective opposition. David Milliband would have won in 2015 IMO, but is now the forgotten man of British politics.
Clegg and Farron never had a hope in hell...more chance with a Cable/Campbell alliance of the undead :-\
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Ironic that indirectly the unions got the tory party into power , by backing Ed Milliband to stab his brother in the back , which led to a hapless government which opened the door for Cameron and co to take power .
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I'd have taken Ed over David any day of the week. What's more, I would have taken him over Cameron and I'd take him over May too. If one thing has been proven it's that Tory promises of providing "strong and stabl" governments and avoiding "coalitions of chaos" have been shown to be comically wide of the mark.
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Today's the day let the wheeling and dealing begin.
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It's amazing how the language around Brexit has changed. It's now almost always purely in the context of damage limitation, with not a peep from any of its proponents about any benefits. Occasionally you get some bluster from Mogg and co about 'it can only be a hard Brexit because soft Brexit would be betraying the will of the people' - but never any actual positive reasons for it. As someone pointed out on Twitter, if Gove or Johnson gave one of their 'this is how great Brexit will be' speeches today, they would look deranged.
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Yeah. As it stands, hard brexit is totally dead and public opinion is moving away from the idea of it. Obviously this will upset a a fair few people, so it may well be hardline brexiters demanding a vote on the final deal instead of the remain side. Crazy how it has turned around so quickly.
I say 'as it stands' because the political landscape keeps changing every few months, so who knows what the next 18 months will bring. The position of the hardliners hasn't exactly been helped by the defeat of populist nationalism in France, nor the terminal weakening of May's hapless government. Perverse as it may seem, perhaps their best hope of getting that clean break they so desire is a Corbyn-led government. Bonkers.
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I see today that nothing has been decided about the border between Northern Ireland and the South.
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I see today that nothing has been decided about the border between Northern Ireland and the South.
What will be stopping EU immigrants entering Ireland, crossing the Border to Northern Ireland.
Our borders will be weak at this point, any undesirables can enter via the back door.
A mockery really. I visit Ireland on a regular basis and most are against any border control.
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I see today that nothing has been decided about the border between Northern Ireland and the South.
What will be stopping EU immigrants entering Ireland, crossing the Border to Northern Ireland.
Our borders will be weak at this point, any undesirables can enter via the back door.
A mockery really. I visit Ireland on a regular basis and most are against any border control.
Exactly my thoughts on seeing this on the news. We didn't vote for weak borders or poor immigration control. Would love to know how the pathetic government plans of getting net migration figures down to the tens of thousands ( that old broken promise ) when at the same time they want to guarantee all EU citizens currently here the right to stay. The great betrayal has already started, backed by project fear mark II !
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It's not a 'great betrayal' whatsoever. It's simply that Brexit is far more complicated and far harder to implement in reality than you were told by the leave campaign, many of whom live in a delusional fantasyland. The Irish border was always going to be a problem - this was pointed out repeatedly but no-one wanted to hear it.
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It's not a 'great betrayal' whatsoever. It's simply that Brexit is far more complicated and far harder to implement in reality than you were told by the leave campaign, many of whom live in a delusional fantasyland. The Irish border was always going to be a problem - this was pointed out repeatedly but no-one wanted to hear it.
Its not the Brexit campaigners that are delusional, its this bunch or remoaner's who just won't accept a democratic result as so many predicted would happen right after the shock election result came in. Pure and simple, those who voted out knew that an out vote meant leaving the single market and shoring up our borders...both of which the project fear mark II team will ensure will not happen as we wished. I call that being betrayed, and many others do too. I think we all need to be accepting that remoaners will never accept that they lost in the election, and that will do all they can to dislodge what is supposed to be a democratic result. Bad losers in my world !! Bring back Farage ;D
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So let me get this straight: you want to *impose* a hard border on the people of Ireland to solve YOUR issues with immigration? Wow!
The hard border is - and was - NEVER going to happen. Get over it! More and more of this stuff will come out over the following months and years, so you'd better get used to being disappointed.
And this isn't people trying to 'thwart' the will o'the people. Fact is, people DO respect the referendum. Brexit is happening, but it's just such a hideously complex task that delivering it in the real world - not the world of pipe dreams and fantasies of the Leave campaign - is going to require so many more of these compromises by the end we'll probably wonder what the point was.
Screaming 'betrayal' isn't helpful. Anyway - enjoy it, you've won, you're getting what you wanted!
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Incidentally, the border is 300+ miles long. There are in the region of 200 road crossings. Have you even the faintest idea how much it would cost the British taxpayer (and believe me, the Republic of Ireland won’t put anything towards it – this is all on us) to create, staff and then maintain this hard border you want to keep immigrants out? A least a billion quid up front. And then hundreds of millions per year thereafter. That’s fewer schools, hospitals, police. Permanently higher taxes. Lower pensions. Is that a price you’re honestly willing to pay? Really?
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So let me get this straight: you want to *impose* a hard border on the people of Ireland to solve YOUR issues with immigration? Wow!
The hard border is - and was - NEVER going to happen. Get over it! More and more of this stuff will come out over the following months and years, so you'd better get used to being disappointed.
And this isn't people trying to 'thwart' the will o'the people. Fact is, people DO respect the referendum. Brexit is happening, but it's just such a hideously complex task that delivering it in the real world - not the world of pipe dreams and fantasies of the Leave campaign - is going to require so many more of these compromises by the end we'll probably wonder what the point was.
Screaming 'betrayal' isn't helpful. Anyway - enjoy it, you've won, you're getting what you wanted!
You keep mentioning the fantasies of the leave campaign, but my view is what about all the lies from Cameron which cost him his job and the promise to bring down net migration to the tens of thousands ? Even now, with that weak woman in charge she will still betray us over those figures. This is why i believe we need every angle of border controlled, because i'll tell you now, a weak border with Ireland will aid more migrants coming in through the back door that way. Had we had a decent pro Brexit PM now, we would be cutting the foreign aid budget, thus funding our own priorities here and certainly looking after our ex servicemen who find themselves abandoned and homeless. Money well saved in the long term is my honest opinion. Add to that the so called benefits of EU migrants weighed up against the negatives such as 1 in five of the unemployed are currently migrants, 1/3rd of all crimes are committed by migrants and pretty much all of the illegal trading of illicit booze and tobacco are caused by migrants from the EU thus costing the UK Billions in lost revenue per annum then you can surely see we are better off trying to control poor mass immigration and protecting our nation.These Billions saved by cutting the foreign aid budget as well as cutting down on illegal trade would make the few Million per year of which you speak to control Irelands Borders look like a drop in the ocean. I know its not all about immigration, but it was indeed the key subject of the referendum, and Cameron as a say failed to grasp that and then lost his job because of it. Anyway, i respect your opinion so peace.. we're all BUFC regardless of in nor out.
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Immigrants actually make a net contribution to the UK economy - they pay more in taxes etc than the receive in benefits.
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Immigrants actually make a net contribution to the UK economy - they pay more in taxes etc than the receive in benefits.
In taxes yes, but lets not forget that they send around 30% of total wages per month back to their homelands. Meaning it doesn't get spent in our Country and help boost our economy. I know if we worked abroad we would probably do the same, but that still doesn't address our situation here is my honest opinion. I would also add just how much they claim for children that are not currently in the UK, more of our money freely moving abroad. While most migrants are blooming good workers, i am still not convinced the pro's outweigh the cons. Especially where our economy and communities are concerned. As i said to Pete, i respect all of your views as i would expect you would respect mine. To be all the same in agreement would make the world a boring place.
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No worries, not going to fall out with you or anyone about it. This is a Boston forum after all, not PMQs, although this thread has been fascinating over the last year or so.... and refreshingly cordial given the wide range of opinions!
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Immigrants actually make a net contribution to the UK economy - they pay more in taxes etc than the receive in benefits.
Does that include when they return home for a time and them return to claim tax back?
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I really do not see that Ireland is a problem. We have an agreement with Ireland since the separation of the nations and this predates the EU or even the EEC by many years. Under that agreement, Irish passport holders have the right to restriction-free travel within the UK and an Irish passport holder can even countersign your application for a UK passport. Assuming that a resumption of "The Troubles" does not occur we just resort to the situation prior to 1968.
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Immigrants actually make a net contribution to the UK economy - they pay more in taxes etc than the receive in benefits.
You overlook the cost of new schools , expanding the health service and the problems and costs of housing Martyn .
A factor overlooked applicable to Boston is the distress caused to many housed and unhoused Bostonians , many have been pushed down
the social ladder housing list , others in the lower cost home areas of Boston have found themselves trapped in a home unsellable
at a fair market value due to adjacent HMOs . All due to lack of planning starting in the Blair era right through to the present
government .
These very same people unable to for see relatively simple problems like above then have the audacity to preach the merits/setbacks
involved in Brexit . These are joined by bankers and others who at different times have been caught with their fingers in the till .
Add to that the "facts" which is in fact speculation produced by "experts" the political equivalent of M O Day pundits ..
Can we really form a sound opinion based on the above ? Relax and sit back 5 years before a true picture emerges .
And lets all reward Dipododah for instigating this thread by rushing up and buying him a pint in the Pilgrim bar tomorrow night . :)
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Immigrants actually make a net contribution to the UK economy - they pay more in taxes etc than the receive in benefits.
You overlook the cost of new schools , expanding the health service and the problems and costs of housing Martyn .
A factor overlooked applicable to Boston is the distress caused to many housed and unhoused Bostonians , many have been pushed down
the social ladder housing list , others in the lower cost home areas of Boston have found themselves trapped in a home unsellable
at a fair market value due to adjacent HMOs . All due to lack of planning starting in the Blair era right through to the present
government .
These very same people unable to for see relatively simple problems like above then have the audacity to preach the merits/setbacks
involved in Brexit . These are joined by bankers and others who at different times have been caught with their fingers in the till .
Add to that the "facts" which is in fact speculation produced by "experts" the political equivalent of M O Day pundits ..
Can we really form a sound opinion based on the above ? Relax and sit back 5 years before a true picture emerges .
And lets all reward Dipododah for instigating this thread by rushing up and buying him a pint in the Pilgrim bar tomorrow night . :)
:) I would think I am more likely to get a bash on the head.
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I really do not see that Ireland is a problem. We have an agreement with Ireland since the separation of the nations and this predates the EU or even the EEC by many years. Under that agreement, Irish passport holders have the right to restriction-free travel within the UK and an Irish passport holder can even countersign your application for a UK passport. Assuming that a resumption of "The Troubles" does not occur we just resort to the situation prior to 1968.
Right, but it's not Irish passport holders the Brexit lot are worried about is it?
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Net immigration down according to the latest figures.
Nowhere near the 10s of thousands Cameron said he was aiming for, but we've been lied to by the Governor of the Bank of England, both the current and the ex - Chancellor, the ONS, the CBI, the BBC, and every two-bit remoaner snake-oil salesman who decides to stick his or her oar in, so what were we to expect from our ex - prime minister? ;)
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Presumably driven by the UK being a much less attractive place to come to, a very dubious cause for celebration...
The only way we'll ever get near the 100k net migration 'target' in the next decade is by completely crashing the economy or doctoring the figures Soviet style. At the moment, the former doesn't look particularly likely, as the high up sensibles (essentially Phillip Hammond and the civil service) look to be doing a reasonably adept job of ensuring we quietly sell out on the more idiotic Brexit ideas/fetishes in order to avoid the damage they would cause (see: EFTA Court). As of yet, people don't really seem to have noticed. Essentially, we're probably going to end up having a relationship with the EU that means we have slightly lower obligations on matters like free movement (which will be superficial/for parading to the Daily Mail), a clunkier but still workable trading relationship, and a significantly diminished influence over any of this stuff. A pretty bum deal, but probably about the least bad one available.
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Come on Adam and ED, sod Brexit more important things to sort out down York St , we've got sort out the Chapman /Murray problem first. ;)
We can hear and read much on Brexit through the media , which I guess is where most get the Brexit information from . How reliable is this ? Note most the journalists attended the same education establishments as the politicians that they socialise with and collect their "reliable information" from .
Independent studies ? these are mainly commissioned by people/parties with a vested interest . compiled by so called experts based mainly on biased speculation to suit the organisation paying the huge fee for the report , Well won't we do the same ? , probably another big payday round the corner .
I collect my information from Fred (not his real name ) next door . Fred,s education although better than mine did not extend to the establishments which these so called Brexit experts attended .
What expertise does Fred have to offer that the above mentioned experts do not ? . Fred has worked in the food processing import/export business for 25 years . When Brexit is done and dusted he will have what he has now , a job that gives him a reasonable life style , no fat cat salary nor a multi-million pound windfalls.
I have found his information/predictions far more reliable and unbiased than that collected from the media .
Abandon the Telegraph and the log fire .
Nothing beats standing on the drive discussing Brexit with Fred in a lovely Lincolnshire sunset . Healthy, enlightening and the free fruit and veg tastes great .
The immigration figures were in line with Fred,s prediction . Factories going up in Poland , and "staff wanted " posters beginning to appear in some EU countries .
Forget Brexit lets get back to the more important matters of Murray and Chapman !
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Come on Adam and ED, sod Brexit more important things to sort out down York St , we've got sort out the Chapman /Murray problem first. ;)
We can hear and read much on Brexit through the media , which I guess is where most get the Brexit information from . How reliable is this ? Note most the journalists attended the same education establishments as the politicians that they socialise with and collect their "reliable information" from .
Independent studies ? these are mainly commissioned by people/parties with a vested interest . compiled by so called experts based mainly on biased speculation to suit the organisation paying the huge fee for the report , Well won't we do the same ? , probably another big payday round the corner .
I collect my information from Fred (not his real name ) next door . Fred,s education although better than mine did not extend to the establishments which these so called Brexit experts attended .
What expertise does Fred have to offer that the above mentioned experts do not ? . Fred has worked in the food processing import/export business for 25 years . When Brexit is done and dusted he will have what he has now , a job that gives him a reasonable life style , no fat cat salary nor a multi-million pound windfalls.
I have found his information/predictions far more reliable and unbiased than that collected from the media .
Abandon the Telegraph and the log fire .
Nothing beats standing on the drive discussing Brexit with Fred in a lovely Lincolnshire sunset . Healthy, enlightening and the free fruit and veg tastes great .
The immigration figures were in line with Fred,s prediction . Factories going up in Poland , and "staff wanted " posters beginning to appear in some EU countries .
Forget Brexit lets get back to the more important matters of Murray and Chapman !
Well said GHM. I thought you would be at church this sunny Sunday morning ;)
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Labour have just fallen off their Brexit fence on the side of staying in the Single Market and Customs Union...what a mess they're in :police:
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I see the EU put the devorce bill for the UK at 100 billion. They are having a laugh. :-[
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Absolute disgrace....just shows how much they extract from UK.
They may have mentioned this 18 months ago...something else they grey unelected are trying to impose on us...
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I see the EU put the devorce bill for the UK at 100 billion. They are having a laugh. :-[
Just applying simple arithmetic, 100,000,000,000 divided by the quoted 350,000,000 we send them a week means we'll be better off in about five and a half years? About the same commitment as a car loan? Or have I over simplified it all?
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Don't forget that around half the reported £350 million comes back to the UK, so more likely around 11 years. Some of us may not be around to see the benefits by then!
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Don't forget that around half the reported £350 million comes back to the UK, so more likely around 11 years. Some of us may not be around to see the benefits by then!
Id account for it all, as most of what came back we also got told where it had to be spent. Most the time it wasnt in places where we needed it most.
Anyone remember the bridge spend years ago!! Im Yet to see a 56 ton load to go over the new bridge in town which cost millions to do and was dictated by the EU fund that we get discounted.
Frampton reserve 150k investment in a area i think should be left natural anyway. All Dictated by the EU and is a spend forming part of the rebate
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Still no mention of the Irish boarder crossing >:(
I voted Brexit, I think we are being sold down the line, out surely means out.
I did not vote to come out in five years ( from voting day ) or vote for us to pay more than our fair share to get the fat cats fatter.
May has shafted the British public.
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Still no mention of the Irish boarder crossing >:(
I voted Brexit, I think we are being sold down the line, out surely means out.
I did not vote to come out in five years ( from voting day ) or vote for us to pay more than our fair share to get the fat cats fatter.
May has shafted the British public.
You sound surprised 😀
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I am afraid she has got to appease the remoaners.
If you look back over the posts on this thread, it was predicted this would happen. :(
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Are you really surprised that organising Brexit - disentangling 40 years of legal and trading integration with a continent of 450m people and then trying to come up with an alternative - is going to involve concessions, compromise, and take a long time? In what world does a 52/48 vote for leave - where the form of 'leave' was left completely undefined on the ballot paper - mean that we should automatically opt for the most extreme harikari version of it imaginable?!
This idea that everything is black or white is symptomatic of why UK politics has become an absolute mess. On one hand you have the Tories being torn apart by fantasist loons and public schoolboys like Rees-Mogg and Boris, who treat running the country as japes and banter for the light amusement of public schoolboys. The opposition to that is a Labour party which has turned itself into a personality cult where some fossil who belongs in the 70s is worshiped by a bunch of ill-informed idealists in a manner that should be confined to student union elections.
For me, the best thing that could happen is the whole thing goes to pot, one or more of the two main parties splits up with a sensible party emerging from the ashes, and - though unpleasant - perhaps we need a short, sharp recession to bring the electorate to its collective senses and let us go back to the politics of compromise and steady progress, rather than deluded grand visions.
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I am afraid she has got to appease the remoaners.
If you look back over the posts on this thread, it was predicted this would happen. :(
It's not about 'appeasing' anyone. It's simply May dealing with the actual reality of disentanglement, rather than some weird fantasy that we can cut all ties tomorrow. Unfortunately, no matter how much you may wish to pretend otherwise, Brexit is going to be an extraordinarily complex and hugely expensive task that simply cannot be achieved before the existing deadline. Again, this has been pointed out repeatedly and either completely ignored or dismissed as 'moaning'.
Of course, if you have any practical suggestions as to how we go about replacing all the EU agencies with UK equivalents - not to mention finding several billion quid to construct the vast customs facilities required for our shiny new border - before March 2019, I'm sure we're all ears!
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Anyone who thought it was going to be a quick straight forward process was living in dreamland as is anyone who thinks they can predict an accurate picture of the state of the EU and the UK in five years time . Even great successful business men disagree so what chance have Patter posters got of predicting the outcome .
Adam . RE: Mogg and Boris , how on earth did you manage to overlook Geo (6 jobs ) Osbourne .
Recession ? YES . Brexit or otherwise the recession will not short and sharp , deep and long I fear .
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Recessions seem to come and go as regular as clockwork, its a boom and bust economy. 40+ years in the EU doesn't appear to have helped that.
Not long ago we were paying 15 % mortgage rates, negative equity was commonplace, and many had their houses repossessed or just sent the keys back to the lender.
I'm sure we'll see more of that when we go begging to be let back in after the 'Implementation Period' :-\
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'Implementation' rather than 'Transition' without too much detail concerning what is about to be 'implemented' :o
Many scenarios possible but all the most likely atm leave us as a vassel state of the federal republic of the EU.
If no deal is better than a bad deal we may as well GTFO before the year end. The EU have already stated that we'll get a bad deal so over the 'cliff-edge' we go before Britannia gets right royally shafted over the Brussels negotiating table :angel:
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It's clearly not that we'll be in a state of permanent recession upon leaving the EU (although a nasty one is clearly possible if a Boris Brexit is implemented), it's more that as we erect barriers between ourselves and the market of 450m of the world's most prosperous people next door, the economy is likely to just grow that little bit slower in perpetuity. There will be investments and developments that just don't happen. Think of a car manufacturer choosing to locate its plant in Slovakia rather than Stevenage because it doesn't want to become embroiled in delays and paperwork at Dover. In a way, we won't 'miss' those things, but they mean that a few thousand people who might have got a promising new job at a high-tech manufacturing plant instead find themselves stuck on the minimum wage. We're talking about the economy maybe growing at eg 1.8% a year rather than 2% - but as anyone who understands compounding interest knows, small differences each year add up to substantial amounts in the long run.
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If no deal is better than a bad deal we may as well GTFO before the year end.
That's literally impossible unless you think we can construct huge customs processing facilities at every port in the UK within three months, as well as hiring and training thousands of staff to do the processing. And that's just customs. We'd also require a brand new visa system built and tested within five weeks. IT projects of that magnitude typically need about 3-5 years.
Does anyone round here actually even slightly grasp what hard Brexit means?
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It means decades of hardship for the majority.
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The recent EU deal with Canada took seven years!
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I've always believed that the in/out choice in the referendum was actually an in/in choice; we would never be allowed to leave as so many big businesses and financial institutions, both in the UK and Europe, stood to lose too much money so it would eventually be voted down by parliament. Nothing to do with possible job losses, everything to do with appeasing the shareholders.
At one stage it looked like I'd got it wrong and we were actually heading for the exit, but last Friday's speech by May appears to put an end to that.
There is no hard or soft Brexit, we're either in or out.
The Demos voted out.
All the obstacles that the project fear/remainers now throw up were implicit in the question on the referendum paper to any partially sentient human being, nobody expected it to be easy ffs!
If we pull out of negotiations, switch to WTO rules, and get on with it we will survive the fall-out, continue trading with the EU with tariffs, and build up trade with other faster growing economies, putting the UK in a much stronger position.
The country's not going to implode over leaving the EU.
There will be uncertainty, and a certain amount of chaos is unavoidable. The borders will no doubt be chaotic initially, but out of chaos comes order.
We need to get on with it before Barnier and Co, ably assisted by the remainer half of our Cabinet, take their chance to bring the UK to heel and punish us for having the impertinence to exercise our democratic right to vote :-X
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First point. Nobody voted to be in the EU, because there was no EU when the previous referendum was held. It was to a vote to be a member of an economic community, aka the Common Market, which was supposed to make the movement of goods easier with lower tariffs. I'm still waiting for significantly lower taxes that the government of the time promised if we voted in favour.
Subsequently, our leaders signed a treaty giving away our sovereignty without consulting the people. Unquestionably, this was an act of high treason and the perpetrators would at any other time in history, have been brought to trial and executed.
This is the first and probably the only opportunity for the population to reclaim the lawful rights of the British people. Failure to do this will mean that we will be inevitably drawn deeper into a superstate where we have little or no say in our destiny. All the arguments about compromise are irrelevant. No ifs, no buts to quote a certain culpable politician; we must get out of something we don't believe in. The evidence that we are not part of this pernicious European dream is clear. We have refused to join the Euro. We have refused to commit to the Shengen agreement regarding free movement over boundaries. We have just participated in a pointless exercise to pull back some of the commitments to which we had previously agreed. In other words, we don't believe in the superstate dream and we certainly don't want to immerse ourselves in the idea.
We want our country back and there is only one way to achieve it. The way out may be involved and complicated, depending on which politicians are allowed to stick their oar in, but June 23rd will be a historic day for the nation. If we stay in, it will be the last day for us as a nation.
Fairfax sums it up nicely 8)
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Don't forget that around half the reported £350 million comes back to the UK, so more likely around 11 years. Some of us may not be around to see the benefits by then!
Id account for it all, as most of what came back we also got told where it had to be spent. Most the time it wasnt in places where we needed it most.
Anyone remember the bridge spend years ago!! Im Yet to see a 56 ton load to go over the new bridge in town which cost millions to do and was dictated by the EU fund that we get discounted.
Frampton reserve 150k investment in a area i think should be left natural anyway. All Dictated by the EU and is a spend forming part of the rebate
Unusual post for this thread , probably the first that quotes FACTS and not opinions based on speculation based on propaganda fed by parties with a vested interests . It fully exposes the lunacy of the Brussels fat cats detachment from the real world .
Can anyone with an insight to Brussels thinking and Boston's transport infrastructure explain where in practice when a 56ton load has crossed over the bridge what commercial premises can it legally deliver to ?
It must be said that the £150k invested in Frampton reserve will bring much pleasure to the relatively small number of people including Matt Warman MP who frequent the reserve . Likewise myself I deprive much pleasure several days a week playing a very nice golf course finished to a high standard with the help of EU funding . Much the same with holiday accommodation , many happy days in farm building conversion holiday lets finished to high specification due to generous EU grants made available to the wealthy farmer .
Sadly I cannot quote any attractive benefits of the EU that the hard working manual worker on low pay has access to .
I think many who voted out did so on the basis that probably some of the figures quoted by both sides were lies and settled for the opportunity to spend the limited amount of money saved on projects decided by our politicians and not detached fat cats in Brussels .
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The recent EU deal with Canada took seven years!
Maybe another good reason for us getting out Martyn . Pretty sure even our politicians aided in no small measure by our enterprising businesses would slash that timescale .
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I cant help but think the idea of being dictated to by Europe is quite appealing at the moment. Heck, I'd rather our affairs were ran by Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron than Messrs Corbyn, Mogg or Leadsom...
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I cant help but think the idea of being dictated to by Europe is quite appealing at the moment. Heck, I'd rather our affairs were ran by Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron than Messrs Corbyn, Mogg or Leadsom...
Many find it more appealing the UK being run by politicians with exactly the same motives (self interest) as our European counterparts but guided by enterprising UK business and the profits spent as seen fit by the British and not the feather bedded Europeans .
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Why UK exporters are set for a sugar rush .
The UK's sugar beet industry is looking to ramp up production, as EU quotas come to an end this week after nearly 50 years .
For the first time since 1968 the UK can produce and sell as much sugar around the world as it would like .
Experts predict it could result in lower prices .
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Cheaper candy floss at May Fair?
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Cheaper candy floss at May Fair?
Now you are talking silly ;)
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Nothing is as straight forward as it first seems. Growers are now worried that it means European farmers will also be able to flood our market with their sugar, so the price will fall but the price the farmer gets will also fall.
Apparently this happened when the milk quotas were lifted in 2015, forcing many dairy farmers out of business.
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900 people injured in Spain by the police.
Any member state should be immediately suspended if it inflicts harm on its own people according to EU rules :police:
Too much money involved so Juncker & Co will do nothing ;)
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More talk today of a no deal is better than a bad deal. They seem intent on trying to punish us for leaving. I wonder what will happen if Spain splits, I can see that being more harmful.
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That's thrown the cat amongst the pigeons :o :o Spain in turmoil. The EU is a sick patient. If Madrid send in the National police or god forbid the troops, another civil war could be in the offing. This is serious.
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Slightly off topic on this off topic thread. I am with EE and all roaming charges in Europe have been dropped. I had cause to ring Ireland on my mobile. I was charged £9.87 for the call. I contacted EE and was told the EU charges do not apply to the Uk. I questioned why? Surely last time I looked we were part of the EU. This is the reply " The UK is part of Europe, but not part of the Euro Zone. This means geographically The UK is part of Europe but trading standards are not the same as European countries thus this difference" I said what a load of crap. He said " If I had rang Ireland from France it would have been part of my plan " Anyway as a gesture of goodwill I had it refunded.
So even thou we are in the EU, we are not. I rest my case.
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Slightly off topic on this off topic thread. I am with EE and all roaming charges in Europe have been dropped. I had cause to ring Ireland on my mobile. I was charged £9.87 for the call. I contacted EE and was told the EU charges do not apply to the Uk. I questioned why? Surely last time I looked we were part of the EU. This is the reply " The UK is part of Europe, but not part of the Euro Zone. This means geographically The UK is part of Europe but trading standards are not the same as European countries thus this difference" I said what a load of crap. He said " If I had rang Ireland from France it would have been part of my plan " Anyway as a gesture of goodwill I had it refunded.
So even thou we are in the EU, we are not. I rest my case.
That reply from EE makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. And overly complicated. It's quite simple: it's 50p per minute to call Ireland on a pay monthly plan. Now that roaming charges have been abolished, it would also be 50p a minute from France as part of your plan.
EE are no longer permitted to whack the price up.
Also, roaming charges only applied when you were roaming - hence the name - so what they've got to do with any call you make while in the UK is beyond me.
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That is the reply I got Pete. I copied it off EE chat, so no mistake. The customer adviser was called Kumar. Perhaps an Indian call centre, with limited knowledge.
Just a side note, I had cause to ring EE in the summer to negotiate a new contract. I got talking to a lovely Irish girl, it turns out the EE call centre was based in Wexford. She lived in the next street to my best mate, small world ;)
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Wow. That said, having had my fair share of grief with EE over the years, I can well believe they're dishing out advice that bad/weird!
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let me try and put figures into context.
People band around figures of X million of debt this and X billion of debt that.
Did you know that one million seconds is approx 12 days and one billion seconds is approx 31 YEARS.
So when Britain were made to pay 1.4 billion to the EU in extra payment the other year, converted to seconds that would take us up to the year 2061. Frightening.
It looks like we are to pay in the region of 40 billion pounds in a divorce payment. If we paid it back at the rate of £1 a second that is £86,400 a day. So at that rate we will clear our debt in approx 1,240 years time.
You can see we have been a cash cow for Europe, no wonder they did not want us to leave.
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During the Financial Crisis of 2008 - 3 UK banks had a total of £37bn injected into them (Royal Bank of Scotland, Lloyds TSB and HBOS).
We only need another £3bn and the job is done!
But will there be interest added on to the £40bn if it's not paid off over a certain period of time?
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So it looks like Canada +++, still subject to ECJ, and more or less still in the Single Market and Customs Union, and paying in £billions for access.
Or shall we just keep our money and take our chances under WTO rules...hmmm difficult choices ;)
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So it looks like Canada +++, still subject to ECJ, and more or less still in the Single Market and Customs Union, and paying in £billions for access.
Or shall we just keep our money and take our chances under WTO rules...hmmm difficult choices ;)
Non-tariff barriers under WTO rules would result in the car industry departing the UK and put thousands of hardworking people out of a job. Not project fear: simple practical fact.
