Pilgrims' Patter

The Forum => The B-Ark => Topic started by: Dipdodah on March 02, 2016, 09:38:58 AM

Title: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on March 02, 2016, 09:38:58 AM
In June we all have to make one of the most important decisions of our lives.  How we vote in June will map out this country's future for generations.

Do we vote to leave the EU ?

Or do we stop in ?

I would think how the people of Boston vote has more meaning than say certain other parts of the country.

I just wonder how the general feeling is, on this a local forum.

No racist comments please.

I will start it off,  I am voting OUT.  I did not vote for us to enter the EU and I have not changed my mind.

I think the town of Boston get a pretty raw deal (funding wise).  We have a very high percentage of migrants, yet no extra funding to help.  Our schools, doctors, hospital and roads are under extreme pressure.

If this is okay with Ken, a lively debate please.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on March 02, 2016, 10:15:56 AM
I think the slogan is going to be GTFO!   ;) 8)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on March 02, 2016, 06:53:24 PM
out..........
obviously might change if the Quadrant is EU backed :)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: hozzer on March 02, 2016, 07:33:43 PM
if as a country we voted out would that mean premiership teams couldn't play in the champions league?, if so I'm voting out because Im sick of the over hyped crap, its even worse than watching the premier league over paid arrogant w**kers!

sorry, having a bad day - out
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pilgrim86 on March 02, 2016, 07:57:33 PM
if as a country we voted out would that mean premiership teams couldn't play in the champions league?

The vote is about the EU, not UEFA...
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: hozzer on March 02, 2016, 08:49:08 PM
I did make my vote Pilgrim86, its out. Whats your's, thats what the threads about not making remarks about other peoples posts.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Winging It on March 02, 2016, 09:16:38 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Cavalier on March 02, 2016, 11:27:36 PM
If you think you know the answer you haven't understood the question.  I will continue to listen to the arguments for In or Out and when the time comes I will vote.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: nelliee on March 03, 2016, 08:04:32 AM
Out 1 - 0 Stay
Att: 64.1 Million
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: yam man on March 03, 2016, 09:49:47 AM
Suddenly the rest of the EU loves us and are worried about our welfare if we leave. I wonder why.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pilgrim86 on March 03, 2016, 10:26:11 AM
I did make my vote Pilgrim86, its out. Whats your's, thats what the threads about not making remarks about other peoples posts.
I answered your question.

I'm unsure, but leaning towards IN.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on March 03, 2016, 10:35:33 AM
Suddenly the rest of the EU loves us and are worried about our welfare if we leave. I wonder why.

Exactly .

I suspect Dave has been stitched up by the EU .  Like many of us Tory loyalist they see him as a man with lots of bluster and no delivery .

NO IFS ,   NO BUTS .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on March 03, 2016, 11:28:32 AM
I did make my vote Pilgrim86, its out. Whats your's, thats what the threads about not making remarks about other peoples posts.
I answered your question.

I'm unsure, but leaning towards IN.
i voted IN when i was young.............i was voting for a free trade market...nothing more
however it has changed..........changed a lot....it is now a red tape ridden juggernaut.....
this time its OUT for me.

the biggest worry should be for you younger types is if Turkey  join then they can give out passports.
anyone one with an EU passport can travel ANYWHERE within the union.................
just take a moment to think that through......................
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on March 03, 2016, 04:30:33 PM
It is supposed to be a level playing field for both the camps.

But I see the government has put a block on the various government offices releasing any figures that can be used to influence an exit vote. >:(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Deeping Pilgrim on March 03, 2016, 05:05:03 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Fairfax on March 07, 2016, 01:29:11 AM
First point. Nobody voted to be in the EU, because there was no EU when the previous referendum was held. It was to a vote to be a member of an economic community, aka the Common Market, which was supposed to make the movement of goods easier with lower tariffs. I'm still waiting for significantly lower taxes that the government of the time promised if we voted in favour.

Subsequently, our leaders signed a treaty giving away our sovereignty without consulting the people. Unquestionably, this was an act of high treason and the perpetrators would at any other time in history, have been brought to trial and executed.

This is the first and probably the only opportunity for the population to reclaim the lawful rights of the British people. Failure to do this will mean that we will be inevitably drawn deeper into a superstate where we have little or no say in our destiny. All the arguments about compromise are irrelevant. No ifs, no buts to quote a certain culpable politician; we must get out of something we don't believe in. The evidence that we are not part of this pernicious European dream is clear. We have refused to join the Euro. We have refused to commit to the Shengen agreement regarding free movement over boundaries. We have just participated in a pointless exercise to pull back some of the commitments to which we had previously agreed. In other words, we don't believe in the superstate dream and we certainly don't want to immerse ourselves in the idea.

We want our country back and there is only one way to achieve it. The way out may be involved and complicated, depending on which politicians are allowed to stick their oar in, but June 23rd will be a historic day for the nation. If we stay in, it will be the last day for us as a nation.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Old Pilgrim on March 07, 2016, 09:47:52 AM
Well said, Fairfax! Agree 100%
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: ceamboy on March 07, 2016, 10:13:47 AM


Agree 100% Fairfax, couldn't have put it better, well done.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on March 07, 2016, 10:29:19 AM
First point. Nobody voted to be in the EU, because there was no EU when the previous referendum was held. It was to a vote to be a member of an economic community, aka the Common Market, which was supposed to make the movement of goods easier with lower tariffs. I'm still waiting for significantly lower taxes that the government of the time promised if we voted in favour.

Subsequently, our leaders signed a treaty giving away our sovereignty without consulting the people. Unquestionably, this was an act of high treason and the perpetrators would at any other time in history, have been brought to trial and executed.

This is the first and probably the only opportunity for the population to reclaim the lawful rights of the British people. Failure to do this will mean that we will be inevitably drawn deeper into a superstate where we have little or no say in our destiny. All the arguments about compromise are irrelevant. No ifs, no buts to quote a certain culpable politician; we must get out of something we don't believe in. The evidence that we are not part of this pernicious European dream is clear. We have refused to join the Euro. We have refused to commit to the Shengen agreement regarding free movement over boundaries. We have just participated in a pointless exercise to pull back some of the commitments to which we had previously agreed. In other words, we don't believe in the superstate dream and we certainly don't want to immerse ourselves in the idea.

We want our country back and there is only one way to achieve it. The way out may be involved and complicated, depending on which politicians are allowed to stick their oar in, but June 23rd will be a historic day for the nation. If we stay in, it will be the last day for us as a nation.

If I had a way with words that is exactly what I would have said ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on March 07, 2016, 10:31:39 AM
Excellent points well made Fairfax  8)
GTFO!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on March 07, 2016, 11:01:03 AM
First point. Nobody voted to be in the EU, because there was no EU when the previous referendum was held. It was to a vote to be a member of an economic community, aka the Common Market, which was supposed to make the movement of goods easier with lower tariffs. I'm still waiting for significantly lower taxes that the government of the time promised if we voted in favour.

Subsequently, our leaders signed a treaty giving away our sovereignty without consulting the people. Unquestionably, this was an act of high treason and the perpetrators would at any other time in history, have been brought to trial and executed.

This is the first and probably the only opportunity for the population to reclaim the lawful rights of the British people. Failure to do this will mean that we will be inevitably drawn deeper into a superstate where we have little or no say in our destiny. All the arguments about compromise are irrelevant. No ifs, no buts to quote a certain culpable politician; we must get out of something we don't believe in. The evidence that we are not part of this pernicious European dream is clear. We have refused to join the Euro. We have refused to commit to the Shengen agreement regarding free movement over boundaries. We have just participated in a pointless exercise to pull back some of the commitments to which we had previously agreed. In other words, we don't believe in the superstate dream and we certainly don't want to immerse ourselves in the idea.

We want our country back and there is only one way to achieve it. The way out may be involved and complicated, depending on which politicians are allowed to stick their oar in, but June 23rd will be a historic day for the nation. If we stay in, it will be the last day for us as a nation.
well said Fairfax (of New Model Army fame? Cromwell, not the band)
ive took the liberty of posting it on facebook...
thank you
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: bostonwoody on March 07, 2016, 12:00:29 PM
Well said Fairfax.

Have you ever thought of standing for PM?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on March 07, 2016, 07:58:59 PM
Some debate this is, we are all in agreement.  At this rate 100% support for exit.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: spannerman on March 07, 2016, 10:10:55 PM
Faifax for our local M P got to be better than what we have got .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Tipps End Pilgrim on March 08, 2016, 07:39:14 AM
Let's blame the Tories - they took us in ! To be fair, not many at the time opposed the move. Maybe more should have listened to Tony Benn - but that's hindsight for you.

TEP
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on March 08, 2016, 06:28:32 PM
Let's blame the Tories - they took us in ! To be fair, not many at the time opposed the move. Maybe more should have listened to Tony Benn - but that's hindsight for you.

TEP

I was a postman at the time, and delivered all the bumf.  Every time I handed one out I got the same reply.  " I fought for this country I am not going to give it away "   Not one person I met said they wanted to join.

Yet we joined with an overwhelming majority.

I remember we were told that wages would increase, and we would get more holidays to come in line with Europe.  I am still waiting.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Bostonshire on March 08, 2016, 09:48:48 PM
Let's blame the Tories - they took us in ! To be fair, not many at the time opposed the move. Maybe more should have listened to Tony Benn - but that's hindsight for you.

TEP

I was a postman at the time, and delivered all the bumf.  Every time I handed one out I got the same reply.  " I fought for this country I am not going to give it away "   Not one person I met said they wanted to join.

Yet we joined with an overwhelming majority.

I remember we were told that wages would increase, and we would get more holidays to come in line with Europe.  I am still waiting.

It only be the same this time, dont matter if 90% vote out it still be a majority to stay in, we dont have the transparancy in the uk to know any different
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on March 09, 2016, 09:29:29 AM
Let's blame the Tories - they took us in ! To be fair, not many at the time opposed the move. Maybe more should have listened to Tony Benn - but that's hindsight for you.

TEP

I was a postman at the time, and delivered all the bumf.  Every time I handed one out I got the same reply.  " I fought for this country I am not going to give it away "   Not one person I met said they wanted to join.

Yet we joined with an overwhelming majority.

I remember we were told that wages would increase, and we would get more holidays to come in line with Europe.  I am still waiting.

It only be the same this time, dont matter if 90% vote out it still be a majority to stay in, we dont have the transparancy in the uk to know any different

You are as bad as me Bostonshire with your conspiracy theory.

But you are right, how do we know?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on March 09, 2016, 11:18:42 AM
Some debate this is, we are all in agreement.  At this rate 100% support for exit.

According to one newspaper today even the Queen is backing you Dip .

A NO vote majority in June and you could become Sir Mick !!! 8) ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on March 10, 2016, 11:00:57 AM
Liz and I think the same. When I get my knighthood, will you still talk to me GHM? 8)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: lonegunman on March 10, 2016, 08:45:13 PM
Ah, but you forget about all those poor MEP's. Now what will they all do if we come out? Will they ever get jobs, most are married with families, please think of the children!   ::)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on March 19, 2016, 11:05:49 AM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on March 19, 2016, 12:28:38 PM
Things are getting messy :)

IDS resigns, or was he pushed?

Beware if you are a Eurosceptic and do not toe the line ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: kingofnaves on March 19, 2016, 11:39:47 PM
Eu out and den out!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on March 22, 2016, 10:44:56 AM
Slightly off topic, but our thoughts go out to the people of Brussels today after another cowardly attack.  Looks like they are striking at the heart of European government.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on March 22, 2016, 01:17:49 PM
Reports of at least one British casualty, I suppose its just a matter of time before we get hit over here again.
Several hundred jehadi 'fighters' returned to the UK already apparently, and thats just the ones on the radar.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Winging It on March 22, 2016, 02:58:32 PM
Eu out and den out!

Predictatble KINGOFMOANS !  :bunny :bunny
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on March 25, 2016, 09:37:26 AM
According to Panorama, Europol know that a terrorist visited the UK a few weeks ago and took photos of a football ground near Birmingham - it would be good to be confident that they've let the UK intelligence know,  but after the Intel debacle of Brussels,  it makes you wonder
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on March 26, 2016, 09:18:19 AM
250 top company bosses put their weight behind Brexit today. :D.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on March 26, 2016, 12:50:15 PM
According to Panorama, Europol know that a terrorist visited the UK a few weeks ago and took photos of a football ground near Birmingham - it would be good to be confident that they've let the UK intelligence know,  but after the Intel debacle of Brussels,  it makes you wonder

Solihull ?  ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on April 06, 2016, 06:17:39 PM
9.3 million pounds of OUR money to be spent by the government on a leaflet drop to convince us to stay in Europe.

Not a level playing field me thinks >:( >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on April 10, 2016, 08:34:43 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on April 11, 2016, 08:32:44 PM
A busy day for the postmen today delivering Dodgy Dave,s EU propaganda .
Looks likely to be another busy one for them tomorrow emptying letter boxes , I would guess W H SMITH are selling more brown envelopes than they did in Fat Mcfauds era .

Those like me wishing to support Dave,s recycling drive can return return the pamphlet to : :)

  Attn Joanna George.
          FREEPOST RSBB-XRZT-ZTXE .
          The Conservative Party Foundation,
          30 Millbank,
          London.
          SW1P   4
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: aggy on April 11, 2016, 09:07:47 PM
In.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Imp Stalker on April 13, 2016, 03:17:10 PM
This mailing is part of due process for elections though.

We'll all get one from the Vote Leave camp too.  Allowing both parties fund to put forward their views and inform the known electorate sounds pretty fair to me
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on April 13, 2016, 06:32:11 PM
This mailing is part of due process for elections though.

We'll all get one from the Vote Leave camp too.  Allowing both parties fund to put forward their views and inform the known electorate sounds pretty fair to me

One is self funding, the other funded by us.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Imp Stalker on April 13, 2016, 08:20:44 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on April 14, 2016, 10:26:31 AM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Cavalier on April 14, 2016, 01:32:19 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on April 14, 2016, 09:04:38 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on April 14, 2016, 10:22:47 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on April 15, 2016, 10:34:13 AM
I think traffic wardens will vote IN as they show an affection for international tolerance .

Heard cases of dodgy parking tickets issued in recent days, for example a  car rear hanging over badly marked yellow lines by 3ins in one case .

Yesterday I witnessed a car parked a considerable distance over the yellow lines in West St in front of the main entrance to the Municipal Buildings .  Later on  my return from shopping it was still retaining the same spot with no apparent parking ticket issued .

Can anyone tell me where I can purchase a set of these number plates with a white background and black lettering ?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on April 15, 2016, 02:38:44 PM
I think traffic wardens will vote IN as they show an affection for international tolerance .

Heard cases of dodgy parking tickets issued in recent days, for example a  car rear hanging over badly marked yellow lines by 3ins in one case .

Yesterday I witnessed a car parked a considerable distance over the yellow lines in West St in front of the main entrance to the Municipal Buildings .  Later on  my return from shopping it was still retaining the same spot with no apparent parking ticket issued .

Can anyone tell me where I can purchase a set of these number plates with a white background and black lettering ?

You are not suggesting that there is one rule for us and another for EU migrants, concerning road traffic violations ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on April 15, 2016, 07:17:27 PM
Everything that goes on in and around that building is a violation of some description  :dan
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on April 15, 2016, 07:59:38 PM
Everything that goes on in and around that building is a violation of some description  :dan
lol
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on April 18, 2016, 09:33:51 AM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Bostonshire on April 18, 2016, 03:30:08 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on April 18, 2016, 10:21:40 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on April 19, 2016, 11:08:01 AM
Osbourne claiming what the financial position will be in 15 years time !!!!!!!

This from the man who has produced budgets that have been proved  flawed  within 15 days .       
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on April 21, 2016, 01:39:20 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on April 24, 2016, 11:06:48 AM
I would like to say a BIG thank you to Obama.  Your comments have  given the Brexit camp a big boost.  I would think the don't knows are now leaning towards leave.  We will be last in the queue for a trade deal and first in the queue to help USA invade some other oil rich country. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on April 24, 2016, 11:37:34 AM
His time would have been better spent in USA reforming gun laws . :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on April 24, 2016, 06:25:49 PM
Anyone at the back of Cameron/Obama's 'queue' at the moment will be doing their deal long before the one supposedly at the front of this 'queue', is ratified (the TTIP deal between the US and the EU).
Obama reckons it will be agreed by the end of this year, but it then has to be ratified by all the EU member states. Tens of thousands of people have been out on the streets in europe protesting about TTIP, so good luck with that one Barack  :dan
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: lonegunman on April 24, 2016, 06:45:43 PM
I wonder if the dead pig shagger had anything to do with Obama saying that. I'm far from being an American, but the word 'queue' is not in their vocabulary. Over there you join a 'line' or get to the end of the 'line' That slimy bas#ard we have as a PM and his bumboy Chancellor both want us to stay in.
Now neither of them have done fook all for the working folk of this country, i don't expect them to be interested in us at this stage. Personally i'll be voting out, if i'm going to be fooked over by the powers at be, let them be ones i actually know, and not some faceless wanker in Brussels.   
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on April 25, 2016, 12:13:43 AM
The UK is a Level One partner in the F35 Joint Strike Fighter Project, with much of the tail being developed by BAE , and the central lifting fan by Rolls-Royce.
Obama would have us believe that the entire F35 collaboration would be cancelled and therfore the whole project will be scrapped if we vote to leave.  Also Boeing Aircraft and Ford Motors would hardly be likely to cease trading with the UK, and the Americans would not want to stop importing Jaguar/Landrover.
It's so absurd that the Remainiac scaremongers will next be telling us that Macdonalds will disappear overnight if we vote leave  :dan
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on April 25, 2016, 10:28:04 AM
An article today in the Huffington Post reports that the winner in the campaign so far is "LIES" .    At last a bit of truth reported  :)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on April 25, 2016, 10:45:35 AM
An article today in the Huffington Post reports that the winner in the campaign so far is "LIES" .    At last a bit of truth reported  :)

A very IRONIC post for a Monday morning my old friend. :laugh:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on May 02, 2016, 01:51:07 PM
Any one noticed the lack of reporting by the media, concerning the immigration crisis in Greece, Italy etc?

In this country of the free, have the media been gagged?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on May 02, 2016, 02:52:48 PM
Any one noticed the lack of reporting by the media, concerning the immigration crisis in Greece, Italy etc?

In this country of the free, have the media been gagged?

No need for the media to be gagged Dip ,    many political journalist are like Geo and Dodgy Dave ,   Etonians who have never had a proper job .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on May 02, 2016, 05:37:38 PM
Any one noticed the lack of reporting by the media, concerning the immigration crisis in Greece, Italy etc?

In this country of the free, have the media been gagged?

It's all going tits up in Germany too with their batch of refugees.  The authorities are preventing the press from reporting the full extent of the problems with health care etc but some of it is getting out via social media and it sounds pretty dire.

Made me laugh when the remainiacs launched their latest bit of scaremongering - apparently if we leave the EU it will affect the environment to the extent that we will be unable to meet our global warming targets  ;D
As if trying to tell us that anything we do, or don't do, will have any effect on what is a natural cycle of warming and cooling which has been occurring for millennia isn't dumb enough,  but then to try and conflate that with Brexit shows a level of patronising dumbness that can only be described as jaw-droppingly dumb  :dan
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on May 02, 2016, 07:33:25 PM
Meanwhile on the domestic front the government propose to eliminating tipping .

Too late !!!   as Dipdodah will testify I took the decision to stop tipping 40 years ago . :)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on May 03, 2016, 03:57:20 PM
Meanwhile on the domestic front the government propose to eliminating tipping .

Too late !!!   as Dipdodah will testify I took the decision to stop tipping 40 years ago . :)

The only tip you ever gave when I was a postman was " do not eat yellow snow " 8)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on May 09, 2016, 11:35:36 PM
Tomorrow there's a  Newsnight Special from Boston concerning the referendum,  so watch out for reporters roaming the streets.  :police:
Interesting that Cameron has widened his argument on the security risk of Brexit to include the outbreak of war.  He can't really take this security argument much further as it's already into looney tunes territory.
What's the odds on desperately dodgy Dave telling us that Brexit will increase the risk of an invasion from outer space next  :dan
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on May 10, 2016, 02:13:40 PM
What surprises me is the lack of any opinion polls.  Anyone got a link to the latest poll?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on May 10, 2016, 02:53:53 PM
No time for opinion polls , after listening to Dodgy Dave yesterday many of us are  busy building concrete bunkers in our back gardens . :-\ ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on May 10, 2016, 04:37:21 PM
Get out your pilots helmet GHM, scramble, scramble, you old Spitfire pilots will soon be needed. ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Fairfax on May 11, 2016, 10:42:51 PM
I'm back, after a cancer operation that went badly wrong and a near death experience. However, I am fit enough to vote out on referendum day. After serious consideration, I stick by every word in my previous post, but I can think of a downside which we must be prepared to face. Some small European importers may not wish to buy our products if the EU impose tariffs against us. In turn, we can retaliate buy imposing tariffs of our own and a short tariff war may occur. Sadly, this may result in the loss of jobs for a small number of our citizens. With a heavy heart for those few, I stand buy my intention to vote out, because I believe that we will quickly regain our sovereign status and become a major exporter on the World stage. My opinion is based on a considerable period of studying facts and seeing the reality of the situation, and ignoring the silly comments made by politicians. For those who still wish to vote to stay, I say you are condemning future generations to subservience to European powers such as Germany and France, unless, as I believe, the EU will collapse in a few years or even months. If this happens, we will be dragged, financially into the same mess as the rest.

Look for the facts behind the rhetoric that is being spouted and don't fall for the garbage about the EU preventing war. Our fathers and grandfathers fought and died in Europe for freedom, not a European Union. It is this very freedom which we are now fighting for when we mark our ballot papers. Out means the sovereignty that they really fought for. Let's get out while we can. The chance may never come again.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on May 12, 2016, 08:55:49 AM
I'm back, after a cancer operation that went badly wrong and a near death experience. However, I am fit enough to vote out on referendum day. After serious consideration, I stick by every word in my previous post, but I can think of a downside which we must be prepared to face. Some small European importers may not wish to buy our products if the EU impose tariffs against us. In turn, we can retaliate buy imposing tariffs of our own and a short tariff war may occur. Sadly, this may result in the loss of jobs for a small number of our citizens. With a heavy heart for those few, I stand buy my intention to vote out, because I believe that we will quickly regain our sovereign status and become a major exporter on the World stage. My opinion is based on a considerable period of studying facts and seeing the reality of the situation, and ignoring the silly comments made by politicians. For those who still wish to vote to stay, I say you are condemning future generations to subservience to European powers such as Germany and France, unless, as I believe, the EU will collapse in a few years or even months. If this happens, we will be dragged, financially into the same mess as the rest.

Look for the facts behind the rhetoric that is being spouted and don't fall for the garbage about the EU preventing war. Our fathers and grandfathers fought and died in Europe for freedom, not a European Union. It is this very freedom which we are now fighting for when we mark our ballot papers. Out means the sovereignty that they really fought for. Let's get out while we can. The chance may never come again.

Well said, I hope you make a quick and full recovery  :)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on May 12, 2016, 09:38:12 AM
Best of luck to Fairfax .   Most of us feel all the propaganda of both parties is lies or guesswork and cannot be trusted , so how do we make a decision ?

Mine is based on two pointers ,  firstly the EU countries desire to keep us in is a good pointer that as many of us anticipate they will take us to the cleaners after a Yes vote , revealing that Dave,s talk of reform is all what Cameron stands for ..... bluster .

As a life long Tory voter the real clincher for me is having seen U-turn after U-turn and failed targets by Cameron and Osbourne it would be foolhardy to follow their advice .

OUT FOR ME .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on May 12, 2016, 11:48:18 AM
We import more than we export to Europe. Any tariffs would be worse for them.
Also do we need your in Europe to import stuff from China?


Well done Fairdax and to DT who has had similar issues.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on May 12, 2016, 12:01:53 PM
Good to see you back Fairfax, excellent post, good luck with the treatment.

I remember my grandfather telling us the story of how he, and his generation, fought for the sovereignty of this country,  and there was never any mention of doing it for Europe. This country was under threat and the removal of the threat entailed the liberation of Europe by defeating Germany - Cameron reinventing history again

Interesting to hear Dodgy Dave apparently drooling over the level of corruption in Nigeria, describing it as fantastically corrupt to Her Majesty.  Strange that we are hosting this anti-corruption conference today when the EU accounts haven't been signed off by the accountants for seventeen years now - maybe Dave is hoping to pick up a few tips from the Nigerian delegation  :dan

Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on May 12, 2016, 12:23:15 PM
Also do we need your in Europe to import stuff from China?

No we don't.
The Chinese visit last year was billed as heralding a new golden era of trade, which was 'vital for our economy '.
What does that imply for the European project?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on May 13, 2016, 10:58:39 AM
The EU have now reinvented one of the fundamental laws of physics with their new restrictions on the use of high power kettles.
The low power kettles take longer to boil and therefore,  according to Newton's law of cooling, will consume more energy to heat the same volume of water.

We will have to build a few more of those lovely wind farms to supply all these new low powered kettles  :dan
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Imp Stalker on May 13, 2016, 12:19:20 PM
That'll be handy.

Wind farms are the future
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on May 13, 2016, 02:33:27 PM
That'll be handy.

Wind farms are the future
no :)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Imp Stalker on May 13, 2016, 03:22:52 PM
prefer having one of those in my back garden than a gas or coal or nuclear plant any day
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on May 13, 2016, 03:58:06 PM
That'll be handy.

Wind farms are the future

I read somewhere that if we had a million of these it would only produce 10% of our electricity.  I will try and find the link.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on May 13, 2016, 05:31:51 PM
prefer having one of those in my back garden than a gas or coal or nuclear plant any day
not many people have hem in their back garden......however if we let these dutch and german companies carry on they'll be everywhere...you may get one in your back garden :)

look at all those just off skeg...not rotating? no worries for the companies they still get their wedge....where does wedge come from...er us, the taxpayer.
these things are being funded to show the government to be "green".
ditto solar panels ....although they are more efficient than turbines.
the renewable companies were/are looking to have a swathe of them from Heckington right up to Humberstone Fitties.
it will be hard not to see one ...particularly as theyre 125m tall!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on May 14, 2016, 06:52:36 AM
Two more coal fired power stations are being decommissioned soon so the energy gap is widening as we try to meet the EU targets.  It will be interesting to see how the grid copes in the winter on dark days when there is no wind and people want to use their new kettles. Heavy industry has already been told to reduce power demand at such times to avoid what they are calling 'brown-outs', which is when you notice your lights go dim for a couple of seconds.  The problem is, if they don't address the intermittency of wind and solar power, and keep removing the back-up, these low-power periods could last for hours rather than seconds, and the power fluctuations can damage computers, smart TVs,  etc  :'(

The good news is that the taxpayer''s wedge has also indirectly helped a non-league club get to the Conference play-offs this year.  FGR are being bankrolled by Dale Vince, the owner of Ecotricity, a company who are benefitting from the renewable energy subsidy and may well be planning to put a few more windmills up near you soon.  As you watch them turn, and are slowly driven crazy by the beat of the blades, you might be comforted by the progress of a big spending non-league club  :dan
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on May 14, 2016, 08:00:17 PM
We are DOOMED :o :o  The IMF has joined the debate.  House prices will crash, interest rates will go through the roof and the pound will plummet.  Vote leave and the fires of hell will envelope the whole country.  The Stay campaign are trying to scare the public into voting in their favour.  The trouble is some of the don't knows will vote stay just because of the fear factor.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on May 16, 2016, 12:09:42 PM
  When is dodgey Dave lying? Now or then?  I have tried to put a link up, but it does not work.  It is a link to Dave addressing the CBI.