You could say the same for any number of other industries. I don't think you've really thought this one through. Then again, not many have...
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Plenty of posturing at the moment all a part of the art of negotiating .
I thought through what Geo Osbourne , Dave Cameron , Philip Hammond and Matt Warman told me , Since Brexit I drive around Boston looking for the promised dole queue , decaying factories and repossessed homes they warned would happen in months . All I see in our area is new homes being sold , full employment according to Philip Hammond , and new industry on the industrial estates , and Matt boasting of thriving local industries .
Thankfully Geo and Dave have avoided unemployment :)
Brexit is new experience , the claimed experts are really Guessperts ,. (I know but it will be in the Oxford Dictionary in ten years time :)
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Equally I work in the NHS and have not noticed £350million a week coming in yet. Just job cuts and expectations to do more with less.
I realise we haven't left the EU yet so won't be getting any financial benefits but neither would I expect too many downsides till we actually leave or at least until the deal is finalized.
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Equally I work in the NHS and have not noticed £350million a week coming in yet. Just job cuts and expectations to do more with less.
I realise we haven't left the EU yet so won't be getting any financial benefits but neither would I expect too many downsides till we actually leave or at least until the deal is finalized.
Sadly politicians use the NHS as an easy vote winner , then when the polling booths close toeing the party line takes priority .
I was amazed recently when a member of Lincoln County Hospital radiograthy dept revealed to me that he had turned out for a couple of hours work the previous Sunday for no pay "because of a serious demand ".
Don,t build up hopes of increased funding John , I would think some of it has been earmarked for upgrading the MPs home of rest . ( Houses of Parliment and its taxpayer funded bar .)
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So it looks like Canada +++, still subject to ECJ, and more or less still in the Single Market and Customs Union, and paying in £billions for access.
Or shall we just keep our money and take our chances under WTO rules...hmmm difficult choices ;)
Non-tariff barriers under WTO rules would result in the car industry departing the UK and put thousands of hardworking people out of a job. Not project fear: simple practical fact.
You could say the same for any number of other industries. I don't think you've really thought this one through. Then again, not many have...
Typical patronising remoaner post - against all the odds we do appear to be leaving in some shape or form - get used to it ;)
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So it looks like Canada +++, still subject to ECJ, and more or less still in the Single Market and Customs Union, and paying in £billions for access.
Or shall we just keep our money and take our chances under WTO rules...hmmm difficult choices ;)
Non-tariff barriers under WTO rules would result in the car industry departing the UK and put thousands of hardworking people out of a job. Not project fear: simple practical fact.
You could say the same for any number of other industries. I don't think you've really thought this one through. Then again, not many have...
Typical patronising remoaner post - against all the odds we do appear to be leaving in some shape or form - get used to it ;)
As I say, and I really don't want to be rude, if you think crashing out on WTO terms is a *good* thing, you clearly haven't thought it through. Of course, if you want to tell me how exactly the car manufacturing industry could possibly remain in the UK with (on average) 8 hour waits for customs checks at the border on the several million car parts that come over on 1,100 lorries every single day, then I'm quite prepared to admit I'm wrong. And I'm sure Honda would love to know your solution to the problem too.
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Last night's defeat in the commons has but us back in our negotiations , possibly extending our negotiation period by months if not years.
I am in two minds about last nights vote. On one hand I curse the remoaners, they are doing everything to derail our exit from the EU. They are against the will of the people. This is a democracy and they treat us like we are some backward country. How can May have a free hand to negotiate, when she has little or no say in whether what she has agreed can be implemented.
On the other hand, we are a democracy and we who voted have formed parliament. Whether we voted Labour, Tory, or the raving loonys we have put MPs in those seats. We put then there to govern, and this being one of the most important decisions in generations, parliament must have the final say.
Dipdodah@confused.com
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never a Michael Foot fan... maybe we should have listened
https://www.facebook.com/leaveeuofficial/videos/1466719976759572/
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Last night's defeat in the commons has but us back in our negotiations , possibly extending our negotiation period by months if not years.
I am in two minds about last nights vote. On one hand I curse the remoaners, they are doing everything to derail our exit from the EU. They are against the will of the people. This is a democracy and they treat us like we are some backward country. How can May have a free hand to negotiate, when she has little or no say in whether what she has agreed can be implemented.
On the other hand, we are a democracy and we who voted have formed parliament. Whether we voted Labour, Tory, or the raving loonys we have put MPs in those seats. We put then there to govern, and this being one of the most important decisions in generations, parliament must have the final say.
Dipdodah@confused.com
They're trying to prevent us leaving the single market, not the EU. Now, you may claim that remaining in the single market it tantamount to remaining in the EU, but hey ho - it wasn't on the ballot, blame Cameron for that, and if you go waaaay back on this very thread I do make the point that the two are two very separate things. The Government has a mandate from the people to leave the EU. It does NOT have a mandate to extend that to quitting the single market. If we DO leave the single market then Parliament should at the very least get a vote on it - because as you say, we live in a democracy, and such hugely important decisions must be put to a vote, not forced through by a gang of ideologically-driven vandals.
Let's not forget, these are the same people who said they wanted to take back control of the UK's borders and secure them. Now they've suddenly realised the Irish border is a massive problem - which anyone with a brain was pointing out 18 months ago - they've completely forgotten they ever said that and now claim they have no intention of enforcing the Irish border. It's just lies upon lies upon lies, and the only people standing in their way are the Tory rebels. Good on 'em.
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Both Cameron and Osbourne clearly stated that if we voted to leave then we would be voting to leave the Single Market, a fact that the remoaners hardly ever remember.
Another good one that they bring up is 'Nobody voted to be poorer'. I can't remember the phrase 'But only if we end up richer' printed next to the box I ticked on the balliot paper.
Just more brain-dead, patronising, remoaner crap from people who think that the majority of the British public who voted leave are 'considerably thicker than wot we are', and far too stupid to have considered that to leave after 40 odd years may have economic repercussions.
The economy is not perfect but its not in bad shape considering the remoaner experts including the ex-chancellor predicted an immediate recession. A prediction about as accurate as the one about air travel coming to a complete stand still, travel chaos at the borders, and the English channel blocked by the sunken wreckage of ships that have rusted through while they have been queuing to get in to dock.
Total absolute remoaner b*llo*cks! :police:
Happy Brexmas!
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...and similarly, many leading members of the leave campaign argued that we would not leave the single market. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other if you look at the speculative arguments put forward during the referendum campaign.
On the other hand, it is a stonewall fact that the single market and EU are separate entities - Norway and others clearly demonstrate this. It is also a fact that the Conservatives ran their election campaignon the basis of a hard Brexit, leaving the single market etc, and promptly lost their majority.
As a country, we've spent the last six decades or so getting by by taking the middle road - neither the socialised economies ran by large chunks of mainland Europe, but equally with a much stronger safety net than you find across the pond. Infrastructure and management that are not particularly good compared to German standards, but generally at least well utilised compared with the empty airports and roads to nowhere you find Spain, etc etc. The idea that we should be interpreting the result of a 52/48 refendum (which opinion polls say would now go the other way) as meaning we should take the most extreme option available from the winning side was always ridiculous, self-harming and frankly un-British considering our values of moderation and sensible compromise. Thankfully, it now seems like a mixture of our weak negotiating position and there being a handful of Tory MPs happy to put country before party means that hard Brexit is pretty much dead. Good riddance.
Incidentally, two of the key warnings of the remain campaign were of economic damage and the fact that we would have a weak hand in negotiations. On the first, we've gone from being the fastest growing member of the G8 to the slowest. Our economy is barely moving forward at a time when most of the world (including the Eurozone!) is steaming along. On the second, well, look at the terms of that exit deal. Every time the press report that we have 'reached an agreement', it can be roughly translated as us having capitulated to the demands of the EU, because they hold all the cards. It's humiliating, but hey, us remoaners never promised it would be anything other than that.
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Unfortunately, from the remoaner viewpoint, we have to leave the Single Market in order to carry out the democratic will of the people.
Any compromise on this, the EUJ, and the Customs Union, will leave this country as a vassal state to the unelected bureaucrats of the EU, in a subordinate, suppliant position, still paying in billions with no say in what goes on.
Britannia will be laid out in that EU negotiating chamber, legs widespread, while the likes of Juncker, Barnier, and Tusk queue up to give her a right royal shafting :o
No matter how many hours you spend on here typing endless pro- EU blather you're not going to change that.
The great British public will not stand by and watch that happen. Enoch Powell was right all those years ago when he said that the British people will not tolerate such a state.of affairs.
Anyway, I'm off down to Chris Cook's printshop to pick up my replica blue British Passport cover as the burgundy EU version is already history ;)
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It seems you spend many hours reading up on this Brexit business Adam and we should all be grateful you passing on the opinions /speculations sourced . Like you I am critical and distrustful of most politicians and rightly so , but I do think many have had actual experience of complex business transactions unlike many of those telling us how it should be done .
I think many underestimate their skills and knowledge , I am sure right from the beginning they knew about border problems etc ,
At the moment it is all manoeuvring and posturing for public consumption by both sides .
We will have to be patient for a few years yet for the real effects to work though .
I base my judgement on what I see and hear locally .
I spoke to a very staunch Remain politician recently who canvassed for a remain vote, I put the following points to him based on my observations and not based on expert speculation which suggested places like Boston reaped great benifits from imported labour .
The very hard working workforce on low pay hand over a big portion of wages to a landlord , lets not forget their income is supplemented by tax credits and child benifit , a burden on taxpayers .
It's no secret that the police and trading standards are lacking manpower to cope with illegall sale of illegal goods , cigs and drink etc.
No tax for the HMRC there then , in turn the bona fida retailer receives a deduction in sales hitting his earnings that would be tax deducted . The now ex- remain politician admitted that the adverse health effect of the contents of the said goods would add futher burden to the Pilgrim in coming years . A fair portion of the income is "sent home " rather than spent on goods locally . I think its safe to say the "experts" overlook pertinent factors just mentioned, giving me little faith in so-called facts .
According to reported figures over the last 6 years the average wage in Boston has increased 5% , little there for the actual workers whatever nationality in Boston to cheer about.
Hopefully farmers and bigger commercial firms are still enjoying the generous EU grants handed to them .
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...and similarly, many leading members of the leave campaign argued that we would not leave the single market. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other if you look at the speculative arguments put forward during the referendum campaign.
On the other hand, it is a stonewall fact that the single market and EU are separate entities - Norway and others clearly demonstrate this. It is also a fact that the Conservatives ran their election campaignon the basis of a hard Brexit, leaving the single market etc, and promptly lost their majority.
As a country, we've spent the last six decades or so getting by by taking the middle road - neither the socialised economies ran by large chunks of mainland Europe, but equally with a much stronger safety net than you find across the pond. Infrastructure and management that are not particularly good compared to German standards, but generally at least well utilised compared with the empty airports and roads to nowhere you find Spain, etc etc. The idea that we should be interpreting the result of a 52/48 refendum (which opinion polls say would now go the other way) as meaning we should take the most extreme option available from the winning side was always ridiculous, self-harming and frankly un-British considering our values of moderation and sensible compromise. Thankfully, it now seems like a mixture of our weak negotiating position and there being a handful of Tory MPs happy to put country before party means that hard Brexit is pretty much dead. Good riddance.
Incidentally, two of the key warnings of the remain campaign were of economic damage and the fact that we would have a weak hand in negotiations. On the first, we've gone from being the fastest growing member of the G8 to the slowest. Our economy is barely moving forward at a time when most of the world (including the Eurozone!) is steaming along. On the second, well, look at the terms of that exit deal. Every time the press report that we have 'reached an agreement', it can be roughly translated as us having capitulated to the demands of the EU, because they hold all the cards. It's humiliating, but hey, us remoaners never promised it would be anything other than that.
The EU and the single market are single entities ??? So how come when the public voted to join the European Union in the early 70's they thought it was for the Common Market. Not until Major signed away ALL our rights did we find we were handcuffed to the mess we are in today. Despite the BBC's bias remoaner reporting, we are ( and will do ) very well thank you.
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It seems you spend many hours reading up on this Brexit business Adam and we should all be grateful you passing on the opinions /speculations sourced . Like you I am critical and distrustful of most politicians and rightly so , but I do think many have had actual experience of complex business transactions unlike many of those telling us how it should be done .
I think many underestimate their skills and knowledge , I am sure right from the beginning they knew about border problems etc ,
I heartily disagree - I don't think it's possible to underestimate how out of touch and ill informed most (leave supporting) politicians are with the commercial world. The Leave campaign was led by Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, neither of whom has ever known much other than Oxford University followed by a career in journalism and then switching to politics. It's a pretty open secret that the former backed leave for little reason beyond his own ambitions to reach an office far beyond what his abilities merit (unfortunately he has succeeded by somehow making Foreign Secretary). David Davis wrote an article saying that he expected the UK to have agreed free trade deals with multiple countries within 12-24 months of the vote - apparently blind to the fact doing so would be illegal. We're 18 months on and have only just agreed the outline terms of separation with the EU. (And by agreed, I essentially mean accepted all of their demands!)
The Tory back benches are laden with right wing ideologues who either have no real world experience or who have been sitting in safe seats for so long that they've long since forgotten all of it (I'm thinking of the John Redwoods of the world). They live in a fantasy world where they stoke up their own irrational hatred of the EU, and are happy to push for a cliff edge exit just to satisfy their own fetish like obsession - and damn the consequences on their constituents...
If you were interested in the views of those who have actual experience of running businesses, wouldn't it make sense to look at the business lobbies, which overwhelmingly backed remain?
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It seems you spend many hours reading up on this Brexit business Adam and we should all be grateful you passing on the opinions /speculations sourced . Like you I am critical and distrustful of most politicians and rightly so , but I do think many have had actual experience of complex business transactions unlike many of those telling us how it should be done .
I think many underestimate their skills and knowledge , I am sure right from the beginning they knew about border problems etc ,
I heartily disagree - I don't think it's possible to underestimate how out of touch and ill informed most (leave supporting) politicians are with the commercial world. The Leave campaign was led by Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, neither of whom has ever known much other than Oxford University followed by a career in journalism and then switching to politics. It's a pretty open secret that the former backed leave for little reason beyond his own ambitions to reach an office far beyond what his abilities merit (unfortunately he has succeeded by somehow making Foreign Secretary). David Davis wrote an article saying that he expected the UK to have agreed free trade deals with multiple countries within 12-24 months of the vote - apparently blind to the fact doing so would be illegal. We're 18 months on and have only just agreed the outline terms of separation with the EU. (And by agreed, I essentially mean accepted all of their demands!)
The Tory back benches are laden with right wing ideologues who either have no real world experience or who have been sitting in safe seats for so long that they've long since forgotten all of it (I'm thinking of the John Redwoods of the world). They live in a fantasy world where they stoke up their own irrational hatred of the EU, and are happy to push for a cliff edge exit just to satisfy their own fetish like obsession - and damn the consequences on their constituents...
If you were interested in the views of those who have actual experience of running businesses, wouldn't it make sense to look at the business lobbies, which overwhelmingly backed remain?
What about the overwhelming business lobby who backed leave ?.
Overall I plead ignorance on the correct outcome but certainly many I speak to are well up to the challange that brexit brings ,
others who have profited from EU grants are not suprisingly on the remain side, the same view I would take if I was in their position . Certainly the scarcemongering predictions of the remainers have proofed just that . No signs of financial disaster at Boston post brexit vote as predicted by the remainers .
Apart from above local gleamings the only other source of views I have is the media , all of who have their own agenda and feed off politicians with a view to match their own . So again biased in one direction or other and of no constructive use to form a firm opinion .
We should heed the words of Pete B , lies , lies and more lies is what we are fed by both sides .
Unless someone comes on and reveals a genuine and independent source of facts (not speculation) the thead will remain what it has been all along , a platform to present ideas which will not have the slightest effect on the outcome .
Remainers : some of their claims will be right , some wrong! . Brexit : again some right ,some wrong !
No one side have a monopoly of the facts or truth .
Forget brexit and enjoy a happy new year . :)
Want to back a winner ? Craig Elliott is your man :)
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With Corbyn wanting a customs union ( would help the Irish border ) and Major ( I signed you up to this mess) wanting another referendum ( bad loser get over it ). 120 page draft published today making Northern Ireland to stand alone in a customs union. This is messy, but to those that voted out, it was always going to be.
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With Corbyn wanting a customs union ( would help the Irish border ) and Major ( I signed you up to this mess) wanting another referendum ( bad loser get over it ). 120 page draft published today making Northern Ireland to stand alone in a customs union. This is messy, but to those that voted out, it was always going to be.
And as predicted two years ago by anyone who bothered to actually think about it, now it's all going wrong the "let's just leave NOW!!!!" brigade are pinning all the blame on the EU, who are of course merely sticking by red lines which the UK government has known of all along but had no idea how to satisfy.
But no - the EU are the 'enemy'.... haha, okay. Honestly, this whole thing might as well have been scripted. It would be hysterical if there weren't actual lives at stake over it.
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Easy, just tell them to feck off, simple. ;)
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Easy, just tell them to feck off, simple. ;)
I am in the same frame of mind, after seeing " Darkest Hour " last night >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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Easy, just tell them to feck off, simple. ;)
A practical impossibility given the infrastructure we need to "just walk away" doesn't actually exist and won't exist for several years yet, which is exactly why the Government are begging the EU for a transitional deal.
Still good to know that two years on people are still living in a weird alternate reality where stuff like this doesn't matter and you can just do what you like...
Also, telling the EU to "feck off" would mean an Irish border - you really want to ruin the lives of people over there, and possibly reignite violence, just to secure your version of Brexit? Really?
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When a Democracy, refuses to implement the result of it's own democratic voting system, it " ceases to be a democracy ". I hope all involved keeps this in mind.
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Pete B I don't know you but you appear quite erudite and well educated and I do respect your opinion. What is it about the corrupt Brussels quango you find so attractive??
I voted in back in the day...IN being a free trade agreement..simple as... I didn't get asked about a euro currency a European commission a European commission a European parliament... I suspect your politics may be left of centre and I have no issues with that but look back at what Michael Foot and Peter Shore tried to tell us back at the last referendum... I as a younger voter didn't listen... but in hindsight they were right..
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Why didn't the remainers state that to leave there would be a price - namely the divorce bill of over £50bn.
I suspect the result of the referendum would have been entirely different.
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I've said this before, I voted OUT because I don't trust them. All these faceless people, who are they, what are they up to?
I don't trust the lot that got voted in here, thieving, conniving, bastards!
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It's significant that the EU never mention the 60 page report they commissioned on the Irish border situation.
Maybe because the report found that the technology already exists to make a technological solution possible. They even suggest using the Irish border solution as a prototype for use across the EU.
Even more significant is the way some of the mainstream media reacted when Boris gave an example of how technology can be used in these situations.
The Remoaners have gone into a frenzy of anti- Brexit propaganda ahead of May's speech today, only to be expected of course, project fear is back with a vengeance!
It didn't work last time with the likes of Osbourne, Carney, and other experts being proven wrong on the immediate effects of voting out. Hopefully it won't work this time if May lives sticks to her guns and lives up to her reputation of being 'a bloody difficult woman' !
The EU are determined to use the Irish border as a means to break Brexit and keep us in the Single Market, the Customs Union, and the ECJ, or Brexit in name only, and they're wheeling out every clapped-out old binosaur they can find in an effort to overturn the vote.
If successful this country will no longer be a true democracy. It will be a country run by big business, where the interests of the shareholders are more important than the people's vote.
Unfortunately for us all, the civil unrest that would follow such a scenario would be on an unprecedented scale.
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It's significant that the EU never mention the 60 page report they commissioned on the Irish border situation.
Maybe because the report found that the technology already exists to make a technological solution possible. They even suggest using the Irish border solution as a prototype for use across the EU.
Even more significant is the way some of the mainstream media reacted when Boris gave an example of how technology can be used in these situations.
The Remoaners have gone into a frenzy of anti- Brexit propaganda ahead of May's speech today, only to be expected of course, project fear is back with a vengeance!
It didn't work last time with the likes of Osbourne, Carney, and other experts being proven wrong on the immediate effects of voting out. Hopefully it won't work this time if May lives sticks to her guns and lives up to her reputation of being 'a bloody difficult woman' !
The EU are determined to use the Irish border as a means to break Brexit and keep us in the Single Market, the Customs Union, and the ECJ, or Brexit in name only, and they're wheeling out every clapped-out old binosaur they can find in an effort to overturn the vote.
If successful this country will no longer be a true democracy. It will be a country run by big business, where the interests of the shareholders are more important than the people's vote.
Unfortunately for us all, the civil unrest that would follow such a scenario would be on an unprecedented scale.
Driving between Camden and Westminster are part of a single market and customs union, and so there is no need to stop vehicles to check that they are not carrying any goods which are in contravention of safety standards on one side of the border, or that the appropriate customs duties have been paid.
If this fairy-tale 'technological solution' existed, every border between friendly nation states in the world would already be using it.
Highlighting the difficulties and irreconcilable promises made by Brexiters and May's 'government' is not Project Fear, it is Project Cold Hard Reality.
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It's significant that the EU never mention the 60 page report they commissioned on the Irish border situation.
Maybe because the report found that the technology already exists to make a technological solution possible. They even suggest using the Irish border solution as a prototype for use across the EU.
Smart Border 2.0 is unworkable in Ireland and will not achieve the 'secure' border Brexiters demanded prior to the referendum.
The Remoaners have gone into a frenzy of anti- Brexit propaganda ahead of May's speech today, only to be expected of course, project fear is back with a vengeance!
It didn't work last time with the likes of Osbourne, Carney, and other experts being proven wrong on the immediate effects of voting out. Hopefully it won't work this time if May lives sticks to her guns and lives up to her reputation of being 'a bloody difficult woman' !
She can be as difficult as she likes; she will not get any meaningful concessions from the EU on any of the UK's red lines.
The EU are determined to use the Irish border as a means to break Brexit and keep us in the Single Market, the Customs Union, and the ECJ, or Brexit in name only, and they're wheeling out every clapped-out old binosaur they can find in an effort to overturn the vote.
If successful this country will no longer be a true democracy. It will be a country run by big business, where the interests of the shareholders are more important than the people's vote.
Unfortunately for us all, the civil unrest that would follow such a scenario would be on an unprecedented scale.
I love this argument most of all. Have you actually stopped to check the background of Brexit promoting politicians? Once the EU's power to protect workers has been removed, what do you think people like Jacob Rees-Mogg are going to do? Give us all more holidays? Extend maternity leave for new mothers? I say yet again, you haven't thought this through.... at all.
Oh, and good luck with your civil unrest! Hilarious.
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Lol!
Didn't take long for the self-appointed chief BUFC binosaur to appear ;D
The timing is as laughable as the content!
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No answers.
Enjoy Theresa May's speech this afternoon ;D
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Pete B I don't know you but you appear quite erudite and well educated and I do respect your opinion. What is it about the corrupt Brussels quango you find so attractive??
I voted in back in the day...IN being a free trade agreement..simple as... I didn't get asked about a euro currency a European commission a European commission a European parliament... I suspect your politics may be left of centre and I have no issues with that but look back at what Michael Foot and Peter Shore tried to tell us back at the last referendum... I as a younger voter didn't listen... but in hindsight they were right..
I totally agree, we were sold down the line. Maybe it's a generation thing, perhaps us of an older generation remember how it was. I remember when we voted to join The common Market ( not the EU ) we were promised more holidays, better pay and a better way of life. I did not believe them then and still do not. I voted out because to me Europe were using us as a cash cow, they imposed laws on us that favoured main land Europe. Just ask the fishermen. Don't get me going about The European court of human rights, and how it has been abused. Do you realise one last act they are trying to push through is to adopt " Berlin Time " so say goodbye to long summer evenings. Take a dog to Ireland and it has to have a Rabies jab and a passport why? There as never been a case of rabies in the UK or Ireland. The people of Britain voted OUT, so all you remoaners get over it. The government thought the London vote would get a remain victory. What they did not realise is, the fickle voters of London did not vote in numbers due to bad weather. London has been insulated from the rest of Britain for many years. The people of Britain voted out because they are sick and tired of all the crap. Germany have taken over Europe via the back door, no need for a world war, we have given it to them. I may not be as brainy as some who post on here, but I know when we are being shafted. So you can come out with all your statistics, and you can call all who voted out, thick. But the first rule of a democracy is the will of the people. So let's all sing off the same hymn sheet, and get a good deal for OUR COUNTRY. I tell you what, if they will not negotiate feck em.
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I've said this before, I voted OUT because I don't trust them. All these faceless people, who are they, what are they up to?
I don't trust the lot that got voted in here, thieving, conniving, bastards!
Short and sweet but not how my local vicar would put it Lonegunman . Probably contains more facts than most the longer posts on here .
Maybe if you had gone further and included the names Cameron , Osbourne , Carney , Blair , Major and a army of Euro fat cats it would not have gone amiss .
Even though a pensioner I can not commit time to reading referendum opinions based on speculation .
I would think my MP wishes I did rather than probing and gathering facts that are relevant to our present day lives .
I suggest most brexit critics are too busy building a case to suit their argument to notice the ease in which the government has given away control to the private sector of a service valuable and respected by the vulnerable and working classes .
Using Bexit debating as a cover to reveal bad news was that successful that I had to reveal the news to my MP of the privatisation .
I will give an update and further details when I have visited my MPs office providing I can find which desk he is hidding under .
As Lonegunman would tell you , keep an eye on the conniving thiefing bastards in your own back yard .
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Pete B I don't know you but you appear quite erudite and well educated and I do respect your opinion. What is it about the corrupt Brussels quango you find so attractive??
I voted in back in the day...IN being a free trade agreement..simple as... I didn't get asked about a euro currency a European commission a European commission a European parliament... I suspect your politics may be left of centre and I have no issues with that but look back at what Michael Foot and Peter Shore tried to tell us back at the last referendum... I as a younger voter didn't listen... but in hindsight they were right..
I totally agree, we were sold down the line. Maybe it's a generation thing, perhaps us of an older generation remember how it was. I remember when we voted to join The common Market ( not the EU ) we were promised more holidays, better pay and a better way of life. I did not believe them then and still do not. I voted out because to me Europe were using us as a cash cow, they imposed laws on us that favoured main land Europe. Just ask the fishermen. Don't get me going about The European court of human rights, and how it has been abused. Do you realise one last act they are trying to push through is to adopt " Berlin Time " so say goodbye to long summer evenings. Take a dog to Ireland and it has to have a Rabies jab and a passport why? There as never been a case of rabies in the UK or Ireland. The people of Britain voted OUT, so all you remoaners get over it. The government thought the London vote would get a remain victory. What they did not realise is, the fickle voters of London did not vote in numbers due to bad weather. London has been insulated from the rest of Britain for many years. The people of Britain voted out because they are sick and tired of all the crap. Germany have taken over Europe via the back door, no need for a world war, we have given it to them. I may not be as brainy as some who post on here, but I know when we are being shafted. So you can come out with all your statistics, and you can call all who voted out, thick. But the first rule of a democracy is the will of the people. So let's all sing off the same hymn sheet, and get a good deal for OUR COUNTRY. I tell you what, if they will not negotiate feck em.
Sigh.
It's not "Berlin" time.
It's a proposal to scrap daylight saving time across the EU.
"Berlin time" was invented by the Daily Express, The Sun and the Daily Mail to piss off people like you who inexplicably believe that we are ruled by Germany. And you've fallen for it.
What's all this "they" business anyway? As we are part of the EU, it's a proposal we have played a part in, and one in which we get a say.
"They" are not pushing anything on us. The EU has proposed it. We are part of the EU. How can something be pushed on us when we've played a role in it?
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Pete B I don't know you but you appear quite erudite and well educated and I do respect your opinion. What is it about the corrupt Brussels quango you find so attractive??
I voted in back in the day...IN being a free trade agreement..simple as... I didn't get asked about a euro currency a European commission a European commission a European parliament... I suspect your politics may be left of centre and I have no issues with that but look back at what Michael Foot and Peter Shore tried to tell us back at the last referendum... I as a younger voter didn't listen... but in hindsight they were right..
Sorry, I missed you posting this. I think the EU has many problems, much like any large institution it's never going to be perfect. And yes, it has far exceeded its original remit. But overall I think it's a force for good - it is by design a bureaucratic nightmare and so immune to the whims of populism and short-lived governments. And it is a force for good for worker rights and consumer rights. I get fed up when I hear people saying it's just a vehicle for big business - trust me, if you think the EU is some kind of corporate protection racket, just you wait until the Brexiteer right of the Tory party get their hands on our hard-won employment and consumer protections. That's why they hated the EU - it stopped them exploiting us.
The EU allows frictionless trade with our closest neighbours and I'm sorry, but trying to replace that frictionless trade with deals with China and India just won't work. In ten years time, we'll look on in envy as Germany and France power on upwards, and we're left still trying to negotiate a trade deal with frickin' Japan.
I am pleased that Theresa May did at least acknowledge the difficulties she faces in her speech today. Obviously I'd love to just call the whole thing off, but since that's unlikely to happen I'll take the soft version of Brexit that she outlined earlier. It's better than nothing. And certainly better than no deal.
Amd seriously, people: stop saying, "let's just walk away". WE HAVEN'T BUILT OUR NEW CUSTOMS INFRASTRUCTURE YET. IT WON'T BE READY FOR A DECADE. STOP IT!
Anyway, at least we can disagree on here without resorting to mud-slinging. I've seen so much abuse on Twitter and it depresses me. Brexit isn't good for us as a nation - I hate the way it has divided us. But that is exactly what Farage wanted to do.... and sorry to say, he won.
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Pete B I don't know you but you appear quite erudite and well educated and I do respect your opinion. What is it about the corrupt Brussels quango you find so attractive??
I voted in back in the day...IN being a free trade agreement..simple as... I didn't get asked about a euro currency a European commission a European commission a European parliament... I suspect your politics may be left of centre and I have no issues with that but look back at what Michael Foot and Peter Shore tried to tell us back at the last referendum... I as a younger voter didn't listen... but in hindsight they were right..
I totally agree, we were sold down the line. Maybe it's a generation thing, perhaps us of an older generation remember how it was. I remember when we voted to join The common Market ( not the EU ) we were promised more holidays, better pay and a better way of life. I did not believe them then and still do not. I voted out because to me Europe were using us as a cash cow, they imposed laws on us that favoured main land Europe. Just ask the fishermen. Don't get me going about The European court of human rights, and how it has been abused. Do you realise one last act they are trying to push through is to adopt " Berlin Time " so say goodbye to long summer evenings. Take a dog to Ireland and it has to have a Rabies jab and a passport why? There as never been a case of rabies in the UK or Ireland. The people of Britain voted OUT, so all you remoaners get over it. The government thought the London vote would get a remain victory. What they did not realise is, the fickle voters of London did not vote in numbers due to bad weather. London has been insulated from the rest of Britain for many years. The people of Britain voted out because they are sick and tired of all the crap. Germany have taken over Europe via the back door, no need for a world war, we have given it to them. I may not be as brainy as some who post on here, but I know when we are being shafted. So you can come out with all your statistics, and you can call all who voted out, thick. But the first rule of a democracy is the will of the people. So let's all sing off the same hymn sheet, and get a good deal for OUR COUNTRY. I tell you what, if they will not negotiate feck em.
Sigh.
It's not "Berlin" time.
It's a proposal to scrap daylight saving time across the EU.
"Berlin time" was invented by the Daily Express, The Sun and the Daily Mail to piss off people like you who inexplicably believe that we are ruled by Germany. And you've fallen for it.
What's all this "they" business anyway? As we are part of the EU, it's a proposal we have played a part in, and one in which we get a say.
"They" are not pushing anything on us. The EU has proposed it. We are part of the EU. How can something be pushed on us when we've played a role in it?
So you're not telling me that this is not being pushed by Germany. So you're not telling me that if Britain does not follow suit, London being the financial centre could lose that status.
So what are " people like me " Pete?
Because my opinion ( shared by about 50% on this thread ) does not fit in with yours.
You must have read one of, or all of the above papers else how did you know they printed that. I actually heard that term from a like minded friend.
Perhaps my head has been filled with fake news over the past 50 years.
Anyway a lively debate ;) ;)
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And further more if we were not in Europe the 15 centimeters of snow we have had would have been under 6 inches. Relax chaps we will get what we get.
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Dipdodah - of course it's not being pushed by Germany. The EU is by design an institution in which all members contribute equally. It's not the Second World War any more! If you feel threatened by Germany it's probably just because they do a lot of things much better than we do them - simple as that. But it's not like they waltz into the European Parliament and everyone cowers. The BBC reports it was actually Finland that kicked off the debate - and that's all it is at this stage.
As for London's future status as a financial centre - well, passporting will not be prioritised by Theresa May, so yes, Germany could well end up snaffling financial services from us and decimate the City. But if that's what happens, then hey, that's what we voted for - it's not like they invaded and nicked them; we gifted them the opportunity. Course they'll take it. Anyone would.
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Bloody snow oxo. Stuck indoors is driving me nuts. No football . So too much time to waste. Lol
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Dipdodah - of course it's not being pushed by Germany. The EU is by design an institution in which all members contribute equally. It's not the Second World War any more! If you feel threatened by Germany it's probably just because they do a lot of things much better than we do them - simple as that. But it's not like they waltz into the European Parliament and everyone cowers. The BBC reports it was actually Finland that kicked off the debate - and that's all it is at this stage.
As for London's future status as a financial centre - well, passporting will not be prioritised by Theresa May, so yes, Germany could well end up snaffling financial services from us and decimate the City. But if that's what happens, then hey, that's what we voted for - it's not like they invaded and nicked them; we gifted them the opportunity. Course they'll take it. Anyone would.
The old fart OXO is right Pete his generation has seen it all before , relax and enjoy your football & hobbies, ignore the so called experts and politicians , they are there to generate a stash of cash for themselves not there country .
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Dipdodah - of course it's not being pushed by Germany. The EU is by design an institution in which all members contribute equally. It's not the Second World War any more! If you feel threatened by Germany it's probably just because they do a lot of things much better than we do them - simple as that. But it's not like they waltz into the European Parliament and everyone cowers. The BBC reports it was actually Finland that kicked off the debate - and that's all it is at this stage.
As for London's future status as a financial centre - well, passporting will not be prioritised by Theresa May, so yes, Germany could well end up snaffling financial services from us and decimate the City. But if that's what happens, then hey, that's what we voted for - it's not like they invaded and nicked them; we gifted them the opportunity. Course they'll take it. Anyone would.
The old fart OXO is right Pete his generation has seen it all before , relax and enjoy your football & hobbies, ignore the so called experts and politicians , they are there to generate a stash of cash for themselves not there country .
Working in an industry that depends on EU regulatory alliance, I could lose my job after Brexit if - as rumoured - the office is relocated to Germany. But yeah, I'll just relax and enjoy my hobbies.
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Dipdodah - of course it's not being pushed by Germany. The EU is by design an institution in which all members contribute equally. It's not the Second World War any more! If you feel threatened by Germany it's probably just because they do a lot of things much better than we do them - simple as that. But it's not like they waltz into the European Parliament and everyone cowers. The BBC reports it was actually Finland that kicked off the debate - and that's all it is at this stage.
As for London's future status as a financial centre - well, passporting will not be prioritised by Theresa May, so yes, Germany could well end up snaffling financial services from us and decimate the City. But if that's what happens, then hey, that's what we voted for - it's not like they invaded and nicked them; we gifted them the opportunity. Course they'll take it. Anyone would.
The old fart OXO is right Pete his generation has seen it all before , relax and enjoy your football & hobbies, ignore the so called experts and politicians , they are there to generate a stash of cash for themselves not there country .
Working in an industry that depends on EU regulatory alliance, I could lose my job after Brexit if - as rumoured - the office is relocated to Germany. But yeah, I'll just relax and enjoy my hobbies.
Certainly hope you don't Pete , in the murky world of politics and industry many rumours are started for ulterior motives .
Sometimes redundentcy leads to better things .
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Dipdodah - of course it's not being pushed by Germany. The EU is by design an institution in which all members contribute equally. It's not the Second World War any more! If you feel threatened by Germany it's probably just because they do a lot of things much better than we do them - simple as that. But it's not like they waltz into the European Parliament and everyone cowers. The BBC reports it was actually Finland that kicked off the debate - and that's all it is at this stage.
As for London's future status as a financial centre - well, passporting will not be prioritised by Theresa May, so yes, Germany could well end up snaffling financial services from us and decimate the City. But if that's what happens, then hey, that's what we voted for - it's not like they invaded and nicked them; we gifted them the opportunity. Course they'll take it. Anyone would.
The old fart OXO is right Pete his generation has seen it all before , relax and enjoy your football & hobbies, ignore the so called experts and politicians , they are there to generate a stash of cash for themselves not there country .
Working in an industry that depends on EU regulatory alliance, I could lose my job after Brexit if - as rumoured - the office is relocated to Germany. But yeah, I'll just relax and enjoy my hobbies.
Not good Pete, hope all works out in the end. Hopefully just scaremongering.
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A British contingent of clapped-out binosaurs, consisting of Blair, Major, Adonis, Osbourne, Clegg, Corbyn etc, are making an emergency trip to Italy.
Apparently most Italians are too thick, un-informed, and just generally too dim-witted to know what they voted for yesterday, and these guys are going to tell them just that in their usual non-patronising manner :o
Meanwhile back in the UK the BBC/EUBC choose to lead with a supposedly asthmatic Wiggins, and the burst water main just south of Watford......nothing to see in Italy, move along ladies and gentlemen :-X
The leader of Lega Nord, Matteo Salvini, when asked why the pro EU parties did so badly, observed:-
"Europe has been punishing us for the last 15 years, we are worse off than 15 years ago. Europe can go f**k itself" :o :o
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A British contingent of clapped-out binosaurs, consisting of Blair, Major, Adonis, Osbourne, Clegg, Corbyn etc, are making an emergency trip to Italy.
Apparently most Italians are too thick, un-informed, and just generally too dim-witted to know what they voted for yesterday, and these guys are going to tell them just that in their usual non-patronising manner :o
Meanwhile back in the UK the BBC/EUBC choose to lead with a supposedly asthmatic Wiggins, and the burst water main just south of Watford......nothing to see in Italy, move along ladies and gentlemen :-X
The leader of Lega Nord, Matteo Salvini, when asked why the pro EU parties did so badly, observed:-
"Europe has been punishing us for the last 15 years, we are worse off than 15 years ago. Europe can go f**k itself" :o :o
Nearly 50% of the voters, voted for non EU supporting parties. I hope I am wrong, but Europe seems to be heading ever so far to the right.
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And yet you're actively supporting a new political landscape that will be an absolute *dream* for the far right (and the far left for that matter - they're both as bad as each other, so please don't try and paint me as some salivating Communist Corbyn fan!).
I mean, do you not ever stop to look at the people who crave the demise of the EU - the unapologetic but genuine fascists and racists (and I'm not talking about the average voter by the way, but the figureheads who are pushing this), as well as those who probably wouldn't mind a bit of socialist totalitarianism - and wonder, just perhaps, if there's something a bit iffy about it all? There's nothing about the rhetoric of nationalism espoused by pro-Brexit politicians that concerns you a tad?
Or what about the noticeable rise in anti-intellectualism? Nothing about that troubles you? I mean, it really wasn't that long ago that the same people who would push for Brexit today were marching teachers, doctors, lawyers, professors, journalists and academics out into the woods in Poland and shooting them in the head. Not a *bit* suspicious? I'm just saying, because nationalism *always* ends up going one way.... and it's never a good one.
I'm not saying Michael Gove is a genocidal maniac, of course. Nor is Daniel Hannan. But then again, these things always start with a softening of the norms of civilised society, something Donald Trump is doing over in the States too.
Nationalism - whether it's from the far right or the far left - is an absolute disease. It's almost like none of history's most salient and bloodiest lessons have been learned.
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"Nationalism - whether it's from the far right or the far left - is an absolute disease. It's almost like none of history's most salient and bloodiest lessons have been learned."
a valid point Pete...however when you see the landscape of the country you grew up in being changed irrevocably and not always for the better by a religion/mind set so totally alien to our own at what point do you say "enough"??
please please do not point the far right/racist/fascist finger at me... i can assure i am none of those.
but however much i disagreed with politicians in the past i can see their statements coming to reality.. this is both sad and VERY frightening.
i have more time behind me than i have in front of me and what world my grandkids will grow up into saddens.
this is not just nostalgic rant from an older bloke but a genuine fear.
the far right (a loathe some group) will rise due to the appeasement being done daily by governments.
the far left now is a mouthy group who simply try to shout down any body with opposing thoughts..
i see Luton/Oldham/Blackburn/Southall where "british" people are carrying posters etc DEMANDING the end of the West and our culture.
it doesn't bode well
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"Nationalism - whether it's from the far right or the far left - is an absolute disease. It's almost like none of history's most salient and bloodiest lessons have been learned."
a valid point Pete...however when you see the landscape of the country you grew up in being changed irrevocably and not always for the better by a religion/mind set so totally alien to our own at what point do you say "enough"??
please please do not point the far right/racist/fascist finger at me... i can assure i am none of those.
but however much i disagreed with politicians in the past i can see their statements coming to reality.. this is both sad and VERY frightening.
i have more time behind me than i have in front of me and what world my grandkids will grow up into saddens.
this is not just nostalgic rant from an older bloke but a genuine fear.
the far right (a loathe some group) will rise due to the appeasement being done daily by governments.
the far left now is a mouthy group who simply try to shout down any body with opposing thoughts..
i see Luton/Oldham/Blackburn/Southall where "british" people are carrying posters etc DEMANDING the end of the West and our culture.
it doesn't bode well
Certainly did not point the finger at you - I quite clearly stated I was referring to political figureheads rather than ordinary voters. Although you have just alluded to Muslims there, and I'm not sure what they have to do with the EU?
Something that HAS been blamed on the EU is the demise of the fishing industry. Nigel Farage and his ilk said that Brexit would mean we could "take back control" of our waters by ditching the CFP. This is palpable nonsense, and indeed within the last hour the EU has stated it will only be offering us a deal in which "existing reciprocal access to fishing waters and resources [will] be maintained." So basically, nothing will change in the fishing industry.
So Farage was lying.
Wonder why he lied? Puzzling.... isn't it?
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:) never thought you were pointing at me Pete, however.. anything said not totally PC ends up with a race card etc being bandied .. its just an easy response by some (not you)
i did allude to a group that now move amongst us.. with Merkel thinking its just dandy to let 000's more come in will be a disaster. some will assimilate and get on with it.. some will feel alien and sadly some will BE MADE to feel alien. These will become a huge problem. So it is an EU problem.
i have some very good Hindu friends and talking to them is worrying.. not only when they speak about India but Southall (which is the adjacent borough to them) All sorts of issues, rarely reported for fear of "upsetting" people
the streets are at a standstill near one mosque because they're on their knees in the street as they all cant get in.. and they will not move... the police treat it as a "no go " zone.
is this right?
Did the fear of upsetting the grooming gangs in Rotherham and Rochdale benefit the girls families??
again how far will this go until EDL types say "F you"... and it kicks off.
i worry for my friends .. they have brown faces but observe our laws etc, but these far right doylems will only see a non white face
i tapped this out with a heavy heart Pete.....
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:) never thought you were pointing at me Pete, however.. anything said not totally PC ends up with a race card etc being bandied .. its just an easy response by some (not you)
i did allude to a group that now move amongst us.. with Merkel thinking its just dandy to let 000's more come in will be a disaster. some will assimilate and get on with it.. some will feel alien and sadly some will BE MADE to feel alien. These will become a huge problem. So it is an EU problem.
i have some very good Hindu friends and talking to them is worrying.. not only when they speak about India but Southall (which is the adjacent borough to them) All sorts of issues, rarely reported for fear of "upsetting" people
the streets are at a standstill near one mosque because they're on their knees in the street as they all cant get in.. and they will not move... the police treat it as a "no go " zone.
is this right?
Did the fear of upsetting the grooming gangs in Rotherham and Rochdale benefit the girls families??
again how far will this go until EDL types say "F you"... and it kicks off.
i worry for my friends .. they have brown faces but observe our laws etc, but these far right doylems will only see a non white face
i tapped this out with a heavy heart Pete.....
Howmanynames2pick, when I started this topic two years ago, I did not want it to turn into a racial discussion. The way things are evolving in Britain and across Europe, now makes this unavoidable.
I totally agree with both the above posts. I congratulate you on putting your point across in an articulate manner, touching the problem,yet not being racist.
I like the fact we are an Island race. I like our culture. I like our history ( even thou some are trying to air brush it out ). I like our Christian beliefs. I like the village pub and I can go on. These are disappearing . This could be down to natural evolvement, and most likely is. It just seems to be accelerating at an alarming pace.
People look for someone or something to blame. So they vote to leave the EU, or vote for some far right racist party.
I believe everyone is equal, I hate snobbery, I hate homophobia, I hate racism and I hate sexism, but most of all I hate people who abuse these equal rights acts. One of the main reasons I voted out was because of the meddling by The Court of Human Rights. Some scumbag from a different nation can come here Murder rape or commit an act of terrorism but cannot be deported because it infringes on his human rights.
I also fear for this country, I, like you fear that the people will say enough is enough. I may be selfish, but the way things are going I am glad I may not be about in 20 years time.
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One of the main reasons I voted out was because of the meddling by The Court of Human Rights. Some scumbag from a different nation can come here Murder rape or commit an act of terrorism but cannot be deported because it infringes on his human rights.
So you're quite happy to make millions of families in the UK poorer; see the decimation of the NHS as staffing levels drop; farmers have their crops rotting in the fields unpicked, higher levels of unemployment as big companies desert the UK for Europe; the housing crisis worsen because there's nobody to build much needed new houses and troubles reignite in Ireland over border issues. Just because you think it will mean a handful of criminals can be deported rather than face justice in British jails? Which it actually doesn't as the European Court of Human Rights has nothing to do with the European Union.
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The Government's own analysis predicts a 7.7% drop in GDP if we go the the Brexit that Rees-Mogg and his ilk so crave. 7.7%. For comparison, the crash of 2008 was 2%.
I don't know how it is in Boston, but here in Nottingham many roads are falling apart and there's no money to fix them. This country is actually decaying before our eyes.
Imagine how bad it'll be with 7.7% wiped off? Honestly. This is what we want? This isn't making the UK great again; it's destroying it. And for what? Still no-one can say.
Anyway - enough of this. Time to get pissed at York. See you there!
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The Government's own analysis predicts a 7.7% drop in GDP if we go the the Brexit that Rees-Mogg and his ilk so crave. 7.7%. For comparison, the crash of 2008 was 2%.
I don't know how it is in Boston, but here in Nottingham many roads are falling apart and there's no money to fix them. This country is actually decaying before our eyes.
Imagine how bad it'll be with 7.7% wiped off? Honestly. This is what we want? This isn't making the UK great again; it's destroying it. And for what? Still no-one can say.
Anyway - enough of this. Time to get pissed at York. See you there!
Yes it's exactly the same at Boston Pete , Brexit or no Brexit the concerns you have raised will be justified due to governments over the last 20 years or so who have continually overspent . Without the referendum we would still be in the mire , spend today and leave the mess to future generations to sort it out is the strategy . The politicians who present us the "facts" (guesswork) of the outcome are the same politicians who endorsed the policies that landed us with such debt .
In Boston many of the comments from the national media exposes these experts are out of touch . for example "lack of intergration" , one thing that brings joy to my heart when collecting grandkids from school is the genuine warmth between "us and then " , well done to teachers and parents .
I'm yet to see a confrontation between a local and a immigrant on the Boston streets .
Often on National TV we see NFU spokesperson say Brexit would be a disaster for farming , recently speaking to the owner of a business in south Lincs who depend solely on farmers for their trade commented that the vast majority of their costomers (farmers) backed Brexit .
As for the "scum , murderers and rapists etc " all the immigants that I converse with entilely agree they should be sent back to where they came from . And speaking to those who have attended the scene of one of these horrific attacks will I suggest fully endorse this view .
I would say to those sitting in the armchair and listening to so called independant experts in the media,
get amongst the general public and listen to a more balanced veiw . I have to say most our Polish , lithuanian and Latvian friends take a more relaxed and pragmatic veiw of the outcome than most of us .
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All those predictions from project fear failed on the voters, and now we are getting a project fear mark two and to be honest its getting all a bit boring now. We voted, and if the result was remain I would have accepted it, even as a leave voter. Even now, how can anyone despite who they are on the political or professional ladder claim what is going to happen in an unknown future. They can't ! We had think tanks pre Brexit and everything they stated didn't materialise. It's guesswork, the same as the leave voters judgement was guesswork. but they had seen what the EU offered and preferred something different. You weigh up the pros and cons and vote accordingly. Calls for a second referendum is wrong. Think of politics in a football way, you are not going to call for a reply just because the result didn't go your way now are you ?
We have to accept in life that society is changing, communities are changing and to reflect on this politics are changing. Just look at what is happening in other European nations, people feel cheated, at a loss and demoralised with what I call "bu****it politics". We are now looking for someone with some sense and honesty in delivering what the majority of the people voted for.
What direction do we go here in this Country in terms of parties. I am at a loss as who to trust or even vote for. May is weak at delivering Brexit, Corbyn's mass spending plans with little in the pot would have the nation crippled within five years in my honest opinion and this is not knocking Labour voters I will add, the Lib Dems are not strong enough, Greens offer very little and UKIP are now broken. Maybe a new party should form? Of course, these are my views and not the views of everyone else. I respect who you voted for and what your wishes are for the future.
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What part of democracy do the 100000 marchers in London not understand ,if more of the population
Voted maybe the outcome would of been different but right or wrong (only time will tell not a crystal ball ) we as a country voted to leave .if we have a second vote does it mean every time a election is held if we don't like who gets into power we can have a rerun I don't think so .
I am not saying we will be better or worse of by leaving ,but to have the best chance for a good deal our leaders need a free hand in the negotiations ,without it Europe will walk all over us .
On a positive note there was a small piece in yesterday's paper Saying that in a survey 75% of shareholders are pleased with the way the stock marking is performing since the vote to leave .
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You are right Spannerman. Two years ago the lack of turnout in London contributed to the bexit vote. Five minutes of a ten minute news bulletin yesterday was dedicated to an antibrexit march. Yet a counter march of over 25,000 hardly got a mention.
We have to show a united front against the EU else our negotiating power will be watered down.
I worry we are going to take a bad deal.
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Come on Spannerman , leave us in peace . We've had 3 months of non- brexit on here , we've got the world cup to enjoy and you give Dippy an opening to get on his soapbox again . Sack May and put Southgate in charge he'll sort out the remainers . :)
More importantly we still need some strikers .
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Now now GHM, nearly 73000 views someone must be interested.
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Interestingly, following a meeting with a number of business representatives, the Government has today finally conceded it would take at least five years to create a brand new customs system from scratch, and probably a decade to create one that would work for smaller businesses - long beyond any transitional deal offered to us by the EU. Of course this won't make the headlines, but it certainly will feed into what happens at Chequers on Friday. Put very simply, "no deal" Brexit is dead, and those campaigning for one are about to be very firmly put in their place. They may well bring down Theresa May in rebellion but all that will do will open the door for a Corbyn government, and he won't pursue it either. They've lost the argument.
It's nice to see the reality of the world in which we operate finally hitting home with the Government, even as some of the hysterical ideological vandals send letters to the PM insisting we simply walk away. Cabinet ministers are finally - FINALLY - coming to understand it is a delusional fantasy and a technical impossibility. It's only taken two years....
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Sorry GHM soapbox time.
WHAT A SHAMBLES.
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Sorry GHM soapbox time.
WHAT A SHAMBLES.
And yet entirely predictable. More businesses have come out against hard Brexit today. It ain't happening, no matter how many people quit.
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Always followed this thread but never commented, well here goes. It appears I and the majority of plebs misread the polling card where voting to leave really meant staying in and this being the case I will not be voting ever again in any form of poll devised by a corrupt British Government of what ever persuasion. As democracy has clearly been kicked into touch I will fiddle what I can out of this Government with a clear conscience just as those in both Houses do.
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Always followed this thread but never commented, well here goes. It appears I and the majority of plebs misread the polling card where voting to leave really meant staying in and this being the case I will not be voting ever again in any form of poll devised by a corrupt British Government of what ever persuasion. As democracy has clearly been kicked into touch I will fiddle what I can out of this Government with a clear conscience just as those in both Houses do.
Today is the day democracy died. My father ( who was Irish ) fought in the second world war to protect democracy ( he volunteered ).
No deal is better than a bad deal, and boy is this a bad deal.
The gist of it, as I see it is let's stay in the EU but not by name. Which also means no vote no say, they will trample all over us.
Well said Oxo
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Always followed this thread but never commented, well here goes. It appears I and the majority of plebs misread the polling card where voting to leave really meant staying in and this being the case I will not be voting ever again in any form of poll devised by a corrupt British Government of what ever persuasion. As democracy has clearly been kicked into touch I will fiddle what I can out of this Government with a clear conscience just as those in both Houses do.
It was too simple a question for an outrageously complex proposal. No-one really understood how intertwined we are with the mechanisms of the single market. Which was, of course, Thatcher's brainchild, and something that many businesses in the UK now rely on since their entire supply chain is based upon being within it.
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Always followed this thread but never commented, well here goes. It appears I and the majority of plebs misread the polling card where voting to leave really meant staying in and this being the case I will not be voting ever again in any form of poll devised by a corrupt British Government of what ever persuasion. As democracy has clearly been kicked into touch I will fiddle what I can out of this Government with a clear conscience just as those in both Houses do.
Today is the day democracy died. My father ( who was Irish ) fought in the second world war to protect democracy ( he volunteered ).
No deal is better than a bad deal, and boy is this a bad deal.
The gist of it, as I see it is let's stay in the EU but not by name. Which also means no vote no say, they will trample all over us.
Well said Oxo
The government in its current guise is poised to fail. Don't give up on democracy just yet - you may yet get your dream ticket of a Rees-Mogg led Tory Government delivering us a no-deal Brexit and decimating the economy (but at least we'll be out and you will be happy).
On the flip side, a General Election could deliver your worst nightmare - a Lib-Dem/Labour coalition, with the Lib-Dems hauling Corbyn back from his own vision of a no-deal Brexit (one that would allow him to inflict his brand of socialism on the country) and pursuing a much softer EEA/Norway style deal.
Democracy eh? Fun and games.
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Always followed this thread but never commented, well here goes. It appears I and the majority of plebs misread the polling card where voting to leave really meant staying in and this being the case I will not be voting ever again in any form of poll devised by a corrupt British Government of what ever persuasion. As democracy has clearly been kicked into touch I will fiddle what I can out of this Government with a clear conscience just as those in both Houses do.
It was too simple a question for an outrageously complex proposal. No-one really understood how intertwined we are with the mechanisms of the single market. Which was, of course, Thatcher's brainchild, and something that many businesses in the UK now rely on since their entire supply chain is based upon being within it.
Pete I understand what you are saying but it was this Government who dreamed up the wording of the proposal under estimating the feelings of the majority, but now they must not be allowed to do what you are doing and kicking us voters in the teeth and demeaning the ordinary people of this Nation. By the way I hated Thatcher and all she stood for but at least she always did what she said she would not like this load of tossers.
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Always followed this thread but never commented, well here goes. It appears I and the majority of plebs misread the polling card where voting to leave really meant staying in and this being the case I will not be voting ever again in any form of poll devised by a corrupt British Government of what ever persuasion. As democracy has clearly been kicked into touch I will fiddle what I can out of this Government with a clear conscience just as those in both Houses do.
Today is the day democracy died. My father ( who was Irish ) fought in the second world war to protect democracy ( he volunteered ).
No deal is better than a bad deal, and boy is this a bad deal.
The gist of it, as I see it is let's stay in the EU but not by name. Which also means no vote no say, they will trample all over us.
Well said Oxo
The government in its current guise is poised to fail. Don't give up on democracy just yet - you may yet get your dream ticket of a Rees-Mogg led Tory Government delivering us a no-deal Brexit and decimating the economy (but at least we'll be out and you will be happy).
On the flip side, a General Election could deliver your worst nightmare - a Lib-Dem/Labour coalition, with the Lib-Dems hauling Corbyn back from his own vision of a no-deal Brexit (one that would allow him to inflict his brand of socialism on the country) and pursuing a much softer EEA/Norway style deal.
Democracy eh? Fun and games.
Read my post again Pete. I stated I will no longer vote on any issue put forward by any corrupt British Government of whatever persuasion and that includes Labour/Lib-Dems the point I am making is that they are all corrupt and I will look after my interests my way. Anyway, Up The Pilgrims there is much more important issues than Brexit a word that now means nothing.
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The voters were lied to. Simple
Lied to re the increased NHS spending and lied to re immigration
But the majority fell for it
That's why we are where we are. Gullible people buying into lies from the leave campaign
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I feel sorry that people feel betrayed, but a "no deal" Brexit was a delusional fantasy no sane government could inflict on the country, as has been repeatedly pointed out again and again on this thread, and in the papers and everywhere else.
But again: it's entirely plausible we soon end up with a different government, one that isn't sane at all. It might be a hard-right Tory coup that crashes us out and begins a regulatory bonfire that leaves ordinary workers booted out of jobs and without rights/pensions/sick pay when they do eventually find other work, or a hard-left Labour/Momentum coup that achieves much the same thing but allows Corbyn to reshape our shattered economy towards his vision of a socialist Britain.
If you lust after a hard brexit, is this really what you want? Why?
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The voters were lied to. Simple
Lied to re the increased NHS spending and lied to re immigration
But the majority fell for it
That's why we are where we are. Gullible people buying into lies from the leave campaign
I agree the voters were lied to.
The biggest lie being on the voting form.
Democracy!!! At least in Russia they know they are getting shafted.
I am like OXO no point in voting again.
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Well Tom and Jerry, never been called gullible before. I believe in democracy and I voted to leave what I believe to be a corrupt syndicate that misuses public funds and continues to erode countries identities. I knew times would be hard if the out vote won never expecting it would.
So now not only am I a racist and bigoted I’m also gullible. Please don’t subscribe to the view that the majority didn’t really have good reasons to vote out and hadn’t thought long and hard about which box to put the cross in.
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And the Leave Campaign has just been fined for overspending on its ad campaign too I think
Lies and breaking the rules. Quality organisation eh?
If this all goes t**ts up as it may well done it'd be worth remembering that when we voted to come out things weren't really that bad. But it's a vote for change I guess
Interesting times ahead
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And the Leave Campaign has just been fined for overspending on its ad campaign too I think
Lies and breaking the rules. Quality organisation eh?
If this all goes t**ts up as it may well done it'd be worth remembering that when we voted to come out things weren't really that bad. But it's a vote for change I guess
Interesting times ahead
So nine million of YOUR money was not spent on leaflets to advice us to remain ( short memory me thinks )
So Tom and Jerry, you are happy to be controlled by Europe with no say, no vote and no chance of change.
That is what you have to look forward.
They have lied to the Majority, they have lied to the minority as well but you choose not to admit it.
A sad state of affairs I am afraid .
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And the Leave Campaign has just been fined for overspending on its ad campaign too I think
Lies and breaking the rules. Quality organisation eh?