He is talking about how well Britain would do if we left the EU.

Seems to have changed his mind ???

Cannot find the link, but this one explains to the don't knows why we should leave the EU  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0pwXLtvt2w
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on May 16, 2016, 09:46:34 PM
Dodgy is lying now, he told the truth in February when he said that this country would flourish outside of the EU...what a difference a couple of months makes in politics  :police: 
I'll post a link below which explains whats going on - probably won't work on here but you never know,  its worth looking for on utube, watch the end bit about the USSR if nothing else  :police:  and the intro by the late great Sir Patrick Moore of course


  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EokwQi15pO0.



It seems to work now  8)


Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on May 18, 2016, 08:02:38 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on May 26, 2016, 10:23:40 AM
Osborne's tampon tax has gone tits-up allegedly  :o
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Tash on May 26, 2016, 05:50:26 PM
Osborne's tampon tax has gone tits-up allegedly  :o

He's putting it in the wrong place then  :)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on May 29, 2016, 08:43:20 PM
I was on holiday last week and was very surprised about he amount of people I spoke to that wanted to remain.

Most were quoting the bumf that is being put out about how we will return to the dark ages if we left.

Obviously they were not living in a small market town with the amenities for 50,000, and a population of ?????? a hell of a lot more.

I did see in one of the papers a spot the difference.  Two pictures of farmers campaigning to remain.  One picture was Surry farmers with a placard and the other was Kent farmers.  Guess what?  They were the same farmers. :o
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 03, 2016, 01:05:49 PM
Reading today that only two nations in the EU are net contributors UK and Germany.  The rest are benefactors.

Is this true?

If so no wonder the rest of Europe want us to remain.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 03, 2016, 05:26:48 PM
Dodgy Dave telling us staying in the EU is the only way to get immigration figures down .
Has no one told him the alarming rate they have escalated in the last 6 years under his watch ?
Where have you gone wrong Dave ?


 
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: The Third Twin on June 03, 2016, 09:48:29 PM
If it's out, will there be a limit of only 3 non English players per team again?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 04, 2016, 08:51:50 AM
If it's out, will there be a limit of only 3 non English players per team again?

Dunno, but I am all for that.  This can only enhance the game at England level.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 04, 2016, 11:42:52 AM
Cameron is guilty of an act of treason under the 1351 Treason Act and the Bill of Rights 1689, among other Acts passed by our sovereign parliament, according to Lord Kilmuir
Time he was fecked off into the tower along with his mate Osborne  :dan
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 04, 2016, 02:13:32 PM
Cameron is guilty of an act of treason under the 1351 Treason Act and the Bill of Rights 1689, among other Acts passed by our sovereign parliament, according to Lord Kilmuir
Time he was fecked off into the tower along with his mate Osborne  :dan

After Dave,s performances on TV the last couple of days Vote Leave will feck him of before June 23 rd if he does,nt get his act together !!

Whatever the outcome of the vote , come June 24th we will be left with two parties in chaos both with a lame duck leader .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 05, 2016, 09:19:33 AM
QUACK QUACK
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Bannovallum Bill on June 05, 2016, 10:37:30 AM
It's out for me. Last chance for the British people to save their nation before the inevitable United States of Europe rules officially with the eradication of our British values and a distortion of history. Can see very dark times ahead for the next generations - but can they see it too?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: deano on June 05, 2016, 10:44:40 AM

 I too will be voting out,but i think the damage (immigration) is already done the british will be a minority when my children are older i fear.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on June 05, 2016, 02:10:40 PM
It's out for me. Last chance for the British people to save their nation before the inevitable United States of Europe rules officially with the eradication of our British values and a distortion of history. Can see very dark times ahead for the next generations - but can they see it too?
Wise words BB
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 05, 2016, 05:43:46 PM
Documents have been leaked which confirm that the NHS will be sold off/privatised when the TTIP deal is finally agreed.
Greenpeace Netherlands revealed these Brussels documents - Dodgy Dave was hoping this would not get out until after the vote.
If we stay in it seems inevitable that eventually this deal will be agreed,  so it is now a straightforward choice between keeping our NHS or staying in the EU  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 05, 2016, 10:41:44 PM
Documents have been leaked which confirm that the NHS will be sold off/privatised when the TTIP deal is finally agreed.
Greenpeace Netherlands revealed these Brussels documents - Dodgy Dave was hoping this would not get out until after the vote.
If we stay in it seems inevitable that eventually this deal will be agreed,  so it is now a straightforward choice between keeping our NHS or staying in the EU  :police:

I think it's a piece of willful self delusion if you consider the EU as the greatest threat to the NHS and the Brexit crowd as some kind of saviours. We're talking of individuals such as Ian Duncan Smith, Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, all of whom have long term form when it come to free market economics and decreasing the role of state. You are right to be concerned about TTIP, but I would have thought that anything the Brexit crowd cook up in its place in negotiations with the Americans, will be far more detrimental to anything state run.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 06, 2016, 08:32:06 AM
Which ever way we look at it, the NHS is in shambles.  Too many health tourists, an ageing population and a shortage of medical staff.

It needs an injection of cash, some of the millions we give away to the EU would help.

Last November I had an ECG at my local doctors, this showed a problem.  I had 24 hour monitoring via the Pilgrim in March.  I got my results back last week and am being referred to Lincoln cardiac dept, with an estimated waiting time of 4 months.  On my working out that is nearly a year before they can even tell me what the problem is.  VOTE OUT.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 06, 2016, 09:46:57 AM
Cameron recently stated  "the NHS is completely protected in the TTIP deal, and to say otherwise is the reddest of red herrings".
Well the leaked Brussels papers prove that Cameron has lied to the British public once again.
These papers make it clear that TTIP presents an existential threat to our NHS.
It would now appear to be a matter of fact that if we vote to remain we will end up in TTIP and then it is just a matter of time before we lose the NHS.
No self-delusion required, just a look at certain papers that dodgy Dave didn't want the British public to see  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on June 06, 2016, 10:43:47 AM
Immigration? Speak to a red squirrel
Trade? We import more than we export....
Security? We are in NATO and Interpol...whether we're in or out of Europe.
Travel?.....have to show passport on leaving or returning to uk ...that won't change.

I was at an event yesterday that finished by singing Land of Hope and Glory.
(Not some right wing EDL nonsense event but a dance showcase!....bit of a Last night of the Proms affair)
Look up the words....
If you like them vote out...
If you want to be without Hope or Glory vote in.
This is FAR more important than a general election.....
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 06, 2016, 11:11:52 AM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 06, 2016, 11:57:21 AM
The Leave campaign have stated that money saved from our weekly EU contribution will be spent on the NHS, it is printed in 3 foot high letters on the side of the battlebus so it would be nigh on impossible to renege on that promise.

Most of the misinformation has been from the Remain side over the economy.  They've teed-up a list of economists to produce forecasts of gloom and doom covering twenty years or more after a Brexit, and yet if you look back it becomes clear that historically these so called experts have been unable to accurately predict anything regarding economics over even a six month period let alone ten to twenty years - just another stitch up by the dave and george media manipulation machine  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 06, 2016, 12:24:44 PM
The Leave campaign have stated that money saved from our weekly EU contribution will be spent on the NHS, it is printed in 3 foot high letters on the side of the battlebus so it would be nigh on impossible to renege on that promise.

Most of the misinformation has been from the Remain side over the economy.  They've teed-up a list of economists to produce forecasts of gloom and doom covering twenty years or more after a Brexit, and yet if you look back it becomes clear that historically these so called experts have been unable to accurately predict anything regarding economics over even a six month period let alone ten to twenty years - just another stitch up by the dave and george media manipulation machine  :police:

Re the Remain camp, I agree, they've made plenty of dubious claims, as someone who's pro remain, Cameron has done more to pursuade me to change my mind and vote out than any of the Out campaigners! People often mistake economics for a science when it is anything but. However, I think you are being incredibly blinkered if you think that remain are the only ones telling porkies. As an example, you quote that they will spend the money saved from EU contributions to reinvest in the NHS. That figure itself is highly dubious and the figure used by Gove, Johnson etc has even been disowned by Farage. I'd say it's nigh on impossible for you to quantify how much we make or lose from our EU contribution because there are many unquantifiable benefits to being in the EU and common market currently.

So both sides are lying and basically voting out is a jump into the unknown. It could be a huge success to exit, or it could be an utter disaster. It could be that it's about the same. My personal feeling is that whatever happens, we are going to need to continue to trade with the EU and therefore will have to continue to adhere to EU regulations. With that in mind, I'd sooner remain and have an opportunity to mould the conditions than to be on the outside. With a seat at the table we retain some control and the opportunity to press for reform the policies we don't like.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 06, 2016, 12:51:31 PM
The truth is we are little more than an onlooker anyway. 

We have not embraced fully the concept of an united Europe.

We are about the only country in the EU where we have to show a passport( I am in agreement with this )

We are not a part of the Euro ( I am in agreement with this )

We are on the outside looking in on an exclusive club.

On most votes we only have the power of veto.

A bit like the Eurovision song contest :D

Let's get out and be done with it, and be in control of our own future.  Even if it is with Dodgey Dave or  Corbyn the red.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Lady GaGa on June 06, 2016, 12:54:48 PM
I am completely with Maxross with on the NHS  but would go further to say the demise began in the Thatcher years. Having been an NHS employee from the early 70's have witnessed many changes including some of the last 6 years before retiring. The increasing pressure to perform efficiently with a continuing raise in expectations from both management and the public whilst increasingly working with less resources is totally demoralising and to some extent demotivating. I personally feel they are all heroes for sticking with it!! I also agree most definitely with the need for an increase in funding and am sure virtually every taxpayer in the Uk would be happy to contribute extra tax to meet the need.
Referring to the US comparison, earlier this year had a couple of Americans staying who needed to avail themselves of our NHS one with a GP visit and the other to our Pilgrim A&E both were more than well satisfied with the care they received, particularly the one who visited A&E, after a thorough examination investigations advice,reassurance and a prescription, which gave him the peace of mind he was able to continue his trip. He was gobsmacked that it was free at source.
With regards to the 3 foot high letters one of the promoters has already admitted in recent days during a TV interview that not all of the money would  go straight to the NHS!!!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 06, 2016, 01:14:04 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 06, 2016, 01:39:50 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 06, 2016, 02:02:49 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 06, 2016, 10:12:42 PM
There is now very little doubt that if we remain in the EU then the NHS as we know it will eventually cease to exist.
Also, if we remain in the EU, with no control over who enters our country, before it ceases to exist in it's present form it will become increasingly under pressure and unable to cope with demand.
The timescale for these two eventualities is impossible to ascertain, but we know that in Germany for example, the millions of migrants that Merkel is intent on letting in  will be given EU passports if they stay,  and will therefore be able to move to any part of the EU that they choose.
The same will apply to the millions of Turkish citizens who Cameron is so keen to let in to the EU despite what he is now saying.  A few months ago he was telling the Turks that he was their greatest ally and was intent on fast-tracking their accession to the EU, now he is assuring the British public that it will be the year 3000 before they join; he will just say whatever suits his agenda at any given time.
The recent migrant deal the EU struck with Turkey is about to go tits up as Erdogan has sacked the man who did the deal and has taken control.  Erdogan doesn't mess about and will be aiming for a far better deal; the EU, in the face of the migrant crisis, will find it difficult to say no to his demands.

So although we don't know exactly when it's going to happen we do know that the pressure on an underfunded NHS will increase if we stay in the EU, and also we know that it will eventually be sold off after TTIP is ratified.

If we vote out then we will immediately retake control of our borders and start restricting immigration numbers to a realistic level.  The pressure on the NHS and other benefits systems will lessen, and additional money will be available to improve these services.  Nobody knows the exact figures,  but we do know that millions of pounds are transferred to the EU every week - this fact has never been disputed,  the debates always end up in petty squabbles over the exact amount, how much we get back as a rebate etc, but these things don't make much difference, the fact is that millions of pounds that now leave our country every week will stay in this country if we vote to leave.

The other thing that we know for sure if we do leave the EU is that we will not have an unelected committee of faceless American and European corporate fat cats selling off our NHS.
If privatisation of the NHS does come up the British public will be in a position to vote against such a move whereas if we stay in we will not.  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Lady GaGa on June 06, 2016, 10:23:10 PM
I'm afraid in or out the NHS will never be safe under the Conservatives! My feeling is either way it is only a matter of time😢.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: The Third Twin on June 06, 2016, 11:28:47 PM
I'm afraid in or out the NHS will never be safe under the Conservatives! My feeling is either way it is only a matter of time😢.
half the problem with the nhs is the appts are taken by foreign nationals, currently legally here, but have never put anything into national ins payments, which is causing a deficit in funds. Add this to the fines the nhs have inflicted on them due to the waiting lists not being given appts in time, and there's no wonder it's in a mess. Easy answer, vote no, reduce the freeloaders and reduce waiting times and let the people who pay the national ins benefit in a more timely fashion....end result....a more stable nhs.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Fairfax on June 07, 2016, 01:27:04 AM
It's not about the economy.
It's not about immigration.
It's not about trade.
It's not about the NHS.
It's not about who is or isn't telling the truth.
It's not about the fact that the European Union is in a state of near collapse that will drag us down with the rest if we stay, when it inevitably implodes.

It's about the treasonable act by those who signed away our sovereignty with the Maastricht Treaty. I do not wish and never have wished to give away my rights, enshrined in law, which still stands on the statute books despite the actions of the traitors, making me subservient to a European super state. A vote for that is a classical example of turkeys voting for Christmas.

It's that simple. I want my freedom as a British Citizen. Nothing, NOTHING else matters.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: flynny69 on June 07, 2016, 08:06:27 AM
I'm afraid in or out the NHS will never be safe under the Conservatives! My feeling is either way it is only a matter of time😢.
half the problem with the nhs is the appts are taken by foreign nationals, currently legally here, but have never put anything into national ins payments, which is causing a deficit in funds. Add this to the fines the nhs have inflicted on them due to the waiting lists not being given appts in time, and there's no wonder it's in a mess. Easy answer, vote no, reduce the freeloaders and reduce waiting times and let the people who pay the national ins benefit in a more timely fashion....end result....a more stable nhs.

Who pays more money in taxes 'foreign nationals' (which must include everyone who is not a UK citizen - French, Spanish, Italian, German, Chinese, Indian etc) or those UK citizens who are in receipt of job seeking benefits?

Of course there are other strains on the NHS; chronic underfunding, too many managers rather than physicians, an increase in demand on resources for obesity and mental health problems etc.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 07, 2016, 08:25:28 AM
Last day to register to vote.

Whether you vote remain or leave, VOTE.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on June 07, 2016, 10:48:45 AM
I'm afraid in or out the NHS will never be safe under the Conservatives! My feeling is either way it is only a matter of time😢.
half the problem with the nhs is the appts are taken by foreign nationals, currently legally here, but have never put anything into national ins payments, which is causing a deficit in funds. Add this to the fines the nhs have inflicted on them due to the waiting lists not being given appts in time, and there's no wonder it's in a mess. Easy answer, vote no, reduce the freeloaders and reduce waiting times and let the people who pay the national ins benefit in a more timely fashion....end result....a more stable nhs.

You do realise, I hope, that the foreign nationals who are 'currently legally here' will also be 'currently legally here' AFTER a Brexit vote? Unless they have committed a criminal offence, they will have the right to remain in the country. Furthermore, if we choose to remain as part of the single market, then freedom of movement will be retained, since it is a fundamental requirement of remaining. The UK will simply not be permitted any exemptions on this.

In any event, even if we choose to ditch the single market and its requirement for free movement as well, the numerous reciprocal travel arrangements made on a piecemeal basis after a Brexit vote will likely mean net migration is reduced, but by absolutely nowhere near the levels stated by the leave campaign. There will be no Australian style points-based system, and it is disingenuous of the leave campaign to suggest that there will be. If you're voting 'out' purely on the immigration issue, prepare to be horribly disappointed.

Here's some more information about the true, unrecoverable costs to the NHS from foreign visitors: https://fullfact.org/health/health-tourists-how-much-do-they-cost-and-who-pays/
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 07, 2016, 11:33:34 AM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 07, 2016, 12:46:15 PM
The word 'migrant' means someone who moves from one country to another, the reasons for this movement can vary but the definition of the word remains the same.

Without going through all this obfuscation and disinformation the facts remain clear :-

Vote in for mass uncontrolled immigration and the selling off of our NHS, and most importantly as Fairfax has said, the complete loss of our sovereignity.

Vote out for control of our borders, for the opportunity to vote out any future government that wants to privatise the NHS, and vote out to avoid losing our hard fought for Sovereignity and to avoid being dictated to by a bunch of unelected, unremoveable, faceless beaurocrats.

Whether anyone votes or not would appear to ultimately be a personal choice IMO, no need for patronising comments on that score   :dan
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on June 07, 2016, 01:23:03 PM
The word 'migrant' means someone who moves from one country to another, the reasons for this movement can vary but the definition of the word remains the same.

Without going through all this obfuscation and disinformation the facts remain clear :-

Vote in for mass uncontrolled immigration and the selling off of our NHS, and most importantly as Fairfax has said, the complete loss of our sovereignity.

Vote out for control of our borders, for the opportunity to vote out any future government that wants to privatise the NHS, and vote out to avoid losing our hard fought for Sovereignity and to avoid being dictated to by a bunch of unelected, unremoveable, faceless beaurocrats.

Whether anyone votes or not would appear to ultimately be a personal choice IMO, no need for patronising comments on that score   :dan

Quick 'fact' check here:-

1 - 'Unelected' - incorrect, we elect the European Parliament every five years.
2 - 'Dictated to' - incorrect, only the *elected* EU Parliament has the power to create EU laws. The EU Commission, which includes representation from the United Kingdom, merely helps enforce them.
3 - 'Control of borders' - see my post above. If we leave the European Union but remain in the European Economic Area, we must also retain the free movement of people, which means there will quite literally be NO change to the current border arrangements. If we opt to leave the common market, then the oft-touted benefits of 'being like Norway' would no longer apply. We might choose to defy the treaty and impose a cap anyway - this will come with consequences.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 07, 2016, 01:25:04 PM
The word 'migrant' means someone who moves from one country to another, the reasons for this movement can vary but the definition of the word remains the same.

Without going through all this obfuscation and disinformation the facts remain clear :-

Vote in for mass uncontrolled immigration and the selling off of our NHS, and most importantly as Fairfax has said, the complete loss of our sovereignity.

Vote out for control of our borders, for the opportunity to vote out any future government that wants to privatise the NHS, and vote out to avoid losing our hard fought for Sovereignity and to avoid being dictated to by a bunch of unelected, unremoveable, faceless beaurocrats.

Whether anyone votes or not would appear to ultimately be a personal choice IMO, no need for patronising comments on that score   :dan

You've pretty much proven what I suspected which is that you are closed minded. You have described reasoned debate as "obfuscation and disinformation". In other words, anything you disagree with is disinformation and anything you agree with is fact. That's fair enough of course, you're entitled to an opinion, but then so are other people so don't be surprised if you get challenged on it when you post it on here or on other public forums. I'm open minded and if you can disprove anything I've posted, feel free to challenge it and if merited, I'll change my opinion accordingly.

Regarding the term "migrant", the full definition is pretty specific according to my dictionary and is as follows "a person who moves from one place to another to find work or better living conditions". (I guess you just quoted the bit you agreed with and ignored the bit you didn't assuming it to be "disinformation"!!) I suppose you could stretch "better living conditions" to avoiding being murdered by ISIS, but I'd consider that a bit of an understatement personally. The definition of Refugee : "a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution or natural disaster". I think those definitions vindicate my original point personally.

Regarding me encouraging people to vote. I'm genuinely sorry if you felt patronised, however, voter apathy is a major issue, with our current government being elected by just 24% of the eligible population. I won't apologise for encouraging people to exercise their democratic right on such an important issue that will have long lasting effects whichever way it goes. Even if an increased turnout means Exit wins, I would still encourage people to vote.

Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: oxo on June 07, 2016, 02:05:18 PM
Whilst the subject is worthy of debate I would like to know the In or out at the football club. There has been little information regarding the retained list which was always available from John Blackwell. Three signings have been made and Jay Rollins and two or three who played bit parts last season. I have purchased my season ticket but the lack of information coming from the club is doing nothing to promote these sales. The Chairman stated the playing budget had been improved and there would be initiatives to raise money for the shortfall on the new stadium funds, What are they? and when will be able to offer our help as supporters?. This season is going to be tough and we need to be hitting the ground running and not repeating the failures of last year. I accept the manager may be well into the process of getting players in and is not in a position to reveal until they have signed on the dotted line, but surely someone at the club should be keeping the fans interested.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: oxo on June 07, 2016, 02:10:06 PM
Whilst the subject is worthy of debate I would like to know the In or out at the football club. There has been little information regarding the retained list which was always available from John Blackwell. Three signings have been made and Jay Rollins and two or three who played bit parts last season. I have purchased my season ticket but the lack of information coming from the club is doing nothing to promote these sales. The Chairman stated the playing budget had been improved and there would be initiatives to raise money for the shortfall on the new stadium funds, What are they? and when will be able to offer our help as supporters?. This season is going to be tough and we need to be hitting the ground running and not repeating the failures of last year. I accept the manager may be well into the process of getting players in and is not in a position to reveal until they have signed on the dotted line, but surely someone at the club should be keeping the fans interested.





Well while I was writing the above the club reveals information I am asking foral though it is not very encouraging.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 07, 2016, 06:03:35 PM
This is quite troubling if true:

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/06/07/vote-leave-caught-playing-dirty-trick-people-registering-vote-images/
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 08, 2016, 03:28:38 PM
Don,t think anyone will rush out to vote on the basis of the Cameron v Farage debate last night ,   weak performance from both .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 08, 2016, 07:19:34 PM
I am going to throw in a conspiracy theory ;)

With the registration website overloading last night, and the deadline to register now tomorrow, who would this hiccup help most?

Leave or remain?  Considering the majority of people struggling to register are younger voters ???
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 09, 2016, 09:54:49 AM
I'm not really sure what you are trying to insinuate. I assume you think it is a pro remain ploy to register more young voters who will inevitably vote in?

If so, I think you are wrong. Firstly I think it's a misconception (and frankly patronising) to think that all young voters will blindly vote remain. I have many young friends who I have debated who would like to leave. Secondly, if your goal is only to win, then you can view this as a conspiracy.  However, if your goal is to make sure that anyone who wants to vote can vote, then surely it can only be seen as a positive? This is a huge decision for the country and I personally think that vote should be as democratic as possible. We don't want any vote questioned afterwards by people saying they couldn't vote.

I don't know if any of you have seen this already, but it is a good balanced piece on the EU by Martin Lewis (money saving expert)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/money/money-saving-expert-martin-lewis-8121255
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 09, 2016, 09:55:00 AM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 09, 2016, 10:08:50 AM
I'm not really sure what you are trying to insinuate. I assume you think it is a pro remain ploy to register more young voters who will inevitably vote in?

If so, I think you are wrong. Firstly I think it's a misconception (and frankly patronising) to think that all young voters will blindly vote remain. I have many young friends who I have debated who would like to leave. Secondly, if your goal is only to win, then you can view this as a conspiracy.  However, if your goal is to make sure that anyone who wants to vote can vote, then surely it can only be seen as a positive? This is a huge decision for the country and I personally think that vote should be as democratic as possible. We don't want any vote questioned afterwards by people saying they couldn't vote.

I don't know if any of you have seen this already, but it is a good balanced piece on the EU by Martin Lewis (money saving expert)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/money/money-saving-expert-martin-lewis-8121255

Fact:  The leave vote is by a big margin made up of middle aged mainly male voters.  The Labour party has been worried about this and last week took action to convert these to vote remain.  So on my working out, if you take these away it leaves the younger voter more likely to vote remain.  So the extension of the deadline was to accommodate the younger voter who had left it to the last minute to register.  Most of these are registering after coming of age.  Only repeating what was on TV news. So it makes sense that the extension helps the remain camp on the above information.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on June 09, 2016, 11:57:38 AM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Fairfax on June 09, 2016, 01:20:07 PM
It will probably help the remain campaign, but why are there so many idiots who chose to play Russian Roulette with their right to vote by playing a game of leaving it late?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 09, 2016, 01:22:27 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 09, 2016, 01:34:30 PM
I'm not really sure what you are trying to insinuate. I assume you think it is a pro remain ploy to register more young voters who will inevitably vote in?

If so, I think you are wrong. Firstly I think it's a misconception (and frankly patronising) to think that all young voters will blindly vote remain. I have many young friends who I have debated who would like to leave. Secondly, if your goal is only to win, then you can view this as a conspiracy.  However, if your goal is to make sure that anyone who wants to vote can vote, then surely it can only be seen as a positive? This is a huge decision for the country and I personally think that vote should be as democratic as possible. We don't want any vote questioned afterwards by people saying they couldn't vote.

I don't know if any of you have seen this already, but it is a good balanced piece on the EU by Martin Lewis (money saving expert)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/money/money-saving-expert-martin-lewis-8121255

Fact:  The leave vote is by a big margin made up of middle aged mainly male voters.  The Labour party has been worried about this and last week took action to convert these to vote remain.  So on my working out, if you take these away it leaves the younger voter more likely to vote remain.  So the extension of the deadline was to accommodate the younger voter who had left it to the last minute to register.  Most of these are registering after coming of age.  Only repeating what was on TV news. So it makes sense that the extension helps the remain camp on the above information.

So if vote leave are ahead in the polls, by a process of extrapolation we can conclude that the vast majority of those registered to vote are middle aged men?  Very democratic!  I'm being facetious of course, but seriously is it more important for you to win or to make sure that the vote is as democratic as possible by getting as many people registered to vote as possible?  Also, the registration period has been extended for everyone, not just the young so any of the hoardes of pro brexit middle aged men in the population can also get themselves registered if they wish.

Regarding Polls, we saw at the last general election how reliable they can be.  My feeling is that there are plenty of young people who are pro brexit and plenty of older people (including middle aged men) who are pro remain.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 09, 2016, 04:20:42 PM
I think it,s well established now that both sides are a pack of liars ,  all we,ve got to do now is decide which mob to vote for .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 09, 2016, 05:25:09 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 09, 2016, 05:27:13 PM
I think it,s well established now that both sides are a pack of liars ,  all we,ve got to do now is decide which mob to vote for .