If this all goes t**ts up as it may well done it'd be worth remembering that when we voted to come out things weren't really that bad. But it's a vote for change I guess
Interesting times ahead
So nine million of YOUR money was not spent on leaflets to advice us to remain ( short memory me thinks )
So Bodge, you are happy to be controlled by Europe with no say, no vote and no chance of change.
That is what you have to look forward.
They have lied to the Majority, they have lied to the minority as well but they choose not to admit it.
A sad state of affairs I am afraid Bodge.
Mick I don't think it is Bodge you should be referring to. The ridiculous comments have come from the cartoon character which more or less says it all.
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Sorry Mel, I shall change it. Sorry Bodge :-[
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I was/am a supporter of the remain viewpoint. However, like it or not the result was pretty clear. I have always thought that to attempt to challenge that result as many of neoliberal persuasion have, is very dangerous for democracy. At the point where societies lose faith in democracy, history tells us they tend to turn towards extremists. And yes I know the implications of Brexit before anyone lectures me.
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So Tom and Jerry, you are happy to be controlled by Europe with no say, no vote and no chance of change.
That is what you have to look forward.
No, that's exactly what YOU'VE voted for. We had a seat at the table before. Now we don't, and if we want to continue trading with our biggest trading partner we're going to have to abide by all their rules/regulations without having any role in helping formulate them.
This is what you wanted, you won, so this is what you're going to get.
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I agree with you Pete
It was ok before - now it might not be. But, by the same token, we don't know what it would have been like if the vote for change hadn't happened
Everyone's entitled to their opinion. Doesn't mean anyone's right or wrong either, that's what reasoned debate is all about
I just hope our great country remains great in its new guise. Time will tell
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So Tom and Jerry, you are happy to be controlled by Europe with no say, no vote and no chance of change.
That is what you have to look forward.
No, that's exactly what YOU'VE voted for. We had a seat at the table before. Now we don't, and if we want to continue trading with our biggest trading partner we're going to have to abide by all their rules/regulations without having any role in helping formulate them.
This is what you wanted, you won, so this is what you're going to get.
No Pete, this is NOT what we voted for and you know it.
What is happening is an old pals act, whispering in corridors and lifts, carving up the money and being part of the gravy train which is the EU.
It is corrupt. Take a look around you, have you ever seen the roads in such a state? Have you seen the NHS in such a mess? Have you ever seen the Police so underfunded? Well I have not. With 66 million people in this country and growing where does the money go? I and 17.5 million people have had enough, that is why we voted out.
I am not stupid, I know how intertwined we are and how complex the leaving process is. So remainers think we are, we have been called brain dead, phlebs etc.
We voted OUT, we did not vote let's stay in but pretend we are out.
We are weak, stand up to the bullies.
I hate Trump and what he stands for, but at least he does what he says.
We have been sold down the line, and YOU know it.
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The things you've just pointed out to me are the result of Tory cuts to local services. The EU is no more responsible for the state of our roads than I am for the weather on Mars.
And if you think the hard Brexit you crave will fix the state of our roads... I can't help you.
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Pete, surely, as one of only three net contributors to the EU, GB would be better off looking after our own, rather than paying towards other countries inadequacies.
The price of membership is far too high.
Mind you, I do agree with you on something, would the Tories put the money back into the infrastructure of this run down country? I doubt it
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Yeah, I agree our contributions were probably too high and our failure to negotiate them down certainly gave ammunition to certain toxic individuals who hate the EU for ideological, not budgetary, reasons. But on a practical level, a no deal Brexit would crash the economy such that any savings made by no longer paying into the budget would look inconsequential.
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Yeah, I agree our contributions were probably too high and our failure to negotiate them down certainly gave ammunition to certain toxic individuals who hate the EU for ideological, not budgetary, reasons. But on a practical level, a no deal Brexit would crash the economy such that any savings made by no longer paying into the budget would look inconsequential.
We will agree to disagree Pete. Ever thought about going into politics ;) and sort this bloody mess out.
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The White Paper confirms that Remain won the referendum.
It was always an in/in referendum, if our out vote was worth anything they would never have given it to us in the first place.
This Chequers deal has been cobbled together by May, in association with the CBI, and the EU quisling Robbins. Its bad enough as it stands but when the EU have finished with it, assuming they don't automatically bin it off, it will be far worse. This country is being set up to become an EU colony; free movement has been re-branded as enhanced mobility, the supposed veto on changes to EU regulations and law is an illusion, and the Common Rule Book is the EU's rule book. We will be a vassal state to the EU with something akin to the associative agreement that Morocco has.
The Referendum and May's 'Brexit means Brexit' crap has been an elaborate charade from start to finish, Brexit in name only is what she's been working towards all along.
If this goes through democracy will have been overturned in this country in an effort to keep big businesses, their shareholders, and the EU happy.
May, Robbins, Cameron, & Osbourne should all be rounded up and f****d off into the Tower where they belong >:( >:( >:( :police:
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Ed, May's Brexit white paper crosses several EU red lines and will be binned off by Brussels, don't you worry about that.
So while 'no deal' is dead politically, there is a real chance we may somehow stumble into it anyway. You may yet get the hard brexit you crave, but it will come at the cost of hundreds of thousands of jobs reliant on JIT supply chains. It's a shame you don't seem to care about the workers who will be cast off into permanent poverty as a result. Is it really a price worth paying?
Actually, you don't need to answer that. You clearly do think it's a price worth paying, or you wouldn't still be calling those seeking to preserve business interests as traitors. Millions of people think the same. So in some ways, I'm starting to come around to Janan Ganesh thoughts, who said "Brexit is an idea whose only effective rebuttal is its own implementation." Much like prohibition, perhaps we need to actually suffer a hard Brexit for you to finally comprehend why it's such a terrible, terrible idea.
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https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6765666/footage-of-jean-claude-juncker-staggering-around-nato-summit-sparks-claims-eu-president-was-drunk-on-the-job/
Says it all >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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Actually, you don't need to answer that. You clearly do think it's a price worth paying, or you wouldn't still be calling those seeking to preserve business interests as traitors. Millions of people think the same. So in some ways, I'm starting to come around to Janan Ganesh thoughts, who said "Brexit is an idea whose only effective rebuttal is its own implementation." Much like prohibition, perhaps we need to actually suffer a hard Brexit for you to finally comprehend why it's such a terrible, terrible idea.
I think I agree - as much as I’d like the current turmoil to result in the whole stupid thing being scrapped, I think in the long run it would simply result in an ultra-toxic political environment where we bounce between hard left socialists selected by Momentum uni students, and right wing headcases like Rees-Mogg. You only have to look at this thread to see that. The idea that Whitehall is some sort of Illuminati organisation seeking to make us a satellite state of Brussels is ludicrous. In reality, they’re hard working and intelligent professionals seeking to do the best for Britain (damage limitation) in spite of the hopelessness of their political bosses. ‘Lions led by donkeys’ is a strong phrase, but in the right spirit here. But people clearly believe the former.
One problem is probably the fact that a genuine ‘no-deal’ Brexit is so astonishingly catastrophic that it is hard to believe. The Independent ran an article the other day highlighting the fact that if the all-Ireland single energy market is not preserved (it wouldn’t be by default), the government is looking at recquisitoning thousands of military electricity generators from places like Afghanistan and putting them on barges in the Irish Sea, just to keep the lights in NI. It’s insane. People like Boris Johnson prefer to take part in photo shoots of their resignation letters rather than think about details like these.
Obviously the trouble with trying hard Brexit and then seeking to rejoin the EU/EEA once we realise it’s a disaster has the disadvantage that we will lose our budget rebate and probably our Euro/Schengen opt outs too.
I find it simply incredible that people still side with the likes of Johnson and Davis, throwing their toys out of the pram and criticising May’s attempt at compromise. Not once have Brexiteers offered any sort of plan for the future relationship themselves. They’re simply overgrown manchildren - the small time teenage vandals who’ve accidentally set fire to the church and then sit back and criticise the efforts of the fire service to put it out.
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Actually, you don't need to answer that. You clearly do think it's a price worth paying, or you wouldn't still be calling those seeking to preserve business interests as traitors. Millions of people think the same. So in some ways, I'm starting to come around to Janan Ganesh thoughts, who said "Brexit is an idea whose only effective rebuttal is its own implementation." Much like prohibition, perhaps we need to actually suffer a hard Brexit for you to finally comprehend why it's such a terrible, terrible idea.
I think I agree - as much as I’d like the current turmoil to result in the whole stupid thing being scrapped, I think in the long run it would simply result in an ultra-toxic political environment where we bounce between hard left socialists selected by Momentum uni students, and right wing headcases like Rees-Mogg. You only have to look at this thread to see that. The idea that Whitehall is some sort of Illuminati organisation seeking to make us a satellite state of Brussels is ludicrous. In reality, they’re hard working and intelligent professionals seeking to do the best for Britain (damage limitation) in spite of the hopelessness of their political bosses. ‘Lions led by donkeys’ is a strong phrase, but in the right spirit here. But people clearly believe the former.
One problem is probably the fact that a genuine ‘no-deal’ Brexit is so astonishingly catastrophic that it is hard to believe. The Independent ran an article the other day highlighting the fact that if the all-Ireland single energy market is not preserved (it wouldn’t be by default), the government is looking at recquisitoning thousands of military electricity generators from places like Afghanistan and putting them on barges in the Irish Sea, just to keep the lights in NI. It’s insane. People like Boris Johnson prefer to take part in photo shoots of their resignation letters rather than think about details like these.
Obviously the trouble with trying hard Brexit and then seeking to rejoin the EU/EEA once we realise it’s a disaster has the disadvantage that we will lose our budget rebate and probably our Euro/Schengen opt outs too.
I find it simply incredible that people still side with the likes of Johnson and Davis, throwing their toys out of the pram and criticising May’s attempt at compromise. Not once have Brexiteers offered any sort of plan for the future relationship themselves. They’re simply overgrown manchildren - the small time teenage vandals who’ve accidentally set fire to the church and then sit back and criticise the efforts of the fire service to put it out.
Absolutely this.
But of course, if you try dealing with facts and reality rather than baseless ideology and "out means out" delusion, you simply get accused of "patronising the plebs" or "overturning democracy" - both of which are demonstrably false. It's perfectly possible, if very difficult, to respect the result of the referendum while maintaining close enough ties to our largest trading partner such that our economy isn't bulldozed into the dirt.
We're nearly 50 pages into this thread now and there's still not been a single cogent argument advanced for leaving the EU that can't be demolished in about 10 seconds.
So let's have "no deal" then - and we'll see who's right.
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Justine Greening today calls for a second referendum >:(
She wants the voting paper to have three options.
1, Remain in the EU
2, Mrs May's proposals
3, No deal
I did not hear the option of leave. So let's put the vote back to the public, ponce it up a little bit, and make sure voters in London get off their backsides and vote and they get the result they wanted in the first place. A cunning plan to show democracy lives me thinks >:(
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All this 'we're right and was always right' coming from the remain camp is ludicrous, name a couple of things which were predicted by project fear which have materialized thus far?! The Brexit result was simple, people DID know what they were voting for...Cameron stated pre-voting that a vote to leave is a vote to leave the single market. People knew that a leave vote was to also demand breaking ties with the EU's laws, gaining control of our borders with stricter immigration control, bringing back control of our fishing grounds, investment in UK jobs for UK workers, money saved from the EU bill put into things like the NHS etc etc....
Why are so many European Countries now finding themselves seeing such right-wing parties heading their polls if nothing is wrong with the EU? A pattern is forming, so many people in so many nations are seeing that the EU is a broken project and they are voting accordingly especially in nations under pressure from mass uncontrolled immigration. We can't get away from the latter, it is a problem which has upset so many societies and in Boston alone is the main reason over 75% voted out.
Accceptance of the Brexit result was never going to happen, there will always be, like in football, those on a winning side and those on a loosing side. But as in football, when you don't like the result you cannot demand a replay!
I am sure i will get shot down for my views, but after all, they are just that...my views. I don't proclaim that they are right nor wrong, but the same goes for the remain camp, we believe in our views. But we have to now just get on with each other and get on with Brexit as it was a clearly understood vote both before and afterwards.
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Justine Greening today calls for a second referendum >:(
She wants the voting paper to have three options.
1, Remain in the EU
2, Mrs May's proposals
3, No deal
I did not hear the option of leave. So let's put the vote back to the public, ponce it up a little bit, and make sure voters in London get off their backsides and vote and they get the result they wanted in the first place. A cunning plan to show democracy lives me thinks >:(
"No deal" is the Brexit you want though isn't it?
The problem you have is that if the stark consequences of such a deal are laid out to the electorate, no sane person would vote for it. It's suicide. And since we've not actually bothered building any of the infrastructure needed to implement it, it's a good 5-6 years before you'll get it. And that's assuming the legal issues with WTO rules and the border in ROI can be resolved.
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Justine Greening today calls for a second referendum >:(
She wants the voting paper to have three options.
1, Remain in the EU
2, Mrs May's proposals
3, No deal
I did not hear the option of leave. So let's put the vote back to the public, ponce it up a little bit, and make sure voters in London get off their backsides and vote and they get the result they wanted in the first place. A cunning plan to show democracy lives me thinks >:(
"No deal" is the Brexit you want though isn't it?
The problem you have is that if the stark consequences of such a deal are laid out to the electorate, no sane person would vote for it. It's suicide. And since we've not actually bothered building any of the infrastructure needed to implement it, it's a good 5-6 years before you'll get it. And that's assuming the legal issues with WTO rules and the border in ROI can be resolved.
Burn down the Disco hang the blessed dj because the music that they constantly play it says nothing to me about my Life.
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Quoting a Smiths line about your life being miserable ain't gonna build you a 500 acre lorry park in Kent.
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Quoting a Smiths line about your life being miserable ain't gonna build you a 500 acre lorry park in Kent.
You have given so much evidence on a BUFC football forum that u & dip brexit who ever will always b "The boys with the Thorns in their Sides"
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@ Green Hats Mate
My local MP is Vernon Coaker (Labour). You can see his voting record on Brexit here: https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?id=uk.org.publicwhip/member/41629&showall=yes#divisions
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Your decision. Nobody else’s. Not politician’s, not Parliament’s. Not lobby groups. Not mine. Just you. You, the British people, will decide. At that moment, you will hold this country’s destiny in your hands. This is a huge decision for our country, perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes. And it will be the final decision. So to those who suggest that a decision in the referendum to leave would merely produce another stronger renegotiation and then a second referendum in which Britain would stay, I say think again. And the referendum that follows will be a once in a generation choice. An in or out referendum. When the British people speak, their voice will be respected, not ignored. If we vote to leave, then we will leave. There will not be another renegotiation and another referendum. Prime Minister David Cameron. June 2016.
Remainers and Soros cohorts, please read the above. :police:
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Your decision. Nobody else’s. Not politician’s, not Parliament’s. Not lobby groups. Not mine. Just you. You, the British people, will decide. At that moment, you will hold this country’s destiny in your hands. This is a huge decision for our country, perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes. And it will be the final decision. So to those who suggest that a decision in the referendum to leave would merely produce another stronger renegotiation and then a second referendum in which Britain would stay, I say think again. And the referendum that follows will be a once in a generation choice. An in or out referendum. When the British people speak, their voice will be respected, not ignored. If we vote to leave, then we will leave. There will not be another renegotiation and another referendum. Prime Minister David Cameron. June 2016.
Remainers and Soros cohorts, please read the above. :police:
Can you please explain the "Soros cohorts" bit there mate?
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Easier one to answer for the locals ....
Can anyone explain why all the media is overloaded with Brexit ? likewise so are a overwhelming number of MPs twitter accounts.
Yet I cannot remember the last time our MP uttered the word . :police:
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Easier one to answer for the locals ....
Can anyone explain why all the media is overloaded with Brexit ? likewise so are a overwhelming number of MPs twitter accounts.
Yet I cannot remember the last time our MP uttered the word . :police:
He does talk about it, but Warman just repeats what his boss says. He's one of those MPs who simply doesn't have an opinion at odds with the official party line, unlike Rees-Mogg or Soubry.
Cameron: "We must stay in the EU!"
Warman: "Yes, we must stay in the EU!"
May: "The people have spoken, we must leave the EU!"
Warman: "Yes, we must leave!!"
If the next Tory leader decides to ditch Brexit, you can bet he'll back that too. He just wants a cabinet position.
You lot blather on about hating career politicians only in it for themselves. Well, you elected one.
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Can you please explain the "Soros cohorts" bit there mate?
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"And it will be the final decision. So to those who suggest that a decision in the referendum to leave would merely produce another stronger renegotiation and then a second referendum in which Britain would stay, I say think again. And the referendum that follows will be a once in a generation choice. An in or out referendum. When the British people speak, their voice will be respected, not ignored. If we vote to leave, then we will leave. There will not be another renegotiation and another referendum."
There you go me owde mucker... democracy in action. Seems plain enough english even for the likes of Blair, Major, Clegg, Cable etc and, of course, the man funding these people attempting to overturn the democratic process . :police:
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Easier one to answer for the locals ....
Can anyone explain why all the media is overloaded with Brexit ? likewise so are a overwhelming number of MPs twitter accounts.
Yet I cannot remember the last time our MP uttered the word . :police:
He does talk about it, but Warman just repeats what his boss says. He's one of those MPs who simply doesn't have an opinion at odds with the official party line, unlike Rees-Mogg or Soubry.
Cameron: "We must stay in the EU!"
Warman: "Yes, we must stay in the EU!"
May: "The people have spoken, we must leave the EU!"
Warman: "Yes, we must leave!!"
If the next Tory leader decides to ditch Brexit, you can bet he'll back that too. He just wants a cabinet position.
You lot blather on about hating career politicians only in it for themselves. Well, you elected one.
Most constituencies do the same Pete , usually no options with all candidates tarred with the same brush .
Options ? abstain from voting , or the French option, spoil the ballot paper to display your objection to all the candidates .
Difficult to understand how the tories get such a big vote in a town with the biggest percentage of household with incomes below the living wage . Then again I would think that fact shows why there was a big leave vote .
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Can't see a problem with Matt Warman. He had the choice we all had, and voted remain. When he realised that the majority in his constituency wanted to leave, he decided that he should represent their views.
Its a pity some other MPs haven't done the same thing, Soubrey, Hammond etc
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Can't see a problem with Matt Warman. He had the choice we all had, and voted remain. When he realised that the majority in his constituency wanted to leave, he decided that he should represent their views.
Its a pity some other MPs haven't done the same thing, Soubrey, Hammond etc
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Pete is correct on this one , Matt fears upsetting the party bosses , always puts constituent needs last .
Like Geo & Dodgy Dave he always reminded us pre referendum that a leave vote would leave the economy in tatters within months .
Always tries to avoid the word Brexit .
One to watch for the top table ?......Victoria Atkins , (Horncastle & Louth ).
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He's now representing the way his constituency voted, whereas before he was following the party project fear agenda.
Despite May's instructions Hammond appears to be doing his best to stop Brexit, although his constituency voted out. The majority of his constituents are rightly pissed off by his antics... I imagine the same applies to the other MPs like Soubrey, who have the patronisingly arrogant opinion that their constituents were too thick to know what they were voting for.
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I do not know about you lads, but I am sick to death of Brexit
I am sick of the EU and their mightier than thou approach to it.
I am sick of the BBCs very bias reporting on the issue.
I am sick of people coming out of their holes demanding another referendum ( why did they not vote in the first place, because it was bloody raining in London )
I am sick of the doomsday predictions
I am sick of Carney predicting the end of the world ( should he not be steadying the ship not trying to rock it? )
I am sick of local farmers bleating on about who's going to pick the crops. Well who bloody picked them before foreign labour undercut the local workforce?
What I am really sick of, are the people who will not take the yes vote as the result because it does not suit them.
Before I get a comment about if I am that sick I should see a doctor, that's where I have been all day. Not feeling well and now taking it out on my Patter pals ;)
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I do not know about you lads, but I am sick to death of Brexit
I am sick of the EU and their mightier than thou approach to it.
I am sick of the BBCs very bias reporting on the issue.
I am sick of people coming out of their holes demanding another referendum ( why did they not vote in the first place, because it was bloody raining in London )
I am sick of the doomsday predictions
I am sick of Carney predicting the end of the world ( should he not be steadying the ship not trying to rock it? )
I am sick of local farmers bleating on about who's going to pick the crops. Well who bloody picked them before foreign labour undercut the local workforce?
What I am really sick of, are the people who will not take the yes vote as the result because it does not suit them.
Before I get a comment about if I am that sick I should see a doctor, that's where I have been all day. Not feeling well and taking it out on my Patter pals ;)
I guess you didn't get the Irish border sorted then when you was there on holiday dip :)
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I do not know about you lads, but I am sick to death of Brexit
I am sick of the EU and their mightier than thou approach to it.
I am sick of the BBCs very bias reporting on the issue.
I am sick of people coming out of their holes demanding another referendum ( why did they not vote in the first place, because it was bloody raining in London )
I am sick of the doomsday predictions
I am sick of Carney predicting the end of the world ( should he not be steadying the ship not trying to rock it? )
I am sick of local farmers bleating on about who's going to pick the crops. Well who bloody picked them before foreign labour undercut the local workforce?
What I am really sick of, are the people who will not take the yes vote as the result because it does not suit them.
Before I get a comment about if I am that sick I should see a doctor, that's where I have been all day. Not feeling well and taking it out on my Patter pals ;)
I guess you didn't get the Irish border sorted then when you was there on holiday dip :)
I blamed the Guiness for the visit to the doctor, then the hospital then back to the doctor. :D :D. The feeling in Ireland is that they are afraid for us to leave. They do not want us to go. ( well the half a dozen in the bar where I drank ) :D They feel it would be bad for Ireland, being as we are a net contributor. Perhaps this is the main reason the EU wants us to stay. My mate in Ireland said what happened before they joined the EU? It was an open border.
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I do not know about you lads, but I am sick to death of Brexit
I am sick of the EU and their mightier than thou approach to it.
I am sick of the BBCs very bias reporting on the issue.
I am sick of people coming out of their holes demanding another referendum ( why did they not vote in the first place, because it was bloody raining in London )
I am sick of the doomsday predictions
I am sick of Carney predicting the end of the world ( should he not be steadying the ship not trying to rock it? )
I am sick of local farmers bleating on about who's going to pick the crops. Well who bloody picked them before foreign labour undercut the local workforce?
What I am really sick of, are the people who will not take the yes vote as the result because it does not suit them.
Before I get a comment about if I am that sick I should see a doctor, that's where I have been all day. Not feeling well and taking it out on my Patter pals ;)
I guess you didn't get the Irish border sorted then when you was there on holiday dip :)
I blamed the Guiness for the visit to the doctor, then the hospital then back to the doctor. :D :D. The feeling in Ireland is that they are afraid for us to leave. They do not want us to go. ( well the half a dozen in the bar where I drank ) :D They feel it would be bad for Ireland, being as we are a net contributor. Perhaps this is the main reason the EU wants us to stay. My mate in Ireland said what happened before they joined the EU? It was an open border.
Hope u r feeling better soon Dipdo!! I am equally disalussioned as U. Come on what an Eton Mess! I blame Cameron for calling it....did he even contemplate a Leave Vote....not a chance!! Did he want to belittle the so called Mayor of London his ex Eton cell mate Boris the Brexiteer....Yeah. So when 56% of the UK vote out the bluff is truly called. I mean did any single voter in Bostonshire who voted out understand trade tariffs, single markets, hard borders or international freedom of trade agreements....I strongly suspect a NO there because none of our so called politicians Do. The hypocrisy that accompanies this shambles from the likes of Gove....Johnson....Rees Mogg....May....Corbyn....Cable & so on is priceless. The EUROPEAN Union won't budge a 16th of an inch....Chequers was an afterthought from a bunch of sycophant Remainers. Deal or no Deal.
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I do not know about you lads, but I am sick to death of Brexit
You started it! ;D
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Can't see a problem with Matt Warman. He had the choice we all had, and voted remain. When he realised that the majority in his constituency wanted to leave, he decided that he should represent their views.
Its a pity some other MPs haven't done the same thing, Soubrey, Hammond etc
Let's say there's another election and out of all the mess we end up with some kind of Tory-led coalition and the new PM says "we're gonna cancel Brexit", I reckon Warman would just go "yeah, we're gonna cancel Brexit!", regardless of what people on Boston actually voted for. That's my point.
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Can't see a problem with Matt Warman. He had the choice we all had, and voted remain. When he realised that the majority in his constituency wanted to leave, he decided that he should represent their views.
Its a pity some other MPs haven't done the same thing, Soubrey, Hammond etc
Ed , if Matt is fighting our corner we are doomed .
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I don't normally comment on politics as I think they are all on the take and in it for themselves.
As my late Grandfather would say "they all piss in the same pot boy".
I really don't think the average man will see much change to their lives and business people will always find a way to do business with each other, that's what they have done for centuries.
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Theresa May's decided to go for a non-discriminatory immigration policy going forward that doesn't favour people from the EU, but merely judges people based on skills.
And therein lies the crux of the issue: no-one from the UK wants to pick cabbages around Boston, and farmers can't afford to pay people from the UK enough to make the dismal work enticing enough.
So we'll need foreign labour regardless - it's just now more likely to come from somewhere else, e.g South East Asia or Africa, because they'll do the work for even LESS than the eastern Europeans. Which I imagine is going to go down really, really well with all the local "send 'em home" types.
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Why would they come from so far away?
You are either skilled or you are not??
Doesnt Australia amongst others use a points system??
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Why would they come from so far away?
You are either skilled or you are not??
Doesnt Australia amongst others use a points system??
Who do you think picks fruit in Australia? It isn't Australians - and the labour they use for that kind of work is not covered by a points system. It's seasonal labour covered by temporary visas. That's exactly how it will end up working here.
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Theresa May's decided to go for a non-discriminatory immigration policy going forward that doesn't favour people from the EU, but merely judges people based on skills.
And therein lies the crux of the issue: no-one from the UK wants to pick cabbages around Boston, and farmers can't afford to pay people from the UK enough to make the dismal work enticing enough.
So we'll need foreign labour regardless - it's just now more likely to come from somewhere else, e.g South East Asia or Africa, because they'll do the work for even LESS than the eastern Europeans. Which I imagine is going to go down really, really well with all the local "send 'em home" types.
Being born in a farming community I saw this local labour problem evolve . Basicly the workers protested with their feet and walked away sick and tired of having to graft hard to buy a bike while the farmers drove around in Jags .
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Theresa May's decided to go for a non-discriminatory immigration policy going forward that doesn't favour people from the EU, but merely judges people based on skills.
And therein lies the crux of the issue: no-one from the UK wants to pick cabbages around Boston, and farmers can't afford to pay people from the UK enough to make the dismal work enticing enough.
So we'll need foreign labour regardless - it's just now more likely to come from somewhere else, e.g South East Asia or Africa, because they'll do the work for even LESS than the eastern Europeans. Which I imagine is going to go down really, really well with all the local "send 'em home" types.
Being born in a farming community I saw this local labour problem evolve . Basicly the workers protested with their feet and walked away sick and tired of having to graft hard to buy a bike while the farmers drove around in Jags .
You never see a farmer riding a push bike.
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There's an interesting article on the BBC News website at the moment showing what proportion of EU workers we use from various industries.(www.bbc.uk/news/business-45720390). Food and Drink for instance uses 25%, while Health uses 5% which I thought would have been more.
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I remember a few years back asking a guy if he still worked on the land.
He said no. He said that he used to work piece work, start at daylight work till early afternoon and earn a good wage.
The migrant workers came in and undercut the local workforce. He said suddenly he was on an hourly rate, working longer hours and earning half what he was earning before.
I cannot verify if the above is true, but with pressure from the supermarkets I can see farmers taking this option.
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Minimum wage too soon became the default maximum wage for the many greedy bosses in industries that relied on peicework.
A problem of our own making not migrants.
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I remember a few years back asking a guy if he still worked on the land.
He said no. He said that he used to work piece work, start at daylight work till early afternoon and earn a good wage.
The migrant workers came in and undercut the local workforce. He said suddenly he was on an hourly rate, working longer hours and earning half what he was earning before.
I cannot verify if the above is true, but with pressure from the supermarkets I can see farmers taking this option.
Local students used to do this kind of stuff too. I know - I used to do it in various places up near Lincoln. Even back in the early 2000s, us students (lots from Lincoln Uni and DMU, also trainee teachers and A-level college kids) were surrounded by foreign workers - not eastern European at that point, but from places like Iraq and Kosovo. I also remember a fair amount of lads from Ireland. The money wasn't actually that bad if you were prepared to graft a 12 hour night shift. It was certainly much better than going to work in a pub or shop, which was the preferred part-time vocation of 95% of students. But still, very VERY few locals did it as a proper full-time, long term job. Perhaps one or two from what I recall.
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I used to do it in my youth, bean pulling, strawberry picking and bulb picking. Never made a lot, but kept me out of trouble in the school holidays. I am older than you, so a lot of locals, maybe the odd Irishman.
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Been from the farming area the only thing that crashed the farming is the supermarkets. Not the migrants....
Take a bit of broc for example. Inflation as gone up but the farms are still getting prices from 10 years ago. Out of that the farms cost as gone up so its just unrealistic for farms to be able to pay £15-£20 a hour like they did
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I used to do it in my youth, bean pulling, strawberry picking and bulb picking. Never made a lot, but kept me out of trouble in the school holidays. I am older than you, so a lot of locals, maybe the odd Irishman.
The influx of Irish farm workers from the 1900's onwards echo the same sort of issues as that seen today. They came in their thousands to the UK and during the war years, while Englishmen were keeping the peace in Ireland on just 1s a day, these Irish farm workers, doing the job of these aforementioned Englishmen, were earning 7s 6d. Needless to say, this eventually caused great unrest. During the period of the 'Irish invasion' as some put it, there was also a rise in criminal disorderly conduct, much related to drink. Now step forward over a hundred years and the issues seen now do in many ways echo those of the past.
I too have done farm and land work in my youth. Over 12 years on a strawberry farm, along with cropping veg, bagging onions and potato grading etc. Was hard work, but my co workers were all UK nationals too. So when I hear this 'locals won't do the work', there is always a raised eyebrow from me.
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" The locals won't do the work " This may now be true. We have lost a generation of local land workers. >:(.
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Recently overheard some 12 year old school kids using ‘you’re a big Brexiteer’ as a casual insult to each other.
Chaps, I don’t think history and future generations are going to judge Brexit very kindly.
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Recently overheard some 12 year old school kids using ‘you’re a big Brexiteer’ as a casual insult to each other.
Chaps, I don’t think history and future generations are going to judge Brexit very kindly.
Nor does my generation look too kindly on our joining the Common Market (we didn't have a referendum) that's led to all this hassle.
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Recently overheard some 12 year old school kids using ‘you’re a big Brexiteer’ as a casual insult to each other.
Chaps, I don’t think history and future generations are going to judge Brexit very kindly.
Adam I think most posters on here will not pay too much attention to a comment by kids made on a subject which like it or not no one knows the correct answer to. An unprecedented event with no history to form a judgement on .
By the time they get to voting age they will maybe have some evidence to judge if their comment was appropiate or not .
Predictions a tricky business! eg for 70 years I have regulary supported the Pilgrims , on Patter Predictions like most others I fail to predict the correct score , which is a far easier subject for us to predict than Brexit .
Predictions by my MP Matt Warman , Geo and Dave assurred me two years ago that a LEAVE vote would overnight leave us with many becoming unemployed , homes repossessed and derelict industrial estates .
On an increasing scale since then my mate Matt keeps reminding us that locally job numbers are increasing , house building is booming and we have some booming businesses .
How's it look from where you are Adam ?
And lets not forget on the other flank we had IDS (remember him ? the minister who claimed he could live in his £2k mansion on £50 (fifty)a week ) advocating leave to create monies for the NHS and the vulnerable . Ironic that millions of the vulnerable are/or soon will be having to take payday loans which they will never be able to repay , and only eat courtesy of the food banks . This the outcome of the "improved" benifit system (UC) introduced by IDS , which has cost the taxpayer £billions .
My hope Adam is that these kids along with others when becoming adults may well be better judges of the integrity of politicions than todays generation of voters are .are.
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It will be interesting to see what comes out of the EU Summit meeting this week ~ more Cabinet resignations are likely with May sticking to her guns on keeping us in the Customs Union indefinitely :police:
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Can't see any way for May to escape this. There is absolutely no deal she can reach that will satisfy the remainers in her party, or the hardline Brexiters, or the DUP, or the EU.
GE followed by a Corbyn government with a tiny majority would be my guess at this point - at which point all bets are off for what happens next. I think we are in for an extraordinary and highly destructive few months.
Still. Immigrants. Boo.
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Can't see any way for May to escape this. There is absolutely no deal she can reach that will satisfy the remainers in her party, or the hardline Brexiters, or the DUP, or the EU.
GE followed by a Corbyn government with a tiny majority would be my guess at this point - at which point all bets are off for what happens next. I think we are in for an extraordinary and highly destructive few months.
Still. Immigrants. Boo.
agree with everything above until the final "summary" ,,,if you believe its purely about immigrants i believe you are wrong..
maybe its about paying more in than we get out?
maybe its about an unnecessary parliament in Brussels?
maybe its about an unnecessary European commission ?
We voted "in" to a Common Market... a free trade area..did it need parliament/commissions to sort it?
despite all the warnings from Michael Foot, Peter Shore, Tony Benn that this would lead to, well, where we are now!
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Can't see any way for May to escape this. There is absolutely no deal she can reach that will satisfy the remainers in her party, or the hardline Brexiters, or the DUP, or the EU.
GE followed by a Corbyn government with a tiny majority would be my guess at this point - at which point all bets are off for what happens next. I think we are in for an extraordinary and highly destructive few months.
Still. Immigrants. Boo.
agree with everything above until the final "summary" ,,,if you believe its purely about immigrants i believe you are wrong..
maybe its about paying more in than we get out?
maybe its about an unnecessary parliament in Brussels?
maybe its about an unnecessary European commission ?
We voted "in" to a Common Market... a free trade area..did it need parliament/commissions to sort it?
despite all the warnings from Michael Foot, Peter Shore, Tony Benn that this would lead to, well, where we are now!
Come off it. It takes literally three seconds to Google research that shows the main reason people voted out was to control immigration and "regain control of our borders" (http://csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/?p=1153).
It's therefore perplexing, but not surprising, that these same people are now happy *not* to control our borders by leaving the RoI-NI border completely open. I've heard so many Brexit fans going, "well, we don't want a border." Okay. So if you're a Polish lad and want to come work in Boston, you'd simply need to fly to Dublin as an EU citizen, drive up to Belfast, ferry to the UK and boom: welcome to West Street.
Honestly. It's almost like vast swathes of our population have simply given up thinking things through.
Also: I find it depressing that you continue to talk about the EU as something that was inflicted upon us, when the democratically-elected British governments of the 70s, 80s and 90s all played active roles in its formation, as well as the creation of the very same rules and red lines that the EU are supposedly 'bullies' for sticking to. WE helped create those rules. WE voted in the politicians that helped write them. They are OUR rules, just as much as France's, or Germany's.
I thought you lot were all about respecting the will of the people? ;D
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Pete, you still don't get it ( or maybe you do ). Please, give we who voted leave some credit.
You try to say we had a simplistic approach in reaching our decision to vote out. I have been a working man all my life ( voting Labour, pint with my mates and for my sins watching Boston on a Saturday ) I may not have gone to university but I know when something is wrong. The EU is so wrong on many levels,
It is a bully, controlled by two nations. It is corrupt, controlled by un-elected pen pushers on salaries and pensions that are obscene ( that is why we will never leave, there are too many fingers in the pie). It is a democracy in name only. The same as this government when May sells us down the line. I was sick to death of Brussels bringing in laws to suit some German or French minority at the expense of 1000's in the UK. I was fed up with the UK giving our money away to fund bird brain ideas in some Eastern European back water. It peeved me when I heard every year that the UK was one of only three net contributors. My blood boils when I have to wait four hours in A&E (in an hospital which I helped pay for ) because of a 30% increase in our local population due to the migrant influx. I hated the fact that Westminster was only a puppet, passing laws that were overturned in a city 100's of miles away on main land Europe.
I voted for self government
I voted for control of our finances
I voted for freedom to trade with ever we thought fit
I voted for control of our borders
We opened our borders to all. Our little town was swamped. No new doctors, no new schools, a hospital struggling to cope, a smaller police force, no new houses and very little support for migrant workers.
We were given NO extra money to address these problems.
THAT IS WHY I AND MANY OTHERS VOTED LEAVE.
The deal has already been done. We have been sold down the line. May will keep us in a transitional period. We will pay £39 billion to line their coffers and have no say in anything. The Bullies have won.
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Spot on Dipodah.
The whole thing has been an elaborate charade from the start. If we do leave at all it will be Brexit in name only, and we will be a vassal state in the German led Federal Republic of Europe. As Boris put it, we will be paraded in manacles like Caratacus as a warning of what happens if you dare to try to leave the EU.
The only chance we have is if there's more resignations from the cabinet, and they put someone who actually voted leave in charge... I'm not holding my breath on that one :(
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Spot on Dipodah.
The whole thing has been an elaborate charade from the start. If we do leave at all it will be Brexit in name only, and we will be a vassal state in the German led Federal Republic of Europe. As Boris put it, we will be paraded in manacles like Caratacus as a warning of what happens if you dare to try to leave the EU.
The only chance we have is if there's more resignations from the cabinet, and they put someone who actually voted leave in charge... I'm not holding my breath on that one :(
You voted for the UK to be weaker than Germany, and to be a rules-taker from a much larger trading bloc on our doorstep - so why are you now complaining about it? You were warned. Repeatedly.
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What are you talking about?
I voted to take us out of the EU for several reasons, one of the main ones being to regain our Sovereignty and to avoid our national identity being subsumed into the Federal States of a Franco/Germany controlled Europe.
None of that involves being a rule taker from anyone. We are already economically weaker than Germany, and militarily stronger. If we can break away from the EU gulag we have a great chance of improving our economic position by trading globally. (Cue massive deluge of project fear mongering lol!) ;)
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I was watching Irish TV last night. A panel of " experts " were debating Brexit. It was good to see an unbiased ( non government controlled ) view. Obviously, views were put forward by pro and anti Brexit supporters.
What I did find refreshing was the sensible views put forward by both sides.
The opinion of most was that May would stick to her word, and stand by her written agreement, that there will be no hard border between North and South.
The general opinion was that a NO DEAL would be the final outcome.
It was nice to see a non British view on the subject and not the backstabbing ( from both camps ) information we are force fed over here.
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It would be illegal to erect a hard border under the terms of the GFA, but it would also be illegal NOT to erect a border under international law. Work that out if you can.
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What are you talking about?
I voted to take us out of the EU for several reasons, one of the main ones being to regain our Sovereignty and to avoid our national identity being subsumed into the Federal States of a Franco/Germany controlled Europe.
None of that involves being a rule taker from anyone. We are already economically weaker than Germany, and militarily stronger. If we can break away from the EU gulag we have a great chance of improving our economic position by trading globally. (Cue massive deluge of project fear mongering lol!) ;)
Dunno what you're on about to be honest. Because what you've just described is the UK being a rule-taker. The EU will be our biggest export market, so obviously our exports will have to match their standards - standards we'll have no say in whatsoever. Same goes for eventual trade deals with the USA, China etc when they come on line over the next 10 years or so. They're much bigger nations than us, so naturally we will acquiesce to their demands as the inferior country. We have absolutely no influence on such things anymore. Soz - that's just how global trade works these days, and you hardly have to be an expert to know that.
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Oh, and BTW - if, after all that, you still think I'm a remoaning scaremonger peddling "project fear", you'll do well to go away and have a read of submissions published today by the trade sub-committee of the Australian Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade as part of its initial analysis of a future trade deal with the UK.
According to Australia, the UK, and I quote here, is likely to be the "distressed negotiator" from which Australia will be able to extract "significant concessions". But - and this is the worst bit - Australia is going to wait for the United States and Canada to weaken our position EVEN FURTHER before they then move in for the kill.
This is not project fear. This is actual strategy from a foreign country keen to exploit our weakened international status. Published today, if you want to go read all the gory details (you probably should, because if that isn't a reality check for you then I honestly give up).
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Oh, and BTW - if, after all that, you still think I'm a remoaning scaremonger peddling "project fear", you'll do well to go away and have a read of submissions published today by the trade sub-committee of the Australian Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade as part of its initial analysis of a future trade deal with the UK.
According to Australia, the UK, and I quote here, is likely to be the "distressed negotiator" from which Australia will be able to extract "significant concessions". But - and this is the worst bit - Australia is going to wait for the United States and Canada to weaken our position EVEN FURTHER before they then move in for the kill.
This is not project fear. This is actual strategy from a foreign country keen to exploit our weakened international status. Published today, if you want to go read all the gory details (you probably should, because if that isn't a reality check for you then I honestly give up).
Then again their strategy may go pear shape , a bit like our Brexit strategy !! :(
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Things may be a little clearer tonight, when they all have dinner ( except May ) to discuss how to proceed.
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Yes slightly clearer just now! :o
They're now discussing a backstop to the backstop's backstop: a triple backstop in fact, and extending the transition period for an unspecified amount of time... could be the last straw for the Tory Brexiteers :police:
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Yes slightly clearer just now! :o
They're now discussing a backstop to the backstop's backstop: a triple backstop in fact, and extending the transition period for an unspecified amount of time... could be the last straw for the Tory Brexiteers :police:
Whatever it is ED, it will be a massive climb down, and prove how weak we are :( :(
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She was an inept Home secretary ( just look at our Police force ). She is an even worst Prime Minister. How can you have someone leading the negotiations who does not believe in us leaving the EU? >:(
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What are you talking about?
I voted to take us out of the EU for several reasons, one of the main ones being to regain our Sovereignty and to avoid our national identity being subsumed into the Federal States of a Franco/Germany controlled Europe.
None of that involves being a rule taker from anyone. We are already economically weaker than Germany, and militarily stronger. If we can break away from the EU gulag we have a great chance of improving our economic position by trading globally. (Cue massive deluge of project fear mongering lol!) ;)
Dunno what you're on about to be honest. Because what you've just described is the UK being a rule-taker. The EU will be our biggest export market, so obviously our exports will have to match their standards - standards we'll have no say in whatsoever. Same goes for eventual trade deals with the USA, China etc when they come on line over the next 10 years or so. They're much bigger nations than us, so naturally we will acquiesce to their demands as the inferior country. We have absolutely no influence on such things anymore. Soz - that's just how global trade works these days, and you hardly have to be an expert to know that.
If we want to trade with other countries we negotiate trade deals which, by necessity, involves regulatory alignment... nothing to see here, we're not being forced into rule taking, its a negotiation process.
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Oh, and BTW - if, after all that, you still think I'm a remoaning scaremonger peddling "project fear", you'll do well to go away and have a read of submissions published today by the trade sub-committee of the Australian Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade as part of its initial analysis of a future trade deal with the UK.
According to Australia, the UK, and I quote here, is likely to be the "distressed negotiator" from which Australia will be able to extract "significant concessions". But - and this is the worst bit - Australia is going to wait for the United States and Canada to weaken our position EVEN FURTHER before they then move in for the kill.
This is not project fear. This is actual strategy from a foreign country keen to exploit our weakened international status. Published today, if you want to go read all the gory details (you probably should, because if that isn't a reality check for you then I honestly give up).
More project fear mongering. The aussies are keen to get a trade deal with us once we have escaped the EU gulag, and this 'analysis' if it exists at all, is just their way of attempting to start negotiations from a strong position. Theresa May should take note, although its far too late now.
Considering the Aussie economy is outside the top ten, and the UK is in the play-offs we are not likely to be 'distressed' in the trade negotiations. Similarly with Canada, and, when negotiating with stronger economies, whatever deal is agreed will be mutually beneficial and not deleterious to either side, otherwise the deal would never be agreed... unless Theresa and Olly Robins are in charge of course :police:
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If we hadn't had an Etonian led Conservative government propped up by the Liberal Democrats with a narcissistic leader called Cameron who thought Leave was an exit from the Tatler: would we be in this Eton mess at all?? Putin is laughing his gas off!!
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Oh, and BTW - if, after all that, you still think I'm a remoaning scaremonger peddling "project fear", you'll do well to go away and have a read of submissions published today by the trade sub-committee of the Australian Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade as part of its initial analysis of a future trade deal with the UK.
According to Australia, the UK, and I quote here, is likely to be the "distressed negotiator" from which Australia will be able to extract "significant concessions". But - and this is the worst bit - Australia is going to wait for the United States and Canada to weaken our position EVEN FURTHER before they then move in for the kill.
This is not project fear. This is actual strategy from a foreign country keen to exploit our weakened international status. Published today, if you want to go read all the gory details (you probably should, because if that isn't a reality check for you then I honestly give up).
More project fear mongering. The aussies are keen to get a trade deal with us once we have escaped the EU gulag, and this 'analysis' if it exists at all, is just their way of attempting to start negotiations from a strong position. Theresa May should take note, although its far too late now.
Considering the Aussie economy is outside the top ten, and the UK is in the play-offs we are not likely to be 'distressed' in the trade negotiations. Similarly with Canada, and, when negotiating with stronger economies, whatever deal is agreed will be mutually beneficial and not deleterious to either side, otherwise the deal would never be agreed... unless Theresa and Olly Robins are in charge of course :police:
Yeeees, that's right. I made up the Australian trade committee position paper to scare people. You've rumbled me. Gosh darn it (full disclosure: it was actually published in 2017, not this week - my error).
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We'll let you off this time, just don't do it again ;D
The Singaporean trade deal with the EU is signed today, but will not come into force until ratified, which could take a while.
If we do actually get out the UK will then switch to a 'short-form' version while we negotiate a separate version, but with the same terms. 8)
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Oh, and BTW - if, after all that, you still think I'm a remoaning scaremonger peddling "project fear", you'll do well to go away and have a read of submissions published today by the trade sub-committee of the Australian Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade as part of its initial analysis of a future trade deal with the UK.
According to Australia, the UK, and I quote here, is likely to be the "distressed negotiator" from which Australia will be able to extract "significant concessions". But - and this is the worst bit - Australia is going to wait for the United States and Canada to weaken our position EVEN FURTHER before they then move in for the kill.
This is not project fear. This is actual strategy from a foreign country keen to exploit our weakened international status. Published today, if you want to go read all the gory details (you probably should, because if that isn't a reality check for you then I honestly give up).
More project fear mongering. The aussies are keen to get a trade deal with us once we have escaped the EU gulag, and this 'analysis' if it exists at all, is just their way of attempting to start negotiations from a strong position. Theresa May should take note, although its far too late now.
Considering the Aussie economy is outside the top ten, and the UK is in the play-offs we are not likely to be 'distressed' in the trade negotiations. Similarly with Canada, and, when negotiating with stronger economies, whatever deal is agreed will be mutually beneficial and not deleterious to either side, otherwise the deal would never be agreed... unless Theresa and Olly Robins are in charge of course :police:
Ok, so you get that the bigger party should expect to do better when it comes to the UK (hypothetically) negotiating with Australia or Canada. But the fact we are doing badly when it comes to negotiating with the EU is because May/Robbins have handled it badly? Nothing at all to do with the fact that the EU27 have a combined economy which is five or six times as large as ours?
Remainers warned that we would have no chance of securing the sort of pie in the sky deal that leavers promised - because the EU has its own principles to uphold and is economically much bigger and stronger than us. The outcome would be pretty much the same whoever led our negotiations - be it Churchill, JFK or Mickey Mouse. It isn’t the negotiators’ fault for being unable to deliver on an impossible promise - it’s the fault of those who pretended it was possible in the first place (Davis, Johnson, Rees-Mogg etc - the ones who have either ran away from positions of responsibility or never held them in the first place).
May’s big mistake was to spend most of her first two years in office pandering to the Tory/UKIP right and promising the moon on a stick. She should have acknowledged that the referendum was extremely close and that there are huge divides to try and bridge, and aimed to build consensus for something along the lines of Norway, plus a customs union and with some restrictions on freedom of movement. That could then gradually evolve into something more detached over time, when the technology is invented to do so without erecting a hard border in Ireland or turning most of Kent into a lorry park (lol).
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The number of letters to the 1922 committee is very close to the 48 required to trigger the vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister, (allegedly).
The question is, has Matty Warman sent a letter yet? Considering a large majority voted to Leave in his constituency, and May is hell-bent on keeping us in, in all but name, then he should have sent a letter by now.
If ever there was a time to contact your local MP it is now, before it's too late...the time for Therexit has arrived! :police:
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The number of letters to the 1922 committee is very close to the 48 required to trigger the vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister, (allegedly).
The question is, has Matty Warman sent a letter yet? Considering a large majority voted to Leave in his constituency, and May is hell-bent on keeping us in, in all but name, then he should have sent a letter by now.
If ever there was a time to contact your local MP it is now, before it's too late...the time for Therexit has arrived! :police:
The ERG want to put David Davies in charge, which will be comedy gold because he - like all the other pro-Brexit MPs - has absolutely no idea how the EU works, or indeed global trade. His abject ignorance of basic facts is quite extraordinary. Same can be said of Rees-Mogg and Boris Johnson - they simply do not possess the basic knowledge of how the world works in 2018, and no measure of bluster or Latin-based waffle is going to bend the rest of the world to their delusional whims.
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I'm sure you know far more about the subject than Davies, Mogg, and Boris do :laugh:
Why not put yourself forward for the vacancy?
Therexit is getting closer so why not get your emails, letters, phone calls in to Matty Warman and help tip the balance in favour of the Brexit you voted for! :police:
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The number of letters to the 1922 committee is very close to the 48 required to trigger the vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister, (allegedly).
The question is, has Matty Warman sent a letter yet? Considering a large majority voted to Leave in his constituency, and May is hell-bent on keeping us in, in all but name, then he should have sent a letter by now.
If ever there was a time to contact your local MP it is now, before it's too late...the time for Therexit has arrived! :police:
I am still waiting to get responses from letters sent to Matt 9 months ago . To be fair Ed I suspect all in Westminster realise Matt is an exponent of follow the leader . Completly lacking in balls and would get torn to shreds debating against any of the heavy weights . Not cut out for serious politics in my opinion .
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I'm sure you know far more about the subject than Davies, Mogg, and Boris do :laugh:
Why not put yourself forward for the vacancy?
Therexit is getting closer so why not get your emails, letters, phone calls in to Matty Warman and help tip the balance in favour of the Brexit you voted for! :police:
My local MP is Vernon Coaker.
And yes, I suspect I actually do know more about the process than all three of them because I'm not nailed down to some ideological fantasy. But it's not hard: you only have to spend a few minutes Googling simple facts and you'll be better equipped than those preposterous caricatures.
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I'm sure you know far more about the subject than Davies, Mogg, and Boris do :laugh:
Why not put yourself forward for the vacancy?
Therexit is getting closer so why not get your emails, letters, phone calls in to Matty Warman and help tip the balance in favour of the Brexit you voted for! :police:
My local MP is Vernon Coaker.
And yes, I suspect I actually do know more about the process than all three of them because I'm not nailed down to some ideological fantasy. But it's not hard: you only have to spend a few minutes Googling simple facts and you'll be better equipped than those preposterous caricatures.
Just listening to the current commons debate on our E chaos: It's a parallel process with a international football match! They are playing well rehearsed short, crisp, passing football with a couple of decent strikers who are running rings around us. We keep humping long hopeful balls; no direction or plan.... they just mop everything up & their two centre half have cigars on. We are 3-0 down heading for a humiliating defeat & our manager is heckled & to scared to change tactics in the second half. ORDER Lol.
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;D ;D Post of the season by Champs! ;D ;D
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I'm sure you know far more about the subject than Davies, Mogg, and Boris do :laugh:
Why not put yourself forward for the vacancy?
Therexit is getting closer so why not get your emails, letters, phone calls in to Matty Warman and help tip the balance in favour of the Brexit you voted for! :police:
My local MP is Vernon Coaker.
And yes, I suspect I actually do know more about the process than all three of them because I'm not nailed down to some ideological fantasy. But it's not hard: you only have to spend a few minutes Googling simple facts and you'll be better equipped than those preposterous caricatures.
;D ;D Sorry Champs, this one's even funnier ;D ;D
Pete the keyboard trade negotiator ;D
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The number of letters to the 1922 committee is very close to the 48 required to trigger the vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister, (allegedly).
The question is, has Matty Warman sent a letter yet? Considering a large majority voted to Leave in his constituency, and May is hell-bent on keeping us in, in all but name, then he should have sent a letter by now.
If ever there was a time to contact your local MP it is now, before it's too late...the time for Therexit has arrived! :police:
I am still waiting to get responses from letters sent to Matt 9 months ago . To be fair Ed I suspect all in Westminster realise Matt is an exponent of follow the leader . Completly lacking in balls and would get torn to shreds debating against any of the heavy weights . Not cut out for serious politics in my opinion .
Yes, you may be right GHM, but despite Matty's prospects of becoming one of the bigger political beasts being on the low side (I'll take your word on that as I haven't met him yet), he is still our local MP and should be representing the view of the majority of us who voted out. 75% voted to leave, the highest out vote in the country, so we need to lobby him to make sure he's writing that letter IMO.
If he's dithering around not knowing what to do, a bit of lobbying from the locals could persuade him to get his pen out, and that one letter could be the 48th that leads to the removal of May... democracy in action! :police:
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i actually had cause to contact our 5 MEP's last Friday night
(a recommendation from the trade body i belong to.. wont bore you with the reasons)
we apparently have 5!
the Tory lady was the first with an automated reply later that night
the Labour came in with an automated response this morning
i'm guessing the two Ukip ones and the Tory guy are not tech savvy as i have received nothing as yet.
pop your postcode into this link and see who they are
https://www.writetothem.com/?fbclid=IwAR1RfrdYUS_gYQuwVyQFQogWnxevGS23qZYRIMn4VJklJIG70sJDYCiGmVU
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[quote ]
Just listening to the current commons debate on our E chaos: It's a parallel process with a international football match! They are playing well rehearsed short, crisp, passing football with a couple of decent strikers who are running rings around us. We keep humping long hopeful balls; no direction or plan.... they just mop everything up & their two centre half have cigars on. We are 3-0 down heading for a humiliating defeat & our manager is heckled & to scared to change tactics in the second half. ORDER Lol.
[/quote]
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Brilliant
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The number of letters to the 1922 committee is very close to the 48 required to trigger the vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister, (allegedly).
The question is, has Matty Warman sent a letter yet? Considering a large majority voted to Leave in his constituency, and May is hell-bent on keeping us in, in all but name, then he should have sent a letter by now.
If ever there was a time to contact your local MP it is now, before it's too late...the time for Therexit has arrived! :police:
I am still waiting to get responses from letters sent to Matt 9 months ago . To be fair Ed I suspect all in Westminster realise Matt is an exponent of follow the leader . Completly lacking in balls and would get torn to shreds debating against any of the heavy weights . Not cut out for serious politics in my opinion .
Yes, you may be right GHM, but despite Matty's prospects of becoming one of the bigger political beasts being on the low side (I'll take your word on that as I haven't met him yet), he is still our local MP and should be representing the view of the majority of us who voted out. 75% voted to leave, the highest out vote in the country, so we need to lobby him to make sure he's writing that letter IMO.
If he's dithering around not knowing what to do, a bit of lobbying from the locals could persuade him to get his pen out, and that one letter could be the 48th that leads to the removal of May... democracy in action! :police:
Yes I know Matt well Ed , that's why I will not bother to lobby him , if he wrote a letter he would put it out of context . Speaking from experience here .
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i actually had cause to contact our 5 MEP's last Friday night
(a recommendation from the trade body i belong to.. wont bore you with the reasons)
we apparently have 4 !
the Tory lady was the first with an automated reply later that night
the Labour came in with an automated response this morning
i'm guessing the two Ukip ones and the Tory guy are not tech savvy as i have received nothing as yet.
pop your postcode into this link and see who they are
https://www.writetothem.com/?fbclid=IwAR1RfrdYUS_gYQuwVyQFQogWnxevGS23qZYRIMn4VJklJIG70sJDYCiGmVU
It only took a couple of minutes and my letter is on its way, thanks hmn2p 8)
A link that could help get us out of this Maybot/Robbins-induced mess, and back on track to a Brexit resembling the Brexit that 17.4 million people voted for :police:
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I'm sure you know far more about the subject than Davies, Mogg, and Boris do :laugh:
Why not put yourself forward for the vacancy?
Therexit is getting closer so why not get your emails, letters, phone calls in to Matty Warman and help tip the balance in favour of the Brexit you voted for! :police:
My local MP is Vernon Coaker.
And yes, I suspect I actually do know more about the process than all three of them because I'm not nailed down to some ideological fantasy. But it's not hard: you only have to spend a few minutes Googling simple facts and you'll be better equipped than those preposterous caricatures.
;D ;D Sorry Champs, this one's even funnier ;D ;D
Pete the keyboard trade negotiator ;D
You know Boris Johnson quite literally put his fingers in his ears and said "lalalalala" when civil servants told him uncomfortable truths, right?
David Davies - THE MINISTER FOR BREXIT - didn't know Germany can't sign a bi-lateral trade deal with us after Brexit.
Jacob Rees-Mogg doesn't know anything except a few Latin phrases.
John Redwood knows less about international trade than my cat.
And these are the people you're pinning your hopes on. LOL.
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I'm sure you know far more about the subject than Davies, Mogg, and Boris do :laugh:
Why not put yourself forward for the vacancy?
Therexit is getting closer so why not get your emails, letters, phone calls in to Matty Warman and help tip the balance in favour of the Brexit you voted for! :police:
My local MP is Vernon Coaker.
And yes, I suspect I actually do know more about the process than all three of them because I'm not nailed down to some ideological fantasy. But it's not hard: you only have to spend a few minutes Googling simple facts and you'll be better equipped than those preposterous caricatures.
;D ;D Sorry Champs, this one's even funnier ;D ;D
Pete the keyboard trade negotiator ;D
You know Boris Johnson quite literally put his fingers in his ears and said "lalalalala" when civil servants told him uncomfortable truths, right?
David Davies - THE MINISTER FOR BREXIT - didn't know Germany can't sign a bi-lateral trade deal with us after Brexit.
Jacob Rees-Mogg doesn't know anything except a few Latin phrases.
John Redwood knows less about international trade than my cat.
And these are the people you're pinning your hopes on. LOL.
Who would you be prepared to pin you hopes on Pete ?
Can't see anyone fit , about 75% in Wesrminster have treated it as a game , they should hang their heads in shame
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Since no-one in government appears able or willing to front up and admit the truth - that we can't leave the EU on the 29th of March because we haven't got time to build the necessary infrastructure - then I think we need a general election to sort out this absolute mess.
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Since no-one in government appears able or willing to front up and admit the truth - that we can't leave the EU on the 29th of March because we haven't got time to build the necessary infrastructure - then I think we need a general election to sort out this absolute mess.
anarchy :)
you named some names in an earlier post and i agree
however
The thought of Corbyn and Abbot (Diane not Brad) anywhere near power is even scarier.
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Since no-one in government appears able or willing to front up and admit the truth - that we can't leave the EU on the 29th of March because we haven't got time to build the necessary infrastructure - then I think we need a general election to sort out this absolute mess.
anarchy :)
you named some names in an earlier post and i agree
however
The thought of Corbyn and Abbot (Diane not Brad) anywhere near power is even scarier.