Which ever way we vote, we will still get shafted.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 09, 2016, 05:41:15 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 09, 2016, 05:48:42 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 09, 2016, 06:00:32 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ernie100 on June 09, 2016, 07:45:22 PM
I have been really interested in reading the debate on here, whether we are being conned or not by one side or the other, I'm still bloody confused!!!!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ferret on June 09, 2016, 08:38:12 PM
If you have any evidence to dispute that, go ahead and post it otherwise I will assume we all agree on that

Using that logic you could assume that we all agree that the Christian's God is a three legged wombat?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 09, 2016, 11:22:40 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 09, 2016, 11:44:41 PM
If you have any evidence to dispute that, go ahead and post it otherwise I will assume we all agree on that

Using that logic you could assume that we all agree that the Christian's God is a three legged wombat?

You absolutely could!  And that's the beauty of the world we live in.  Scientology is a thing, "Jedi" is the worlds fastest growing religion and Steve Evans was once hailed as "god" on these pages and on the York Street terraces!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on June 10, 2016, 09:57:29 AM
"The point is that if we don't take back control of our borders and control the numbers entering our country our services will soon be at breaking point."

As I have already stated, we can't 'take control of our borders' unless we also depart the EEA. Freedom of a movement is requirement of membership of the EEA and there is no way the United Kingdom will be granted an exemption. Everyone on the Leave side seems to have forgotten about it and believe we can shut the door once we've departed the EU. This is absolutely not the case.

So unless Leave want us to also quit the EEA - which would be absolutely catastrophic for our economy - we will have no more control of our borders outside of the EU than we do now.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 10, 2016, 11:21:55 AM
"The point is that if we don't take back control of our borders and control the numbers entering our country our services will soon be at breaking point."

As I have already stated, we can't 'take control of our borders' unless we also depart the EEA. Freedom of a movement is requirement of membership of the EEA and there is no way the United Kingdom will be granted an exemption. Everyone on the Leave side seems to have forgotten about it and believe we can shut the door once we've departed the EU. This is absolutely not the case.

So unless Leave want us to also quit the EEA - which would be absolutely catastrophic for our economy - we will have no more control of our borders outside of the EU than we do now.

I am not disputing what you say.

But I believe Norway are a member of the EEA, but not a member of the EU.

They do not have an open border policy.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on June 10, 2016, 01:10:09 PM
Wrong, I'm afraid!

A key quote from OpenEurope:

"Norway is also outside the EU, but is a member of the European Economic Area (EEA). As such, Norway must apply the same free movement rules as EU member states, but has no vote on the rules."

To be clear on this - simply leaving the EU means we CANNOT impose border restrictions, so if the issue of immigration is the reason you are voting to leave the EU, you need to understand that further disentanglement from Europe will be necessary post-Brexit, which will take many years and may never even happen.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Mickey Nuttells Hair on June 10, 2016, 01:51:13 PM
A really straight forward view of possible 'out' next steps;

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CklmBTiWkAA1Is6.jpg:large)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 10, 2016, 01:57:55 PM
Immigration is one of my concerns, but I have doubts over other issues within the EU.

I worry we pay too much to be a part of this exclusive club.  Germany and the UK are the only net contributors to the EU.

I object to us bailing out countries who have through their own fault got themselves in a mess.

I object to being told what to do by un-elected Eurocrats.

I object to the fact we can not send rapists, murderers and the scum of the earth back to their own country.

I object to the fact that 18% of British laws were overturned or over- ruled by European courts last year alone.

I object to Germany bullying their way.

My father RIP would turn in his grave seeing the influence Germany has now ( he fought at Normandy ).
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Mickey Nuttells Hair on June 10, 2016, 02:12:11 PM
Just to correct the net contributor point, not to dispute your view to leave but it does grate me when I hear things like...

Germany and the UK are the only net contributors to the EU.

Net contributors in 2013 (think this is the last time we have the confirmed numbers) were;
Germany, France, Italy, UK, Netherlands, Sweden, Austria, Denmark and Finland. (Source: http://tinyurl.com/pvbpwxd)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 10, 2016, 02:14:54 PM
Immigration is one of my concerns, but I have doubts over other issues within the EU.

I worry we pay too much to be a part of this exclusive club.  Germany and the UK are the only net contributors to the EU.

I object to us bailing out countries who have through their own fault got themselves in a mess.

I object to being told what to do by un-elected Eurocrats.

I object to the fact we can not send rapists, murderers and the scum of the earth back to their own country.

I object to the fact that 18% of British laws were overturned or over- ruled by European courts last year alone.

I object to Germany bullying their way.

My father RIP would turn in his grave seeing the influence Germany has now ( he fought at Normandy ).

The EU certainly isn't perfect, but the graphic Mickey Nuttells hair has posted is excellent at pointing out the position we will be in should we exit. With regards the cost of membership, we need to stop looking at is as a single unrecoverable cost and more as an investment.  Each year we are investing and we get back plenty of benefits in trade that outweigh the initial cost.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on June 10, 2016, 02:37:25 PM
Just to correct the net contributor point, not to dispute your view to leave but it does grate me when I hear things like...

Germany and the UK are the only net contributors to the EU.

Net contributors in 2013 (think this is the last time we have the confirmed numbers) were;
Germany, France, Italy, UK, Netherlands, Sweden, Austria, Denmark and Finland. (Source: http://tinyurl.com/pvbpwxd)
Aren't Greece, Spain, Ireland technically bankrupt?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Mickey Nuttells Hair on June 10, 2016, 02:56:14 PM
I've absolutely no idea. 
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 10, 2016, 03:38:57 PM
let me try and put figures into context.

People band around figures of X million of debt this and X billion of debt that.

Did you know that one million seconds is approx 12 days and one billion seconds is approx 31 YEARS.

So when Britain were made to pay 1.4 billion to the EU in extra payment the other year, converted to seconds that would take us up to the year 2061. Frightening.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Imp Stalker on June 10, 2016, 04:04:18 PM
That is a long time.

If we look at the UK population of 64 million, and say 50% are tax payers I think that 1.4 million works out at 45p each.

maths is great
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 10, 2016, 04:25:22 PM
That is a long time.

If we look at the UK population of 64 million, and say 50% are tax payers I think that 1.4 million works out at 45p each.

maths is great

Sorry I meant 1.4 billion
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 10, 2016, 10:38:10 PM
"The point is that if we don't take back control of our borders and control the numbers entering our country our services will soon be at breaking point."

As I have already stated, we can't 'take control of our borders' unless we also depart the EEA. Freedom of a movement is requirement of membership of the EEA and there is no way the United Kingdom will be granted an exemption. Everyone on the Leave side seems to have forgotten about it and believe we can shut the door once we've departed the EU. This is absolutely not the case.

So unless Leave want us to also quit the EEA - which would be absolutely catastrophic for our economy - we will have no more control of our borders outside of the EU than we do now.

This is interesting as the United Kingdom doesn't necessarily need an exemption, chapter 4 of the EEA Agreement specifies certain safeguard measures that would allow us to unilaterally suspend FoM for an indefinite period.

The ESM is a product of the EEA Agreement, and the EU's internal market is a product of the Treaty of Rome/Lisbon.
The rules differ. Leaving the EU means leaving the Internal Market with its Common External Tariff (which goes into the EU coffers).

We can avoid Freedom of Movement, or suspend it, while we renegotiate the EEA Agreement or negotiate a bespoke British option.
In the event of a Brexit the Norway model would be of interest because in their case FoM is limited to the private sector, and then only with a job offer. This is in the latest version of the agreement, the original version refers to movement of people rather than workers. Norway's financial contribution is more in the nature of overseas aid rather than a budget contribution.

The global prospects are far more interesting when you consider that the other 168 independent sovereign nations on this planet are all doing better economically than the EU; the EU is ahead of Antarctica, the EU is the slowest growing Economic Bloc in the world.

The vast majority of the population of the world feel no inclination or pressure to join a supranational anti-democratic kleptocracy, especially one doing so badly economically and with such serious problems.  Economists in India or China would not believe that we were even considering remaining.
Last year we were told by Cameron that the Chinese visit heralded a new 'Golden era of trade' which was 'vital for our economy', and he was telling the truth for once. If we remain we will need the money for bail outs when the Eurozone implodes; both Italy and France have major economic problems, Greece will need another cash injection, and the smaller nation states are suffering badly.

The Remain side are constantly talking down our prospects outside of the EU, belittling Englanders. As the fifth largest economy in the World we should be confident and bold enough to make our own trade deals on the global market rather than be continuously held back by the EU. 
The UK could become as successful as Hong Kong if trading globally, and not held back by trade deals that have to be agreed by 27 other member states every time.   



Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on June 10, 2016, 11:25:45 PM
I bow to some long and knowledgeable answers/posts on this thread.
Maybe I you will have answer/opinion on the following?
1) if we vote out will that mean UKIP will disband?
2) will all the people who have set up businesses here have to go back?
3) will Staples have a lot of caravans for sale?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 10, 2016, 11:59:49 PM
"The point is that if we don't take back control of our borders and control the numbers entering our country our services will soon be at breaking point."

As I have already stated, we can't 'take control of our borders' unless we also depart the EEA. Freedom of a movement is requirement of membership of the EEA and there is no way the United Kingdom will be granted an exemption. Everyone on the Leave side seems to have forgotten about it and believe we can shut the door once we've departed the EU. This is absolutely not the case.

So unless Leave want us to also quit the EEA - which would be absolutely catastrophic for our economy - we will have no more control of our borders outside of the EU than we do now.

This is interesting as the United Kingdom doesn't necessarily need an exemption, chapter 4 of the EEA Agreement specifies certain safeguard measures that would allow us to unilaterally suspend FoM for an indefinite period.

The ESM is a product of the EEA Agreement, and the EU's internal market is a product of the Treaty of Rome/Lisbon.
The rules differ. Leaving the EU means leaving the Internal Market with its Common External Tariff (which goes into the EU coffers).

We can avoid Freedom of Movement, or suspend it, while we renegotiate the EEA Agreement or negotiate a bespoke British option.
In the event of a Brexit the Norway model would be of interest because in their case FoM is limited to the private sector, and then only with a job offer. This is in the latest version of the agreement, the original version refers to movement of people rather than workers. Norway's financial contribution is more in the nature of overseas aid rather than a budget contribution.

The global prospects are far more interesting when you consider that the other 168 independent sovereign nations on this planet are all doing better economically than the EU; the EU is ahead of Antarctica, the EU is the slowest growing Economic Bloc in the world.

The vast majority of the population of the world feel no inclination or pressure to join a supranational anti-democratic kleptocracy, especially one doing so badly economically and with such serious problems.  Economists in India or China would not believe that we were even considering remaining.
Last year we were told by Cameron that the Chinese visit heralded a new 'Golden era of trade' which was 'vital for our economy', and he was telling the truth for once. If we remain we will need the money for bail outs when the Eurozone implodes; both Italy and France have major economic problems, Greece will need another cash injection, and the smaller nation states are suffering badly.

The Remain side are constantly talking down our prospects outside of the EU, belittling Englanders. As the fifth largest economy in the World we should be confident and bold enough to make our own trade deals on the global market rather than be continuously held back by the EU. 
The UK could become as successful as Hong Kong if trading globally, and not held back by trade deals that have to be agreed by 27 other member states every time.

This is a very interesting post and a welcome departure from your previous style. I've had a read through the document you have cited and found the relevant articles. Can you precisely detail under which conditions we would be able to suspend freedom of movement? The articles state that any safeguarding measure is very much meant to be short term rather than "indefinite" with reviews conducted st least every 3 months. Can you explain how the indefinite suspension of FoM would be achieved? And finally, the document makes clear that any measure taken that creates an imbalance permits other states to take "proportionate rebalancing measures".  Would that not allow existing states to take action against us?

It's not so much a case of talking down Britain, as pointing out that an exit vote represents a jump into the unknown and with that comes risk. The argument is - do we have more power on our own "free to negotiate without the EU interference" or as a strong player within a large trading block of sovereign nations - Ie collective bargaining power?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 11, 2016, 12:15:05 AM
As an aside that some of you may or may not be interested in, I had a chat to my Grandfather this evening. He's 103 and turns 104 this year. He was one of the last out of Dunkirk. He told me he's going to be voting in. He says that had their been an EU back in 1914 he doesn't think there would have been a WW1 or WW2. He said he felt strongly on this, as many of his friends and family lost their lives fighting for peace. He went on to say that the EU had given the European continent a common goal and solidarity. Interesting to get an opinion from someone who lived through that era, although I'm sure that others had a different opinion just like today.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 11, 2016, 09:16:19 AM
Italy is sitting on a 1.3trillion Euro debt apparently,  more than the debt that triggered the credit crisis, Portugal France and Spain are not too healthy either 

Economically, what Cameron and Osborne are trying to persuade us to do is like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.  We need to take the nearest lifeboat, raise the Union Jack, and start rowing!

The comments by Dyson in the Independent today are very informative regarding trade after a Brexit  8)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 11, 2016, 11:03:23 AM
Italy is sitting on a 1.3trillion Euro debt apparently,  more than the debt that triggered the credit crisis, Portugal France and Spain are not too healthy either 

Economically, what Cameron and Osborne are trying to persuade us to do is like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.  We need to take the nearest lifeboat, raise the Union Jack, and start rowing!

The comments by Dyson in the Independent today are very informative regarding trade after a Brexit  8)

!.3 trillion debt, how many years in seconds is that?  The mind boggles :o :o :o
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 11, 2016, 11:10:54 AM
Italy is sitting on a 1.3trillion Euro debt apparently,  more than the debt that triggered the credit crisis, Portugal France and Spain are not too healthy either 

Economically, what Cameron and Osborne are trying to persuade us to do is like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.  We need to take the nearest lifeboat, raise the Union Jack, and start rowing!

The comments by Dyson in the Independent today are very informative regarding trade after a Brexit  8)

U.K. Debt is currently estimated at 1.64 trillion. One of the big problems seems to me to be the obsession with Austerity. It's a flawed strategy and sucks demand out of the market me. That was the case during the Great Depression and it has been the case for the past 6 years too. The huge rises in inequality brought about by free market economics have also contributed to subdued demand in my opinion too. Mark Blyth and Paul Krugman have both written good books on these subjects.

Mark Blyth made this short simple video which does a great job of putting the whole argument in a nutshell.

https://youtu.be/go2bVGi0ReE
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 11, 2016, 12:19:46 PM
very good.

I am very pleased we are all in it TOGETHER.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on June 11, 2016, 03:16:01 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on June 11, 2016, 03:21:06 PM
Dyson and Joe Bamford say out
Branson and Sugar say in.

All fairly respected business men.
But if they can't agree how are we to make a judgement?
To me it comes down to if you want to be in charge of your own destiny.....
I'll go with vacuum cleaners and jcb
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 13, 2016, 11:24:57 AM
Another good weekend for brexit .     Dodgy Dave busy again with another strategy to entice the stay at homes to rush to the polling stations to vote Stay !!
Sorry Dave trying to scare and bully the OAPs with potential pension cuts will backfire like most your ill conceived plots .   
With your and Geo,s record on U turns it is more likely to be cut if you manage to carry on as PM.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 13, 2016, 12:01:53 PM
As an engineer myself, it's very hard not to respect Mr Dyson for his intellect and business acumen.  However, it's worth remembering just how committed he was to the U.K. economy when he moved production of his vacuum cleaners to the far east in order to save costs and made 800 British workers redundant in the process. It's a well established fact that many of the Brexiters have trumpeted the possibility of removing certain workers protections provided by the EU.  Perhaps that is what is attractive to manufacturers like Dyson and JCB? 

If you leave the UK in the hands of a gang of hard right free market ideologues like those leading the Brexit campaign, then results will be fairly predictable.  They believe we can be more competitive on the world stage by making the workforce "more flexible".  In lay mans terms that means it's easier to exploit you, in terms of wages/work hours/holidays and easier to fire you.  You only need to do some very basic research on the main protagonists of the out campaign to find out their political motivations.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 13, 2016, 12:18:59 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 13, 2016, 12:23:46 PM
very good.

I am very pleased we are all in it TOGETHER.

And I suppose you are blaming the EU for that rather than the Tory government we have had in power throughout the last 6 years?  It is a great act of self delusion if you believe that after 6 years of divesting in vital services, you are surprised when those services then fall apart and are no longer fit for purpose.  And it is an even greater feat of self delusion if you can then blame that on the EU/immigration and believe that the very people who perpetrated these policies are the ones who are now going to save you.  WAKE UP!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 13, 2016, 12:26:10 PM
Another good weekend for brexit .     Dodgy Dave busy again with another strategy to entice the stay at homes to rush to the polling stations to vote Stay !!
Sorry Dave trying to scare and bully the OAPs with potential pension cuts will backfire like most your ill conceived plots .   
With your and Geo,s record on U turns it is more likely to be cut if you manage to carry on as PM.

Absolutely.  If remain are to stand any chance now, then Dave needs to take a back seat.  The only silver lining is that the general population are now beginning to see what we on the left have known all along. 
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on June 13, 2016, 01:54:26 PM
Hi there Max Ross :)
I did say I stand to be corrected.
You have questioned me (fair enough ) but haven't corrected me.
The Staples example is a snapshot really.
They have a largely immigrant based workforce based in their own "village" a win win for them.
We are at present allowing enough people in per year to repopulate a city the size of Newcastle.
Will our infrastructure  accommodate this?
The Quadrant development was being objected to on similar arguments.  500 new homes ...poss got a chance but 1000's? ???
There is a lot of talk of whether Turkey will enter...up to a point they already have.  Weren't they given eu passports in exchange for taking in "refugees"?
I'm not Dr Dolittle but on immigration it's worth speaking to a red squirrel




Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on June 13, 2016, 02:41:22 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 13, 2016, 03:03:33 PM
Hi there Max Ross :)
I did say I stand to be corrected.
You have questioned me (fair enough ) but haven't corrected me.
The Staples example is a snapshot really.
They have a largely immigrant based workforce based in their own "village" a win win for them.
We are at present allowing enough people in per year to repopulate a city the size of Newcastle.
Will our infrastructure  accommodate this?
The Quadrant development was being objected to on similar arguments.  500 new homes ...poss got a chance but 1000's? ???
There is a lot of talk of whether Turkey will enter...up to a point they already have.  Weren't they given eu passports in exchange for taking in "refugees"?
I'm not Dr Dolittle but on immigration it's worth speaking to a red squirrel

Hi there Howmanynames2pick  :)

The burden is not on me to disprove your conjecture, but on you to provide proof to back it up.  Until you can provide some facts to back up the claim it will remain just that, a claim.  Once we've established the facts, then we can debate the rights or wrongs of that particular case.

You do bring up some other interesting points.  "Is our infrastructure strong enough to sustain this?".  No, of course it's not, that's why it makes absolutely no sense at all to have been making huge cuts to public services across the board for the past 6 years.  The state we find ourselves in is more to do with chronic underinvestment by a tory government than it is to do with immigration.  Immigration will without doubt exacerbate that issue but why the free pass for Austerity?  The warnings were loud and clear at the time but they ploughed on regardless.  Many of you here talk about being able to hold our own sovereign government to account for poor decisions, yet many of you seem reluctant to do so.

You can argue the rights and wrongs of immigration but the economic arguments are generally pretty strong.  We live in an a country with an ageing population.  That's a well known fact.  It's also well understood that pensions and care for our elderly is paid for via tax receipts from the working population.  If you have an increasing demographic of elderly people those costs are going to increase and you therefore need to increase the number of tax payers.  One of the quickest and easiest ways to do that is to increase immigration of working aged individuals.  I don't have the figures to hand, but there are plenty of them out there that show that economically at least, immigrants bring in more than they take out.  Socially there is a cost and that can be seen acutely in places like Boston.  Those social divisions are brought into even sharper focus when we have underinvestment in public services.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 13, 2016, 04:01:05 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on June 13, 2016, 04:20:27 PM
Interesting and erudite answers there Maxross..
This is why making a balanced decision is so difficult.
There are things we think we know and some we presume.

The things I believe I know are
We have 3 huge buildings in Brussels (parliament, court and commission)
Some elected some not making rules on our behalf
I voted to go into a common market of 7 or 9 nations.
For the most part we were pretty much on par wealth wise. Now we are subsidising some nations.
We now have nations that are bankrupt....
I did not envisage the leviathan it has become.
I did not foresee entering effectively a Federal State of Europe.
Most of manufacturing has now gone....I am not saying this is all the EU fault. Some lays at misgovernment, mismanagement and inflexible unions.
We pay out more than we get back?
Can that be right?
Also we only get back what they agree to give us!
It's madness.
We all applauded when USSR broke up and now we are being led down a United States of Europe


We must take control of our laws etc.
(I'm self employed and committees and petty rules grind my gears :) )

Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 13, 2016, 04:38:11 PM
Interesting and erudite answers there Maxross..
This is why making a balanced decision is so difficult.
There are things we think we know and some we presume.

The things I believe I know are
We have 3 huge buildings in Brussels (parliament, court and commission)
Some elected some not making rules on our behalf
I voted to go into a common market of 7 or 9 nations.
For the most part we were pretty much on par wealth wise. Now we are subsidising some nations.
We now have nations that are bankrupt....
I did not envisage the leviathan it has become.
I did not foresee entering effectively a Federal State of Europe.
Most of manufacturing has now gone....I am not saying this is all the EU fault. Some lays at misgovernment, mismanagement and inflexible unions.
We pay out more than we get back?
Can that be right?
Also we only get back what they agree to give us!
It's madness.
We all applauded when USSR broke up and now we are being led down a United States of Europe


We must take control of our laws etc.
(I'm self employed and committees and petty rules grind my gears :) )

Absolutely it's a tough decision.  That's why I think we have to make a determined effort to educate ourselves and not simply believe all we are told by Politicians, the Press and chain mail style posts on Facebook.  I'm personally feeling no hostility to anyone on here, I'm enjoying hearing your views and learning.  I think most U.K. citizens are hard working individuals like you and me who just want the best for themselves and their family's.  There is a bewildering amount of information being thrown at people and many simply don't know what to think. 

What we all need to remember though is that there are an awful lot of vested interests out there on both sides who don't necessarily have our best interests at heart.  That's why it's vital to consume our news from a wide variety of sources and try to stick to what we know to be fact.  It becomes much easier to discern what is fact and fiction and who is trying to mislead us when we have a decent understanding of the facts.  That doesn't even just apply to the EU referendum, it's just good practice.

The EU is not perfect, not by a long way and Democracy is it's Achilles heal.  We live in a different world to the one we did 50 years ago though and we have to accept that the world is a smaller place thanks to technology, travel etc and integration and trade between nations is a fact of life.  We cannot simply isolate ourselves and bury our heads in the sand pretending it's not happening.  Does that mean we accept the lack of democracy at the heart of the EU?  Absolutely not, I believe in order to make an integrated Europe a better place we have to stay and fight and mould it into what we want it to be.  I hear a lot about defeatism, but to me its defeatist to say as big a player as the UK cannot force change as part of the EU.  Of course we can. Defeatism for me is if we give up.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 13, 2016, 04:58:11 PM
As mentioned by most voters the advice given by "experts" is contradictory .
Examining what the politicians tell us is easier .
For starters we know  Dave,s "no ifs , no buts, pledge on immigration  is in tatters .
Dave after a recent spell of ignoring the subject , but it back on his agenda in a recent interview .
When mentioning the various benefit cuts to immigrants he described them for what they are ,   PROPOSIALS .
Now the reason some Tory MP,s are shy of backing  Cameron is because they know after 5years  of DWP so called benefit reforms overseen by the government and IDS the system  created is in utter chaos causing hardship to the vulnerable .   They fear that the DWP  would not be fit to deliver further complex changes .

More tellingly many fear these Proposals will not be implemented as we fear Dave,s will be  stitched up by the EU .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on June 13, 2016, 05:00:08 PM
A heated debate without getting heated ;)
Dyson and Joe Bamford say out
Sugar and Branson say in
Half of them are wrong......

The whole idea of the EU is a good one...however it's got out of hand.
One the "big houses" packs up and travels to Strasbourg once a month for a vote...waste of time and money (the Paxo tv show)

As you rightly say vested interests are a major stumbling block.
I've tried to work out the ones with guys mentioned earlier....not plainly evident

Trying to change from within is virtually impossible.
Vested interests and corruption being major stumbling blocks.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on June 13, 2016, 08:35:28 PM
It strikes me that Brexiteers are willfully ignorant to the options that face us following a Leave vote. If we want to control migration - rightly or wrongly probably the number one concern of Leave votes - we will not have anything like access to the single market on the terms we do now. That would be somewhere between very bad and catastrophic for the economy. It'll mean something between tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of jobs being lost. Just look at what has happened to indicators of business confidence and investment in 2016 at the mere possibility of an exit.

Who will it be who loses their jobs? It certainly won't be people like Boris Johnson and Michael Gove - recessions don't hit Westminster. Could that be why they're so carefree about the prospect of exit? Could it also be one of the reasons why pensioners - whose incomes are not linked to economic performance in the way those of working age people are - are more prone to voting for leave?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 13, 2016, 08:36:31 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 13, 2016, 08:47:17 PM
Migration Watch are saying that, if we stay in the EU, immigration to the UK is likely to stay at around 250 000 a year for the next 20 years, not sure if they've included the Turkish contingent that Cameron appears to be working so hard for. 
Obviously there is no empirical evidence to base any of this on, its only Migration Watch after all and they are probably funded by the Brexiteers  :dan
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 13, 2016, 08:56:46 PM
Good to see Her Majesty the Queen enjoying her birthday celebrations yesterday with the good old Union Jack everywhere.
No sign of the blue flag with the gold stars, if there were any there I expect she had them all removed.   :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 13, 2016, 09:30:20 PM
On access to the single market - there are certain safeguards built into the EEA  Agreement which make it clear that, in the event of a Brexit, we can negotiate a bespoke deal for the UK during the two years it takes to withdraw from the EU. There are transitional protocols already in place in the Agreement for FoM (Switzerland and Liechtenstein), and there is no reason why the UK cannot negotiate its own transitional protocols invoking some of the existing safeguards.
The EU countries are not just going to stop trading with us on the 24th if we vote for a Brexit.  They are already trading with many countries outside of the EEA and we will join that list.
The balance of trade with the EU is in our favour to the tune of around 60 billion, so any tariffs that might apply will not adversely affect trade. According to some economists we would introduce similar tariffs on EU imports to this country, trade being a two way deal  8)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on June 13, 2016, 09:52:45 PM
On access to the single market - there are certain safeguards built into the EEA  Agreement which make it clear that, in the event of a Brexit, we can negotiate a bespoke deal for the UK during the two years it takes to withdraw from the EU. There are transitional protocols already in place in the Agreement for FoM (Switzerland and Liechtenstein), and there is no reason why the UK cannot negotiate its own transitional protocols invoking some of the existing safeguards.
The EU countries are not just going to stop trading with us on the 24th if we vote for a Brexit.  They are already trading with many countries outside of the EEA and we will join that list.
The balance of trade with the EU is in our favour to the tune of around 60 billion, so any tariffs that might apply will not adversely affect trade. According to some economists we would introduce similar tariffs on EU imports to this country, trade being a two way deal  8)

But this is simply not the correct way of looking at it. Yes, we import a bit more form the rest of the EU than we export to it - so the absolute figures are roughly in balance. But our GDP is (relatively) small compared to the rest of the EU summed together, ergo this trade is a much higher proportion of - and more important to - our national income than that of the EU.