Only the most wilfully delusional person would even attempt to disagree that this is the most wretched, shambolic Government in living memory, stuffed full of disgracefully ignorant charlatans blundering on with absolutely no idea what is going on beyond the walls of whatever 1922 meeting they've convened today. At this rate, Corbyn and Abbott is exactly where we're headed. God help us.
I'd honestly rather put Steve Evans in charge than this lot or their dismal alternatives.
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We are DOOOOOMED ;) ;)
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On the in or out theme; but relating to the Conference North. Why don't we all have a wild guess at how many more seasons it will take us to get back into the Conference?
I will kick it off with....This Season, we will win the Play off final.
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On the in or out theme; but relating to the Conference North. Why don't we all have a wild guess at how many more seasons it will take us to get back into the Conference?
I will kick it off with....This Season, we will win the Play off final.
More chance of Brexit being resolved! 8)
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On the in or out theme; but relating to the Conference North. Why don't we all have a wild guess at how many more seasons it will take us to get back into the Conference?
I will kick it off with....This Season, we will win the Play off final.
More chance of Brexit being resolved! 8)
Does that mean you think we will never get a promotion then Ernie?
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On the in or out theme; but relating to the Conference North. Why don't we all have a wild guess at how many more seasons it will take us to get back into the Conference?
I will kick it off with....This Season, we will win the Play off final.
More chance of Brexit being resolved! 8)
Does that mean you think we will never get a promotion then Ernie?
If Chestnuts go we may struggle to retain a place in NLN
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On the in or out theme; but relating to the Conference North. Why don't we all have a wild guess at how many more seasons it will take us to get back into the Conference?
I will kick it off with....This Season, we will win the Play off final.
More chance of Brexit being resolved! 8)
Not this season I don't, we haven't had a settled squad, too many personnel changes for my liking.
Does that mean you think we will never get a promotion then Ernie?
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Quote
Only the most wilfully delusional person would even attempt to disagree that this is the most wretched, shambolic Government in living memory, stuffed full of disgracefully ignorant charlatans blundering on with absolutely no idea what is going on beyond the walls of whatever 1922 meeting they've convened today. At this rate, Corbyn and Abbott is exactly where we're headed. God help us.
I'd honestly rather put Steve Evans in charge than this lot or their dismal alternatives.
has he put his name forward? he did for most other jobs :)
maybe eyeing up Sturgeons position (no euphemism intended)
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Quote
Only the most wilfully delusional person would even attempt to disagree that this is the most wretched, shambolic Government in living memory, stuffed full of disgracefully ignorant charlatans blundering on with absolutely no idea what is going on beyond the walls of whatever 1922 meeting they've convened today. At this rate, Corbyn and Abbott is exactly where we're headed. God help us.
I'd honestly rather put Steve Evans in charge than this lot or their dismal alternatives.
has he put his name forward? he did for most other jobs :)
maybe eyeing up Sturgeons position (no euphemism intended)
Haha. You know what he's like. "I had an offer to become President of the United States but I decided to stay here and finish the job at Peterborough"
48hrs later - announced as President of Argentina
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Interesting poll tonight, Brexit what the Nation really thinks on Channel 4. 54% remain 46% leave. About the same as the exit polls predicted two years ago.
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'A bad deal is better than no deal' now according to Theresa May...shortly to be followed by 'Brexit means Remain'... and your local MP is backing the PM all the way.
GHM you were right, Mr Warman appears to be quite happy with Mrs May and has no intention of representing the 75% who voted out by getting his letter in to the 1922 committee :police:
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'A bad deal is better than no deal' now according to Theresa May...shortly to be followed by 'Brexit means Remain'... and your local MP is backing the PM all the way.
GHM you were right, Mr Warman appears to be quite happy with Mrs May and has no intention of representing the 75% who voted out by getting his letter in to the 1922 committee :police:
"No deal" would require significant investment in the border and customs infrastructure at Boston Docks, the construction of which should have commenced months ago to meet the March 29th deadline. Be a lamb: pop your head in and let us all know how the work is coming along?
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Another minister resigns, appalled at the prospect of May's proposed deal. Another Johnson, but this one was a Remainer, and there's bound to be a few more come Monday.
So it looks like WTO rules will apply... I'd better check out the state of the 'border and customs infrastructure' at Boston Docks ready for the big rush for the exit/entrance ??? There's going to be plenty of room there for a couple of portakabins and a tardis; May has just 'negotiated' away the UK fishing rights before we've even got them back, allegedly.
The main Dover to Calais route is already sorted. According to the French they only need 8 weeks to get the infrastructure in place, and this side operation stack is a tried and tested way of dealing with any border delays.
So after two years of fannying around talking about non existent deals we are back to what we voted for in the first place, to leave the EU... a binary choice according to Cameron, but I won't be holding my breath :police:
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The EU are ramping up the pressure on May. Again, today they have released a doomsday type document, marking out what will happen to the UK if there is a No Deal. With a leading ( remain ) Tory saying today, that May's proposed Chequers deal will give up more sovereignty than we get back, the words " sold down the river " comes to mind. >:( >:(
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As Boris said, 'the fix is in', the elaborate charade continues!
The EU posture/negotiate while project fear, funded by Soros etc, goes into overdrive and thousands of brain washed social media trolls are unleashed on the unsuspecting British public. Combined with the mainstream media onslaught, the net result is that people are terrified of the no deal WTO option.
The 'negotiations' appear doomed but miraculously, at the last minute, the EU agree a triple backstop deal once May has conceded on every conceivable front. A deal which will leave the country in permanent vassalage to the increasingly German dominated EU Gulag.
Three days after the hundredth anniversary of the ending of the Great War, May appears with her 'deal'. Like Chamberlain waving his 'peace our time' document just before the Second World War broke out.
So now she can offer the choice of no deal, or her really bad Chequers deal against the backdrop of a constitutional crisis with Corbyn being asked by the Queen to form a government, or the civil unrest caused by a second referendum.
Job done for May.
She has her seat reserved on the EU gravy train.
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https://youtu.be/a4DKKOlsJeE
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GHM I remember this time last year we had a great debate on the future of BUFC, predominantly concerning you making a valid case for the club to be relegated? I'm sure u will revisit those posts, and you will find that you regularly posted on here; that our club would cope better financially in the Evo Stik Premier, than in the Conference? More often than not u come up with hypothetical assessments of some future club accounts that in actual fact are totally irrelevant as only the Chestnuts would have any say in. How ever any of us fans dress it up, The Chairman & Manager are doing their up most to get us back in the Division above!
Regarding the financial hypothesis that we would come straight back down, it's nonsense. GHM u state most of the club's I listed in the Conference are so much better off than us logistically & financially....seriously? Let's go with Solihull Moors, Gateshead & Maidstone.
We don't need to discuss Solihull crowds, sponsorship etc, ok Midlands catchment area, no money though....6/7th in league? Gateshead: good catchment area, in the recent Wembley play off season home crowds under 600?? Always sniffing around play offs. No major investment ?? Maidstone, Phoenix club, starting from scratch after FL not easy, worked with some of their fans, they were split on climbing Kent league's 2 quick?? They are holding their own though on a shoestring!
Only DN knows what sort of investment would go into the coffers if we were promoted. Finally if the Chairman didn't want to take us Up he would have been gone by now, not building us a New Stadium.
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Perhaps May used rock paper scissors ;D like the ref on the other post. We will find out in time ;D
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GHM I remember this time last year we had a great debate on the future of BUFC, predominantly concerning you making a valid case for the club to be relegated? I'm sure u will revisit those posts, and you will find that you regularly posted on here; that our club would cope better financially in the Evo Stik Premier, than in the Conference? More often than not u come up with hypothetical assessments of some future club accounts that in actual fact are totally irrelevant as only the Chestnuts would have any say in. How ever any of us fans dress it up, The Chairman & Manager are doing their up most to get us back in the Division above!
Regarding the financial hypothesis that we would come straight back down, it's nonsense. GHM u state most of the club's I listed in the Conference are so much better off than us logistically & financially....seriously? Let's go with Solihull Moors, Gateshead & Maidstone.
We don't need to discuss Solihull crowds, sponsorship etc, ok Midlands catchment area, no money though....6/7th in league? Gateshead: good catchment area, in the recent Wembley play off season home crowds under 600?? Always sniffing around play offs. No major investment ?? Maidstone, Phoenix club, starting from scratch after FL not easy, worked with some of their fans, they were split on climbing Kent league's 2 quick?? They are holding their own though on a shoestring!
Only DN knows what sort of investment would go into the coffers if we were promoted. Finally if the Chairman didn't want to take us Up he would have been gone by now, not building us a New Stadium.
Your on the wrong thread Champs , would have been more appropriate if you had sent these comments on previous threads of yours .
26th Feb 20 2017 . Champs . "Keep faith till the end of the season , Adam will take us up next season " ADAM IN .
Oct 21st 2017 Champs . "A new manager must be brought in before we get cut adrift " ADAM OUT .
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GHM I remember this time last year we had a great debate on the future of BUFC, predominantly concerning you making a valid case for the club to be relegated? I'm sure u will revisit those posts, and you will find that you regularly posted on here; that our club would cope better financially in the Evo Stik Premier, than in the Conference? More often than not u come up with hypothetical assessments of some future club accounts that in actual fact are totally irrelevant as only the Chestnuts would have any say in. How ever any of us fans dress it up, The Chairman & Manager are doing their up most to get us back in the Division above!
Regarding the financial hypothesis that we would come straight back down, it's nonsense. GHM u state most of the club's I listed in the Conference are so much better off than us logistically & financially....seriously? Let's go with Solihull Moors, Gateshead & Maidstone.
We don't need to discuss Solihull crowds, sponsorship etc, ok Midlands catchment area, no money though....6/7th in league? Gateshead: good catchment area, in the recent Wembley play off season home crowds under 600?? Always sniffing around play offs. No major investment ?? Maidstone, Phoenix club, starting from scratch after FL not easy, worked with some of their fans, they were split on climbing Kent league's 2 quick?? They are holding their own though on a shoestring!
Only DN knows what sort of investment would go into the coffers if we were promoted. Finally if the Chairman didn't want to take us Up he would have been gone by now, not building us a New Stadium.
Your on the wrong thread Champs , would have been more appropriate if you had sent these comments on previous threads of yours .
26th Feb 20 2017 . Champs . "Keep faith till the end of the season , Adam will take us up next season " ADAM IN .
Oct 21st 2017 Champs . "A new manager must be brought in before we get cut adrift " ADAM OUT .
Beautiful dodge GHM. Do U want me to re-post some of your assertions from last November; stating clearly that Relegation was a much better option than Promotion. If this response has took U all day ok. But please respond to my factual evidence of clubs on lower budgets thriving in the league above us.
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If you think a team in the NC can survive on gates of 600 gates without a massive input of money from a donor I give up .
Simple maths tell you a net gate of £6k will not cover the weekly overheads never mind pay players wages .
I've only done business with proper money, never ever played monopoly .
We need you on the Brexit thread , far better at finance than Mrs May ;)
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Another one bites the dust, Raab gone :police:
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Hopefully May will follow along with the Chequers arrangement :police:
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Another one bites the dust, Raab gone :police:
Looks like the Irish border is not sorted then :(
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Another one bites the dust, Raab gone :police:
Looks like the Irish border is not sorted then :(
how come Switzerland can have loads of borders with surrounding nations but Ireland is different?
more bullying from the Brussels Boys
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoO6146qM5g
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She said yesterday that she had the full support of her Cabinet. More lies by a person who has messed up every job she has been involved with.
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She said yesterday that she had the full support of her Cabinet. More lies by a person who has messed up every job she has been involved with.
And she's tried to negotiate a brexit deal as a remoaner? 2 brexit secretaries resign? The EU must be laughing their trade deals off (Not quite). Camerons idealists have made us the laughing stock of the globe. As Andrew Neil has just said Cameron's euro revolution has devoured it's own children! Where do we go now? Humiliated and the bargaining hand of a North Ferriby reserve 11. Rees Mogg, Gove, oh Brussels so want a hard Brexiteer to step up & the humour intensifies. Another Referendum? And the vote is bigger for leave, where does that leave us? General election: Corbyn: where has he been since Leave Vote? Answers on a postage stamp lol X
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Tory infighting, the wrong people in the wrong jobs, resigning. Democracy ignored. The possibility of a General Election, with a future Prime Minister so far left our future " special relationship " will be with Russia. I think May will be gone within the week, and she deserves to be. She has been spineless under EU Bullying. We are a great country, despite what general opinion is. A no deal is better that this " sold down the river " deal. Tear up the draft agreement, extend article 50 and send someone over to negotiate who has a pair of balls. They need us more than we need them, as only one of three net contributors. The thing that worries me most from yesterday, was the term " non Brexit " being used for the first time. >:(
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The absolute state of the bleating on here.
Fact is this: no deal is not, and never has been, a realistic option: quite apart from the fact we simply haven't actually done what we need to prepare for it, there is (and will never be) any Parliamentary majority for it, so forget it. It's not happening. Get over it.
And so the deal on the table is the EU's "take it or leave it" offer. It was always going to be that way, you've been told repeatedly, and you all chose to ignore anyone who told you. Well, sorry - you can't dodge reality forever. And if you think your saviour Rees-Mogg would have negotiated a better deal, you're on another planet.
And please, before you make silly comments comparing Switzerland to Ireland, can you at least stop to clue yourselves up to a few basic facts because otherwise you're just going to make yourself look a bit daft.
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Couldn't agree more, Pete!
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We are all guilty of seeing what we want to see.
I like the fact that this debate has been going on for over two years, and we are all still divided on opinion. Free speech is still alive and kicking.
We don't fall out, even when each others opinions are so diverse ;D
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We are all guilty of seeing what we want to see.
Graham Brady is in the East Midlands today apparently, so if you bump into him, tell him to get his arse back down south and count the letters to the 1922 Committee :police:
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We know for a fact that Matt Warman has not written a letter to the 1922 committee yet, despite 75 percent of our constituency voting to leave.
If ever there was a time to lobby your local MP it is now, so just follow the link in hm2mp's post earlier in this thread and fire off an email... he may well be a career politician, but there's no career if you don't get voted back in at the next election, which could be fairly soon if it all goes tits up :police: :police:
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She said yesterday that she had the full support of her Cabinet. More lies by a person who has messed up every job she has been involved with.
You're right Dip , not long now to go . Have you speculated yet on who will succeed her ? Put your pension on Gove ?
Any odds available yet on potential leaders .
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The trouble is GHM who do we have? :( :(
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Dominic Raab 4/1 fav in places
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She said yesterday that she had the full support of her Cabinet. More lies by a person who has messed up every job she has been involved with.
You're right Dip , not long now to go . Have you speculated yet on who will succeed her ? Put your pension on Gove ?
Any odds available yet on potential leaders .
20/1 Mr Corbyn GHM got 2 b worth a fiver lol
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Pilgrims 0 - 2 Port.
889
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She said yesterday that she had the full support of her Cabinet. More lies by a person who has messed up every job she has been involved with.
You're right Dip , not long now to go . Have you speculated yet on who will succeed her ? Put your pension on Gove ?
Any odds available yet on potential leaders .
20/1 Mr Corbyn GHM got 2 b worth a fiver lol
You never listen to my financial expertise Champs , put your fiver on Gove !
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Dominic Raab 4/1 fav in places
Dominic ‘I didn’t realise how important the Dover to Calais trade route is’ Raab? ;D ;D
Looks like yet again Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg and their fellow ERG fruitloops have failed to get enough letters in to force a leadership contest. Is there a more ridiculous group of individuals in political history? Constantly sniping from the sidelines - never proposing any sort of alternative. Constantly saying they have the numbers to bring down Theresa May and implement their (non existent) alternative - constantly failing to do so... All bluster and bravado from a bunch of vacuous cretins who history will (rightly) judge very harshly.
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"Is Theresa May being a bit rubbish?"
The opening Newsnight question tonight to a passerby on St. Botolph's bridge, bizarrely with the Viennese Waltz playing as background music. John Sweeney then pounced on a couple of guys, equally bizarrely carrying a piece of scrap metal pipe, and asked the same question.
The verdict was 'yeah she is a bit rubbish as she hasn't done what she promised'.
It was possibly the most patronising piss take of our home town since they rolled into town with their referendum campaign show. The one where they shipped in an audience of remainers to give the answers they wanted.
The star turn from tonight's show was the goggle-eyed Matt Warman who stated his commitment to the Maybot and her doomed Chequers deal. After all the feedback he'd received on the streets even John Sweeney had the decency to look perplexed at the irony of it all :o
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Pilgrims 0 - 2 Port.
889
Think you're in the wrong thread...
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We know for a fact that Matt Warman has not written a letter to the 1922 committee yet, despite 75 percent of our constituency voting to leave.
If ever there was a time to lobby your local MP it is now, so just follow the link in hm2mp's post earlier in this thread and fire off an email... he may well be a career politician, but there's no career if you don't get voted back in at the next election, which could be fairly soon if it all goes tits up :police: :police:
And the local population are getting exactly what they voted for!! We're leaving the EU! What else are you after?? Why are you so unhappy? You won.
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You still think that we will be leaving?
Its not something you can Google so maybe the penny hasn't dropped yet regarding the end-game. Anyway I've got a football match to watch so I'll leave it with you :police: :police:
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I am in Ireland at the moment. General opinion among the Dublin taxi drivers is we will not leave. They also cannot believe how weak we are.
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Please listen to this ;D ;D ;D ;D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKu7-cLxvf0 please beware it has some swearing. Sent to me from a good friend from Ireland.
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I knew you'd come round to be pro-EU in the end.
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;)
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All signed, done and dusted. ???
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All signed, done and dusted. ???
Ahh, but the dust hasn't settled yet, there's still plenty of hot air around to cause a few clouds.
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All signed, done and dusted. ???
Ahh, but the dust hasn't settled yet, there's still plenty of hot air around to cause a few clouds.
Yep
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"Under this deal we are locked in the EU's customs union, we are forced to accept EU laws with no say in the making of those laws. We are prevented from doing free trade deals, and we are about to hand over £39 billion for nothing in return"
If you could somehow get a truth drug into the Maybot this is what she would say. But it can't be done so we face two weeks of her robotic lips moving before the meaningful vote.
So all done and dusted, no wonder the EU are celebrating, we have capitulated on everything and this country has been sold out. If this gets through parliament May will go down in history as a traitor and our worst ever PM, and we will be the laughing
stock of the world, probably already are... :o :police:
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Of course it's a terrible deal - it was always going to be far worse than simply staying in. But it wouldn't have mattered who you put in charge of the negotiations - this was the best deal anyone was ever going to get from the EU. It cannot be renegotiated anyway, so I would forget about Rees-Mogg riding to the rescue. The ardent Brexiteers would have fared no better had they been in charge from the off anyway.
As repeatedly stated elsewhere, there is no democratic mandate nor a Parliamentary majority for "no deal". This is as good as it was ever going to get. Not really worth all the hassle was it?
Of course, May's deal will not get through Parliament, so I wouldn't worry too much about being trapped in it. I have absolutely no clue where we go from here. An extension to A50 while we try and sort this mess out presumably, but what happens after that I have no idea.
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Don't worry folks all will be sorted on Saturday , don't miss Matty and his Brexit drop in session at Boston , time and venue still secret . :laugh:
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No probs. I am sure he has our wellbeing and concerns top of his priorities ;D
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I would love to be a fly on the wall in the chambers of Westminster. Peerages being offered, bribes and corruption, all to toe the party line. I have lost all faith in our political system.
We are treated like mushrooms ( kept in the dark and fed on Sh*t ) >:( >:(
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You should have a chat with Mat Warman Dipodah, he might shed some light on the mushroom situation :police:
11.30 to 1.30 at Boston High School this Saturday the 1st Dec, or 5.0pm to 7.0pm 30th Nov at Skegness County Hotel.
He's still backing the Maybot allegedly :-\ :police:
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Just changing the subject slightly, looks like Thatcher is going to be the face on the back of the £50 note. Will not bother me, I am lucky to see a £5 note :D
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Just changing the subject slightly, looks like Thatcher is going to be the face on the back of the £50 note. Will not bother me, I am lucky to see a £5 note :D
It's not the point though. That woman instrumented the demise of anyone non capitalist. Such a right wing abolition of working class integrity!!
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Just changing the subject slightly, looks like Thatcher is going to be the face on the back of the £50 note. Will not bother me, I am lucky to see a £5 note :D
It's not the point though. That woman instrumented the demise of anyone non capitalist. Such a right wing abolition of working class integrity!!
It was tongue in cheek. She was like Marmite, you either hated her or loved her. With very good reason I was in the former camp >:(
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Just changing the subject slightly, looks like Thatcher is going to be the face on the back of the £50 note. Will not bother me, I am lucky to see a £5 note :D
It's not the point though. That woman instrumented the demise of anyone non capitalist. Such a right wing abolition of working class integrity!!
It was tongue in cheek. She was like Marmite, you either hated her or loved her. With very good reason I was in the former camp >:(
She should be the face on toilet rolls evil witch.
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So we all hate Thatcher, but are merrily supporting a clean break from the EU that will allow the ultra-right wingers the freedom to finish what she started and decimate the working class in areas still reeling from de-industrialisation?
Okay.
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You couldn't make this stuff up :o
Project Fear has been rebranded Project Vote, and they are re-running the same lies we had in the referendum campaign.
Treasury forecasts, a report from Mark Carney later today, and that will no doubt be followed by the CBI, the IMF, Uncle Tom Cobley and anyone else they can get to weigh in with some anti-Brexit propaganda.
We had the vote in 2016. We were told of the possible economic problems of No Deal over and over again in fine detail, but 17.4 million people gave the government an overwhelming mandate to take us out.
On my ballot paper it was either leave or remain, there was no mention of leaving, but only if we get 'the best possible deal for the British people'. That was spun into the political rhetoric as soon as May got into No 10 and this whole process of conning the British public out of what they'd voted for began.
She's lied through her teeth for 2+years and now she is going against an unopposed vote in the House of commons by not publishing the final and full legal advice on her deal given by the Attorney General.
Spending taxpayer's money on overturning a democratic process, unbelievable the sooner she's kicked out the better :police:
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Just changing the subject slightly, looks like Thatcher is going to be the face on the back of the £50 note. Will not bother me, I am lucky to see a £5 note :D
It's not the point though. That woman instrumented the demise of anyone non capitalist. Such a right wing abolition of working class integrity!!
It was tongue in cheek. She was like Marmite, you either hated her or loved her. With very good reason I was in the former camp >:(
She should be the face on toilet rolls evil witch.
I couldn't have put it better myself ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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You couldn't make this stuff up :o
Project Fear has been rebranded Project Vote, and they are re-running the same lies we had in the referendum campaign.
Treasury forecasts, a report from Mark Carney later today, and that will no doubt be followed by the CBI, the IMF, Uncle Tom Cobley and anyone else they can get to weigh in with some anti-Brexit propaganda.
We had the vote in 2016. We were told of the possible economic problems of No Deal over and over again in fine detail, but 17.4 million people gave the government an overwhelming mandate to take us out.
On my ballot paper it was either leave or remain, there was no mention of leaving, but only if we get 'the best possible deal for the British people'. That was spun into the political rhetoric as soon as May got into No 10 and this whole process of conning the British public out of what they'd voted for began.
She's lied through her teeth for 2+years and now she is going against an unopposed vote in the House of commons by not publishing the final and full legal advice on her deal given by the Attorney General.
Spending taxpayer's money on overturning a democratic process, unbelievable the sooner she's kicked out the better :police:
If she's kicked out, there's a good chance you won't get any Brexit at all as no-one will support a "no deal" exit. The EU may be willing to make a few more minor concessions to another leader, but nothing significant - to all intents and purposes this is as good as it gets given the reality of the situation. I honestly don't know what you were expecting to happen once the fantasies and delusions of ardent Brexiteers crashed into how the real world works.
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So we all hate Thatcher, but are merrily supporting a clean break from the EU that will allow the ultra-right wingers the freedom to finish what she started and decimate the working class in areas still reeling from de-industrialisation?
Okay.
Its a funny old game this politics lark....
Back in the day staunch left wingers voiced there thoughts on entering the EU.
Listen to speeches by Tony Benn Peter Shore and Michael Foot...
Watch them on youtube...
As a "young progressive" i thought they were daft... (nb i never thought they were xenophobic racist bigots #gammon!)
Now its apparently the ultra right who want us out ;)
Yugoslavia is an interesting example of various nations/creeds/cultures being ruled by one government...
Mind you if being lead by an unelected drunk who cant sort a pair of shoes out is your kind of democracy then you are welcome to it....
As we were warned by the above guys in the 70's and didnt listen maybe the youngsters whose 'lives we have ruined" may see it differently in the future..
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You couldn't make this stuff up :o
Project Fear has been rebranded Project Vote, and they are re-running the same lies we had in the referendum campaign.
Treasury forecasts, a report from Mark Carney later today, and that will no doubt be followed by the CBI, the IMF, Uncle Tom Cobley and anyone else they can get to weigh in with some anti-Brexit propaganda.
We had the vote in 2016. We were told of the possible economic problems of No Deal over and over again in fine detail, but 17.4 million people gave the government an overwhelming mandate to take us out.
On my ballot paper it was either leave or remain, there was no mention of leaving, but only if we get 'the best possible deal for the British people'. That was spun into the political rhetoric as soon as May got into No 10 and this whole process of conning the British public out of what they'd voted for began.
She's lied through her teeth for 2+years and now she is going against an unopposed vote in the House of commons by not publishing the final and full legal advice on her deal given by the Attorney General.
Spending taxpayer's money on overturning a democratic process, unbelievable the sooner she's kicked out the better :police:
If she's kicked out, there's a good chance you won't get any Brexit at all as no-one will support a "no deal" exit. The EU may be willing to make a few more minor concessions to another leader, but nothing significant - to all intents and purposes this is as good as it gets given the reality of the situation. I honestly don't know what you were expecting to happen once the fantasies and delusions of ardent Brexiteers crashed into how the real world works.
Way back on this thread, early in 2016, I said that it was effectively an In/In referendum as it would be voted down in the House of Commons. Since then I've watched the whole elaborate charade being played out. Brexit means Brexit, no deal is better than a bad deal, etc, but now, after she's purposely run the clock down, we find that the deal on offer is far worse than staying in as it leaves us in a state of permanent vassalage to the EU.
Hopefully it will be voted down by a massive majority and May will walk.
Trouble is there's so many spineless career politicians being worked on at the moment, it could well be only a small majority. If this is the case May will stay on and we will get another referendum IMO. We will be asked to vote for either May's deal, or to remain, and by this time the reality of how bad May's deal really is will have sunk in.
Best case scenario is if my 2016 prediction is proven to be wrong. May goes, we get a PM who actually wants to leave, and we leave on 29th March under a managed no deal arrangement while negotiations continue along the lines of a Canada style deal. The talk of 'the negotiations being over, take it or leave it' is just patronising crap from May, Robbins, and their EU buddies.
Negotiations are only over until they start negotiating again, everything is agreed until nothing is agreed, and by 12th December nothing will be agreed. :police:
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I love the idea that a ‘true believer’ PM could negotiate a better deal with the biggest trade bloc in the world. They’re not even capable of negotiating the writing and delivery of 48 letters by their fellow headcases. ;D
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Mark Carney makes his pitch:-
annual interest rates up to 6.6%,
the pound dropping 25%,
official borrowing costs up to 5.5%,
"Our job is not to hope for the best but prepare for the worst"
He seems to have cranked his previous predictions up a bit now it's called Project Vote :o
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Mark Carney makes his pitch:-
annual interest rates up to 6.6%,
the pound dropping 25%,
official borrowing costs up to 5.5%,
"Our job is not to hope for the best but prepare for the worst"
He seems to have cranked his previous predictions up a bit now it's called Project Vote :o
Project Guesswork I think Ed, like all projections made on the subject there no historic evidence to base the outcome on . If any of us were clever enough to forsee the true merits of in v out instead of revealing it on a football forum we would be investing to build a futune .
I would give Mark the benifit of the doubt with the 6.6% interest rate , impliment it tomorrow Mark .
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I would love to be a fly on the wall in the chambers of Westminster. Peerages being offered, bribes and corruption, all to toe the party line. I have lost all faith in our political system.
We are treated like mushrooms ( kept in the dark and fed on Sh*t ) >:( >:(
[/quot
I suspect a fly on the wall overheard the followng conversation last night .....
Mrs May , I hear you fancy my job Andrea ?
Mrs Leadsom , Yes I confess I would love to have a bash at it .
Mrs May , Back my Brexit deal and the job is yours in few months time.
Mrs Leadsom . Deal done PM , thank you .
Mrs May , Don't forget to hand me a £300 a day thank you bonus for the Lords please Andrea .
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We are DOOMED :o :o The IMF has joined the debate. House prices will crash, interest rates will go through the roof and the pound will plummet. Vote leave and the fires of hell will envelope the whole country. The Stay campaign are trying to scare the public into voting in their favour. The trouble is some of the don't knows will vote stay just because of the fear factor.
Nothing changes, my post from May 2016.
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We are DOOMED :o :o The IMF has joined the debate. House prices will crash, interest rates will go through the roof and the pound will plummet. Vote leave and the fires of hell will envelope the whole country. The Stay campaign are trying to scare the public into voting in their favour. The trouble is some of the don't knows will vote stay just because of the fear factor.
Nothing changes, my post from May 2016.
You weren't wrong!!
Cameron must lie awake wondering why on earth he threw a prime ministership & an entire career away by giving the British public a Referendum. Let's be brutally honest here did any of us fully understand the implications of a Leave Vote????
The Farage, Boris & Gove fantasy of an idealistic crusade that would halt immigration, secure borders & give us our legal integrity back was absolute codswallop the sold millions upon millions of voters right down the proverbial swanny!!