This is explained here. (http://www.niesr.ac.uk/blog/after-brexit-how-important-would-uk-trade-be-eu#.V18bT7srJpi)

Incidentally, being able to impose tariffs ourselves is not a good thing - it would just make goods more expensive here.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 13, 2016, 11:34:16 PM
Its simply not the way someone who wishes to remain in the EU would look at it, but it is the way it looks if you wish to leave and you read the EEA Agreement.
There are currently 49 separate Protocols covering everything from transitional periods in FoM, safeguard mechanisms, abolition of technical barriers, and the development of cooperation etc...the EEA is open to negotiation, and with the UK being the fifth largest economy in the world we are in a strong position to negotiate.
We import far more than we export, and that further strengthens the UK's position.
Just as the obvious example, if Germany and France stopped selling cars in the UK it would cause serious problems to their economies, so that's not going to happen no matter what Cameron and Osborne would have us believe. 
The EU countries are concerned about a possible Brexit but, if it were to happen, they would be even more concerned about losing the UK market completely.

We need to start trading globally rather than just with the EU.  Cameron stated that the Chinese visit last year heralded a new golden era of trade that was vital for our economy.  If the EU was working so well the Chinese deal wouldn't be quite so 'vital' but the only country with a slower economic growth rate is Antarctica,  the Eurozone is about to implode, and the EU just has no way of dealing with the migrant crisis.

Cameron's attempt to renegotiate our position was a complete farce, all he got was the square root of zero.  The EU doesn't do change, your local MEP will confirm that   :blank:

 

Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on June 14, 2016, 12:07:12 AM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Artemis on June 14, 2016, 09:32:17 AM
So we have just 9 days before we vote to remain part of Germany.

(two world wars &  Germany failed,  this time it's takeover by stealth).

 8) 8)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on June 14, 2016, 10:59:41 AM
How exactly are Germany executing a "takeover by stealth" within the constraints of a democratic EU Parliament (and for all the bluster about 'unelected' bureaucrats, the EU IS democratic)?

If Germany is economically strong, it's because it has done pretty much the polar opposite of us over the last 30 years. And if you think leaving the EU is going suddenly restore British industry to where it was sixty years ago, you're delusional. The Tories despise the working class - always have done, always will - and the very people now urging Brexit are the very people who can't wait to get their hands on what's left and sell it all off, along with the NHS, the BBC and whatever else they can lay their hands on before people realise they've been conned.

If course, they're setting themselves up for an ugly fall, as when Brexit fails to bring about the improvements they're claiming it will, and indeed makes things even worse, there's going to be all kinds of ugly bother - but by then their ideologically-driven violence against the fabric of British public life will have caused irreversible damage.

And Scotland will have left the Union and be back in the EU, meaning we'll have an actual border between England and Scotland.

And migration will still be high, because our economy requires it.

But public spending will have been axed even further as the 'new' Tory government imposes further cuts, so the queues at our local hospitals will be even worse - conveniently setting up the dismantling of a health service the leading Brexit advocates loathe.

Who do we blame then?

I hope we will remain and reform the EU from within. But I am almost resigned to the fact that we are heading for Brexit. It's almost futile trying to convince people to change their mind by now - the damage has been done by successive governments failing to invest properly in areas like Boston hit hardest by increased pressure on services, and also by the dispiriting willingness of pro-EU people to dismiss the concerns of people in places like Boston as the bigoted patter of small-town racists.

What a mess.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 14, 2016, 11:26:17 AM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on June 15, 2016, 03:02:49 AM
Not seen any JCB's in Wyberton yet .....
Seeing more and more Beeswax  though across the county
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 15, 2016, 10:50:59 AM
The pressure on the Remain campaign is showing, as they crank up Project Fear to new levels of scaremongering, Juncker gets drunker, and George Osborne is resorting to finger-in-the-air, think-of-a-number tactics and threatening us with an emergency budget if we vote to leave  :o
Sorry George, you should have got that one in earlier,  nobody believes anything they hear when they see that your lips are moving now   :dan
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 15, 2016, 11:08:22 AM
Rolls Royce have joined in with the Fear Project today, saying that the threat of a Brexit is making them consider relocating their new production facility elsewhere.
They forget to mention that the company is already struggling and has been for several years,  with 5 profit warnings in the last 2 years - its convenient to blame it all on Brexit though and not the EU trade restrictions and regulations that hold existing businesses back on the Global market and seriously restrict start-up companies  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 15, 2016, 12:21:02 PM
Just an aside to in out debate.

Do you think the trouble in the Euros and anti English feeling will work in leaves favour?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 15, 2016, 12:29:50 PM
Just an aside to in out debate.

Do you think the trouble in the Euros and anti English feeling will work in leaves favour?

May win leaves a few vote ,   but at the moment Dave & Osborne still appear to be LEAVES best vote winners .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 15, 2016, 12:43:22 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 15, 2016, 01:02:26 PM
As mentioned by most voters the advice given by "experts" is contradictory .
Examining what the politicians tell us is easier .
For starters we know  Dave,s "no ifs , no buts, pledge on immigration  is in tatters .
Dave after a recent spell of ignoring the subject , but it back on his agenda in a recent interview .
When mentioning the various benefit cuts to immigrants he described them for what they are ,   PROPOSIALS .
Now the reason some Tory MP,s are shy of backing  Cameron is because they know after 5years  of DWP so called benefit reforms overseen by the government and IDS the system  created is in utter chaos causing hardship to the vulnerable .   They fear that the DWP  would not be fit to deliver further complex changes .

More tellingly many fear these Proposals will not be implemented as we fear Dave,s will be  stitched up by the EU .

Firstly, if an expert is offering "advice" run a mile, he's probably a snake oil salesman!  What you are interested in is information, a good expert will provide you with accurate information and let you make your own mind up. Most of the information provided by experts that is out there isn't all that contradictory at all, most strongly supports "in".  Don't take my word for it though, go out and have a look for yourself.

If you are going to politicians for information you are going to, for want of a better term, have your pants pulled down.  These guys are experts in twisting information to suit their agenda.  I usually follow the news bulletins, analysis shows like Newsnight and debates like Question Time fairly closely.  However, I have avoided all like the plague in recent weeks because frankly, they are all full of s***.  I haven't watched a single debate and I don't intend to either.

I'm not saying you shouldn't pay attention to them at all, some of it can be quite interesting.  What we are seeing in this debate at the moment is a split between two groups of elites.  Looking at who has come out on each side of the debate is quite interesting.  One thing that should become quickly obvious is that "out" is very much dominated by the ideological right wing.  You can see that from the politicians involved and you can see that from the newspapers which are backing them.  If you are voting out to reduce immigration, stop the NHS being privatised, gain greater democracy, reduce the power of big corporations etc then you are going to find yourself sorely disappointed after Brexit, as all these policies are very much consistent with free market economics   
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 15, 2016, 01:11:37 PM
One question which an answer from the in or outers would be welcome .

With the EU overwhelmingly seeming desperate for us to stay in,  what was the hapless Cameron doing coming away with such a P*ss poor  deal ?


Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 15, 2016, 01:20:11 PM
One question which an answer from the in or outers would be welcome .

With the EU overwhelmingly seeming desperate for us to stay in,  what was the hapless Cameron doing coming away with such a P*ss poor  deal ?

I totally agree.  It's essentially down to the fact, in my opinion, that Cameron is one of the most incompetent prime ministers we've had in living memory.  He went out to renegotiate for a deal to appease his back benchers, rather than improve the EU or the U.K.'s position within it.  He didn't even succeed in what he set out to do.  Essentially he played a weak hand incredibly poorly.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 15, 2016, 01:29:54 PM
One question which an answer from the in or outers would be welcome .

With the EU overwhelmingly seeming desperate for us to stay in,  what was the hapless Cameron doing coming away with such a P*ss poor  deal ?

I totally agree.  It's essentially down to the fact, in my opinion, that Cameron is one of the most incompetent prime ministers we've had in living memory.  He went out to renegotiate for a deal to appease his back benchers, rather than improve the EU or the U.K.'s position within it.  He didn't even succeed in what he set out to do.  Essentially he played a weak hand incredibly poorly.

 I totally agree with your response ,  many remain votes will be lost because many genuinely  fears that a remain vote will see Cameron (and us) taken to the cleaners .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 15, 2016, 01:42:35 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on June 15, 2016, 01:43:27 PM
One question which an answer from the in or outers would be welcome .

With the EU overwhelmingly seeming desperate for us to stay in,  what was the hapless Cameron doing coming away with such a P*ss poor  deal ?

I totally agree.  It's essentially down to the fact, in my opinion, that Cameron is one of the most incompetent prime ministers we've had in living memory.  He went out to renegotiate for a deal to appease his back benchers, rather than improve the EU or the U.K.'s position within it.  He didn't even succeed in what he set out to do.  Essentially he played a weak hand incredibly poorly.

Agreed. I also think on top of this that he felt relatively complacent and had no idea how much of an appetite there was in the rest of the country for Brexit (and however much I wish to remain, it's certainly been an eye-opener seeing just how many people have been readily persuaded by the leave arguments). So he probably didn't realise just how important that re-negotiation actually was, and therefore didn't fight for the best deal. Certainly, even remainers were disappointed by it.

My guess is now that Cameron is bitterly regretting even holding this referendum in the first place. It is highly unlikely he will remain as PM should the vote go against him, and the fall-out is going to be enormous. There's certainly a whiff of defeatism around the remain camp now.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 15, 2016, 01:51:13 PM
Seen the "highlights" of todays PMQs , whatever the outcome on June 23rd ,

GOD HELP US .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 15, 2016, 01:55:45 PM
One question which an answer from the in or outers would be welcome .

With the EU overwhelmingly seeming desperate for us to stay in,  what was the hapless Cameron doing coming away with such a P*ss poor  deal ?

I totally agree.  It's essentially down to the fact, in my opinion, that Cameron is one of the most incompetent prime ministers we've had in living memory.  He went out to renegotiate for a deal to appease his back benchers, rather than improve the EU or the U.K.'s position within it.  He didn't even succeed in what he set out to do.  Essentially he played a weak hand incredibly poorly.

 I totally agree with your response ,  many remain votes will be lost because many genuinely  fears that a remain vote will see Cameron (and us) taken to the cleaners .

It's a strange paradox though, that if you say that a country like the U.K. will be worse off trying to negotiate it's own deals in the world you are accused of "talking down Great Britain".  Whereas if you suggest that Britain, as one of the EU's big three should be able to action change from within people say "nobody listens to us".  We have a lot more power within Europe than we think and if by some miracle the country votes remain, we should start using to it make positive reform within the EU.  I'm sick of seeing the whole debate and policy dictated by the squabbles of the Tory party.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 15, 2016, 02:18:23 PM
One question which an answer from the in or outers would be welcome .

With the EU overwhelmingly seeming desperate for us to stay in,  what was the hapless Cameron doing coming away with such a P*ss poor  deal ?

I totally agree.  It's essentially down to the fact, in my opinion, that Cameron is one of the most incompetent prime ministers we've had in living memory.  He went out to renegotiate for a deal to appease his back benchers, rather than improve the EU or the U.K.'s position within it.  He didn't even succeed in what he set out to do.  Essentially he played a weak hand incredibly poorly.

Agreed. I also think on top of this that he felt relatively complacent and had no idea how much of an appetite there was in the rest of the country for Brexit (and however much I wish to remain, it's certainly been an eye-opener seeing just how many people have been readily persuaded by the leave arguments). So he probably didn't realise just how important that re-negotiation actually was, and therefore didn't fight for the best deal. Certainly, even remainers were disappointed by it.

My guess is now that Cameron is bitterly regretting even holding this referendum in the first place. It is highly unlikely he will remain as PM should the vote go against him, and the fall-out is going to be enormous. There's certainly a whiff of defeatism around the remain camp now.

Yeah I totally agree.  I think he saw the referendum as something he could comfortably win and so put it in their manifesto as a tactical attempt to win over a few of the UKIPers.  Clearly it's spectacularly backfired in his face as the signs are pretty ominous now for remain.  I can't see how he can carry on as PM if Remain win either though, his leadership has been badly compromised by the campaign. 

It's interesting as I did hear the other day that the Tory Remain insiders had said that the big lesson the leadership had learned during the Scottish In/Out campaign was that project fear worked.  I thought that was a strange reading of the situation since it was a much closer result than anticipated and that the Scot's voters brutally punished Labour for being involved at the GE. Personally I think it's fairly clear that project fear was counter productive in Scotland and has been counter productive in the EU Referendum.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Mickey Nuttells Hair on June 15, 2016, 03:42:48 PM
Very much along the lines of the 'don't believe a word of it' is this from Boris - whichever way the wind blows!
https://t.co/s08o9nTl8s

In short he is out for his own personal gain (shot at being PM) so the guy is a complete bandwagon jumper.  With Gove just in behind to pick up the scraps.

I absolutely detest how politicians and business leaders alike are playing so fast and loose with the economy and the faith voters have in democracy to either climb the greasy pole or get headlines.  Sadly not surprised by it though.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 15, 2016, 04:52:49 PM
One question which an answer from the in or outers would be welcome .

With the EU overwhelmingly seeming desperate for us to stay in,  what was the hapless Cameron doing coming away with such a P*ss poor  deal ?

I totally agree.  It's essentially down to the fact, in my opinion, that Cameron is one of the most incompetent prime ministers we've had in living memory.  He went out to renegotiate for a deal to appease his back benchers, rather than improve the EU or the U.K.'s position within it.  He didn't even succeed in what he set out to do.  Essentially he played a weak hand incredibly poorly.

Agreed. I also think on top of this that he felt relatively complacent and had no idea how much of an appetite there was in the rest of the country for Brexit (and however much I wish to remain, it's certainly been an eye-opener seeing just how many people have been readily persuaded by the leave arguments). So he probably didn't realise just how important that re-negotiation actually was, and therefore didn't fight for the best deal. Certainly, even remainers were disappointed by it.

My guess is now that Cameron is bitterly regretting even holding this referendum in the first place. It is highly unlikely he will remain as PM should the vote go against him, and the fall-out is going to be enormous. There's certainly a whiff of defeatism around the remain camp now.

Yeah I totally agree.  I think he saw the referendum as something he could comfortably win and so put it in their manifesto as a tactical attempt to win over a few of the UKIPers.  Clearly it's spectacularly backfired in his face as the signs are pretty ominous now for remain.  I can't see how he can carry on as PM if Remain win either though, his leadership has been badly compromised by the campaign. 

It's interesting as I did hear the other day that the Tory Remain insiders had said that the big lesson the leadership had learned during the Scottish In/Out campaign was that project fear worked.  I thought that was a strange reading of the situation since it was a much closer result than anticipated and that the Scot's voters brutally punished Labour for being involved at the GE. Personally I think it's fairly clear that project fear was counter productive in Scotland and has been counter productive in the EU Referendum.

On the day the referendum was announced  I think a vote would have been 60/40 to remain , by sheer arrogance and total incompetence Cameron is on the brink of turning this into a leave verdict .   The probable factor to get the final swing in voting is that many will use it as a anti Cameron vote .

O k ,apart from his scare tactics , we,ve heard from Cameron and fellow  politicians , journalist etc warning against entering into the unknown (exit EU ).

Just for hope and comfort I offer this thought ......
Politicians and academics offer little but words
What has  but the GREAT  in Great Britain is  those businessmen, explorers ,scientists ,medics etc who have had  the bottle and stepped into the unknown .        They will do it again .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 15, 2016, 09:12:23 PM
Quote from: green hats mate link=topic=6248.msg87523#msg87523

On the day the referendum was announced  I think a vote would have been 60/40 to remain , by sheer arrogance and total incompetence Cameron is on the brink of turning this into a leave verdict .   The probable factor to get the final swing in voting is that many will use it as a anti Cameron vote .

O k ,apart from his scare tactics , we,ve heard from Cameron and fellow  politicians , journalist etc warning against entering into the unknown (exit EU ).

Just for hope and comfort I offer this thought ......
Politicians and academics offer little but words
What has  but the GREAT  in Great Britain is  those businessmen, explorers ,scientists ,medics etc who have had  the bottle and stepped into the unknown .        They will do it again .

I think you're spot on with your 60/40 assessment at the start of all this GHM...I never imagined that we could ever get out of the EU, I still think it's unlikely...someone once said ' If your vote could change anything then they wouldn't have given it to you '. I've always had the feeling that this whole process was just an elaborate charade,  a bit like Cameron's attempt to renegotiate our EU deal,  but it's all run away from the controlling powers and there now appears to be a chance of winning the vote, but its still too close to call.
Another possibile outcome of course is that the country votes for a Brexit,  the government puts forward legislation to leave the EU, and Parliament votes it down thus precipitating a general election in which only UKIP campaign for Brexit.  Ipso facto this country stays in the EU despite the wishes of the population, and becomes the laughing stock of the world.
A horrible possibility,  and one that would cause large scale civil unrest,  but this is an eventuality that is already being discussed.
The in/out referendum could go down in history as the in/in referendum  :dan



Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 15, 2016, 10:10:52 PM
Thanks to Cameron and Osbourne come June 23rd whatever the outcome of the vote we will be established as the laughing stock of the world .

Anyone known what happens if the vote is only a few thousand (very small in referendum terms ) majority , can a recount be demanded ?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on June 15, 2016, 11:49:06 PM
Very much along the lines of the 'don't believe a word of it' is this from Boris - whichever way the wind blows!
https://t.co/s08o9nTl8s

In short he is out for his own personal gain (shot at being PM) so the guy is a complete bandwagon jumper.  With Gove just in behind to pick up the scraps.

I absolutely detest how politicians and business leaders alike are playing so fast and loose with the economy and the faith voters have in democracy to either climb the greasy pole or get headlines.  Sadly not surprised by it though.

As a general rule, I think the 'all politicians are self-interested careerists' and 'Tories hate everyone but the rich' lines are grossly exaggerated.

But Boris really is a special case - a Category A charlatan.  At least Gove and Farage are just good old fashioned fruitloops.

Will be interesting to see just how permanent any leave vote is. If leave get 51% and the economy promptly goes into free fall, I imagine the polls would quickly swing 60/40 back to remain. There's then a question of if a second referendum is appropriate. I guess if Cameron has been replaced by Boris by then there is no prospect of that actually being held.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on June 16, 2016, 09:25:05 AM

As a general rule, I think the 'all politicians are self-interested careerists' and 'Tories hate everyone but the rich' lines are grossly exaggerated.


I would say this is spot on for the 'acceptable' face of the Tory party, the Ken Clarkes and such like, who occupy the right side of the centre. There ARE some decent Tories and the mainstream of the party tends to reflect this, although will never be popular with anyone left of centre.

However we all know that party frequently has internal battles to keep the truly nasty backbenchers - the horrible oiks who really do despise the weak and poor - under control, with varying degrees of success, and moderate leaders are forever having to make deals and compromises with these people.

The problem Cameron and Osborne have now is that they've unleashed a monster and empowered the more unpalatable sections of their own party, who could well be running the country in the event of Brexit.

We'll be getting all misty eyed with fond nostalgia for Nick Clegg and the coalition then.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Mickey Nuttells Hair on June 16, 2016, 09:27:29 AM
At least Gove and Farage are just good old fashioned fruitloops.

Made me chuckle  :)

Then I realised they actually are being taken seriously by a significant amount of the population.  :(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 16, 2016, 10:13:37 AM
Both parties in utter chaos  after June 23rd ,   the country will be like a rudderless ship whatever the outcome of the vote .

Historically both parties address the situation like this in a different manner .
Labour have a good old fashioned public punch-up .
Tories as referred to by  Pete B in above post are great exponents of hypocrisy and make unsustainable agreements .     Many tory MP s will from June 23rd spend much time looking over their shoulder .  Older one,s on here  will recall Sir Richard Body a former Boston & Skegness MP and the infamous Bastards of the party .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on June 16, 2016, 10:47:37 AM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 16, 2016, 07:36:45 PM
I'm sure by now many of you will have heard about the senseless murder of Labour MP Jo Cox today. I think whatever party or opinions you hold, we can all agree that this a complete tragedy for her young family. RIP.

Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 16, 2016, 07:47:58 PM
I'm sure by now many of you will have heard about the senseless murder of Labour MP Jo Cox today. I think whatever party or opinions you hold, we can all agree that this a complete tragedy for her young family. RIP.

This afternoon I removed a post which I submitted this morning , with this tragic murder is became inappropriate .

So sad and thoughts are with the children and husband .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on June 16, 2016, 07:53:42 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 16, 2016, 08:11:13 PM
I'm sure by now many of you will have heard about the senseless murder of Labour MP Jo Cox today. I think whatever party or opinions you hold, we can all agree that this a complete tragedy for her young family. RIP.

This afternoon I removed a post which I submitted this morning , with this tragic murder is became inappropriate .

So sad and thoughts are with the children and husband .



Totally understandable. I've still got plenty to say on the issue but will be taking a day or too off after this.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 16, 2016, 10:58:48 PM
I'm sure by now many of you will have heard about the senseless murder of Labour MP Jo Cox today. I think whatever party or opinions you hold, we can all agree that this a complete tragedy for her young family. RIP.

RIP Jo Cox
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 17, 2016, 11:19:38 AM
Yes r.i.p very sad
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Fairfax on June 17, 2016, 02:29:12 PM
Bless her pure and virtuous soul. Dear Lord and Father of mankind forgive our foolish ways.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on June 18, 2016, 10:51:21 PM
An article from The Spectator
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3647690/Set-Britain-free-Unsure-vote-brilliantly-incisive-verdict-Spectator-nation-s-foremost-political-magazine-help.html
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 19, 2016, 01:04:15 AM
An article from The Spectator
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3647690/Set-Britain-free-Unsure-vote-brilliantly-incisive-verdict-Spectator-nation-s-foremost-political-magazine-help.html

A video from Prodfesor Michael Dougan, he addresses most of the points in the spectator article.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y&feature=share
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 19, 2016, 10:19:40 AM
Wow, I didn't expect this. Here is the Editorial from the Mail on Sunday.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3648681/THE-MAIL-SUNDAY-COMMENT-Vote-Remain-safer-freer-prosperous-yes-GREATER-Britain.html
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 19, 2016, 10:59:44 AM
Wow, I didn't expect this. Here is the Editorial from the Mail on Sunday.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3648681/THE-MAIL-SUNDAY-COMMENT-Vote-Remain-safer-freer-prosperous-yes-GREATER-Britain.html

The Daily Mail are running a double campaign .  Weekday = leave.  Sunday = remain.  Kinda confusing.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 19, 2016, 11:12:15 AM
Wow, I didn't expect this. Here is the Editorial from the Mail on Sunday.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3648681/THE-MAIL-SUNDAY-COMMENT-Vote-Remain-safer-freer-prosperous-yes-GREATER-Britain.html

The Daily Mail are running a double campaign .  Weekday = leave.  Sunday = remain.  Kinda confusing.

Not really ,  Mrs Gove is a regular contributed to the Daily Mail , reputedly on a lucrative return .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 19, 2016, 11:19:03 AM
Wow, I didn't expect this. Here is the Editorial from the Mail on Sunday.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3648681/THE-MAIL-SUNDAY-COMMENT-Vote-Remain-safer-freer-prosperous-yes-GREATER-Britain.html

 "Cameron deserves credit for toughening up the rules of in-work benefits for migrants "
 Really ?    Can anyone give agreed details of what these rules are and what date they will be implemented ?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 19, 2016, 11:38:01 AM
                                     Campaigning .

                                Where are they now ?


          1          Nic Glegg and the Libs

          2          Teressa May ,   I mean the lady herself not her exposed breasts and fancy
                      footwear .
           3          Alan Johnson MP .


None appear to have made the expected major contributions  to the campaign .
Any Ideas why  ?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on June 19, 2016, 05:47:33 PM
I'll look at video tomorrow MaxRoss.
A lad I know posed the question " if we were out of eu and the referendum was to go IN. Would you vote to go in"?
Interesting question I thought.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Mickey Nuttells Hair on June 19, 2016, 08:29:39 PM
I'll look at video tomorrow MaxRoss.
A lad I know posed the question " if we were out of eu and the referendum was to go IN. Would you vote to go in"?
Interesting question I thought.

Interesting but if that were the case we would be in a completely different position to now.

Either we would be sitting pretty in a Brexit wonderland, so let's stay OUT.  Or we would be scratching around trying to get on while everyone else was doing great, get us IN.

Martin Lewis made a good summary for me, if you think things are ok or you don't want to risk things getting worse then vote Remain.  If you think things are bad and are willing to RISK them getting EVEN worse OR that they MIGHT get better then vote Out.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 19, 2016, 09:23:23 PM
I see remain are 3 points ahead.  Mail on Sunday have come up with the reason of the turn round due to the murder of poor Jo Cox.( Not my view )

Surely the British public are not that fickle as to put the future of generations down to a sympathy vote.

Or maybe it has highlighted her views on the reason to remain in.

Either way that is a 7 point turn round on the previous opinion poll.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 20, 2016, 02:34:34 PM
Farage condemns remain for cashing in on Jo cox's death.

Switzerland withdraw application to join EU.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 21, 2016, 03:00:52 PM
Big debate at Wembley arena tonight, live on TV.

This will clear a few things up if you are undecided ;D
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on June 21, 2016, 04:45:09 PM
The bookies have Remain to win easily at the moment. I suspect it'll be tighter than their odds suggest but at the last election they were more reliable than the pollsters, so I would expect the Remain lot to go charging in all guns blazing at Wembley tonight, full of confidence. Could get feisty.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 21, 2016, 05:14:25 PM
The bookies have Remain to win easily at the moment. I suspect it'll be tighter than their odds suggest but at the last election they were more reliable than the pollsters, so I would expect the Remain lot to go charging in all guns blazing at Wembley tonight, full of confidence. Could get feisty.

One thing we can be sure of is, Claims and counter claims.  Spin working overtime.  Oh and the odd lie chucked in by both sides for good measure. >:(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 21, 2016, 07:55:33 PM
The bookies have Remain to win easily at the moment. I suspect it'll be tighter than their odds suggest but at the last election they were more reliable than the pollsters, so I would expect the Remain lot to go charging in all guns blazing at Wembley tonight, full of confidence. Could get feisty.

One thing we can be sure of is, Claims and counter claims.  Spin working overtime.  Oh and the odd lie chucked in by both sides for good measure. >:(


The only thing I,m sure of as a former Tory voter is that Cameron,s  integrity has took a battering and he is no longer fit to run the party .  A stay vote would make it more imperative that he is ditched as the EU diplomats will now see him for what he is , all wind , bluster and lies .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Cavalier on June 21, 2016, 07:58:26 PM
If you watch the whole of this video you may have a better understanding of what's involved in the decision.

https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/06/16/watch-dishonesty-industrial-scale-eu-law-expert-analyses-referendum-debate/
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 22, 2016, 02:23:52 PM
A cracking debate last night.

I thought leave edged it, just.  Maybe I'm bias.

Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on June 22, 2016, 06:14:12 PM
my final summary :)
1)we give them money and they give us some back to spend on things they tell us.
TROUBLE IS...I DON'T KNOW WHO "THEY" ARE ....
2) i voted "IN" for a 9 (i recall) member free trade agreement.........no mention of Parliaments, Commissions, Courts ..27 members
3) Spain/Ireland/Greece/Italy technically bankrupt..will the answer be to simply print more money?
4) what have Bulgaria/Romania/Hungary brought to the party?
5) will Turkey/Macedonia/Albania bring anything?
6) re the above...its been a great opportunity for big businesses to move their operations to these low income nations
7) why has Switzerland opted not to join the party?
8 ) there is talk of an EU army..........what!!!!!!!!!(The Times)
9) broadsheets saying all countries must be in Euro by 2020.......see 3)
10) what more have these faceless bureaucrats got lined up??
11) we import more than we export..why would they hit us with tariffs?
12) Europe is a 500m market place...the rest of the Globe is much bigger
13) name an MEP? (Other than Farage..whom i hope smug face will soon be off our tv's)
14) Britain is Great...get behind it!...its inventiveness, drive etc has seen us as a global player for centuries..do we want to be another state in a Federal Europe?
15) we are more than one star on another persons flag.......
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: qwerty on June 22, 2016, 07:21:40 PM
The bookies have Remain to win easily at the moment. I suspect it'll be tighter than their odds suggest but at the last election they were more reliable than the pollsters.......

This article might explain why I think the bookies have it wrong for once, I expect a overwhelming out vote on a turnout of over 70%

http://www.zerohedge.com/print/564348
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Kearsley Pilgrim on June 22, 2016, 07:57:37 PM
As you may know the overall IN or OUT result is being declared at Manchester Town Hall on Friday. I work there, and there's a lot of disruption because of it. Security has been stepped up and tomorrow (Thursday) we have to vacate the building by 4-00pm. Police are then searching through all the offices and everything has to be left unlocked. Come Friday no staff are allowed to work in the Town Hall and we're all having to go to other council offices in the city centre. Many staff are taking an Annual Leave day and others are working on the count itself. Thank goodness we work a flexi-time system, coz the city has become markedly busier today, so I'm sure its going to be even busier over the next couple of days. My journey in took 20 minutes longer than usual today, so those working a rigid 9am-5pm will probably have to set out much earlier tomorrow and Friday than their used to. Anyhow, hope the result goes the way you favour - which hopefully is the best way for the country.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on June 22, 2016, 08:51:53 PM
I hope you aren't taking any rubbers in (eraser types)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 22, 2016, 09:57:04 PM
my final summary :)
1)we give them money and they give us some back to spend on things they tell us.
TROUBLE IS...I DON'T KNOW WHO "THEY" ARE ....
2) i voted "IN" for a 9 (i recall) member free trade agreement.........no mention of Parliaments, Commissions, Courts ..27 members
3) Spain/Ireland/Greece/Italy technically bankrupt..will the answer be to simply print more money?
4) what have Bulgaria/Romania/Hungary brought to the party?
5) will Turkey/Macedonia/Albania bring anything?
6) re the above...its been a great opportunity for big businesses to move their operations to these low income nations
7) why has Switzerland opted not to join the party?
8 ) there is talk of an EU army..........what!!!!!!!!!(The Times)
9) broadsheets saying all countries must be in Euro by 2020.......see 3)
10) what more have these faceless bureaucrats got lined up??
11) we import more than we export..why would they hit us with tariffs?
12) Europe is a 500m market place...the rest of the Globe is much bigger
13) name an MEP? (Other than Farage..whom i hope smug face will soon be off our tv's)
14) Britain is Great...get behind it!...its inventiveness, drive etc has seen us as a global player for centuries..do we want to be another state in a Federal Europe?
15) we are more than one star on another persons flag.......

Well said that man :bunny :bunny
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 23, 2016, 08:57:51 AM
Today is the day that could determine the future for generations.

After a lot of debate, and valid points put by both sides, it is time to vote.

Remember to VOTE.

If you do not vote, you cannot complain about any policies implemented by either side.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: lonegunman on June 23, 2016, 09:43:43 AM
Done, now sit and wait for the outcome. I'm not certain how close it will be but at least it might shake a few MP's up, and they certainly need that.
There's not one of them that's been on the TV crowing about what will happen that i would trust.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 23, 2016, 10:26:39 AM
So tomorrow we will wake up in either a free democratic globally trading nation, or in an offshore province of a country called Europe...an historic day either way. 
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 23, 2016, 10:49:06 AM
1/8 to remain, 5/1 to leave, with bet365.

I hope the bookies get it very wrong.

They were interviewing yesterday in Banbury, to a man they were voting to remain.  I hope it rains heavy in that area ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ferret on June 23, 2016, 11:10:33 AM
So tomorrow we will wake up in either a free democratic globally trading nation, or in an offshore province of a country called Europe...an historic day either way.

I'd be keen to hear a bit more detail for each section below on how a Remain vote means that we will not be.........

a)   Free

b)   Democratic

c)   Globally trading

d)   A Nation?

 
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 23, 2016, 11:57:29 AM
About the only thing I feel confident to  predict is that Turkey will be in the EU within 3 years .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: miele on June 23, 2016, 12:52:35 PM
my granddad sed wen he was my age he had nothing evan the shoes he walked in were not his' he's allw ays on about the good old days, I think they were the dark age's I cant vote but if I could witch way would i  vote. and when I look at granddad he's better off than he'sever been.   the only good thing about the good old days he says he could buy fish an chips for 9pence. how far back you you go to buy them at that price god nows. as for jobs most are jobs the locals, don't want. as I say I cant vote but I do hope you people that can get it right' cus I don't want to loose my phone or my laptop and I don't want granddad riding about on a pushbike again
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on June 23, 2016, 01:03:10 PM
About the only thing I feel confident to  predict is that Turkey will be in the EU within 3 years .

Eh? You're joking, I assume?

If not, then that was probably the first myth to be debunked during the campaign. Turkey are no closer to joining the European Union now than they were when they first applied in 1987. 1987!!!!!!

And anyone with even a tenuous grasp of the political situation in Turkey knows that they are about as likely to fulfill the criteria for membership in the next three years as I am to marry Beyonce.

And even if they did somehow suddenly turn into a state that could fulfill those obligations, we have a veto.

I can't believe that we are ACTUALLY VOTING TODAY and this stuff is still circulating as fact. I don't know why any the newspapers bother. I don't know why anyone actually bothered.

Unless you are joking, in which case... you got me.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 23, 2016, 01:09:08 PM
About the only thing I feel confident to  predict is that Turkey will be in the EU within 3 years .


I can't believe that we are ACTUALLY VOTING TODAY and this stuff is still circulating as fact. I don't know why any the newspapers bother. I don't know why anyone actually bothered.

Unless you are joking, in which case... you got me.

My thoughts exactly, it's just bizarre.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 23, 2016, 01:13:57 PM
Re TTIP

http://ind.pn/28PotXq
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 23, 2016, 04:18:03 PM
I have voted, done and dusted.  One thing I am sure of, is which ever way it goes, nothing will happen tomorrow, next week or next year.

If by some chance we vote leave, we will find no difference to daily life for the immediate future.

Just speaking to my neighbour, and she said she has voted remain.  When I asked her reasons she said " I am so confused by what was said by both sides, I thought better the devil you know "  Perhaps too much information is a bad thing ???
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: qwerty on June 23, 2016, 07:23:54 PM
I have voted

Reading your posts on here I guess you voted out?

Just speaking to my neighbour, and she said she has voted remain.

You should of spoke to her before voting then you could of both not bothered  :)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: oxo on June 23, 2016, 07:33:22 PM
I have voted

Reading your posts on here I guess you voted out?

Just speaking to my neighbour, and she said she has voted remain.

You should of spoke to her before voting then you could of both not bothered  :)


HAVE!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 23, 2016, 09:03:46 PM
About the only thing I feel confident to  predict is that Turkey will be in the EU within 3 years .

Eh? You're joking, I assume?

If not, then that was probably the first myth to be debunked during the campaign. Turkey are no closer to joining the European Union now than they were when they first applied in 1987. 1987!!!!!!

And anyone with even a tenuous grasp of the political situation in Turkey knows that they are about as likely to fulfill the criteria for membership in the next three years as I am to marry Beyonce.

And even if they did somehow suddenly turn into a state that could fulfill those obligations, we have a veto.

I can't believe that we are ACTUALLY VOTING TODAY and this stuff is still circulating as fact. I don't know why any the newspapers bother. I don't know why anyone actually bothered.

Unless you are joking, in which case... you got me.

Just based on the fact that Dave has assured us it wll not happen for 30 years .
Beware my mad predictions do sometimes come true .

One year before the last election I emailed David Wooding , Political Editor Sun On Sunday after he said on Sky News that  UKIP would not win a seat .   I predicted that they would and also Mark Simmonds would not  represent Boston & Skegness after the election .   He responded by  saying I was talking nonsense but would send me congratulations if I was correct and hoped I would respond in the same manner if he was correct .
I am still waiting for David,s congratulations .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 23, 2016, 09:28:55 PM


If the vote goes in favour of leave we will be free to make our own laws, and take decisions without having to worry about interference from the EU.
We can also set about removing most of the mountain of ridiculous regulations that the EU has inflicted on us,  keeping the good bits of course  :dan

We will be free of the threat of ever closer union with the EU, the inevitable TTIP leading to the loss of our NHS, and we can make trade deals on the global market without being held back by the EU trade deal process.

Anyone who thinks the EU is capable of change needs a chat with their local MEP.
The EU doesn't do change as Cameron might find out if he ever gets to apply his 'emergency brake'; the only braking that will occur is when it breaks off in his hand.
We keep hearing about staying in to fight for change, letting our voice be heard at the negotiating table, staying in the club, blah blah blah, but Juncker has already made it clear that Cameron will not get anything more than his recent 'deal' in which he achieved the cube root of nothing at all.

Accelerated  accession talks for Turkey begin on June 30th.  Its no coincidence that this has been delayed until after our referendum, Commisioner Sefkovic has promised us a "tsunami" of new EU legislation that has been held back deliberatly to avoid a negative effect on our voting.
Erdogan sacked the man who negotiated the refugee deal between Turkey and the EU and he will be playing hard-ball this time when they get around the table.  Visa- free access for everyone to Western Europe. 
Expect the 35 outstanding chapters that Cameron is always banging on about to be reduced to little more than 35 sentences.  Cameron has a team of UK Civil Servants working on fast-tracking Turkish accession and "paving the way to Ankara" as he put it;  theres a couple of paving slabs missing but be in no doubt, the Turk is coming.

Whatever the result this whole process has given us an insight into the personalities of our politicians, not a pretty sight in most cases...probably better leave it there before the thought police arrive and forensically examine this post   :police:  :dan





Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Mickey Nuttells Hair on June 23, 2016, 10:00:16 PM
No forensic examination needed, it's just bollocks.

But hey it's my opinion and I'm allowed it, unless the boo hiss nasty EU bogeymen take it away with their mythical EU army (of Turks) tooled up with ISIS sympathising brown faced baddies! Seen as we are run by them...
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 23, 2016, 11:23:00 PM
It looks like Remain have won so I'm going to get some sleep...at least l won't be tired and disappointed tomorrow morning   :'( ???
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 24, 2016, 02:44:50 AM
2.30 in the morning and I am off to bed.

It looks like all the UK are voting to leave except Scotland and London.

A quick opinion. Just two areas are deciding the outcome with  massive remain votes in these areas with sheer volume of votes.  Good night
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: qwerty on June 24, 2016, 04:58:27 AM
Arise Sir Nigel.....
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 24, 2016, 05:47:09 AM
Well I've just woken after a great nights sleep, and it looks like its going to be a lovely day  8)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on June 24, 2016, 07:05:20 AM
Yes, a lovely day.

The pound is crashing, the Scottish are agitating for a second referendum and Sinn Fein are ALREADY talking about a united Ireland, with all the social and political upheaval that issue could reignite.

A lovely day indeed.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 24, 2016, 07:33:08 AM
The people have spoken, Independence Day is here.
What a great democratic country we live in, and how amazing that the bulldog spirit is still alive and well, and the British public was able to resist everything that project fear threw at them.  8)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Imp Stalker on June 24, 2016, 08:33:49 AM
how's all that new cash for the NHS going lads?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Lee Newell on June 24, 2016, 08:41:52 AM
Just seen that Boston voted 76% leave. Highest in UK.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on June 24, 2016, 08:44:40 AM
$350 billion wiped off the British economy already. And that's just after three hours. The long term devastation is going to be extraordinarily worse.

But remember folks - it was just scaremongering by Project Fear!

Let us now how you get on with building those new hospitals and clinics with the EU fees, won't you?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Fairfax on June 24, 2016, 09:01:25 AM
FREEDOM!!!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Imp Stalker on June 24, 2016, 09:03:14 AM
how's that new unelected leader of the UK we didnt want going?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: qwerty on June 24, 2016, 09:03:22 AM
It's being reported that this is the worst anyone's seen Sterling since the Russia game.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Winging It on June 24, 2016, 09:05:19 AM
$350 billion wiped off the British economy already. And that's just after three hours. The long term devastation is going to be extraordinarily worse.

But remember folks - it was just scaremongering by Project Fear!

Let us now how you get on with building those new hospitals and clinics with the EU fees, won't you?

Ha,ha,ha.... c'mon...show some humble pie !   :bunny :bunny
Billions wiped, or merely just a personal opinion and not fact.  Long term, we shall have some, but not all, of that money we send to the EU....job done.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 24, 2016, 09:13:47 AM
What happened?  I wake up and world war 3 is predicted.

Dodgy Dave resigns.

Tory Mp's are blaming labour for the remain defeat.

The governor of the Bank of England makes Billions available to protect UK's interests.

Stock markets globally crash

We are Dooooooomed I tell you Doooooooomed.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 24, 2016, 09:16:06 AM
It's being reported that this is the worst anyone's seen Sterling since the Russia game.

Never mind that Qwerty, how are gold and silver prices?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: qwerty on June 24, 2016, 10:51:03 AM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on June 24, 2016, 11:39:41 AM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on June 24, 2016, 12:06:24 PM
And, shock horror, and as predicted by everyone who ticked "stay", the SNP have just announced they have begun the legislative process of a second independence referendum for Scotland, in which the Scottish people will emphatically choose to depart the union and remain a part of the EU.

Which, as I said earlier in this very thread, quite apart from being damaging economically, will necessitate an actual land border between Scotland and England and associated passport controls. Think about that for a moment.

Woo! We've got our country back! Well, bits of it anyway.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 24, 2016, 12:14:03 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on June 24, 2016, 12:17:07 PM
28% of laws passed in OUR parliament last year was thrown out by the non elected EU, how can that be democracy?

Er, House of Lords anyone?

When was the last time you voted any of that lot in?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 24, 2016, 12:20:10 PM
And, shock horror, and as predicted by everyone who ticked "stay", the SNP have just announced they have begun the legislative process of a second independence referendum for Scotland, in which the Scottish people will emphatically choose to depart the union and remain a part of the EU.

Which, as I said earlier in this very thread, quite apart from being damaging economically, will necessitate an actual land border between Scotland and England and associated passport controls. Think about that for a moment.

Woo! We've got our country back! Well, bits of it anyway.

Let them go.

I have been to Scotland and have never met a more racist lot ( against the English ).

As I said in an earlier post the only yellow ( remain ) on the map last night was London and Scotland.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 24, 2016, 12:21:45 PM
28% of laws passed in OUR parliament last year was thrown out by the non elected EU, how can that be democracy?

Er, House of Lords anyone?

When was the last time you voted any of that lot in?

True Pete, the sooner they go the better.  I never said what we had was perfect.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Bostonshire on June 24, 2016, 01:31:55 PM
Whatever is and as been said, fact is we are going to be leaving the EU membership behind.

Oh FTSE as just pulled back to around 4% loss Raising its worth by around 55b Since its plung this morning
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 24, 2016, 02:47:02 PM
What happened?  I wake up and world war 3 is predicted.

Dodgy Dave resigns.

Tory Mp's are blaming labour for the remain defeat.

The governor of the Bank of England makes Billions available to protect UK's interests.

Stock markets globally crash

We are Dooooooomed I tell you Doooooooomed.

Victim of your on great campaigning on here  Dip .

Build a look-out tower and concrete bunker .

Not long before battle ships will be sailing down the Welland to anchor at the Port of Fosdyke  :)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 24, 2016, 03:11:29 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 24, 2016, 03:17:24 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ferret on June 24, 2016, 03:22:58 PM
I think the first impact we'll see is a rapid rise in petrol prices as the currency fluctuations take bite :-( 
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 24, 2016, 03:32:44 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 24, 2016, 03:36:42 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 24, 2016, 03:39:24 PM
I think the first impact we'll see is a rapid rise in petrol prices as the currency fluctuations take bite :-(

Prices are a worry, but short term I suspect things will stabilise. It's long term inward investment that worries me. Successive governments have let our manufacturing industry slip significantly. What we do make here is often factories owned by foreign multinationals using us as a gateway to Europe. I can't see us being half as attractive a place to invest in going forwards. Especially once Turkey join up next week.... ::)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 24, 2016, 03:54:18 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 24, 2016, 03:57:17 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 24, 2016, 04:05:11 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 24, 2016, 04:06:18 PM
I think the first impact we'll see is a rapid rise in petrol prices as the currency fluctuations take bite :-(

Get yourself an electric car Ferret ,  or a bike .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: bostonwoody on June 24, 2016, 04:58:19 PM
Well if we don't reach the playoffs next year we'll know what the cause is
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Bostonshire on June 24, 2016, 06:17:25 PM
Well the GBP crashed althou later stabilise at the lower end, Some would say the market crashed but we did better than any other EU market today in what is been described as a remarkable turn around of the UK market begining the day with a crash of 8.7% to finish at only 2.82% fall compared to other EU markets which all fell between 6% and 13%
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Winging It on June 24, 2016, 07:46:46 PM
And, shock horror, and as predicted by everyone who ticked "stay", the SNP have just announced they have begun the legislative process of a second independence referendum for Scotland, in which the Scottish people will emphatically choose to depart the union and remain a part of the EU.

Which, as I said earlier in this very thread, quite apart from being damaging economically, will necessitate an actual land border between Scotland and England and associated passport controls. Think about that for a moment.

Woo! We've got our country back! Well, bits of it anyway.

Let the Jocks do what they want, they are not that liking of us anyway. A Border between us both wouldn't be any big deal either.  We are better off without that Horrid Sturgeon trying to dictate to us,just toss her a caber when she wants to pop over and she can take flight on it like the witch she is .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 24, 2016, 08:39:09 PM
Seriously,  what loss would Scotland be ?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 24, 2016, 08:48:20 PM
Well the GBP crashed althou later stabilise at the lower end, Some would say the market crashed but we did better than any other EU market today in what is been described as a remarkable turn around of the UK market begining the day with a crash of 8.7% to finish at only 2.82% fall compared to other EU markets which all fell between 6% and 13%

Not be long before most are saying "what was all the fuss about ".
Already fears that other countries will follow us ,  a good indicator that me may well have made the right decision .
Countries already making noises about being able to fix up deals with us .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: BostonGoals on June 24, 2016, 10:25:51 PM
I wonder if Corbyn will become another casualty of all this. He was very much under the radar in what I thought was a pretty underwhelming Remain campaign. He has been eurosceptic in the past so I guess it could have been seen as disingenuous if he had suddenly come out as a massive europhile.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on June 25, 2016, 12:35:43 AM
Boris seemed strangely subdued at the Vote Leave press conference earlier. It's almost as if he didn't actually expect Brexit to happen and only chose to campaign for it for the sake of him becoming PM one day. Perhaps October, with the UK on the edge of breaking up and the economy paralysed by uncertainty is not exactly what he had in mind...

Also, we're probably going to need to make some cuts. I damn well hope they start with the state pension.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 25, 2016, 08:03:18 AM
Boris seemed strangely subdued at the Vote Leave press conference earlier. It's almost as if he didn't actually expect Brexit to happen and only chose to campaign for it for the sake of him becoming PM one day. Perhaps October, with the UK on the edge of breaking up and the economy paralysed by uncertainty is not exactly what he had in mind...

Also, we're probably going to need to make some cuts. I damn well hope they start with the state pension.

The debate on this board  has been going on for several weeks.  And that last statement is the most offensive I have seen.

First, let me state I do not receive a state pension.  But those that do, have PAID into the pension system, it is their right.

Also some collecting the pension fought for the right for you to speak freely.

What happened yesterday was the people of Britain saying enough is enough, not just pensioners as you are inferring.

Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on June 25, 2016, 08:28:01 AM
Boris seemed strangely subdued at the Vote Leave press conference earlier. It's almost as if he didn't actually expect Brexit to happen and only chose to campaign for it for the sake of him becoming PM one day. Perhaps October, with the UK on the edge of breaking up and the economy paralysed by uncertainty is not exactly what he had in mind...

Also, we're probably going to need to make some cuts. I damn well hope they start with the state pension.

The debate on this board  has been going on for several weeks.  And that last statement is the most offensive I have seen.

First, let me state I do not receive a state pension.  But those that do, have PAID into the pension system, it is their right.

Also some collecting the pension fought for the right for you to speak freely.

What happened yesterday was the people of Britain saying enough is enough, not just pensioners as you are inferring.

You have always been an arrogant little s**t and that last statement proves that.

Are you still at uni ?  If so, join the real world.

Sorry Ken, remove if you want, but that statement was out of order.

Well if I made the point too bluntly, apologies. It's a view based on more than just a knee jerk reaction to this outcome - the pension has been just about the one item of government spending to rise in real terms over the last six years, whereas everything else has been cut back. Given that age demographic tend to be richer than most, I think that is both indefensible and unsustainable and it should have been frozen in real terms. It's the grey vote that is dragging us out of the EU, yet they seem the ones who will have to deal with the consequences least - young people are utterly fed up with the legacy they are being bequeathed.

For the record, no, I've been working for two years. In a job which I'm not extremely worried about - because in the real world our economy is highly reliant on trade and cooperation with the continent that we have just decided to tear ourselves away from.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pilgrim86 on June 25, 2016, 08:34:26 AM
What happened yesterday was the people of Britain saying enough is enough, not just pensioners as you are inferring.

You have always been an arrogant little s**t and that last statement proves that.

Are you still at uni ?  If so, join the real world.

Sorry Ken, remove if you want, but that statement was out of order.

No, you are out of order. Abusing someone because of their opinion - and saying "If so, join the real world"? Saying sorry doesn't excuse it.

The biggest age group to vote OUT, was those 65+.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 25, 2016, 08:56:48 AM
What happened yesterday was the people of Britain saying enough is enough, not just pensioners as you are inferring.

You have always been an arrogant little s**t and that last statement proves that.

Are you still at uni ?  If so, join the real world.

Sorry Ken, remove if you want, but that statement was out of order.

No, you are out of order. Abusing someone because of their opinion - and saying "If so, join the real world"? Saying sorry doesn't excuse it.

The biggest age group to vote OUT, was those 65+.

WOW, how dare you take my post out of context.  It was the statement concerning the old age pension, and you know it was.

As I said, I do not receive a state pension.  But to wish for it to be cut is out of order.  These people have worked all their life and PAID into a fund to ensure they have something to live on when they retire.

I was out of order calling Adam and I will remove it.  But it does not change my opinion on the pension issue.

It is like going to a bank and wanting to withdraw your own money.  Only to be told sorry, but you can have some of it we are keeping the rest.  The state pension is a RIGHT, and not a gift by the government.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on June 25, 2016, 09:20:13 AM
In all honesty I wasn't that bothered. Freedom of speech and all that.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Winging It on June 25, 2016, 10:16:33 AM
The age breakdown of Brexit voters is based on UK wide, Not solely Lincolnshire of which we base so many of our personal opinions on.  Had we based the figures on Lincolnshire only, where the OUT vote was over 70% in many areas,you will find that many youngsters were also among these voters. Not everyone living in this County is over 65, aging and unable to consider our youth.
I considered everything i could, and voted to protect the future for our next generations.  Its my opinion of course, nothing more. But when i am among as i say, over 70% of this area's voters, then i think that those 30% who wanted remain should just accept defeat gracefully.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on June 25, 2016, 11:23:09 AM
Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
Secondly, apparently young people are moaning that older people have "taken their future"
I ask them "would you want to walk through a minefield first or second"?
We've been through it....
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 25, 2016, 12:28:50 PM
I think the EU are right (never thought I'd say that), we should get on with the process, invoke Article 50 and GTFO.
If we hang about until October we will lose momentum.
The Remain side have been stressy right from the start and that has been reflected on Patter by some of the posts. Its now degenerated further with some very sour grapes countrywide, so the sooner a new PM is appointed the better  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: oxo on June 25, 2016, 01:15:09 PM
Boris seemed strangely subdued at the Vote Leave press conference earlier. It's almost as if he didn't actually expect Brexit to happen and only chose to campaign for it for the sake of him becoming PM one day. Perhaps October, with the UK on the edge of breaking up and the economy paralysed by uncertainty is not exactly what he had in mind...

Also, we're probably going to need to make some cuts. I damn well hope they start with the state pension.


Vindictive non democratic prat.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 25, 2016, 01:49:38 PM
The stuff about sour grapes is interesting. When the polls suggested a remain win on the day, several leave campaigners, from the Tories and UKIP, and including Nigel Farage came out and said that they "wouldn't accept a result below 60% for remain". So I think we'd be having exactly the same argument with the roles reversed if remain had won. It was incredibly tight over all.

Nearly half the population voted to remain so it's simply not that clear cut. I think anyone who voted leave should be happy to have won, but maybe imagine how they might be feeling if the roles had been reversed. Lots of people had huge doubts over the case to leave and lots of people feel agrieved by the downright lies told by the leave campaign. Maybe if they'd fought a fair fight (this applies to both sides) there would be less acrimony. But they didn't and our prime minister in waiting, and his likely deputy, have set a very low water mark when it comes to trust. We're all going to be governed by these people so I think it's something we should al be worrying about.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on June 25, 2016, 01:52:55 PM
Boris seemed strangely subdued at the Vote Leave press conference earlier. It's almost as if he didn't actually expect Brexit to happen and only chose to campaign for it for the sake of him becoming PM one day. Perhaps October, with the UK on the edge of breaking up and the economy paralysed by uncertainty is not exactly what he had in mind...

Also, we're probably going to need to make some cuts. I damn well hope they start with the state pension.


Vindictive non democratic prat.

I'm not even sure whether to take it as an insult Mel - as Churchill once said, the best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. The words have never rang truer than they have in the last couple of days...
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pilgrim86 on June 25, 2016, 02:15:51 PM
Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
No, but the government know who voted for what, and they have your date of birth!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on June 25, 2016, 04:03:07 PM
Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.