We would immediately save £350 million & it would all go to the NHS & not Brussels....please spare us the embarrassment. In fact a no Deal is going to cost us 35 billion over the next 5 yrs....Good eh?? We should Never had got to vote on it. We were Turkeys voting for Christmas.
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Anyone going to Matts gigs at Skeggy on Friday or Boston on Saturday ? .
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Anyone going to Matts gigs at Skeggy on Friday or Boston on Saturday ? .
Remember, if you go along to this, don't just tell Warman that May's deal is crap. That's pointless sniping. You need to tell him WHY it's crap, and also what better deal YOU would have negotiated had you got the chance. Otherwise you're just moaning, talking the country down and betraying the will of the people.
Good luck!
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Did anyone see the programme about Oxford street last night?
I saw a new insight into British policing. It seemed their objective was a short term fix.
Three shop lifters/pick pockets were arrested. Two were released immediately and the other released later in the day.
Next day the three were arrested again, this time one did get a 11 week suspended sentence.
The point I am making is, the officer in charge classed it as a result because they got them off the street for the day.
One of the people robbed was an 80 year old woman. Surely a tougher stance is needed to deter these scum. Oh sorry it would infringe on their Human rights. May's wonder deal involves us still being tied to the European court of Justice.
Tell that to the poor 80 year old woman >:(
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The policing you've described above has absolutely nothing to do with the EU whatsoever.
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Anyone going to Matts gigs at Skeggy on Friday or Boston on Saturday ? .
Remember, if you go along to this, don't just tell Warman that May's deal is crap. That's pointless sniping. You need to tell him WHY it's crap, and also what better deal YOU would have negotiated had you got the chance. Otherwise you're just moaning, talking the country down and betraying the will of the people.
Good luck!
I got to get in to the meeting first , I'm not sure if I am still on a red card.
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Anyone going to Matts gigs at Skeggy on Friday or Boston on Saturday ? .
Remember, if you go along to this, don't just tell Warman that May's deal is crap. That's pointless sniping. You need to tell him WHY it's crap, and also what better deal YOU would have negotiated had you got the chance. Otherwise you're just moaning, talking the country down and betraying the will of the people.
Good luck!
I got to get in to the meeting first , I'm not sure if I am still on a red card.
You got banned?! Hahaha. What happened? C'mon, fess up....
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The policing you've described above has absolutely nothing to do with the EU whatsoever.
If you saw the programme Pete, you would see it had everything to do with the EU.
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Anyone going to Matts gigs at Skeggy on Friday or Boston on Saturday ? .
He knows my views already so I'll let others have their say.
WTO rules in a managed, completely non-chaotic, non-cliff edge, no-deal situation while we renegotiate to remove the back-stop, and arrive at a Canada-style arrangement.
We were already offered a Canada+ deal which was what Davies was working on. Olly Robbins held back details of the existing technology so the idea was binned but could easily be put back on the table.
Robbins has a lot to answer for. He also removed a unilateral back-stop opt out clause from the latest attempt at a deal. He thought it would overcomplicate the negotiations... anything for an easy life for Mr Robbins :police:
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We are DOOMED :o :o The IMF has joined the debate. House prices will crash, interest rates will go through the roof and the pound will plummet. Vote leave and the fires of hell will envelope the whole country. The Stay campaign are trying to scare the public into voting in their favour. The trouble is some of the don't knows will vote stay just because of the fear factor.
Nothing changes, my post from May 2016.
You weren't wrong!!
Cameron must lie awake wondering why on earth he threw a prime ministership & an entire career away by giving the British public a Referendum. Let's be brutally honest here did any of us fully understand the implications of a Leave Vote????
The Farage, Boris & Gove fantasy of an idealistic crusade that would halt immigration, secure borders & give us our legal integrity back was absolute codswallop the sold millions upon millions of voters right down the proverbial swanny!!
We would immediately save £350 million & it would all go to the NHS & not Brussels....please spare us the embarrassment. In fact a no Deal is going to cost us 35 billion over the next 5 yrs....Good eh?? We should Never had got to vote on it. We were Turkeys voting for Christmas.
My first post on this subject. I am not a turkey. I despise politicians. I would offer solutions that would be described as draconian. One look at May is to know a chancer when you see one. One look at Johnson is to behold an over-educated idiot. One look at Corbyn is to disbelieve the existence of present reality.
b
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One look and listen at our Matty and you realise we have a man on a mission , a mission to please his masters .
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Matt appears to be satisfied with his Skeggy gig tonight .
My mole from Skeggy informs me the attendance was exactly 10 (ten) + Matty and one of his underlings .
Looking at his twitter photo taken tonight the good news is there will plenty of tea and coffee available at Boston tomorrow if I am lucky enough to get admitted . :)
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Sam Gyimah's resignation statement would make interesting breakfast reading for our MP.
The 10th resignation, but the reasons given for this one are an indication of our future treatment if we sign away our sovereignty at the behest of the Maybot and her band of servile underlings/MPs.
The UK paid £1.2 billion towards the development of the Galileo project (replacement for the American GPS system).
According to Sam Gyimah, the now ex-Minister for Science and Technology, the ink was barely dry on the EU's signing off on May's deal when they told us that we would not be able to access the secure network which is necessary for our armed forces.
He said that this was a perfect example of how they will hammer us at every opportunity, and of course they are not going to refund the £1.2 billion.
Enough to make Matty choke on his porridge. :police:
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Ed, it was obvious that this is the treatment we will receive. A dangerous game is being played. I am afraid the electorate are falling for it hook line and sinker.
We will have a new referendum, I am sure of this.
1, Accept the Chequers deal
2, No deal
3, No Brexit
This will split the voters who voted for leave. Project fear is well and truly in gear.
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I got admitted to Matts gig this afternoon , plenty of tea and biscuits and bullshit .
Hand it to Matt today he got his basic plan right , a large hall with bad acoustics and an audience top heavy with old farts on the verge of deafness , and no PA system . When a respected member of the audience spoke loud enough for people to hear Matt responded by asking him not to shout .
I think Matt had an answer for all the questions , fortunately there was always someone in the audience to explain to him what a load of nonsense he was talking .
I expressed to several present my dismay of having voted tory for about 60 years then at a vital time in our history we are lumbered with a LAME DUCK MP. I suspect he is now feeling the vibes of dissatisfaction and probably senses there are 2/3 locals who fancy stepping in his shoes.
From personal experience I know Matt is not receptive to constituents who contact him and express concerns and needs of his more vulnerable constituents . But nonetheless it was a shock when a constituent who has received national acclaim for outstanding work revealed to me some of her mail to Warman is not responded to .
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Did you go in disguise GHM? I take it he will back 76% of his constituents.
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Did you go in disguise GHM? I take it he will back 76% of his constituents.
No I did't go in full disguise Dip , I had a green fleese jacket and jumper given me last christmas so I went in those and headed straight to the his underling , requested a free tea and biscuit and explained I was an observer from the Green Party and had no problem .
One gentleman noted that Matt had started out as a remainer , changed to out , was he likely to change his mind again ? No response .
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What has the Government got to hide? I totally agree that Parliament must vote on any outcome concerning the Brexit withdrawal agreement. But to have a proper debate and vote they must know all the facts. The Attorney General must release the full legal agreement, not a 50+ page summary.
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What has the Government got to hide? I totally agree that Parliament must vote on any outcome concerning the Brexit withdrawal agreement. But to have a proper debate and vote they must know all the facts. The Attorney General must release the full legal agreement, not a 50+ page summary.
Couldn't agree more. It's outrageous the Government is hiding this advice.
As for Warman, it appears to me that he's a classic career politician who is simply out to further his own career and parrot the party line because he'd love a cabinet position.
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What has the Government got to hide? I totally agree that Parliament must vote on any outcome concerning the Brexit withdrawal agreement. But to have a proper debate and vote they must know all the facts. The Attorney General must release the full legal agreement, not a 50+ page summary.
Couldn't agree more. It's outrageous the Government is hiding this advice.
As for Warman, it appears to me that he's a classic career politician who is simply out to further his own career and parrot the party line because he'd love a cabinet position.
Unless he "crosses the floor", in a few months time he will only be eligible for a role in a Shadow Cabinet! What a shambolic mess.
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What has the Government got to hide? I totally agree that Parliament must vote on any outcome concerning the Brexit withdrawal agreement. But to have a proper debate and vote they must know all the facts. The Attorney General must release the full legal agreement, not a 50+ page summary.
Couldn't agree more. It's outrageous the Government is hiding this advice.
As for Warman, it appears to me that he's a classic career politician who is simply out to further his own career and parrot the party line because he'd love a cabinet position.
Unless he "crosses the floor", in a few months time he will only be eligible for a role in a Shadow Cabinet! What a shambolic mess.
Utterly hilarious that this idiotic Tory Government is going to somehow let Corbyn become PM. He's crap and won't last, but it just sums up how awful this lot are. The worst government in living memory.
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Bloody hell Pete, we've agreed on two things ;D
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A new record was set yesterday. The Government was defeated three times in one session. Taxi for May?
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A further nail in the coffin of no-deal. Interesting to see Tories turning on the extreme Brexiteers in the Commons yesterday - I think the penny has finally dropped.
So it's either May's deal (which is crap) or no Brexit at all (although the path to the latter will likely involve a General Election and/or a second referendum). That's the choice.
Again: not really worth it was it?
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Talking to a shrewd old business man ( true blue ) before the vote. He told me that even if the brexit vote wins, we will still be in the EU. He said we will go back renegotiate and a new deal put to the people. >:(
My reply from two years ago. Looking more and more likely.
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Legally speaking, we will still be leaving in March next year with or without May's disastrous deal.
It will be interesting to see the reaction when the legislation is passed to stop the no deal option, and the penny finally drops with the 17.4 million people who voted to leave, that the whole thing was just a massive piss take :o
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Legally speaking, we will still be leaving in March next year with or without May's disastrous deal.
It will be interesting to see the reaction when the legislation is passed to stop the no deal option, and the penny finally drops with the 17.4 million people who voted to leave, that the whole thing was just a massive piss take :o
I doubt there's time to get that kind of legislation passed before the end of March, so A50 will simply have to be extended while we sort out what we do when May's deal is rejected next week.
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The CEO of Weatherspoons backs Brexit saying with it will come cheaper drink .
Mrs May will reveal this Tuesday morning and walk away with a big majority ! :)
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The CEO of Weatherspoons backs Brexit saying with it will come cheaper drink .
Mrs May will reveal this Tuesday morning and walk away with a big majority ! :)
Well if there is going to be a party at the brewery let's hope it is not organised by any of the tossers in parliament or it will never happen.
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There's no negatives with cheaper ale :laugh: but May's deal is going down, so who knows how this will end.
The Brexit Betrayal Rally on Sunday is probably just the start :'(
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Another bad Saturday for Minority Matt , Friday last week he had his "open" meeting at Skeggy to discuss EU, not many minutes after closure on his twitter he declared it a good meeting , did 10 in attendance think the same ?
Last Saturday he continued his campaign at Boston High School with an attendance of about 40+ , 7 days on and he has yet to exclaim his satisfaction or any comments on the meeting on his twitter !
And now Amber Rudd coming up with this Norway Plus Model ! what does poor Matt do now ?
I think it's fair to say this Model would be unacceptable to the 75% Brexit voters in his constituency .
Worrying times for Matt , does he follow to his trusted route and stick as PMs trusted poodle and reject
this model ? , along the way upsetting the majority of his constituents . Being a versatile MP (non-commitial ) he will I suspect lay low and and avoid comment .
Next Saturday ? rule nothing out . Possibly the PM will be gone , Amber Rudd will be favourite to replace
her and Matt will have performed yet another somersalt by backing this new "Model ".
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They are already taking measures to ensure a seamless transition from Remainer Prime Minister May to Remainer Prime Minister Rudd, so that we remain in the Single Market, etc and continue with freedom of movement. So in other words Brexit in name only.
Rudd is already saying that the immigration question is no longer relevant due to reduced levels, in fact she dismisses it completely. :police:
This is the MP that took the rap over the then Home Secretary Theresa May's disastrous Windrush/hostile environment policy that resulted in the illegal deportation of people who had legitimate rights to reside here.
A few months out of office and she's reinstated to the cabinet and now a shoe-in for the top job.
This has to be stopped as she is just another Europhile who has no interest in ensuring a proper Brexit.
GHM, you are spot on about Matt Warman. I'm convinced he will be supporting Norwegian Rudd as soon as this all emerges, possibly as early as next Wednesday. :police: :police:
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Going on Warman's twitter on a regular basis in recent months it's surprised me how poor his PR is considering he is a former DT journalist . Roughly a fortnight ago I was amazed that he used a local foodbank for a photoshoot on twitter , although yesterday it had disappeared . I assumed it was just another appalling misjudgement on Matt's part .
Today a family member has sent me a copy of todays Mirror , as readers of this paper will have seen by now the foodbank photoshoot was an instruction sent to MPs from the top office , realising what an own goal it was they instructed all MPs to remove it.
Concerning that the top brass make an appalling error which I condemned a lame duck MP of making .
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The Brexit vote pulled ??? :o
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The Brexit vote pulled ??? :o
Not even this corrupt lot would do that Ed. But take us out in name only, now they will be up for that >:(
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Yes, she's been working towards that since the day she said ' Brexit means Brexit' :police:
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The Commons vote has been postponed ( surprise surprise ) The Eu have said that is the only deal on the table.
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A constitutional crisis :o. with Ian Duncan Smith saying this country could soon be burning like France :'( and the Maybot reopening negotiations with the EU on the backstop part of the withdrawal agreement.
Both parties said last week that negotiations had finished :police:
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A constitutional crisis :o. with Ian Duncan Smith saying this country could soon be burning like France :'( and the Maybot reopening negotiations with the EU on the backstop part of the withdrawal agreement.
Both parties said last week that negotiations had finished :police:
There's nothing the EU will give her that will placate the Brexiteers - I can't see any outcome from this that ends with her remaining as PM. We are at complete deadlock now.
In many ways, I think the best course of action now is to have a pro-Brexit PM take over. They won't manage to do any better at extracting concessions from the EU than May, but at least we can rid ourselves of the absurd notion that a pro-Brexit leader would have done a better job before this ridiculous situation is sent back to the people via a General Election (or second referendum).
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Weatherspoon's boss touring his Lincolnshire pubs today is still declaring he backs Brexit .
Surely we should listen to a man who can organise a good piss up as opposed to 600+ MP,s who wouldn't be capable of running his business .
Anyone in Weatherspoon's in Boston today hoping to see the boss come over and have a word with me ,
I'm the guy leaning up the bar with a empty pint glass.
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Peoples Vote???
Er what was the referendum?
My voting slip only had two options in and out..
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47 letters in to the 1922 committee plus a memo from Matt Warman, allegedly ;) :police:
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Peoples Vote???
Er what was the referendum?
My voting slip only had two options in and out..
Yes, and it is for precisely that reason that there's a decent chance that this will end up back with a second referendum. Everyone has a different idea of what "out" actually means. I wasn't sure another vote was a good idea, but if Parliament can't sort out the impasse then it's only right this goes back to the people to give politicians a popular mandate going forward - i.e., do we REALLY want to crash out with a no-deal? There's no mandate for it in Parliament, so another vote is the only way this will get through. So really, if that's what you want, you should actually be looking forward to the vote, not complaining about it. The ONLY reason you're worried about it is because you think the "will of the people" will suddenly change to stick with what we have based on the available choices of "out". Democracy eh?
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47 letters in to the 1922 committee plus a memo from Matt Warman, allegedly ;) :police:
The Tory party already had a vote to make a decision regarding their leader. Why do you want to undermine the first vote with a second one? 8)
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The mandate was given by the 2016 vote, Cameron repeatedly stated that we would leave the whole thing, no mention of leaving but only with 'the best possible deal for the British people'.
May gave away our bargaining power, conceded on everything to arrive at a deal so bad that hardly anybody wants it. It was no accident, she needs to go.
We need to either extend A50 for 6 months, or go out under WTO in a managed no deal arrangement while the Canada + deal that the EU offered us in March this year is ratified.
:police:
No need for another referendum, the will of the people was made clear in the first one. 8)
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47 letters in to the 1922 committee plus a memo from Matt Warman, allegedly ;) :police:
The Tory party already had a vote to make a decision regarding their leader. Why do you want to undermine the first vote with a second one? 8)
Nothing to do with what I want. At least 15% of Tory MPs have no confidence in the PM, and they will vote on her future this evening :police:
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Oh right, so it's fine for the Tories to have a change of heart, but you'd not want the same opportunity extended to the public so they can decide between no deal, May's deal or remaining then, now we know what the options actually are? If crashing out on WTO terms really is "the will of the people", surely you'd welcome it? Someone's worried.... ;D
Also, you've again misunderstood how the whole process works. May's deal is the terms of our departure, NOT the actual trade deal with the EU (that's the Canada + thing you refer to). The trade deal will take years to work through after our departure. I don't know how many more times I have to say this.
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Look all you regular posters on in or out you all waffle on worse than the politicians it's soo boring!!
Cameron lived by the sword & died by it....end of.
It has to be a Brexiteer to get us out not a remoaner....end of
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As Cameron said, the referendum is a once in a lifetime choice. If you vote to leave we will leave the Single Market, customs union, and ECJ (or words to that effect) and no mention of with or without a deal. :police:
Also no mention of: OK if you vote to leave and we then spend the next two and a half years talking about 'crashing out over the cliff edge and into the no deal abyss' on all the mainstream media outlets in order to prevent that even being thought about as an option. And while all that's going on work secretly on giving away our bargaining power and coming up with the worst possible deal, and running the clock down in order to force a situation where we can ask you if you've changed your mind yet... no I really don't remember him saying that. :police:
On the other hand every member of the Government knows the rules regarding votes of no confidence in the PM and the 1922 committee, so your comparison is incorrect :police:
As I've said before, I always thought that Parliament would vote down a leave vote in the referendum, it wasn't a binary choice at all, just an elaborate charade. The public have been conned :police:
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Look all you regular posters on in or out you all waffle on worse than the politicians it's soo boring!!
Cameron lived by the sword & died by it....end of.
It has to be a Brexiteer to get us out not a remoaner....end of
You're quite right Chubby :o. I'm going out for a couple of cold ones! ;D
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Matty toes the party line and votes for May in her vote of confidence.
Once again the Tories prove they are more interested in self preservation than good of the Country.
You can imagine the conversation, May, " Back me tonight and back my Brexit plan and I will resign before the next general election. Giving us a better chance of winning."
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Look all you regular posters on in or out you all waffle on worse than the politicians it's soo boring!!
Cameron lived by the sword & died by it....end of.
It has to be a Brexiteer to get us out not a remoaner....end of
You are right Champs .
Then again this is a football forum , and what happens on a football forum ?
Well most of us have never managed or played the game for a living but we come on here and tell the chairman/manager/players how to go about their business .
How many of us on this thread have actually negotiated international £multi billion deals ?
Only politicians would be stupid enough to insist you lay your key cards on the table for the party you are negotiating with to see .
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Look all you regular posters on in or out you all waffle on worse than the politicians it's soo boring!!
Cameron lived by the sword & died by it....end of.
It has to be a Brexiteer to get us out not a remoaner....end of
You are right Champs .
Then again this is a football forum , and what happens on a football forum ?
Well most of us have never managed or played the game for a living but we come on here and tell the chairman/manager/players how to go about their business .
How many of us on this thread have actually negotiated international £multi billion deals ?
Only politicians would be stupid enough to insist you lay your key cards on the table for the party you are negotiating with to see .
What we have witnessed over the past two years, has been a choreographed pantomime played out by two lead actors.
1, A remain dominated UK government
2, The EU
They have colluded to create this fiasco, in order to brainwash people into believing it's too difficult to leave. It's propagana and lies.
If The UK leaves totally, the EU regime will fail.
The very powerful vested interests are fighting with everything they have.
The public are being hoodwinked and we can do nothing about it.
Everything has already been decided, still more smoke and mirrors to come.
What a waste of time.
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Also, you've again misunderstood how the whole process works. May's deal is the terms of our departure, NOT the actual trade deal with the EU (that's the Canada + thing you refer to). The trade deal will take years to work through after our departure. I don't know how many more times I have to say this.
No misunderstanding there. If we exit under WTO rules we don't need a withdrawal agreement, we just GTFO as I said in my first post on this thread in early 2016.
We will glide down to a gentle landing, trading on WTO terms, and will manage whatever disruption occurs by using our £39 billion for the benefit of the UK public. There should be enough to build a few hospitals, and even buy a couple more of those red buses :police:
The EU will be begging us for a trade deal when the German car manufacturers start using their financial leverage.
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Look all you regular posters on in or out you all waffle on worse than the politicians it's soo boring!!
Cameron lived by the sword & died by it....end of.
It has to be a Brexiteer to get us out not a remoaner....end of
You are right Champs .
Then again this is a football forum , and what happens on a football forum ?
Well most of us have never managed or played the game for a living but we come on here and tell the chairman/manager/players how to go about their business .
How many of us on this thread have actually negotiated international £multi billion deals ?
Only politicians would be stupid enough to insist you lay your key cards on the table for the party you are negotiating with to see .
What we have witnessed over the past two years, has been a choreographed pantomime played out by two lead actors.
1, A remain dominated UK government
2, The EU
They have colluded to create this fiasco, in order to brainwash people into believing it's too difficult to leave. It's propagana and lies.
If The UK leaves totally, the EU regime will fail.
The very powerful vested interests are fighting with everything they have.
The public are being hoodwinked and we can do nothing about it.
Everything has already been decided, still more smoke and mirrors to come.
What a waste of time.
I couldn't agree more Dipodah, excellent summing up of possibly one of the biggest scams ever played out in history. There's several contenders, but this one's right up there :police:
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What worries me now Ed is another referendum looks on the cards.
: STAY IN THE EU
:VOTE FOR MAYS' CRAP AND VERY DAMAGING EXIT PLAN
Two options, neither of which we voted for >:( >:(
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What worries me now Ed is another referendum looks on the cards.
: STAY IN THE EU
:VOTE FOR MAYS' CRAP AND VERY DAMAGING EXIT PLAN
Two options, neither of which we voted for >:( >:(
IF they are the options given then I would scrub out the lower one and substitute "Leave", I know this would make my vote null and void, but, if every voter did the
same then the powers that be would be in a quandary.
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What worries me now Ed is another referendum looks on the cards.
: STAY IN THE EU
:VOTE FOR MAYS' CRAP AND VERY DAMAGING EXIT PLAN
Two options, neither of which we voted for >:( >:(
Remain should never appear on the ballot paper as that option was discarded in the 2016 People's Vote, with a massive turn out of the electorate.
If this happens then it will be clear that the Electoral Commission has been paid off by big businesses /the EU,/Soros/ Branson or any combination of these or others, the list is long. This fix will have been organised by establishment figures such as Blair, Major, and assorted Remainers, and such an event will signal the end of Democracy in the UK :police:
What happens after that will be interesting, if you overturn democracy what takes it's place? :police:
Theresa May is now being advised by Cameron :o
The whole country is being trolled! :o
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If "Remain" is on the ballot next time, and a majority of people vote for it, then "the will of the people" is that we don't do Brexit after all. So you can hardly complain the will of the people has somehow been subverted.
You're just a bit worried because all the Brexit options are very obviously crap and there's a decent chance that Brexit won't happen if people get to pick between the crap deals on offer and just staying put.
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The EU is an exclusive club. It reminds me of another exclusive club I know. The Mafia. Both have the same exit options, namely a body bag >:(
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Pete..
you are an educated man and i respect your opinion
but do you feel the EU at present is a good thing?
if we were not in it would you think it would be a good idea to join?
is it a worry that some of its member states are reported as being bankrupt or very close to it?
surely we cant just print money?
should the UK be one of those putting more in than it gets out? (i guess that can be explained away by some advanced economics)
Do you feel that the initial premise of a free trade area has been replaced by something far bigger, far more unwieldy?
is the way Brussels is making things awkward for us to leave is to show others (Italy and Greece spring to mind) on just how difficult they will make it for anyone wanting out?
i voted out as you may have guessed, in some ways i hope there is a second referendum and the vote is much wider one way or the other. i hate this division.
Maybe those who didn't vote may just come out .. lets just hope its not raining :)
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If "Remain" is on the ballot next time, and a majority of people vote for it, then "the will of the people" is that we don't do Brexit after all. So you can hardly complain the will of the people has somehow been subverted.
You're just a bit worried because all the Brexit options are very obviously crap and there's a decent chance that Brexit won't happen if people get to pick between the crap deals on offer and just staying put.
Several countries have had a second referendum concerning the EU. From memory I think the first result was overturned bar one.
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Pete..
you are an educated man and i respect your opinion
but do you feel the EU at present is a good thing?
if we were not in it would you think it would be a good idea to join?
is it a worry that some of its member states are reported as being bankrupt or very close to it?
surely we cant just print money?
should the UK be one of those putting more in than it gets out? (i guess that can be explained away by some advanced economics)
Do you feel that the initial premise of a free trade area has been replaced by something far bigger, far more unwieldy?
is the way Brussels is making things awkward for us to leave is to show others (Italy and Greece spring to mind) on just how difficult they will make it for anyone wanting out?
i voted out as you may have guessed, in some ways i hope there is a second referendum and the vote is much wider one way or the other. i hate this division.
Maybe those who didn't vote may just come out .. lets just hope its not raining :)
I think you have some valid points, especially about the EU's "project" extending far beyond its original remit into more of a political bloc. I have never pretended the EU is perfect. On the contrary, like all blocs of its size, it is beset by flaws, dodgy characters, bungling incompetence as well as being nearly incomprehensibly complicated.
That said.... the economic benefits we derive of pooling resources and being in a massive free market trading bloc cannot be underestimated. Nor can the cultural benefits - of thinking of Europeans as our friends and colleagues, rather than the classic Brexiteer world view of "the Spanish" (and the rest) being pesky upstart rivals we need to beat.
To chuck all that away for no tangible benefit still makes no sense to me, even now.
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If "Remain" is on the ballot next time, and a majority of people vote for it, then "the will of the people" is that we don't do Brexit after all. So you can hardly complain the will of the people has somehow been subverted.
Assuming democracy has been subverted by the establishment to the extent that there's another referendum and 'Remain' appears on the voting slip, it will make a mockery of everything we were told by Cameron, ie ' Once in a lifetime decision, your decision, will of the people, we WILL leave the EU, etc, etc'
If, in this purely hypothetical scenario, Leave came out on top again I'm sure we can expect another referendum to once again 'see if the will of the people has changed' before the end of the transition period.
If Remain was the favoured option in this hypothetical 2nd vote situation, would we then have another vote to check how the will of the people was shaping up a couple of years after we'd cancelled A50 and stayed in the EU? ???
Maybe its worth checking on the will of the people every two years ad infinitum from now on just in case :o
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That said.... the economic benefits we derive of pooling resources and being in a massive free market trading bloc cannot be underestimated. Nor can the cultural benefits - of thinking of Europeans as our friends and colleagues, rather than the classic Brexiteer world view of "the Spanish" (and the rest) being pesky upstart rivals we need to beat.
To chuck all that away for no tangible benefit still makes no sense to me, even now.
Maybe the significant opportunity we would have through the control of tariff schedules and regulatory autonomy has just passed you by? ???
With no major multilateral trade deal concluded for 23 years the global trading system is in crisis.
A major G7 nation adopting an independent trading policy for the first time in over 40 years is a huge global event that has never happened before and is unlikely to ever happen again.
The current trajectory of the global regulatory system would favour us as it is in a more anti-competitive and prescriptive direction.
We can benefit massively from having an independent trade policy as well as a comprehensive EU trading policy.
We have already rejected one comprehensive FTA with regulatory cooperation, customs facilitations, and Irish border facilitations, so a decent EU trade deal of some description will happen if/when we leave. :police:
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Regulatory autonomy doesn't really exist in practice though does it? The very nature of trade deals mean you are agreeing between you to align some regulations to facilitate the free(er) movement of goods, services (and sometimes people). And it's not like regulations were imposed upon us. We were part of the entity that created them. The simple fact of the matter is that in the real world, we'll simply adopt de facto regulatory alignment with our biggest trading partner (the EU) without having any say in the creation of those regulations. You might argue "ah but now we can do trade with Japan on whatever terms we like", but since they've got a trade deal with the EU and will also in many cases be meeting EU standards, our future deal with them might as well be broadly in line with what the EU and Japan have agreed, since divergence on either side simply wouldn't make any economic sense.
So again: really, what's the point?
But then, this has never really been about trade. Not for the architects of Brexit anyway. There are much darker forces at work here.
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Darker forces Pete??
It was the far right who warned us at the last referendum not to join .now its the far right (allegedly) who want us out... :)
Or maybe its the fear of globalization??
As i put in an earlier post if you look at the former yogoslavia as a microcosm of the EU where different creeds languages and cultures are put under one "heading" it doesnt end up well.
The biggest fear the Brussels types have is who will follow uk.
The Common Market has disappeared a long time ago and been replaced by the red tape ridden over bearing wasteful monster that the EU has become..
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A friend told me that Matty thinks that if his constituents voted again we would vote to remain.
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A friend told me that Matty thinks that if his constituents voted again we would vote to remain.
Nah, Boston would still vote to leave, I don't even think the %s would even change that much.
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Darker forces Pete??
It was the far right who warned us at the last referendum not to join .now its the far right (allegedly) who want us out... :)
Or maybe its the fear of globalization??
As i put in an earlier post if you look at the former yogoslavia as a microcosm of the EU where different creeds languages and cultures are put under one "heading" it doesnt end up well.
The biggest fear the Brussels types have is who will follow uk.