They can only take polls ...thee us no hard evidence
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
No, but the government know who voted for what, and they have your date of birth!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 25, 2016, 04:47:42 PM
Parliament are to debate a second referendum apparently, one is enough I think.
They can also vote down the result of the one we've just held, a nightmare scenario if ever there was one  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on June 25, 2016, 06:50:28 PM
The Remain side have been stressy right from the start and that has been reflected on Patter by some of the posts. Its now degenerated further with some very sour grapes countrywide, so the sooner a new PM is appointed the better  :police:

It's not sour grapes at all. It's exasperation that a lot of leave voters - not all, and I have to say that with a couple of exceptions the debate here has been of a markedly more informed level than many places - had no idea what they were actually voting for and didn't want to listen to anyone who tried explaining it. And now some of what remain said would happen is actually happening, they are starting to regret their choice. Some of the absolute dogpoo I've seen dribbled over Facebook and Twitter the last 24 hours would be hilarious if it didn't have such profound and lasting consequences. Ignorance is no excuse.

The fact that Leave are now pursuing a Norway style deal is also unbelievable. There will be riots when people figure out what the consequences of this are, and they've been played for idiots. This is why Boris looks so despondent; he's been left in the poo by Cameron, and he knows it.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Bostonshire on June 25, 2016, 06:51:38 PM
Truth is i fear a re vote will completly send the markets and pound into meltdown, The reaction yesterday morning showed the market dont like new things facing them, the fact it finished up on a 7 day  line showed that once the market had settled into knowing the choice was made and the BOE was ready for it then it becomes buisness as normal.

We look at ages etc and see the young voted in but the older range voted out but lets not forget the some of them was around when it was the common market and not a dictatorship and made it clear in there votes that there life before was better than under just a UK goverment than a EU Goverment.

The voting map shows no suprises in the way it went, most out votes came from places high on migration, void of investment,High crime rate per a head,low health per a head and most rules and reg made by the EU do not fit them areas where as most in votes came from areas of high EU investment, mostly good wealth and health.

I voted out but would have prefered to be in but felt the EU cash cow and current Goverment can't see outside its cities and as we hear today our relationship with brussels wasnt as good as it was made out to be so i just couldnt see any changes in this
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Deeping Pilgrim on June 25, 2016, 07:18:34 PM
Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
No, but the government know who voted for what, and they have your date of birth!

Am I missing something here as I don't recall a space on my voting form for people to write their names and ages.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on June 25, 2016, 07:18:47 PM
Truth is i fear a re vote will completly send the markets and pound into meltdown, The reaction yesterday morning showed the market dont like new things facing them, the fact it finished up on a 7 day  line showed that once the market had settled into knowing the choice was made and the BOE was ready for it then it becomes buisness as normal.

To be honest, there's little point trying to read into the markets on an intra-day reaction basis in any case (though there will no doubt be plenty of roller coaster days to come). The effects are more likely to show through a prolonged stagnation/gradual fall, when the counter factual would have been a strong and growing economy. We probably won't know what the 'real' value of sterling would be, because I'm not sure the Bank of England will let it be known how much of its reserves it will use to support the pound.

But the effects on the economy will be very real. It's 2016: people have jobs working for firms which have offices in the UK and Europe. Working fluidly across the offices - having teams comprised of people in London and Brussels - providing services to clients in Copenhagen - is part of their culture. These companies are in complete shellshock, because that business model might just cease to be a possibility very soon. People don't realise - or don't care - how intertwined our economy is with Europe. Or many just don't care - but that is perhaps even sadder, because such people tend to be those who recessions hit in the harshest way.

The only way to avoid real damage is if we stay a member of the EEA. On one hand, I'd be happy with it - because it avoids trashing the country completely (we might even cling on to Scotland), but on another it is desperately sad, as we will have achieved precisely nothing other than a downgrading of our current membership status and a lessening of our status in the world. It would send leave voters and Nigel Farage utterly apoplectic, which is both a hilarious and scary prospect (scary because it risks violence).

Incidentally, has anyone got any idea how the feck we're actually going to enact this - given the enormous pro-Remain majority in the House of Commons? If Labour can manage to get rid of Corbyn and replace him with a vaguely animate human being, it's easy to see a coalition of them, the Lib Dems and the SNP being formed after a General Election. A year ago, I hated the prospect of such a coalition, but I'd give an awful lot for it now.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pilgrim86 on June 25, 2016, 08:05:02 PM
Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
No, but the government know who voted for what, and they have your date of birth!

Am I missing something here as I don't recall a space on my voting form for people to write their names and ages.

When I voted, they noted down a reference number against my name/address. I presumed this would be to cross-reference for statistics.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 25, 2016, 08:55:27 PM
Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
Secondly, apparently young people are moaning that older people have "taken their future"
I ask them "would you want to walk through a minefield first or second"?
We've been through it....

I admit to being a bloody liability to the younger generation , I,m 75 years of age paid my taxes and rates/ council tax etc which of much has gone to building roads ,hospitals etc for the old and young .    During part of my working life I met hundreds of   Bostonian  OAP,s on a regular basis .  I addressed these OAPs with respect whether is was a retired  refuge collector ,retired businessman, doctor or even retired authors and the  inflicted such as war veterans .
In return they enriched my knowledge by passing on many lessons they had learned in life ,  much of it more useful than some of the stuff taught at some education establishments .   Dignity tolerance and respect to others was the stand out tips .
In recent months when speaking to local OAPs,  they like myself  put the future of their children/ grandchildren first and foremost when considering which way to vote .  They said it would mean voting out .    Like in my experience stated above these OAPs come from a good cross section of professions , clinicians , business and mainly skilled workers .

Little doubt that they grey vote made a big contribution at Boston ,  maybe someone (maybe Adam) can explain why us present day oldies got it all  wrong and those only just entering adulthood seem to know the answers to a very complex emerging part our history , a subject even the experts disagree on .   

If there was  another referendum what action could be taken to get the correct outcome .

  1 .  Ban the over 60s voting

  2    Declare the negative vote the winner .      i.e .   in  52out    48 stay vote,  declare the 48 vote the winner .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: leicester pilgrim on June 25, 2016, 09:15:56 PM
Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
No, but the government know who voted for what, and they have your date of birth!

Am I missing something here as I don't recall a space on my voting form for people to write their names and ages.

When I voted, they noted down a reference number against my name/address. I presumed this would be to cross-reference for statistics.

In time I'm sure the government could work out who voted for what. But to do that, someone would need to input 34 million records into a spreadsheet before the data could be analysed meaningfully. That would be physically impossible in the time we've had since the referendum took place. Therefore any stats analysing votes by age must be questionable.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 25, 2016, 09:24:17 PM
Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
No, but the government know who voted for what, and they have your date of birth!

Am I missing something here as I don't recall a space on my voting form for people to write their names and ages.

When I voted, they noted down a reference number against my name/address. I presumed this would be to cross-reference for statistics.

In time I'm sure the government could work out who voted for what. But to do that, someone would need to input 34 million records into a spreadsheet before the data could be analysed meaningfully. That would be physically impossible in the time we've had since the referendum took place. Therefore any stats analysing votes by age must be questionable.

I'm pretty sure the age demographics came from the yougov poll taken on the day.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on June 25, 2016, 10:02:57 PM
Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
Secondly, apparently young people are moaning that older people have "taken their future"
I ask them "would you want to walk through a minefield first or second"?
We've been through it....
Little doubt that they grey vote made a big contribution at Boston ,  maybe someone (maybe Adam) can explain why us present day oldies got it all  wrong and those only just entering adulthood seem to know the answers to a very complex emerging part our history , a subject even the experts disagree on .   

If there was  another referendum what action could be taken to get the correct outcome .

  1 .  Ban the over 60s voting

  2    Declare the negative vote the winner .      i.e .   in  52out    48 stay vote,  declare the 48 vote the winner .

I feel it's the wrong decision because it has put at peril Britain's place in the world's biggest single common market - which in 2016 our economy is deeply intertwined with and dependent upon. This vote has led to the resignation of a very competent Prime Minister - to be replaced by either Boris Johnson (who clearly didn't actually want or expect this result and has no clue whatsoever what to do about it), or Jeremy Corbyn (who has no clue whatsoever about anything, at all). The second largest constituent nation of the UK is likely to accede (who can blame them?), and we are faced with either erecting a land border around our fourth nation or it also acceding. Oh, I may also shortly lose the right to live and work freely across 27 different nations - should I have wished to do so - and many of my friends from abroad are considering leaving the country. The impact of 'making our own laws' is actually that we have to rewrite 40 years of legislation over boring but essential things like product standards - basically replacing European red tape with British red tape and ensuring that businesses have to meet two sets rather than one if they wish to sell abroad.

A year ago Great Britain had the fastest growing economy in the Western world. Now we have no leadership,fewer friends and no bloody clue where we'll be in five years time.

Happy Independence Day!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 25, 2016, 10:26:28 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 25, 2016, 10:39:50 PM


  2    Declare the negative vote the winner .      i.e .   in  52out    48 stay vote,  declare the 48 vote the winner .

Yes the intellectual gulag are pushing to make this an in/in referendum.


In an ideal world Cameron would have started sorting out plan b when he first offered us the chance to vote on this.
Shows a staggering level of arrogance and stupidity to offer the  plebiscite and then do bugger all for a  contingency plan. The ultimate piss take by the elite to assume that they could just frighten us plebs into their way of thinking by wheeling out 'experts' and establishment celebrities on a daily basis. It worked for them in the Scottish Referendum but as soon as Obama stuck his oar in it seemed unlikely that those tactics were going to work.
That's when Cameron should have levelled with us.  If he'd have made a statement along the lines of  "Listen guys, I know I offered you an in/out referendum but it was token gesture politics, and in reality, if we vote out we're fecked" well who knows, the general public might've respected his honesty and taken notice.
He's still at it now, resigning and then saying he's not going until October, giving enough time for an alternative outcome to a Brexit to be formulated by his establishment cronies.

Cameron should be removed to the Tower and Liam Fox brought in as an interim measure to get on with invoking Article 50 and sorting out the mess left behind.  Germany are already asking about trade with the UK after we leave and there will be plenty more in the queue.  :police:






Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 25, 2016, 10:43:57 PM
Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
Secondly, apparently young people are moaning that older people have "taken their future"
I ask them "would you want to walk through a minefield first or second"?
We've been through it....


In recent months when speaking to local OAPs,  they like myself  put the future of their children/ grandchildren first and foremost when considering which way to vote .  They said it would mean voting out .   



By ignoring what they wanted and deciding that they knew better?

Well, maybe the young (and I include myself in this) could argue the converse, that we voted for what we thought was in your best interests. Like a successful economy with lots of young immigrants paying taxes to fund your pensions, maintain the NHS (which you are much more likely to need than us) and working as care workers?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on June 25, 2016, 11:13:59 PM
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html

And an interesting view from an Italian.....

http://youtu.be/2Futxf1U2f8

Tbh it's like religion.....it's what you believe, what you feel. Only hindsight will deliver the answers.

I saw a Facebook post earlier today where Eu workers here are planning a General strike on .july 4th....
I wonder what will happen there?
I personally don't want to see a mass exodus of them....just some sort of regulated flow both ways.
What would happen to them wasn't discussed during the debates (or did I miss something)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on June 25, 2016, 11:27:30 PM
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html
What would happen to them wasn't discussed during the debates (or did I miss something)

Nothing will happen to them. Those already here will never be told to leave, otherwise Aunt Bettie who's retired to Spain or Mark Isaac who has a house in France can expect the same treatment, and that won't be acceptable will it?

The more likely scenario is that our economy tanks and all the migrants who haven't laid down substantial roots bugger off to better performing nations, leaving a massive labour shortage in Lincolnshire (it's worth remembering local landowners thought a Brexit vote would be a disaster for the Boston local economy - see the John Harris film from last year).
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 25, 2016, 11:50:19 PM
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html

And an interesting view from an Italian.....

http://youtu.be/2Futxf1U2f8

Tbh it's like religion.....it's what you believe, what you feel. Only hindsight will deliver the answers.

I saw a Facebook post earlier today where Eu workers here are planning a General strike on .july 4th....
I wonder what will happen there?
I personally don't want to see a mass exodus of them....just some sort of regulated flow both ways.
What would happen to them wasn't discussed during the debates (or did I miss something)

It's an interesting video. It doesn't really chime with the reality for me though. I've worked for a couple of small to medium engineering firms in the recent past that were selling products via the common market. I would imagine right now they will worrying what this means for them as that was basically their core business. Additionally we were selling products to China, Malysia and South Korea without any blocks put in by the EU. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't detected any issue whereby EU membership inhibits trade with country's outside the block?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 26, 2016, 09:30:19 AM
From another prospective, these are interesting facts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9cLwoTkWes
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 26, 2016, 11:52:55 AM
Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
Secondly, apparently young people are moaning that older people have "taken their future"
I ask them "would you want to walk through a minefield first or second"?
We've been through it....
Little doubt that they grey vote made a big contribution at Boston ,  maybe someone (maybe Adam) can explain why us present day oldies got it all  wrong and those only just entering adulthood seem to know the answers to a very complex emerging part our history , a subject even the experts disagree on .   

If there was  another referendum what action could be taken to get the correct outcome .

  1 .  Ban the over 60s voting

  2    Declare the negative vote the winner .      i.e .   in  52out    48 stay vote,  declare the 48 vote the winner .

I feel it's the wrong decision because it has put at peril Britain's place in the world's biggest single common market - which in 2016 our economy is deeply intertwined with and dependent upon. This vote has led to the resignation of a very competent Prime Minister - to be replaced by either Boris Johnson (who clearly didn't actually want or expect this result and has no clue whatsoever what to do about it), or Jeremy Corbyn (who has no clue whatsoever about anything, at all). The second largest constituent nation of the UK is likely to accede (who can blame them?), and we are faced with either erecting a land border around our fourth nation or it also acceding. Oh, I may also shortly lose the right to live and work freely across 27 different nations - should I have wished to do so - and many of my friends from abroad are considering leaving the country. The impact of 'making our own laws' is actually that we have to rewrite 40 years of legislation over boring but essential things like product standards - basically replacing European red tape with British red tape and ensuring that businesses have to meet two sets rather than one if they wish to sell abroad.

A year ago Great Britain had the fastest growing economy in the Western world. Now we have no leadership,fewer friends and no bloody clue where we'll be in five years time.

Happy Independence Day!

Odd that you keep giving us long sermon,s about a very complex subject yet when I put a simple question to you that only needs a short answer you fail to respond !!!   what is your response to my clear question ?

Judging on your comments re Cameron I think it,s time to change your spin doctor .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on June 26, 2016, 12:19:56 PM
Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
Secondly, apparently young people are moaning that older people have "taken their future"
I ask them "would you want to walk through a minefield first or second"?
We've been through it....
Little doubt that they grey vote made a big contribution at Boston ,  maybe someone (maybe Adam) can explain why us present day oldies got it all  wrong and those only just entering adulthood seem to know the answers to a very complex emerging part our history , a subject even the experts disagree on .   

If there was  another referendum what action could be taken to get the correct outcome .

  1 .  Ban the over 60s voting

  2    Declare the negative vote the winner .      i.e .   in  52out    48 stay vote,  declare the 48 vote the winner .

I feel it's the wrong decision because it has put at peril Britain's place in the world's biggest single common market - which in 2016 our economy is deeply intertwined with and dependent upon. This vote has led to the resignation of a very competent Prime Minister - to be replaced by either Boris Johnson (who clearly didn't actually want or expect this result and has no clue whatsoever what to do about it), or Jeremy Corbyn (who has no clue whatsoever about anything, at all). The second largest constituent nation of the UK is likely to accede (who can blame them?), and we are faced with either erecting a land border around our fourth nation or it also acceding. Oh, I may also shortly lose the right to live and work freely across 27 different nations - should I have wished to do so - and many of my friends from abroad are considering leaving the country. The impact of 'making our own laws' is actually that we have to rewrite 40 years of legislation over boring but essential things like product standards - basically replacing European red tape with British red tape and ensuring that businesses have to meet two sets rather than one if they wish to sell abroad.

A year ago Great Britain had the fastest growing economy in the Western world. Now we have no leadership,fewer friends and no bloody clue where we'll be in five years time.

Happy Independence Day!

Odd that you keep giving us long sermon,s about a very complex subject yet when I put a simple question to you that only needs a short answer you fail to respond !!!   what is your response to my clear question ?

Judging on your comments re Cameron I think it,s time to change your spin doctor .

Your question was why do I think Brexit is the wrong call. My response was that - amongst other things - the country is now utterly rudderless with no effective government, our economy is going to be deeply wounded, the United Kingdom itself is likely to break up and I may lose the freedom to live and work across Europe. If you still can't digest that, then I'm sorry - it's not possible to simplify it any more. Or perhaps you think these are good things?

And 'long sermon'? It was one paragraph...
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 26, 2016, 12:38:18 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on June 26, 2016, 12:51:55 PM


At his last Referendum meet held at the Sack Store the turn-out was 10 ,  I think its safe t say ALL were offer 60 .  No hand vote was needed as it was clear all were outers , 
Sack store? Ironic?
Despite overwhelming out voters in his constituency he went the other way....fair enough with me.
As for the"young"question.....maybe those of us us who voted in and saw what it had become (certainly nothing to what WE were sold at the time) realised our mistake and voted out to benefit the younger ones?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 26, 2016, 01:14:19 PM
That's interesting re Matt Warman, echoes of what's happening with Corbyn.
We have a local MP who is out of touch with the views of the majority of his constituents...it will be difficult for the local rag, and the council leader to put a positive spin on that one  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: York Street Pilgrim on June 26, 2016, 01:26:11 PM
I can't believe all this talk of a second referendum. What would that cost the public purse? If the government chose not to act in the wishes of the majority, wouldn't that mean we no longer lived in a democracy?

Let's look at it another way. A lot of people were unhappy with a football result in North Ferriby a few weeks ago. The outcome was the outcome. But if enough of the dissenters signed a petition to the league, could a replay of the playoff be ordered to take place?

Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ernie100 on June 26, 2016, 02:59:18 PM
All this gubbings about the young not being able to travel or work in the EU, as regard travel, ask a youngster where they would like to travel their answer would most likely be Australia, Asia and America, all need visas and passports, and as for work, "If you've got the tools you'll get the job".
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 26, 2016, 08:10:47 PM
Statistics are being bandied about on the breakdown of the vote re age groups.
I can't recall seeing an age thing on my slip.
Secondly, apparently young people are moaning that older people have "taken their future"
I ask them "would you want to walk through a minefield first or second"?
We've been through it....
Little doubt that they grey vote made a big contribution at Boston ,  maybe someone (maybe Adam) can explain why us present day oldies got it all  wrong and those only just entering adulthood seem to know the answers to a very complex emerging part our history , a subject even the experts disagree on .   

If there was  another referendum what action could be taken to get the correct outcome .

  1 .  Ban the over 60s voting

  2    Declare the negative vote the winner .      i.e .   in  52out    48 stay vote,  declare the 48 vote the winner .

I feel it's the wrong decision because it has put at peril Britain's place in the world's biggest single common market - which in 2016 our economy is deeply intertwined with and dependent upon. This vote has led to the resignation of a very competent Prime Minister - to be replaced by either Boris Johnson (who clearly didn't actually want or expect this result and has no clue whatsoever what to do about it), or Jeremy Corbyn (who has no clue whatsoever about anything, at all). The second largest constituent nation of the UK is likely to accede (who can blame them?), and we are faced with either erecting a land border around our fourth nation or it also acceding. Oh, I may also shortly lose the right to live and work freely across 27 different nations - should I have wished to do so - and many of my friends from abroad are considering leaving the country. The impact of 'making our own laws' is actually that we have to rewrite 40 years of legislation over boring but essential things like product standards - basically replacing European red tape with British red tape and ensuring that businesses have to meet two sets rather than one if they wish to sell abroad.

A year ago Great Britain had the fastest growing economy in the Western world. Now we have no leadership,fewer friends and no bloody clue where we'll be in five years time.

Happy Independence Day!

Odd that you keep giving us long sermon,s about a very complex subject yet when I put a simple question to you that only needs a short answer you fail to respond !!!   what is your response to my clear question ?

Judging on your comments re Cameron I think it,s time to change your spin doctor .

Your question was why do I think Brexit is the wrong call. My response was that - amongst other things - the country is now utterly rudderless with no effective government, our economy is going to be deeply wounded, the United Kingdom itself is likely to break up and I may lose the freedom to live and work across Europe. If you still can't digest that, then I'm sorry - it's not possible to simplify it any more. Or perhaps you think these are good things?

And 'long sermon'? It was one paragraph...




The question was ,
 If there is another referendum what action could be taken to get the correct outcome for the Remains ,

1  Ban the over 60,s voting ,
2 Declare the negative vote the winner , i e 52 out 48 stay ............declare the 48 stay the winner .

The long sermon was an overall description of the many posts of propaganda from your  Leave EU Reference
Manual .


Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on June 26, 2016, 08:12:00 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Tetk_ayO1x4
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 26, 2016, 08:45:36 PM
It strikes me that Brexiteers are willfully ignorant to the options that face us following a Leave vote. If we want to control migration - rightly or wrongly probably the number one concern of Leave votes - we will not have anything like access to the single market on the terms we do now. That would be somewhere between very bad and catastrophic for the economy. It'll mean something between tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of jobs being lost. Just look at what has happened to indicators of business confidence and investment in 2016 at the mere possibility of an exit.

Who will it be who loses their jobs? It certainly won't be people like Boris Johnson and Michael Gove - recessions don't hit Westminster. Could that be why they're so carefree about the prospect of exit? Could it also be one of the reasons why pensioners - whose incomes are not linked to economic performance in the way those of working age people are - are more prone to voting for leave?

Surprised that your EXIT EU REFERENCE MANUAL failed to predict Dodgy Dave would go .

Can you explain to us less educated OAPs why our income not linked to economic performance performance in the same way as working age people ?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Fairfax on June 26, 2016, 11:04:52 PM
We have our nation back. We must fight against all who attempt to overturn democracy. They ask what is our plan? It is to replace the European laws that we wish to continue with, by passing acts to make it so, and to reject those which we do not wish to continue with. Then we get on with governing the nation. I think that will do for now. What we are offered is blood, toil, tears and sweat (apologies to Sir Winston), but we will emerge into the sunlight of the Britain (historically England) that has been our way of life for the best part of a thousand years. We have always opposed the overpowering force of the strongest power in Europe by backing the second strongest. This way, we keep Europe under control, although Louis XIV, Napoleon and Hitler temporarily gave us problems.

I fear that any attempt to overturn a democratic decision, by whatever means, will result in blood letting on a level that has not been seen in our nation certainly since the act of settlement, and probably much longer. We must move forward and educate the younger generation who cannot remember what it means to be in charge of our own country, and do business with the rest of the world (including Europe). If we have decent products and services to sell, the world will buy. Don't let anyone convince you that the vote was a mistake. It was the saving of a nation, and I have the temerity to suggest, the saving of the 21st Century World.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on June 26, 2016, 11:51:13 PM
We have our nation back. We must fight against all who attempt to overturn democracy. They ask what is our plan? It is to replace the European laws that we wish to continue with, by passing acts to make it so, and to reject those which we do not wish to continue with. Then we get on with governing the nation. I think that will do for now. What we are offered is blood, toil, tears and sweat (apologies to Sir Winston), but we will emerge into the sunlight of the Britain (historically England) that has been our way of life for the best part of a thousand years. We have always opposed the overpowering force of the strongest power in Europe by backing the second strongest. This way, we keep Europe under control, although Louis XIV, Napoleon and Hitler temporarily gave us problems.

I fear that any attempt to overturn a democratic decision, by whatever means, will result in blood letting on a level that has not been seen in our nation certainly since the act of settlement, and probably much longer. We must move forward and educate the younger generation who cannot remember what it means to be in charge of our own country, and do business with the rest of the world (including Europe). If we have decent products and services to sell, the world will buy. Don't let anyone convince you that the vote was a mistake. It was the saving of a nation, and I have the temerity to suggest, the saving of the 21st Century World.

Yeah, except Boris has tonight confirmed he wants to stay in the single market, so his plan is basically everything staying exactly the same as now - we just won't get a vote in the EU parliament.

That what you voted for?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Fairfax on June 27, 2016, 01:29:28 AM
I don't remember voting on what Boris thinks, nor do I believe his opinions to be relevant. I know only what I voted for, and that is to return the sovereignty of my country to the state that I enjoyed in my youth. It was a matter of Great Britain, or little britain as a minor parish in an out of control monolith. Parliament will decide what we agree to as we are once again a unitary power beholden to no other nation. How parliament is constituted will depend on the will of the people, and as such, I see the need for an early general election to sort out the present chaos. Let us make our own laws and stop worrying about the fetters of a single market or any other European pretension. We voted for a single market once and we were duped . We should not fall into that trap again. If we mess up this God-given opportunity, history will be unforgiving.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: lonegunman on June 27, 2016, 08:54:25 AM
Well said Fairfax, i feel exactly the same.
Boris plays the buffoon, in reality he's just like dodgy Dave. Politics is a dirty game, they all fid and would stich up anyone to get where they want to be.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 27, 2016, 10:02:40 AM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 27, 2016, 10:18:24 AM
We have our nation back. We must fight against all who attempt to overturn democracy. They ask what is our plan? It is to replace the European laws that we wish to continue with, by passing acts to make it so, and to reject those which we do not wish to continue with. Then we get on with governing the nation. I think that will do for now. What we are offered is blood, toil, tears and sweat (apologies to Sir Winston), but we will emerge into the sunlight of the Britain (historically England) that has been our way of life for the best part of a thousand years. We have always opposed the overpowering force of the strongest power in Europe by backing the second strongest. This way, we keep Europe under control, although Louis XIV, Napoleon and Hitler temporarily gave us problems.

I fear that any attempt to overturn a democratic decision, by whatever means, will result in blood letting on a level that has not been seen in our nation certainly since the act of settlement, and probably much longer. We must move forward and educate the younger generation who cannot remember what it means to be in charge of our own country, and do business with the rest of the world (including Europe). If we have decent products and services to sell, the world will buy. Don't let anyone convince you that the vote was a mistake. It was the saving of a nation, and I have the temerity to suggest, the saving of the 21st Century World.

I don't know how old you are, but I'm not sure if that country as you remember it ever really existed. It's natural to always look back at the past with rose tinted glasses. Certainly in my studies of history and reading literature from the time, things weren't all that great.

Even if that place you remember so fondly did exist, it doesn't any more, we live in a completely different world to the one we did 50 years ago. We can either choose to embrace that and be a major player, or we can go off and bury our heads in the sand.

The world is a global place now and, although a still a great nation, we are not the great power we once were. The Aneeicans, the Chinese, and now the EU, may listen to us but in the end they will do what is in their own best interests and we will be powerless to stop them. As part of the EU, we were a strong influence within a large block of nations and had a great deal more collective bargaining power.

We have to look forwards not backwards if we are going to continue to be a great nation.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on June 27, 2016, 10:20:55 AM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on June 27, 2016, 10:43:39 AM
We have our nation back. We must fight against all who attempt to overturn democracy. They ask what is our plan? It is to replace the European laws that we wish to continue with, by passing acts to make it so, and to reject those which we do not wish to continue with. Then we get on with governing the nation. I think that will do for now. What we are offered is blood, toil, tears and sweat (apologies to Sir Winston), but we will emerge into the sunlight of the Britain (historically England) that has been our way of life for the best part of a thousand years. We have always opposed the overpowering force of the strongest power in Europe by backing the second strongest. This way, we keep Europe under control, although Louis XIV, Napoleon and Hitler temporarily gave us problems.

I fear that any attempt to overturn a democratic decision, by whatever means, will result in blood letting on a level that has not been seen in our nation certainly since the act of settlement, and probably much longer. We must move forward and educate the younger generation who cannot remember what it means to be in charge of our own country, and do business with the rest of the world (including Europe). If we have decent products and services to sell, the world will buy. Don't let anyone convince you that the vote was a mistake. It was the saving of a nation, and I have the temerity to suggest, the saving of the 21st Century World.

I don't know how old you are, but I'm not sure if that country as you remember it ever really existed. It's natural to always look back at the past with rose tinted glasses. Certainly in my studies of history and reading literature from the time, things weren't all that great.

Even if that place you remember so fondly did exist, it doesn't any more, we live in a completely different world to the one we did 50 years ago. We can either choose to embrace that and be a major player, or we can go off and bury our heads in the sand.

The world is a global place now and, although a still a great nation, we are not the great power we once were. The Aneeicans, the Chinese, and now the EU, may listen to us but in the end they will do what is in their own best interests and we will be powerless to stop them. As part of the EU, we were a strong influence within a large block of nations and had a great deal more collective bargaining power.

We have to look forwards not backwards if we are going to continue to be a great nation.

I heard the 70s were great. Our economy - based on mining and the manufacturing of terrible cars - generated so much wealth that we were able to go down to a three day working week!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 27, 2016, 10:49:57 AM
The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ferret on June 27, 2016, 11:31:21 AM
I heard the 70s were great. Our economy - based on mining and the manufacturing of terrible cars..........

My "terrible" 70's car is still going strong.  Although got to agree that you don't see many Marinas, Allegros or Maxis around these days.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 27, 2016, 11:54:25 AM
The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!

In 2016  a civil war commenced on Pilgrim Patter based on lies by politicians and speculation from "experts " :)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 27, 2016, 12:09:16 PM
The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!

In 2016  a civil war commenced on Pilgrim Patter based on lies by politicians and speculation from "experts " :)

Why do you keep putting experts in inverted commas? I know the answer of course, it's an attempt to try and belittle anyone who's studied the facts and produces an opinion that differs from your own. It's a bit silly isn't it?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 27, 2016, 12:19:59 PM
The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!

In 2016  a civil war commenced on Pilgrim Patter based on lies by politicians and speculation from "experts " :)

Why do you keep putting experts in inverted commas? I know the answer of course, it's an attempt to try and belittle anyone who's studied the facts and produces an opinion that differs from your own. It's a bit silly isn't it?

Not silly , have experienced like many the advice of people who,s studied the facts ,  often results in disaster .       Wise not to rely too much on these experts .   weather you are  an IN or OUTER  .

Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 27, 2016, 12:24:02 PM
The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!

In 2016  a civil war commenced on Pilgrim Patter based on lies by politicians and speculation from "experts " :)


Why do you keep putting experts in inverted commas? I know the answer of course, it's an attempt to try and belittle anyone who's studied the facts and produces an opinion that differs from your own. It's a bit silly isn't it?

Not silly , have experienced like many the advice of people who,s studied the facts ,  often results in disaster .       Wise not to rely too much on these experts .   weather you are  an IN or OUTER  .

This is about the daftest comment I've seen on this thread yet and that's saying something! Then again, like your messiah Farage said the other day, "I think the experts have got it wrong on smoking".  ::)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 27, 2016, 12:30:52 PM
I'm not saying experts are infallible, but does that mean we should ignore all experts? Everyday your very existence relys on experts relying on facts. It why planes fly, cars stop when you touch the brakes and bridges don't normally collapse when you drive over them. You can't just dismiss all experts based on the fact you've had a few bad experiences! If you disagree with something an expert has said, challenge it directly and prove why they are wrong. That goes on in the academic world every single day, trust me.

I can't really believe we are having this conversation. It's surreal.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Fairfax on June 27, 2016, 01:09:54 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 27, 2016, 01:39:09 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pilgrim86 on June 27, 2016, 01:44:30 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 27, 2016, 02:51:06 PM
The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!

In 2016  a civil war commenced on Pilgrim Patter based on lies by politicians and speculation from "experts " :)


Why do you keep putting experts in inverted commas? I know the answer of course, it's an attempt to try and belittle anyone who's studied the facts and produces an opinion that differs from your own. It's a bit silly isn't it?

Not silly , have experienced like many the advice of people who,s studied the facts ,  often results in disaster .       Wise not to rely too much on these experts .   weather you are  an IN or OUTER  .

This is about the daftest comment I've seen on this thread yet and that's saying something! Then again, like your messiah Farage said the other day, "I think the experts have got it wrong on smoking".  ::)

Now that is silly Max , can you name an expert who never got it wrong ?   Then again you appear vulnerable to incorrect assertions .   Voted tory more times than you ,  never voted labour and looks as though I ever will .

On this thread I have panned leaders of all political parties , and all Brexit and Withdraw  teams front lines .
Farage , Camerron , Corbyn ,Boris, IDS etc  ,  men with little more integrity than the gravy train mob at Brussels .
I,ve had enough of EU vote today ,  spent morning playing golf with a former senior union official sulking at the outcome .
Then in the car park was confronted by a none British golfer rejoicing in the outcome .
Sorry everyone can,t be pleased .
Tell you the same as I told the golfer maybe you side came second because they were beaten by slightly better liar,s .
Got to live with it and get on with our lives ,  Provided pay is cut or pegged at the present level every thing will turn out fine .  Dare,nt tell my ex-union colleague that !!!




Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 27, 2016, 03:24:38 PM
The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!

In 2016  a civil war commenced on Pilgrim Patter based on lies by politicians and speculation from "experts " :)


Why do you keep putting experts in inverted commas? I know the answer of course, it's an attempt to try and belittle anyone who's studied the facts and produces an opinion that differs from your own. It's a bit silly isn't it?

Not silly , have experienced like many the advice of people who,s studied the facts ,  often results in disaster .       Wise not to rely too much on these experts .   weather you are  an IN or OUTER  .

This is about the daftest comment I've seen on this thread yet and that's saying something! Then again, like your messiah Farage said the other day, "I think the experts have got it wrong on smoking".  ::)

Now that is silly Max , can you name an expert who never got it wrong ?   Then again you appear vulnerable to incorrect assertions .   Voted tory more times than you ,  never voted labour and looks as though I ever will .

On this thread I have panned leaders of all political parties , and all Brexit and Withdraw  teams front lines .
Farage , Camerron , Corbyn ,Boris, IDS etc  ,  men with little more integrity than the gravy train mob at Brussels .
I,ve had enough of EU vote today ,  spent morning playing golf with a former senior union official sulking at the outcome .
Then in the car park was confronted by a none British golfer rejoicing in the outcome .
Sorry everyone can,t be pleased .
Tell you the same as I told the golfer maybe you side came second because they were beaten by slightly better liar,s .
Got to live with it and get on with our lives ,  Provided pay is cut or pegged at the present level every thing will turn out fine .  Dare,nt tell my ex-union colleague that !!!

I think I made it clear that all experts are fallible, of course they are. However, you can't just dismiss them simply for being "experts". Working on that assumption we may as well do everything off the hoof. If you feel an expert has said something which is incorrect or disingenuous, simply provide a credible explanation as to why. You can't very well scold me though for claiming I said all experts are infallible when you are claiming the opposite!

When it comes to being vulnerable to incorrect assertions, all I'd say is take a look at those who led the leave campaign tripping over each other to disown all the claims they made pre referendum. Leave voters bought all that hook line and sinker.  Don't you feel just a little bit angry about that?

I'm glad you enjoyed your game of golf, but you don't need to worry, I've accepted the result. I just think it's important to hold these politicians to account and point out that they lied to us all. That's now very obvious, along with the fact that they never had a plan. 


Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 27, 2016, 03:40:48 PM
The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!

In 2016  a civil war commenced on Pilgrim Patter based on lies by politicians and speculation from "experts " :)


Why do you keep putting experts in inverted commas? I know the answer of course, it's an attempt to try and belittle anyone who's studied the facts and produces an opinion that differs from your own. It's a bit silly isn't it?

Not silly , have experienced like many the advice of people who,s studied the facts ,  often results in disaster .       Wise not to rely too much on these experts .   weather you are  an IN or OUTER  .

This is about the daftest comment I've seen on this thread yet and that's saying something! Then again, like your messiah Farage said the other day, "I think the experts have got it wrong on smoking".  ::)

Now that is silly Max , can you name an expert who never got it wrong ?   Then again you appear vulnerable to incorrect assertions .   Voted tory more times than you ,  never voted labour and looks as though I ever will .

On this thread I have panned leaders of all political parties , and all Brexit and Withdraw  teams front lines .
Farage , Camerron , Corbyn ,Boris, IDS etc  ,  men with little more integrity than the gravy train mob at Brussels .
I,ve had enough of EU vote today ,  spent morning playing golf with a former senior union official sulking at the outcome .
Then in the car park was confronted by a none British golfer rejoicing in the outcome .
Sorry everyone can,t be pleased .
Tell you the same as I told the golfer maybe you side came second because they were beaten by slightly better liar,s .
Got to live with it and get on with our lives ,  Provided pay is cut or pegged at the present level every thing will turn out fine .  Dare,nt tell my ex-union colleague that !!!

I think I made it clear that all experts are fallible, of course they are. However, you can't just dismiss them simply for being "experts". Working on that assumption we may as well do everything off the hoof. If you feel an expert has said something which is incorrect or disingenuous, simply provide a credible explanation as to why. You can't very well scold me though for claiming I said all experts are infallible when you are claiming the opposite!

When it comes to being vulnerable to incorrect assertions, all I'd say is take a look at those who led the leave campaign tripping over each other to disown all the claims they made pre referendum. Leave voters bought all that hook line and sinker.  Don't you feel just a little bit angry about that?

I'm glad you enjoyed your game of golf, but you don't need to worry, I've accepted the result. I just think it's important to hold these politicians to account and point out that they lied to us all. That's now very obvious, along with the fact that they never had a plan.


I stated both sides were liars Max , I think your right many voters fell for these lies .   But I would not make the assertion that one side gained more votes than the other this way , I would hope these votes where evenly spread .Shame there was not a more emphatic outcome ,
 near enough  a 0-0 draw but no shoot-outs in this game .

Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 27, 2016, 03:55:31 PM
The 30's were going so well that they decided to have a world war and spent the next 20 years rebuilding everything!



In 2016  a civil war commenced on Pilgrim Patter based on lies by politicians and speculation from "experts " :)


Why do you keep putting experts in inverted commas? I know the answer of course, it's an attempt to try and belittle anyone who's studied the facts and produces an opinion that differs from your own. It's a bit silly isn't it?

Not silly , have experienced like many the advice of people who,s studied the facts ,  often results in disaster .       Wise not to rely too much on these experts .   weather you are  an IN or OUTER  .

This is about the daftest comment I've seen on this thread yet and that's saying something! Then again, like your messiah Farage said the other day, "I think the experts have got it wrong on smoking".  ::)

Now that is silly Max , can you name an expert who never got it wrong ?   Then again you appear vulnerable to incorrect assertions .   Voted tory more times than you ,  never voted labour and looks as though I ever will .

On this thread I have panned leaders of all political parties , and all Brexit and Withdraw  teams front lines .
Farage , Camerron , Corbyn ,Boris, IDS etc  ,  men with little more integrity than the gravy train mob at Brussels .
I,ve had enough of EU vote today ,  spent morning playing golf with a former senior union official sulking at the outcome .
Then in the car park was confronted by a none British golfer rejoicing in the outcome .
Sorry everyone can,t be pleased .
Tell you the same as I told the golfer maybe you side came second because they were beaten by slightly better liar,s .
Got to live with it and get on with our lives ,  Provided pay is cut or pegged at the present level every thing will turn out fine .  Dare,nt tell my ex-union colleague that !!!

I think I made it clear that all experts are fallible, of course they are. However, you can't just dismiss them simply for being "experts". Working on that assumption we may as well do everything off the hoof. If you feel an expert has said something which is incorrect or disingenuous, simply provide a credible explanation as to why. You can't very well scold me though for claiming I said all experts are infallible when you are claiming the opposite!

When it comes to being vulnerable to incorrect assertions, all I'd say is take a look at those who led the leave campaign tripping over each other to disown all the claims they made pre referendum. Leave voters bought all that hook line and sinker.  Don't you feel just a little bit angry about that?

I'm glad you enjoyed your game of golf, but you don't need to worry, I've accepted the result. I just think it's important to hold these politicians to account and point out that they lied to us all. That's now very obvious, along with the fact that they never had a plan.


I stated both sides were liars Max , I think your right many voters fell for these lies .   But I would not make the assertion that one side gained more votes than the other this way , I would hope these votes where evenly spread .Shame there was not a more emphatic outcome ,
 near enough  a 0-0 draw but no shoot-outs in this game .

I certainly take your point, there was stuff that the remain side said that I didn't think was credible either.  That's why I stopped listening to politicians. But there were credible sources of info out there (some may call them "experts") who were providing information which has since proven to be correct.

I think it's a dangerous step for society if we simply dismiss all expert opinion. That leaves us in the hands of the demogogues. For me, that was what was most concerning about the leave campaign. They realised early on that normal rational debate wasn't cutting it, so they simply pumped out a load of completely false claims and tapped into primal fears. I think we really should hold anyone proven to have done that to account. I welcome welcome anyone providing evidence of that from the remain side too. George Osbornes emergency budget was a good example of that.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Fairfax on June 27, 2016, 04:29:24 PM
I've just thought of something else from the era of television expansion in the sixties, and the prophetic words of Millicent Martin:

That was the week that was. It's over. Let it go!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 27, 2016, 04:43:12 PM
I've just thought of something else from the era of television expansion in the sixties, and the prophetic words of Millicent Martin:

That was the week that was. It's over. Let it go!

The trouble is, it's precient because these people are now in charge.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: The Third Twin on June 27, 2016, 08:02:30 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: ceamboy on June 27, 2016, 10:06:25 PM

I suppose all the remain voters  who have been posting on here will want a rerun of the England Iceland match now as its not gone how they want it to finish.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 27, 2016, 10:42:03 PM
The answer to Dipodah's original query appears to be 'out'.  :dan
Is this the longest ever thread on Patter Ken?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 27, 2016, 11:31:27 PM

I suppose all the remain voters  who have been posting on here will want a rerun of the England Iceland match now as its not gone how they want it to finish.

Obviously! The British people were completely misled about the quality of our team! It's a disgrace! And it's obviously the fault of Corbyn as he didn't campaign hard enough for a England win.

(Jokes)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Fairfax on June 28, 2016, 07:01:08 PM
What is fast developing as a matter of concern to me is the type of out that we are about to get. As I see it , we may be offered 1) just a bit out - we didn't really mean it, 2) not really out - give us all the perks, 3) please don't let us leave - find a way to stop it, and 4) ever so sorry - we didn't mean it and it's time for us to adopt the euro.

I voted for out. Out means out. we really need to sever all ties and start again. It will soon become clear which matters are of mutual benefit to us and the Eu, and where it is not obvious, we need to take a step back and look at our global position. Whatever the future, I am convinced that the politicians are planning to sell us down the river, and I fear that the river may be the Styx.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on June 28, 2016, 07:40:05 PM
What is fast developing as a matter of concern to me is the type of out that we are about to get. As I see it , we may be offered 1) just a bit out - we didn't really mean it, 2) not really out - give us all the perks, 3) please don't let us leave - find a way to stop it, and 4) ever so sorry - we didn't mean it and it's time for us to adopt the euro.

I voted for out. Out means out. we really need to sever all ties and start again. It will soon become clear which matters are of mutual benefit to us and the Eu, and where it is not obvious, we need to take a step back and look at our global position. Whatever the future, I am convinced that the politicians are planning to sell us down the river, and I fear that the river may be the Styx.

It really depends on the new PM, and what deal he/she gets from the EU. Jeremy Hunt has already intimated today he will seek to retain freedom of movement within the EEA. Boris, after his shambles of a column yesterday in which he suggested he could retain EEA membership AND bring in a points system (impossible) has today backtracked and said, no, he will definitely curtail freedom of movement. This will mean quitting the single market, which means we'll need to negotiate a separate trade deal with the EU. It is evident that this will be nowhere near as good as the deal we have now, but we will at least be free to then negotiate trade deals with non-EU countries as a sovereign nation. These normally take at least five years, so once you've factored in the two year negotiation period when we'll still be part of the EU, the earliest we will start experiencing the full benefits - if there are any - of the freedom Brexit affords us will be sometime after 2023. I'd say a more realistic target is 2025 and beyond.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on June 28, 2016, 09:59:36 PM
i was surprised at Farage getting some supportive applause before going into rude/smug mode and getting jeered at.
i recall it being at the point where he suggested others may leave..(the applause not the jeering)

............possibly a load of old tosh...................
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12018877/The-truth-how-a-secretive-elite-created-the-EU-to-build-a-world-government.html



Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on June 28, 2016, 10:27:37 PM
What is fast developing as a matter of concern to me is the type of out that we are about to get. As I see it , we may be offered 1) just a bit out - we didn't really mean it, 2) not really out - give us all the perks, 3) please don't let us leave - find a way to stop it, and 4) ever so sorry - we didn't mean it and it's time for us to adopt the euro.

I voted for out. Out means out. we really need to sever all ties and start again. It will soon become clear which matters are of mutual benefit to us and the Eu, and where it is not obvious, we need to take a step back and look at our global position. Whatever the future, I am convinced that the politicians are planning to sell us down the river, and I fear that the river may be the Styx.

It really depends on the new PM, and what deal he/she gets from the EU. Jeremy Hunt has already intimated today he will seek to retain freedom of movement within the EEA. Boris, after his shambles of a column yesterday in which he suggested he could retain EEA membership AND bring in a points system (impossible) has today backtracked and said, no, he will definitely curtail freedom of movement. This will mean quitting the single market, which means we'll need to negotiate a separate trade deal with the EU. It is evident that this will be nowhere near as good as the deal we have now, but we will at least be free to then negotiate trade deals with non-EU countries as a sovereign nation. These normally take at least five years, so once you've factored in the two year negotiation period when we'll still be part of the EU, the earliest we will start experiencing the full benefits - if there are any - of the freedom Brexit affords us will be sometime after 2023. I'd say a more realistic target is 2025 and beyond.

I don't think there's any way in which we will leave the Common market - it would be complete economic meltdown. Any Tory PM will surely listen to the City which will be holding a gun to his or her head.

There probably is scope for the 'Norway plus' deal - with some very minor restrictions on freedom of movement. But that's still essentially a crap version of EU membership. To be honest, I think the next PM and the EU will probably end up hammering a deal which keeps us in. The EU has a history of second referendums, and both sides have a huge amount to gain compared to the current state of the world. The EU will need to weigh up the fact that striking such a deal might encourage flouncing by other countries - but that not striking one means losing their strongest military power and 2nd largest economy. I think the latter concern might win out. Maybe I'm being deliriously optimistic because the alternative is so hopeless...

These articles in the FT (https://next.ft.com/content/8f2aca88-3c51-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a) and Indie  (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-wont-really-happen-second-referendum-markets-value-housing-pound-a7106996.html) make the argument better than I do.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Fairfax on June 28, 2016, 11:03:18 PM
If we settle for a Norway style deal, then we have wasted our time. That's just a begging bowl. If we are serious we must stand on our own feet. That may be tough for a while , but it will not be the first time that we have stood alone and taken it on the chin. Or maybe the present generation is not made of what it takes.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 29, 2016, 10:24:23 AM
What is fast developing as a matter of concern to me is the type of out that we are about to get. As I see it , we may be offered 1) just a bit out - we didn't really mean it, 2) not really out - give us all the perks, 3) please don't let us leave - find a way to stop it, and 4) ever so sorry - we didn't mean it and it's time for us to adopt the euro.

I voted for out. Out means out. we really need to sever all ties and start again. It will soon become clear which matters are of mutual benefit to us and the Eu, and where it is not obvious, we need to take a step back and look at our global position. Whatever the future, I am convinced that the politicians are planning to sell us down the river, and I fear that the river may be the Styx.

It really depends on the new PM, and what deal he/she gets from the EU. Jeremy Hunt has already intimated today he will seek to retain freedom of movement within the EEA. Boris, after his shambles of a column yesterday in which he suggested he could retain EEA membership AND bring in a points system (impossible) has today backtracked and said, no, he will definitely curtail freedom of movement. This will mean quitting the single market, which means we'll need to negotiate a separate trade deal with the EU. It is evident that this will be nowhere near as good as the deal we have now, but we will at least be free to then negotiate trade deals with non-EU countries as a sovereign nation. These normally take at least five years, so once you've factored in the two year negotiation period when we'll still be part of the EU, the earliest we will start experiencing the full benefits - if there are any - of the freedom Brexit affords us will be sometime after 2023. I'd say a more realistic target is 2025 and beyond.

I don't think there's any way in which we will leave the Common market - it would be complete economic meltdown. Any Tory PM will surely listen to the City which will be holding a gun to his or her head.

There probably is scope for the 'Norway plus' deal - with some very minor restrictions on freedom of movement. But that's still essentially a crap version of EU membership. To be honest, I think the next PM and the EU will probably end up hammering a deal which keeps us in. The EU has a history of second referendums, and both sides have a huge amount to gain compared to the current state of the world. The EU will need to weigh up the fact that striking such a deal might encourage flouncing by other countries - but that not striking one means losing their strongest military power and 2nd largest economy. I think the latter concern might win out. Maybe I'm being deliriously optimistic because the alternative is so hopeless...

These articles in the FT (https://next.ft.com/content/8f2aca88-3c51-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a) and Indie  (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-wont-really-happen-second-referendum-markets-value-housing-pound-a7106996.html) make the argument better than I do.

Adam .
A reminder that you have overlooked responding to  my question to you on a previous post .

My questions on previous posts requesting you to elaborate on your Brexit effect comments on pensionsers.
Also your suggestion on state pension cut,  how do you suggest this is done and on what scale .?

Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on June 29, 2016, 11:06:25 AM
What is fast developing as a matter of concern to me is the type of out that we are about to get. As I see it , we may be offered 1) just a bit out - we didn't really mean it, 2) not really out - give us all the perks, 3) please don't let us leave - find a way to stop it, and 4) ever so sorry - we didn't mean it and it's time for us to adopt the euro.

I voted for out. Out means out. we really need to sever all ties and start again. It will soon become clear which matters are of mutual benefit to us and the Eu, and where it is not obvious, we need to take a step back and look at our global position. Whatever the future, I am convinced that the politicians are planning to sell us down the river, and I fear that the river may be the Styx.

It really depends on the new PM, and what deal he/she gets from the EU. Jeremy Hunt has already intimated today he will seek to retain freedom of movement within the EEA. Boris, after his shambles of a column yesterday in which he suggested he could retain EEA membership AND bring in a points system (impossible) has today backtracked and said, no, he will definitely curtail freedom of movement. This will mean quitting the single market, which means we'll need to negotiate a separate trade deal with the EU. It is evident that this will be nowhere near as good as the deal we have now, but we will at least be free to then negotiate trade deals with non-EU countries as a sovereign nation. These normally take at least five years, so once you've factored in the two year negotiation period when we'll still be part of the EU, the earliest we will start experiencing the full benefits - if there are any - of the freedom Brexit affords us will be sometime after 2023. I'd say a more realistic target is 2025 and beyond.

I don't think there's any way in which we will leave the Common market - it would be complete economic meltdown. Any Tory PM will surely listen to the City which will be holding a gun to his or her head.

There probably is scope for the 'Norway plus' deal - with some very minor restrictions on freedom of movement. But that's still essentially a crap version of EU membership. To be honest, I think the next PM and the EU will probably end up hammering a deal which keeps us in. The EU has a history of second referendums, and both sides have a huge amount to gain compared to the current state of the world. The EU will need to weigh up the fact that striking such a deal might encourage flouncing by other countries - but that not striking one means losing their strongest military power and 2nd largest economy. I think the latter concern might win out. Maybe I'm being deliriously optimistic because the alternative is so hopeless...

These articles in the FT (https://next.ft.com/content/8f2aca88-3c51-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a) and Indie  (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-wont-really-happen-second-referendum-markets-value-housing-pound-a7106996.html) make the argument better than I do.

Adam .
A reminder that you have overlooked responding to  my question to you on a previous post .

My questions on previous posts requesting you to elaborate on your Brexit effect comments on pensionsers.
Also your suggestion on state pension cut,  how do you suggest this is done and on what scale .?

Recessions don't affect pensioners in the same way because you can't be made redundant from an annuity.

I'm not sure - much like the average Brexiteer I haven't thought the idea through very much. How about in proportion to how much HMRC's tax receipts fall in the recession we're about to see? So if the tax take falls 5%, pensions fall 5%. Fair?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Tash on June 29, 2016, 11:45:03 AM
What is fast developing as a matter of concern to me is the type of out that we are about to get. As I see it , we may be offered 1) just a bit out - we didn't really mean it, 2) not really out - give us all the perks, 3) please don't let us leave - find a way to stop it, and 4) ever so sorry - we didn't mean it and it's time for us to adopt the euro.

I voted for out. Out means out. we really need to sever all ties and start again. It will soon become clear which matters are of mutual benefit to us and the Eu, and where it is not obvious, we need to take a step back and look at our global position. Whatever the future, I am convinced that the politicians are planning to sell us down the river, and I fear that the river may be the Styx.

It really depends on the new PM, and what deal he/she gets from the EU. Jeremy Hunt has already intimated today he will seek to retain freedom of movement within the EEA. Boris, after his shambles of a column yesterday in which he suggested he could retain EEA membership AND bring in a points system (impossible) has today backtracked and said, no, he will definitely curtail freedom of movement. This will mean quitting the single market, which means we'll need to negotiate a separate trade deal with the EU. It is evident that this will be nowhere near as good as the deal we have now, but we will at least be free to then negotiate trade deals with non-EU countries as a sovereign nation. These normally take at least five years, so once you've factored in the two year negotiation period when we'll still be part of the EU, the earliest we will start experiencing the full benefits - if there are any - of the freedom Brexit affords us will be sometime after 2023. I'd say a more realistic target is 2025 and beyond.

I don't think there's any way in which we will leave the Common market - it would be complete economic meltdown. Any Tory PM will surely listen to the City which will be holding a gun to his or her head.