The Common Market has disappeared a long time ago and been replaced by the red tape ridden over bearing wasteful monster that the EU has become..
It didn't end well precisely because nationalists arrived on the scene and began pitting neighbour vs neighbour. Which is exactly what's happening right now in the UK. Nationalists are utter vermin, and I do not use that word lightly. They sow discord, hatred and misery, and ultimately start wars.
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A friend told me that Matty thinks that if his constituents voted again we would vote to remain.
Possibly Matt did say that Dip , from some of the stuff Matt tells me I think he's on another planet .
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A friend told me that Matty thinks that if his constituents voted again we would vote to remain.
Possibly Matt did say that Dip , from some of the stuff Matt tells me I think he's on another planet .
He ought to be, preferably the furthest one we know about!!
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A friend told me that Matty thinks that if his constituents voted again we would vote to remain.
Possibly Matt did say that Dip , from some of the stuff Matt tells me I think he's on another planet .
He ought to be, preferably the furthest one we know about!!
Nowhere near Pilgrim Hospital tonight in front of BBC Look North camera , another crisis through underfunding . A crisis at Louth hospital and Victoria Atkins MP within hours has the Town Hall booked and confronts the LNHS in front of her constituents .
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Matty votes for Mays' deal. The pre-planned shambles continues. We will not leave the EU. You have got to admire the devious way MPs are pulling this together :(
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Matty votes for Mays' deal. The pre-planned shambles continues. We will not leave the EU. You have got to admire the devious way MPs are pulling this together :(
Ah yes, it's all a massive conspiracy, and not just because everyone has their own opinion on what "Brexit" actually is....
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Left this thread alone but you are spot on Mick. It will now not happen and having voted out myself to be treated as an ignorant moron I will in future ignore democracy and do what is best for me and mine and will not give a fig about breaching Government rules and guidelines. Perhaps now the cretins can get on with important issues like privatising the NHS. Ignoring knife crime. Providing better quality cardboard boxes for the homeless to sleep in. Moving more swiftly to ensure prisoners are provided with large screen televisions and private phones in cells. Ensuring our borders are left open for all an sundry. And finally squeezing every penny out the elderly and ensure pensions will never be adequate to provide for heating and food.
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Bloody hell Mel. You're spot on. Back from hols got that stinking cold you got. I blame Brexit ;)
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Anyone reading page 17 of the Boston Standard this week will see a letter I have sent in response to Matt Warman Column in the previous weeks Standard . In his column Matty heralded the Cons introduction of their 10 year plan for the NHS , of cause this was a convenient way of avoiding the subjects like Brexit , violent crime ,and the appalling CQC report on the struggling sections of Pilgrim Hospital due to chronic underfunding over the last few years .
As in the above letter I urge everyone to go on the SOS Pilgrim Hospital Facebook and read the clinicians investigations into to governments NHS plans for the future , alarming !! As Mel predicts it is USA style privatisation . In years to come it will balance up with the present day tory introduced adage "heating or eating " with "medication or accommodation " whereby our future generations will be selling their homes to pay hospital bills .
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Left this thread alone but you are spot on Mick. It will now not happen and having voted out myself to be treated as an ignorant moron I will in future ignore democracy and do what is best for me and mine and will not give a fig about breaching Government rules and guidelines. Perhaps now the cretins can get on with important issues like privatising the NHS. Ignoring knife crime. Providing better quality cardboard boxes for the homeless to sleep in. Moving more swiftly to ensure prisoners are provided with large screen televisions and private phones in cells. Ensuring our borders are left open for all an sundry. And finally squeezing every penny out the elderly and ensure pensions will never be adequate to provide for heating and food.
Brexit is a right-wing power grab. Quite why people who clearly hate the Tories voted, in Brexit, for something that will make it easier for them to dismantle the welfare state and eradicate many of the hard-won rights of ordinary working people is beyond me. Hey ho.
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Anyone reading page 17 of the Boston Standard this week will see a letter I have sent in response to Matt Warman Column in the previous weeks Standard . In his column Matty heralded the Cons introduction of their 10 year plan for the NHS , of cause this was a convenient way of avoiding the subjects like Brexit , violent crime ,and the appalling CQC report on the struggling sections of Pilgrim Hospital due to chronic underfunding over the last few years .
As in the above letter I urge everyone to go on the SOS Pilgrim Hospital Facebook and read the clinicians investigations into to governments NHS plans for the future , alarming !! As Mel predicts it is USA style privatisation . In years to come it will balance up with the present day tory introduced adage "heating or eating " with "medication or accommodation " whereby our future generations will be selling their homes to pay hospital bills .
Again. Brexit is a Conservative's absolute dream, because when we sign our spanking new trade deal with the USA they'll demand access to provide healthcare services and likely usher in a new era of for-profit insurance-based healthcare (perhaps not as bad as over in the States, but still much more expensive then the NHS now). And the Brexiteers, all of whom are the kind of free-market demagogues you're moaning about, will more than happily hand them that access.
Yet again - if you voted for Brexit, this is what you voted for. It's not rocket science. Why are you now complaining as if this is some kind of massive shock?
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I agree with Pete’s points, just to add that the subject of the tories and their privatisation plan for the NHS was discussed on this thread pre referendum, so nobody here should be surprised. You were warned.
Just in case anyone thinks a US style private healthcare system is a good idea, consider that they spend more subsidising their health service than any other developed nation. Despite this they still come out bottom for overall care amongst those nations. In the UK on the other hand, despite squeezing our spending massively and being one of the lowest spenders, we remarkby come out close to the top. The reason for this should be obvious, the US government is subsiding private profit. People like Rees-Mogg, Johnson etc will no doubt make plenty in kickbacks if we go down that path.
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Exactly. The pro-Brexit crowd are pro-market, pro-small government, ultra-Thatcherites (even she would be appalled at what they're currently trying to pull off). That means cutting back all forms of the state - so they whip up the population into a frenzy about benefit scroungers, then the same people who vote them in are aghast when their pensions are cut, the local library closes, they find huge queues at their hospitals and wonder why crime starts going up.... even though they just voted in a party that is known for reducing the number of police stations and police.
We never learn, it seems.
If you voted for Brexit, you essentially voted for the dismantling of the NHS (the £350m lies are now well known), more expensive trips to the GPs and your healthcare farmed out to for-profit conglomerates, reduced workers' rights, smaller pensions, fewer police, reduced armed forces, rising levels of homelessness, fewer prison officers, less social housing.... the list goes on and on. Your beloved ERG leaders are all quite open about the kind of society they want post-Brexit, so again, none of this should be a shock.
Oh - and you also voted for more immigration, since a pre-condition of any trade deal struck with the Chinese and Indian governments will be millions of visas for their citizens. Still, they won't be coming to work the fields so at least there'll be fewer foreigners in Boston. Hope it was all worth it.
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Wow Pete, not project fear then ??? ???
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Wow Pete, not project fear then ??? ???
Project Inconvenient Facts
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Wow Pete, not project fear then ??? ???
It's all out there if you care to look at the politics of leading Brexit supporters. Keep believing in unicorns if you like.
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Any chance of Brexit looks likely to disappear over the weekend when they rule out the prospect completely by taking the WTO option off the table. Once no deal is ruled out, anything else is at best Brexit in name only, and we could end up with the worst case scenario of actually staying in. :o
"If your vote was worth anything you would never have been given it in the first place"
This only applies if you voted to leave the EU of course.
We can only hope that the fall out from this whole elaborate charade is not too damaging; the army is on standby ready to quash any signs of civil unrest, looks like game set and match to the EU Project, God help us all :o
Jean Monnet's corpse will be cartwheeling in his grave :police:
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Wow Pete, not project fear then ??? ???
It's all out there if you care to look at the politics of leading Brexit supporters. Keep believing in unicorns if you like.
i do believe in Unicorns... just sold 6 for a birthday party :)
back in the 70's it was staunch left wingers who warned about entry ... now its only right wingers who want out (apparently)... when did it change?
the EU is a mess.. countries either broke or on their way to being broke and a few nations keep helping them up.. how long can this continue?
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Wow Pete, not project fear then ??? ???
It's all out there if you care to look at the politics of leading Brexit supporters. Keep believing in unicorns if you like.
Not unicorns Pete >:( My only regret is being naive enough to believe we live in a democratic Country. Well you are never too old to learn >:(
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Wow Pete, not project fear then ??? ???
It's all out there if you care to look at the politics of leading Brexit supporters. Keep believing in unicorns if you like.
i do believe in Unicorns... just sold 6 for a birthday party :)
back in the 70's it was staunch left wingers who warned about entry ... now its only right wingers who want out (apparently)... when did it change?
the EU is a mess.. countries either broke or on their way to being broke and a few nations keep helping them up.. how long can this continue?
Italy on it's knees. Spain in chaos. Greece bankrupt. Portugal begging. Germany about to announce a recession etc etc. And we are cap in hand?? Come on Tories get a grip please they Need us!!
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If what Pete B wrote was Project Fear, what do you think Jacob Rees-Mogg and the rest of the ERG believe in?
Clearly not every person who voted leave has the same pro-privatization views as them, but I'm worried they might get control after Brexit. I voted remain not because I think being in the EU is any good, more that not being in it might be even worse.
And I think some left-wingers still do want to get out. Corbyn was anonymous during the actual referendum campaign - I assumed that was because he was a useless campaigner but the 2017 election showed that wasn't the case. I wonder if he would like to leave the EU even if he can't say so. If he ever became prime minister some of his interventionist plans might break EU state competition rules
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I'm going to hell ;D ;D
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Tusk's "hell" comment was aimed at people who promoted Brexit with literally no plan for how to implement it, so thanks for just admitting you wanted Brexit without knowing what Brexit would actually involve. I've long suspected it, but nice to hear you actually confess to it. No shame in admitting when you've got things very wrong.
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I am admitting nothing ;)
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Keep drinking the kool aid and telling yourself that :laugh:
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He is arrogant. One of my favourite conspiracy theories, when half the Polish government were killed in a plane crash. He did not fly at the last minute. He should have been on the plane. A suspicious crash. You drink the Kool aid Pete, and continue to back the most corrupt establishment in the world.
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has what you've witnessed over the last few months/years think "wow this EU thing is great, count me in"?
or has what you've witnessed opened your eyes to the way it (the EU) it operates.
i see where Italy owes a trillion... they will never ever repay that, how can a nation be allowed to rack up so much debt
add to that the others where maybe they've overspent and over borrowed. i simply cant see how or when the books will balance.
its a good idea that got out of hand..
if only we had listened to the far left of Benn, Foot and Shore.. they told us in the 70's the way it would go.
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It’s Tory boys Cameron and Osbourne that had no plan, they orchestrated the vote not the brexiteers. If I had my way there would never be another referendum on anything. We elect a government to govern end of.
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Hell will freeze over before I change my mind on membership of the EU. ;D
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I've lost the will to live :-[
The most incompetent bunch of politicians ever to represent the nation.
Pete, I've had enough :'(
We have another three months of this bull.
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I've lost the will to live :-[
The most incompetent bunch of politicians ever to represent the nation.
Pete, I've had enough :'(
We have another three months of this bull.
I've got absolutely no idea what's going on, or how this is going to end. My suspicion is that we're either in for a very long extension as we start again from scratch, or no extension at all. I can't see what use another three months is - it's too short to achieve anything.
I will agree though - our politicians are beyond useless.
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Its clear that our parliamentary system is broken, and 200 years out of date. The legislature should be separate from the executive to avoid such chaos IMO, but we are stuck with it for the foreseeable, so will just have to make the best of a bad job :police:
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Hungary or Italy veto the extension, or perhaps even the EU as a whole will veto it.
28th March parliament will be asked to vote on May's deal, no deal, or to revoke A50. That's my current view, but the circumstances seem to be rapidly changing.
I said right from the start of this thread that parliament would never let us leave the EU, and that hasn't changed... sadly its a Hotel California-style Brexit :o
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Hungary or Italy veto the extension, or perhaps even the EU as a whole will veto it.
28th March parliament will be asked to vote on May's deal, no deal, or to revoke A50. That's my current view, but the circumstances seem to be rapidly changing.
I said right from the start of this thread that parliament would never let us leave the EU, and that hasn't changed... sadly its a Hotel California-style Brexit :o
Yeah, Nigel Farage has been lobbying Hungary and Italy to have them veto any extension voted for by Parliament. If that's not traitorous collusion with foreign powers to thwart our democratically-elected Parliament, I don't know what is - but then again, I'm used to disgusting hypocrisy from him by now.
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Nearly as bad as the list of politicos who've been 'visiting' Barnier & Co since the biggest democratic exercise in this country's history delivered a verdict that they didn't like.
One of them generally perceived to have taken us into an illegal war that cost tens of thousands of lives, but let's not dwell on that.
If he's explaining to the EU how to thwart Brexit then that's fine, the charges of sedition and treason just fall away in comparison to the charge of mass murder :police:
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Nearly as bad as the list of politicos who've been 'visiting' Barnier & Co since the biggest democratic exercise in this country's history delivered a verdict that they didn't like.
One of them generally perceived to have taken us into an illegal war that cost tens of thousands of lives, but let's not dwell on that.
If he's explaining to the EU how to thwart Brexit then that's fine, the charges of sedition and treason just fall away in comparison to the charge of mass murder :police:
Hundreds of thousands, not tens of thousands.
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The Right Honorable member for Grantham and Stamford resigns... one less trying to overturn the biggest democratic decision ever taken by the people of the UK.
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What happens now? Bercow puts the skids under an early exit (or even any kind of exit). Interesting times.
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I don't know what happens next and l think they don't either, It's just a bloody embarrassing mess.
But another referendum will be so harmful to our democracy, the vote went for leave and whether any of us agree with it or not, that does not matter, what does matter is that we protect our precious democracy.
If you have never lived in a county without democracy,then try it.
I wager that you will soon be back to good old GB.
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Yes Old boy thin, but if we live in a country where a democratic vote is overturned by the actions of the Speaker, at the behest of the establishment 'elite', then we live in a country that is a democracy in name only.
Time to exercise your democratic right to peaceful protest before that too is removed; join the rally in London on the 29th, the Shires are rising :police:
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Yes Old boy thin, but if we live in a country where a democratic vote is overturned by the actions of the Speaker, at the behest of the capitalist 'elite', then we live in a country that is a democracy in name only.
Time to exercise your democratic right to peaceful protest before that too is removed; join the rally in London on the 29th, the Shires are rising :police:
Is that the 29th of this month, if so please PM the details.
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There's a march organised that started in Sunderland the other day and is making its way to London. There's only a few marchers at the moment but that will increase as word gets around. It finishes in London on the 29th March where there's a rally starting at 4.00pm.
Not a good idea to travel by road as its rumoured that the truckers will be doing their own thing on the day, and Fridays are generally bad anyway :police:
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Hahahaha, you guys are so funny.
So a second vote on whether to exit the EU now we know the terms of the deal = undemocratic.
Theresa May having a THIRD vote on her exit deal (that you've all been bleating is rubbish anyway) = democratic.
Make your minds up, you hypocrites.
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There's a march organised that started in Sunderland the other day and is making its way to London. There's only a few marchers at the moment but that will increase as word gets around. It finishes in London on the 29th March where there's a rally starting at 4.00pm.
Not a good idea to travel by road as its rumoured that the truckers will be doing their own thing on the day, and Fridays are generally bad anyway :police:
"As word gets around"?! Farage has been plugging it for weeks, it's been splashed across the newspapers and social media in the build-up and live news reports were broadcasting as it got underway at the the weekend... and there's still only about sixty people doing it, if that. How much more "word getting around" do you reckon it needs?! Honestly. This thread is increasingly becoming sheer comedy gold. Keep it up lads.
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There's a march organised that started in Sunderland the other day and is making its way to London. There's only a few marchers at the moment but that will increase as word gets around. It finishes in London on the 29th March where there's a rally starting at 4.00pm.
Not a good idea to travel by road as its rumoured that the truckers will be doing their own thing on the day, and Fridays are generally bad anyway :police:
"As word gets around"?! Farage has been plugging it for weeks, it's been splashed across the newspapers and social media in the build-up and live news reports were broadcasting as it got underway at the the weekend... and there's still only about sixty people doing it, if that. How much more "word getting around" do you reckon it needs?! Honestly. This thread is increasingly becoming sheer comedy gold. Keep it up lads.
No matter what it is or is not, It's a bloody mess.
What do you call a 100 politicians chained together at the bottom of the sea??
"A good start"
It's like EastEnders but with bad actors.
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We are now officially in a constitutional crisis, although unofficially that has been obvious for good while now.
Theresa May now has to abandon party politics and find out exactly what will command a majority in Parliament before the 29th March, otherwise the EU will not grant an extension and we have the 'No Deal' situation. :police:
WTO is the way forward IMO, they will soon be begging us for a trade deal and we will be 39 billion quid better off... lets just GTFO for fecks sake! :o :police:
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If we don't stump up the £39bn that WE AGREED we owe, how do you think that's going to go down with the Chinese, Japanese and Indians? How trustworthy a negotiating partner do you think reneging on agreed commitments makes us look to them? Not to mention the EU trade negotiators you claim will be "begging" for a deal... (they won't).
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The 10 day countdown has begun! ;D
Since the Speaker yesterday ruled MV3 ultra vires, and there's no plan B, the Maybot has 10 days to totally change course, run a series of indicative votes through Parliament, and then go back to the EU cap in hand and beg for an extension.
If all that can happen in time it will mean Brexit in name only, as the only thing the MPs would agree on is a customs union /single market arrangement, which is not what 17.4 million people voted for.
Absent May's ability to perform the above mentioned parliamentary contortions, we will exit at 11pm on the 29th March, which is what MPs voted for overwhelmingly when they passed Article 50 a couple of years ago... lets go WTO! :police: 8)
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Pop over and take a look at Boston Docks - reckon they'll get the new customs inspection posts ready in ten days? What about all the new officers needed to inspect the goods coming in? Are they nearly close to finishing their training? If we're going WTO in ten days we'll need both to be finished by now, so be a lamb and post some pictures on here of how they're getting on....
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May is allegedly writing a letter to the EU requesting both a short term AND a long term delay.
Her hope is that, if accepted, this letter will become a legally binding text of sufficient gravitas to obviate the Speaker's 1604 objection, and enable her to re-present her deal for a third time next week.
If she gets it through parliament, which seems unlikely, the short term delay kicks in (30th June) , if not the whole thing gets put back to June 2020 :o :'(
Of course there's no guarantee the EU 27 will all agree to allow an extension at all, in which case out we go WTO! :laugh:
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If the EU reject the extension then there's a very good chance Article 50 will be revoked completely and Brexit postponed indefinitely. Anyone sane knows WTO to be a catastrophe, and thankfully there are just about enough sane people in charge to avert it.
Notice you haven't answered my question. Bit awkward when reality gets in the way of your fantasies innit?
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Barnier was very amused at the idea of the two-step extension request by May when questioned a couple of minutes ago.
He stated that everyone should prepare for 'No Deal'; it's looking like over we go WTO! :police:
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The Attorney General's office has just been 'stormed' by yellow vest wearing protesters according to the London Evening Standard. They are demanding justice for the three, the three stooges maybe?
Civil unrest on the streets of London, who'd of thought it would happen over here :police:
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Stop bleating on about WTO. It's not going to happen.
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May's looking a bit rocky on the oche, with both the men in grey suits (1922 committee)and senior cabinet ministers asking to meet her today.
Could today be curtains for the Maybot? :o :police:
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May's looking a bit rocky on the oche, with both the men in grey suits (1922 committee)and senior cabinet ministers asking to meet her today.
Could today be curtains for the Maybot? :o :police:
I would be surprised if it's today, they need a scapegoat and she fits the bill :D
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She's going nowhere til this has been resolved.
Not one MP has the guts to own this decision, so she'll remain as the hostage PM
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Yes, the Maybot marches on. You have to admire her tenacity and resilience, Ken Clarke was right when he described her as a bloody difficult woman. ;D
According to Tusk the MPs either vote for her deal or there's no extension to Article 50, which means the odds on a WTO Brexit are shortening dramatically no matter what Tony Blair and others of his ilk might say. :police: :laugh:
Could end up with the choice between 'No Deal', or revoking Article 50. The majority of the MPs will want to cancel Brexit if it reaches that point, but would they be brave enough to overturn the result of biggest democratic exercise this country has ever held? ??? :police:
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Yes, the Maybot marches on. You have to admire her tenacity and resilience, Ken Clarke was right when he described her as a bloody difficult woman. ;D
According to Tusk the MPs either vote for her deal or there's no extension to Article 50, which means the odds on a WTO Brexit are shortening dramatically no matter what Tony Blair and others of his ilk might say. :police: :laugh:
Could end up with the choice between 'No Deal', or revoking Article 50. The majority of the MPs will want to cancel Brexit if it reaches that point, but would they be brave enough to overturn the result of biggest democratic exercise this country has ever held? ??? :police:
Nothing would surprise me ED. In earlier posts I said we would not be allowed to leave. The two options open to us now, is May's VERY BAD deal or remaining in the EU.
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Yes Dipodah, but the WTO exit is still the legal default under EU and UK law, so 3 outcomes available.
May's deal could be off the table come Monday. After her speech tonight MPs are getting death threats; she decided to appeal to the public and blame the chaos on the MPs, which is hardly conducive to getting them to change their minds.
So Tuesday we could find ourselves with the remaining two choices, and what a choice that would be for our MPs.
Matt would have to vote for WTO having voted to keep no deal on the table last week. 8) :police:
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Matt's already said he'll support a WTO exit. Should it happen, he'll have to account for his decision at the future public inquiry - and I imagine by the time that rolls around all you lot will either have vanished or will be pretending you never supported it or even voted leave in the first place :D
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Matt's already said he'll support a WTO exit. Should it happen, he'll have to account for his decision at the future public inquiry - and I imagine by the time that rolls around all you lot will either have vanished or will be pretending you never supported it or even voted leave in the first place :D
Even with the smiley face, I take your comment as an affront to my integrity, I voted leave, would still vote leave either as "No Deal" or "WTO".
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Good for you. I'm sure there are people who'd vote to bring back capital punishment too. Doesn't make them right.
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'What matters is that parliament delivers on the Referendum result', this was May's response a couple of hours ago when asked if the UK would leave next Friday under WTO if her deal is voted down.
She's upset the Speaker, so the little fella will probably throw another massive spanner in the works to try and stop her deal coming back for the third time.
Meanwhile Macron is allegedly against granting even a short extension.
Its looking more likely to be a choice between the No Deal/WTO, or MPs revoking Article 50 leaving us as the laughing stock of the world and killing off democracy in one fell swoop :'( :police:
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Let's reconvene here this time next week and see how your WTO Brexit is going ;D
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Its looking like May 22nd is the extension end date preferred by the EU 27, and Macron has warned that if May's deal is voted down for the third time, which it will be, then the UK leaves with no deal.
He doesn't want to publicly admit that he knows that MPs will just overturn the Brexit vote. They're really trying to force us into May's 'punishment deal' that Robbins negotiated with his EU buddies.
Amusing to hear the little fella telling the MPs in the house that they were 'not traitors' after the Maybot's speech last night. She really has been badly advised throughout her tenure by a series of civil servant. Its hardly surprising as its no secret that most of the civil service wanted to remain in the EU.
The Leave vote was up against it from day one and would anyone have even bothered to turn up to vote if they knew that their vote was meaningless, and that the result would ultimately be overturned by the very people who we expect to represent us? ???
The March 29th London rally could turn very nasty. We can only hope that enough MPs realise what a catastrophe it will be to revoke article 50, and vote to take us out as a sovereign nation trading globally under WTO. :police:
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My word, you really don't have much of a grasp of what's going on here do you?
It's not the civil servants May has been listening to, or is in the grip of. If you had spent any time monitoring what they've been saying over the last two years, you'd know what she has in fact been steadfastly ignoring them. The only people who seem to have May's ear are the ERG, and it's them you can blame for the current crisis simply because they've overreached themselves and - loathe as I am to come across all metropolitan liberal elite - aren't a particularly intelligent bunch of people. They're also a bunch of pathological and demonstrable liars, and as I've said before, it wouldn't surprise me to see some of them in prison once this is all over.
Anyone seeking a WTO exit right now, in the face of all the available evidence of the damage it would cause to the economy, is right up there with flat-earthers, fake moon-landing believers and 9/11 conspiracy theorists in the "cranks whose opinion we can safely ignore" stakes.
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So this weekend MPs have to decide whether to re-configure the structure of political parties in this country, which doesn't happen too often :o, or back May's deal.
May's deal looks dead in the water, but the way project fear is ramping up the rhetoric on all the mainstream news channels, and with an army of Internet trolls across social media, you never know.
I'm listening to local radio, driving across Kent, and it is really getting ramped up to the point of hysteria. Operation 'Yellowhammer' has been programmed to start Monday, they had similar plans in place during WW2 when we were expecting the German invasion :o
They are also warning parents in Kent to make contingency plans because their children may be sent home from school if the level of traffic fumes from thousands of backed up lorries becomes too high. :police:
If the fear-mongering wins through, and MPs back her deal, we will be left with a deal so bad, one that nobody wants, and one that has been rammed down our throats. We will then be offered the chance to rejoin the EU at the very first opportunity; the contingency arrangement agreed by Robbins etc to ensure that if the UK does somehow manage to extract itself from the EU, it will be for the shortest possible period. :police:
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Tory MP Jake Berry said today that civil servants and officials are 'straining every sinew' to stop Brexit... well who'd of thought it possible? :o
The electoral commission's judgment on the Leave campaign's funding has been overturned this week by the Appeal Court.
So no cheating after all; we can push on for the Brexit we voted for with a clear conscience. The only cheating was on the side of the remain campaign when they spent £9million of our money on their leaflets.
It has also emerged that the £350 million figure on the side of the bus is now incorrect. The figure is rising fast and will hit £438m by 2022, which makes it approx £394m per week this year if you interpolate :o :police:
A remarkable saving when added to the £39 billion lump sum that we can trouser if we do end up on WTO terms.
Over 40% of our trade is already done under WTO so we'll just up that to 100% until the EU come begging for a trade deal.
No deal, no problem 8)
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Matt Warman is in favour of 'no deal' and will vote against revoking Article 50 if that comes up.
Fair play to Matty who was a Leaver but now respects the democratic vote (or he's looking after his job prospects).
Pity there's not a few more like him. If we were all working together towards Brexit and there weren't so many trying to undermine democracy we'd be celebrating on the 29th March instead of having to delay.
:police:
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Big protest in London today, a march in support of another vote on Brexit. BBC will be all over it. Over four million sign an online petition to revoke article 50, some dodgy votes detected but still a big following. March 29th a pro brexit march set to hit London, I can see trouble happening that day.
I think we will soon be seeing major unrest on the streets, a throwback to the Thatcher riots of the 80's. I hope not, but I fear the worst.
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There may be 4 million signatures on anti-brexit petition, but that's one hell of a long way short of 17.4 million that voted leave, and, correct me if I'm wrong, I
believe Mrs May stated she would only look at it if the signatures on the petition were higher than the Brexit vote!!
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I agree Ernie, but with the BBC ( Bias Brexit Coverage ) reporting on all things anti Brexit, some people are gradually being brainwashed. People who had no interest or were undecided in the referendum are being targeted.
I can see another referendum being called, with loaded options splitting the original leave vote.
Anyway, interesting times ahead, I just hope they deliver on the nation's vote >:(
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I agree Ernie, but with the BBC ( Bias Brexit Coverage ) reporting on all things anti Brexit, some people are gradually being brainwashed. People who had no interest or were undecided in the referendum are being targeted.
I can see another referendum being called, with loaded options splitting the original leave vote.
Anyway, interesting times ahead, I just hope they deliver on the nation's vote >:(
Yes, 99% of people who actually know things warning that WTO is a terrible idea is definitely "brainwashing".... christ, this thread gets worse every time I look at it. You'd think you guys are worried about something.
Just admit it. Your glorious leaders messed up big time in not pursuing a soft Brexit that delivered on the referendum, didn't trash the economy and reflected the close nature of the result. I could have lived with a Norway-style deal. But no: your ERG lads went full out for hard Brexit, with the result you may well now get no Brexit at all. They're thick as mince. And please stop with the lies that everyone knew that voting out also meant leaving the SM and CU - they didn't, so please stop saying it.
That horrendous mess isn't the fault of the remainers, or MPs or anyone else. It's yours - own it.
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how the chuff will this ever be sorted?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/274179/national-debt-in-eu-countries/
the amounts countries are owing each other is ridiculous...
the figure of £39 billion to be paid is roughly £700 a piece,,, why dont they "rebate" us with it ? at least it might get spent in UK :)
having said that, £39 billion seems a lot but in these days of ridiculous amounts its a drop in the ocean.
many youngsters saying their future had been stolen... best get saving boys and girls cos someone at sometime is going to have to repay it.
the austerity we have seen may have been easy to what it might be.....
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Well, last week, the ex-Permanent Secretary of the Department for International Trade under Liam Fox said that the post-Brexit trade deals we'll get will be significantly worse than those we have now as members of the EU, because we now have much less to offer. So of course we're going to be a poorer nation as a whole, it's not rocket science it is? Brexit will make smaller, poorer and weaker, without any kind of say over the rules and standards we'll have to follow. Thanks a bunch.
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I have decided to lock this thread. I have decided to do it now, before we get to know if we leave or not. This is a very friendly forum for all things Boston United, and this thread has somewhat taken over. Passions seem to run a bit high at times, which makes for healthy debate.
Thanks to all who have contributed UTP :)
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...have you unlocked it Dipodah or is it just a temporary reprise? ;D
I suppose we know we're not leaving now so you may as well unlock in time for the peaceful rally in Parliament Square. :police: :police: :police:
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I keep locking it and every time I log in it unlocks. I have sent a pm to Ken :)