There probably is scope for the 'Norway plus' deal - with some very minor restrictions on freedom of movement. But that's still essentially a crap version of EU membership. To be honest, I think the next PM and the EU will probably end up hammering a deal which keeps us in. The EU has a history of second referendums, and both sides have a huge amount to gain compared to the current state of the world. The EU will need to weigh up the fact that striking such a deal might encourage flouncing by other countries - but that not striking one means losing their strongest military power and 2nd largest economy. I think the latter concern might win out. Maybe I'm being deliriously optimistic because the alternative is so hopeless...

These articles in the FT (https://next.ft.com/content/8f2aca88-3c51-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a) and Indie  (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-wont-really-happen-second-referendum-markets-value-housing-pound-a7106996.html) make the argument better than I do.

Adam .
A reminder that you have overlooked responding to  my question to you on a previous post .

My questions on previous posts requesting you to elaborate on your Brexit effect comments on pensionsers.
Also your suggestion on state pension cut,  how do you suggest this is done and on what scale .?

Recessions don't affect pensioners in the same way because you can't be made redundant from an annuity.

I'm not sure - much like the average Brexiteer I haven't thought the idea through very much. How about in proportion to how much HMRC's tax receipts fall in the recession we're about to see? So if the tax take falls 5%, pensions fall 5%. Fair?

Yes it's fair if it is done across the board 5% cut for all, including Bankers, Politicians, students, ordinary working families and people on benefits.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on June 29, 2016, 12:26:30 PM
If we settle for a Norway style deal, then we have wasted our time. That's just a begging bowl. If we are serious we must stand on our own feet. That may be tough for a while , but it will not be the first time that we have stood alone and taken it on the chin. Or maybe the present generation is not made of what it takes.

Yes, we will have wasted our time. That's why people who supported remain but accept the democratic will of the people (like me) are still bloody furious.

Look, it's quite simple: if we remain in the EEA with minor concessions on free movement, we'll basically be back to exactly where we were this time last week when we had a deal to stop EU nationals claiming benefits until they'd worked here for four years. That deal is immediately void, by the way, so unskilled migrants can move over tomorrow and fill their boots for the next two and a bit years while we're still in the EU.

There's a decent chance no concessions will be granted, so we'll have to quit the EEA to avoid a democratic crisis and the ensuing civil unrest.

If we quit the EEA, we then have to negotiate a trade deal with the single market - which trades as a whole bloc, remember - and those terms will not be as good as those we enjoy now. I'm still hopeful a cordial agreement can be reached to minimise how bad the terms are, but they will still be poorer than now.

I'm still baffled as to why anyone thinks any of this is a good idea, but hey ho - we are where we are. Let's try and make the best of this absolute bloody shambles and hope the next PM is able to assemble a VERY good negotiating team. Is David Newton available?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 29, 2016, 12:30:08 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 29, 2016, 12:58:12 PM
As I have pointed before, long term inward investment is the big worry. This article discusses the Nissain plant in Sunderland which I mentioned in a previous post. Working in this industry I know how competitive investment in the manufacturing sector is. Many large multinationals would be only to happy to move their manufacturing facilities into other low wage areas within the EU in the long term. It can be a real battle to get them to invest in the UK sometimes.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/900d015a-3ba2-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a.html#axzz4Cy6ARVec
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on June 29, 2016, 05:56:46 PM
The Sunderland vote was a real big surprise. ...
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 29, 2016, 08:48:11 PM
What is fast developing as a matter of concern to me is the type of out that we are about to get. As I see it , we may be offered 1) just a bit out - we didn't really mean it, 2) not really out - give us all the perks, 3) please don't let us leave - find a way to stop it, and 4) ever so sorry - we didn't mean it and it's time for us to adopt the euro.

I voted for out. Out means out. we really need to sever all ties and start again. It will soon become clear which matters are of mutual benefit to us and the Eu, and where it is not obvious, we need to take a step back and look at our global position. Whatever the future, I am convinced that the politicians are planning to sell us down the river, and I fear that the river may be the Styx.

It really depends on the new PM, and what deal he/she gets from the EU. Jeremy Hunt has already intimated today he will seek to retain freedom of movement within the EEA. Boris, after his shambles of a column yesterday in which he suggested he could retain EEA membership AND bring in a points system (impossible) has today backtracked and said, no, he will definitely curtail freedom of movement. This will mean quitting the single market, which means we'll need to negotiate a separate trade deal with the EU. It is evident that this will be nowhere near as good as the deal we have now, but we will at least be free to then negotiate trade deals with non-EU countries as a sovereign nation. These normally take at least five years, so once you've factored in the two year negotiation period when we'll still be part of the EU, the earliest we will start experiencing the full benefits - if there are any - of the freedom Brexit affords us will be sometime after 2023. I'd say a more realistic target is 2025 and beyond.

I don't think there's any way in which we will leave the Common market - it would be complete economic meltdown. Any Tory PM will surely listen to the City which will be holding a gun to his or her head.

There probably is scope for the 'Norway plus' deal - with some very minor restrictions on freedom of movement. But that's still essentially a crap version of EU membership. To be honest, I think the next PM and the EU will probably end up hammering a deal which keeps us in. The EU has a history of second referendums, and both sides have a huge amount to gain compared to the current state of the world. The EU will need to weigh up the fact that striking such a deal might encourage flouncing by other countries - but that not striking one means losing their strongest military power and 2nd largest economy. I think the latter concern might win out. Maybe I'm being deliriously optimistic because the alternative is so hopeless...

These articles in the FT (https://next.ft.com/content/8f2aca88-3c51-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a) and Indie  (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-wont-really-happen-second-referendum-markets-value-housing-pound-a7106996.html) make the argument better than I do.

Adam .
A reminder that you have overlooked responding to  my question to you on a previous post .

My questions on previous posts requesting you to elaborate on your Brexit effect comments on pensionsers.
Also your suggestion on state pension cut,  how do you suggest this is done and on what scale .?

Recessions don't affect pensioners in the same way because you can't be made redundant from an annuity.

I'm not sure - much like the average Brexiteer I haven't thought the idea through very much. How about in proportion to how much HMRC's tax receipts fall in the recession we're about to see? So if the tax take falls 5%, pensions fall 5%. Fair?

Thats why I asked for a response Adam ,  to me it was apparent this was the case .
Does than mean you have not though any of your statements through ?

Without stopping to think I can give a definitive response to your replies ,

1  . If Stephen Crapp becomes PM you will not get a call from Works and Pensions to replace him .

2   Lets get building more food banks ready for the pensioners .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 30, 2016, 11:42:26 AM
Knock on door last night , neighbour with prezzies back from their fortnights holiday .

Temp 35 c in Lithuania !!!!  .  Anyone tried Lithuanian chocolate ?

Think they fixed the holiday at a great time .

When asked what was their take on the Brexit vote response was a relaxed " nothing will change "   . 

No self inflicted stress like us posters on this thread

Dipohdoh has a lot to answer for  ???   
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on June 30, 2016, 02:28:06 PM
For those of you who like a conspiracy theory....this is a biggy!

Kalergi theory
Makes the Kennedy one look like child's play
Throw in the fact we are being sprayed by planes. ...we're doomed (this is another conspiracy theory)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 30, 2016, 09:02:59 PM
For those of you who like a conspiracy theory....this is a biggy!

Kalergi theory
Makes the Kennedy one look like child's play
Throw in the fact we are being sprayed by planes. ...we're doomed (this is another conspiracy theory)

I love a good conspiracy theory :dan
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 30, 2016, 10:21:28 PM
For those of you who like a conspiracy theory....this is a biggy!

Kalergi theory
Makes the Kennedy one look like child's play
Throw in the fact we are being sprayed by planes. ...we're doomed (this is another conspiracy theory)

I love a good conspiracy theory :dan

Agenda 21?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Steviemas on July 01, 2016, 11:03:12 AM
Looking at the kalergi plan and the way the monstrosity that is the eu is being run, conspiracy theory or not they seem to be implementing the plan pretty well. (Well that is until we Brits came along and put a serious dent into it), know wonder Junker and co are fuming.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on July 01, 2016, 01:14:22 PM
Confirmed today by the leading candidates for the Tory leadership that they won't trigger article 50 this year, so the very earliest we could be out of the EU is 2019.

Until then, it's business as usual (well, ish)...
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on July 01, 2016, 06:52:30 PM
Pete....
What do you think might be a good outcome?
Here's a wild one..can't see it happening...but what if T May gets the gig and we stay in till 2019.
In the interim the eu thing is renegotiated (it becomes a Common Market again..nothing more)
We then have a second referendum and decide to stay in.....
Happy clapper eurostyle :)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on July 02, 2016, 10:55:38 AM
Pete....
What do you think might be a good outcome?
Here's a wild one..can't see it happening...but what if T May gets the gig and we stay in till 2019.
In the interim the eu thing is renegotiated (it becomes a Common Market again..nothing more)
We then have a second referendum and decide to stay in.....
Happy clapper eurostyle :)

Well, the way things have gone over the last week I don't think you can count anything out!

However, if I had to guess right now, I suspect there'll be some kind of compromise reached that fails to fully satisfy either side: my guess is we'll be out the EU as the referendum result dictates, but remain in the single market with SOME curtailment of freedom of movement (but not the full lock-down of our borders many were voting for). I think only now, as people start to look at just how integrated we are with Europe, are we beginning to realise a full "Brexit" isn't technically achievable. Instead, there are simply varying levels of 'uncoupling' available.

And because of that, I simply don't believe a word Gove says. While I do think the Tories will make efforts to stop completely free movement, this absolute nonsense about an Australian points system will NEVER happen, mainly because it will be prohibitively expensive to administer.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on July 02, 2016, 02:53:08 PM
Pete....
What do you think might be a good outcome?
Here's a wild one..can't see it happening...but what if T May gets the gig and we stay in till 2019.
In the interim the eu thing is renegotiated (it becomes a Common Market again..nothing more)
We then have a second referendum and decide to stay in.....
Happy clapper eurostyle :)

Well, the way things have gone over the last week I don't think you can count anything out!

However, if I had to guess right now, I suspect there'll be some kind of compromise reached that fails to fully satisfy either side: my guess is we'll be out the EU as the referendum result dictates, but remain in the single market with SOME curtailment of freedom of movement (but not the full lock-down of our borders many were voting for). I think only now, as people start to look at just how integrated we are with Europe, are we beginning to realise a full "Brexit" isn't technically achievable. Instead, there are simply varying levels of 'uncoupling' available.

And because of that, I simply don't believe a word Gove says. While I do think the Tories will make efforts to stop completely free movement, this absolute nonsense about an Australian points system will NEVER happen, mainly because it will be prohibitively expensive to administer.

I think thats the best assessment as we have had on here .

Ultimately both EU and the UK will claim to be the winners in an attempt save face .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on July 05, 2016, 10:07:43 AM
Nigel has gone, job done.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on July 06, 2016, 09:34:49 PM
Mishcon de Reya are set to mount a legal challenge to prevent Article 50 being invoked without a vote in parliament, looks like we will have to fight for our Brexit  ???
We had a Senior Civil Servant visiting us last weekend and she confirmed my suspicions that this was always supposed to be an in/in referendum.  No plans were made for a leave vote, so they are playing catch up now and it is 'chaotic'.
Apparently one plan is to delay Article 50 as long as possible in the hope that, in the meantime, the economy bombs to such an extent that the general public are begging to reverse the vote. Mark Carney will be making regular reports to aid in this process, and expect the threatened 'emergency budget' to reappear on the agenda before the years end.
If all this is successful then it will be put to the vote in parliament.

Theresa May might be saying that Brexit means Brexit, but she knows what is going on.  Politically she is expendable if it all goes tits up, so she is just doing a job, possibly the only contingency plan that they put in place, and one made much easier once Boris was out of the running.  :police:


Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on July 07, 2016, 02:24:52 PM
Talking to a shrewd old business man ( true blue ) before the vote.  He told me that even if the brexit vote wins, we will still be in the EU.  He said we will go back renegotiate and a new deal put to the people. >:(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on July 11, 2016, 07:21:39 PM
May now PM, we are doomed ???
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on July 12, 2016, 09:23:13 AM
Well after all the doom and gloom of Brexit yesterday's FT index finished on an eleven month high.  Explain that ???
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on July 12, 2016, 09:46:48 AM
That's because of the weak pound, apparently. There are a few articles floating about that explain the relationship.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Mickey Nuttells Hair on July 12, 2016, 10:18:20 AM
Well after all the doom and gloom of Brexit yesterday's FT index finished on an eleven month high.  Explain that ???

Speculation on an interest rate cut, plus back in February it dropped significantly as fears over the Chinese economy surfaced so its position is better to be reviewed over a greater period of time.

From a personal perspective I have seen all UK based roles either pulled or moved (which is also reflected in the wider market; http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-job-vacancies-fall-700000-in-the-week-after-brexit-data-shows-a7124686.html) for the company I work for, not ideal when I'm facing possible redundancy - directly linked to the Oil/Gas downturn and also pushing manufacturing to either Germany, Italy, Brazil or Asia off the back of Brexit fears, long before the actual vote.

Over 2,000 engineers (highly skilled professionals) down to 1,200 at the Leeds plant in the last 18 months, expected now to drop to 800 by the end of the year.  Giving those guys a Union flag and saying 'we have our country back' does not really cheer them up. No idea why.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: qwerty on July 12, 2016, 10:41:40 AM
Well after all the doom and gloom of Brexit yesterday's FT index finished on an eleven month high.  Explain that ???

Because 'Helicopter Money' is coming.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on July 12, 2016, 12:25:54 PM
Well after all the doom and gloom of Brexit yesterday's FT index finished on an eleven month high.  Explain that ???

Because 'Helicopter Money' is coming.

Do I get any? ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: qwerty on July 12, 2016, 04:56:39 PM
Well after all the doom and gloom of Brexit yesterday's FT index finished on an eleven month high.  Explain that ???

Because 'Helicopter Money' is coming.

Do I get any? ;)

I guess it'll be distributed as a tax rebate to everybody at first. It'll be happening in Japan before the end of the year, we'll only be a year or so behind. While this as nothing to do with Brexit, it's the reason the stock market is rising.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on July 14, 2016, 11:19:59 PM
I'm beginning to like our new PM.  She's only been in the job a few hours and she's already got rid of DECC and set up the holy Brexit Trinity of Davies, Fox, and Boris, as well as sacking Osbourne and Gove...a decent start  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on July 15, 2016, 05:11:02 PM
I'm beginning to like our new PM.  She's only been in the job a few hours and she's already got rid of DECC and set up the holy Brexit Trinity of Davies, Fox, and Boris, as well as sacking Osbourne and Gove...a decent start  :police:

Too much like Thatcher for my liking, but let's give her a chance, she is making all the right noises. ;D
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on July 24, 2016, 09:26:49 AM
Got to feel sorry for all the families stuck in traffic trying to get to France.

French Border control stopping and searching most cars.

Is this a sign of things to come?  I know the same happens between Spain and Gibraltar and that is with an open border policy.

Or is it a knee jerk reaction to what's happened in Nice and Germany?

But stuck on a motorway for nearly two days with a couple of kids in sweltering heat does not sound like fun to me.

Play safe and holiday at Skeg, I say. :bunny
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on August 05, 2016, 03:53:30 PM
I see the base rate is now 0.25%.

Economy is slowing down post Brexit,

Waiting now for qwerty's helicopter money ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on August 25, 2016, 08:59:07 PM
Pre Brexit vote REMAIN prediction, Sky high unemployment, Shares on London stock exchange CRASH, The pound, massive devaluation against major currencies. Sky high inflation and companies leaving Britain in droves.

Two months further on, in reality:

Unemployment at it's lowest level in 8 years.

Shares at their highest level in 18 months.

The Pound down, but only 10% against the Euro ( meaning cheaper and more competitive exports )

Inflation at 0.26% ( Sky high ? )

Name a major Company that has left GB?

Now we want to stop pussy footing about, and follow the peoples directive and LEAVE.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Mickey Nuttells Hair on August 26, 2016, 11:09:11 AM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on August 26, 2016, 01:17:11 PM
Quote from: Dipdodah link=topic=6248.msg88865#msg88865

Now we want to stop pussy footing about, and follow the peoples directive and LEAVE.
[/quote

Seconded, GTFO!  :dan
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on August 26, 2016, 04:08:39 PM
I'm fecked right off with the resignation of those who should be holding Leave promoters to account, I'm fecked right off with the 'you can't blame Brexit' rubbish from the same people that blame getting a runny nose on the EU, I'm fecked right off that my kids will have LESS choice and opportunity in the world than I did to work/live as they grow up and I'm proper fecked off with the seeming collapse of any competent political system.


I appreciate your worries MNH and being made redundant is never good.
I worked for a Queens award to industry for export a few years ago...when I got made redundant.
We were in Common Market then.
we have to ask ourselves is "how much longer could we support a collapsing regime"?
Spain, Ireland, Greece and France now with severe fiscal problems.
How can nations become effectively bankrupt.
The answer has been "quantative easing" ...basically lets print more money and use it to paper over the cracks
Even those on the left and right in France are saying what a brave and correct choice we made.
as for kids having choice....what choice do we have who is in the commission/parliament?
I fear your kids would have even less.....
As for competent political system....hmmm ;)

I do hope you find employment sooner rather than later.
Apparently employment now is higher than pre brexit...winners and losers in all political decisions..

As for racial abuse ..terrible....just losers who feel they have a voice.
Tbh this has been my only downside of it all
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Mickey Nuttells Hair on August 26, 2016, 07:56:29 PM
we have to ask ourselves is "how much longer could we support a collapsing regime"?

No we don't, we have to ask ourselves why we have done something to ourselves with no plan of what to do next. There is no plan. At all.  Which is the single reason for the economic and trade problems we now face, it's farcical and frightening. But yeah let's just tut at a bit of abuse and crack on with all this 'control' we now have. Great work everyone.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on August 27, 2016, 10:08:14 AM
Now we want to stop pussy footing about, and follow the peoples directive and LEAVE.

Do you have even the remotest idea how long and how complicated the job of leaving the EU actually is?

Also, do you know what you mean by 'leave'? There are many different interpretations. What's yours? Hard Brexit? Soft? What trade deal do you want? Free movement controls? Financial passporting?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on August 27, 2016, 10:57:56 AM


Now we want to stop pussy footing about, and follow the peoples directive and LEAVE.

A50 to be signed in the first quarter of 2017 according to the Guardian.  Theresa May just wants to get on with it apparently as ' Brexit means Brexit,'  8)
If the plan is good enough for the new PM then its good enough for me.
Cameron had no plan and arrogantly assumed he could frighten us into his way of thinking.  He even instructed the Civil Service not to plan for Brexit. Gross negligence and professional negligence from someone in charge of a country.
Him and Osbourne should be banged up in the Tower instead of relaxing on a beach somewhere working out what honours to bestow upon their entourage of obsequious klingons  :dan
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on August 27, 2016, 01:08:21 PM
I suppose the crime of 'asleep in charge of a country' carries no penalty for an ex- Etonian Tory boy.  Problem is that there is no credible opposition at the moment, so May could go to the country with a watered down version of Brexit and get it through.
I'll only believe we are leaving the EU when we are actually out, and the sooner the better IMO  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on August 27, 2016, 01:22:49 PM
I suppose the crime of 'asleep in charge of a country' carries no penalty for an ex- Etonian Tory boy.  Problem is that there is no credible opposition at the moment, so May could go to the country with a watered down version of Brexit and get it through.
I'll only believe we are leaving the EU when we are actually out, and the sooner the better IMO  :police:

Totally agree, I know who has more to lose.  Our yearly contribution will sorely be missed.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on September 09, 2016, 09:12:31 PM
Reports suggest that anti-brexit protesters have raised funds to purchase 5000 EU flags to display during the Last night of the PROMS tomorrow evening , which marks the end of this years BBC promenade season .
The 6000 cosmopolitan audience go to these events for one reason only ,  to enjoy great music  composed by worldwide composers and played by British and foreign musicians and enjoyed by millions of viewers worldwide .

If these people have a link however tenuous to the official anti-brexit campaigners shame on them .

They will be observed with dismay and disgust by a worldwide audience of millions .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Fairfax on September 10, 2016, 01:09:35 AM
Never mind the flags. As at no time in many years, the message is in the music. We have built Jerusalem in England's green and pleasant land.

That which God has ordained, let no man put asunder.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on September 10, 2016, 10:39:11 AM
There were some excellent concerts, the end to a great season  8)
Went to Battle Proms a couple of years ago. No star spangled EU flags there...bit late to start waving them when we're on the way out, nothing wrong with a bit of nostalgia I suppose  :dan
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on September 30, 2016, 09:01:00 AM
Who saw Question Time last night?

Was it me, or did most of the people asking the questions have a cockney accent?

Only recognised about two people.

Where were any representation of the local migrant community?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on September 30, 2016, 11:18:52 AM
Who saw Question Time last night?

Was it me, or did most of the people asking the questions have a cockney accent?

Only recognised about two people.

Where were any representation of the local migrant community?

You should have known better than watched it Dip after the way the BBC stitched us up last year  :dan  .  Yes I watched it as well , you make valid points .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: kingofnaves on September 30, 2016, 07:53:10 PM
Did they ever answer the Syrian Refugee question?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: The Third Twin on September 30, 2016, 09:43:43 PM
Did they ever answer the Syrian Refugee question?
I didn't hear them give an answer to it. They were far to busy reminiscing about Don Revie's Leeds team of the 70's. I've never yet seen a politician who answers the question they are actually asked. They are, however, very good at waffling for long enough for us to forget the actual question, and they are very good at answering the question they WANTED to be asked, but weren't.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on September 30, 2016, 10:13:30 PM
 Rod Liddle was excellent on Diane Abbot and the London based lefties, very eloquent   :dan
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: dubai camel on October 01, 2016, 06:33:27 PM
Oh the irony of Sunderland voting over 60% to exit Europe, and the biggest employer already voicing genuine concerns about being in a post Europe Britain and trying to export back into Europe with the likelihood of at least a 10% tariff.

Unintended consequence might be lower immigration, as the increasing unemployed Brits means Britain won't have to rely on immigrants to fill vacancies  :bunny
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on October 01, 2016, 06:53:03 PM
Oh the irony of Sunderland voting over 60% to exit Europe, and the biggest employer already voicing genuine concerns about being in a post Europe Britain and trying to export back into Europe with the likelihood of at least a 10% tariff.

Unintended consequence might be lower immigration, as the increasing unemployed Brits means Britain won't have to rely on immigrants to fill vacancies  :bunny

Is it "genuine concerns" or more likely the posturing you would expect a world class firm to adopt when doing a deal ?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: dubai camel on October 01, 2016, 07:00:38 PM
Oh the irony of Sunderland voting over 60% to exit Europe, and the biggest employer already voicing genuine concerns about being in a post Europe Britain and trying to export back into Europe with the likelihood of at least a 10% tariff.

Unintended consequence might be lower immigration, as the increasing unemployed Brits means Britain won't have to rely on immigrants to fill vacancies  :bunny

Is it "genuine concerns" or more likely the posturing you would expect a world class firm to adopt when doing a deal ?

At this stage it is likely to involve some posturing but they based themselves in the European free trade market, that will change and therefore their business model is somewhat altered - a tariff was not in their original plans.
Was at BMW in Oxford last week, with 80% of their production for export they face a similar dilemma.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on October 01, 2016, 07:09:51 PM
Oh the irony of Sunderland voting over 60% to exit Europe, and the biggest employer already voicing genuine concerns about being in a post Europe Britain and trying to export back into Europe with the likelihood of at least a 10% tariff.

Unintended consequence might be lower immigration, as the increasing unemployed Brits means Britain won't have to rely on immigrants to fill vacancies  :bunny

Is it "genuine concerns" or more likely the posturing you would expect a world class firm to adopt when doing a deal ?

At this stage it is likely to involve some posturing but they based themselves in the European free trade market, that will change and therefore their business model is somewhat altered - a tariff was not in their original plans.
Was at BMW in Oxford last week, with 80% of their production for export they face a similar dilemma.

Would,nt worry d c ,  we don,t want to lose them and they don,t want to lose us .
Sure they will conclude a deal like business and politicians do,  dress up for both sides to claim to be the winners .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: father Ted on October 01, 2016, 08:23:12 PM
Ah . . Hunter Madeley Charlton Reaney 
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on October 02, 2016, 08:37:06 AM
The Great Repeal Bill to be announced today allegedly.
 It will repeal the 1972 European Communities Act allowing us to regain British Sovereignty  8)
Brexit is starting to really mean Brexit, although they still have to get it through parliament, and Herr Juncker and Co will probably challenge its legality  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on October 02, 2016, 11:00:05 AM
Article 50 invoked before the end of March 2017  8)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on October 02, 2016, 02:06:09 PM
Rubbish timing for us - German elections next year. Not much meaningful can be decided in 2017 with those going on, so I would expect the immediate negotiations to be that the negotiations can go on longer than two years.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on October 02, 2016, 09:40:49 PM
As long as it is not April 1st ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: qwerty on October 03, 2016, 04:40:02 PM
From William Hill:-

Brexit in 2019 1/6
Before that 13/2
Not before 2020 13/2
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on October 12, 2016, 01:50:50 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on October 12, 2016, 02:20:34 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on October 12, 2016, 02:34:40 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ferret on October 12, 2016, 02:35:20 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Cavalier on October 12, 2016, 02:39:14 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on October 12, 2016, 07:46:10 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: qwerty on October 12, 2016, 08:53:35 PM
(i was told today from a couple of wholesalers that prices may rise by up to 20% in my game (non food)...most of what we use is from USA or Far East)

Inflations part of your game I thought.....
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on October 13, 2016, 08:41:27 AM
I wonder what inflation would have to hit before a clear majority of people think this is a very bad idea? More than 5% but less than 10%, I reckon.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on October 13, 2016, 10:23:47 AM
Judicial Review Permission Hearing today, requesting permission for a JR of the decision to invoke Article 50 without a vote in the Commons.
If permission is granted we can forget Theresa May's end of March 2017 deadline for signing A50, unless they are able to fast-track the process  which seems unlikely. :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Old Pilgrim on October 13, 2016, 03:15:19 PM
But would anyone have supported a JR if the answer had been the other way?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Mickey Nuttells Hair on October 13, 2016, 03:42:36 PM
But would anyone have supported a JR if the answer had been the other way?

This is exactly why I find discussing the entire subject now pointless. 

There would not have been a JR as we would not have been looking to invoke A50 as we would have voted remain!

THE POINT of the JR is not to stop leaving, thats done - decided - literally nobody is saying change it.  The issue, the JR, is to stop a quick reactionary exit which is ill thought out and not properly considered.  IF the PMs plan (and its not even the governments or the ministers plan as non of them agree) is so good why can it not be debated, voted on, in the commons. 
WE HAVE TAKEN BACK CONTROL remember, let's use it  ;)  :dan
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on October 13, 2016, 08:59:59 PM
But would anyone have supported a JR if the answer had been the other way?

This is exactly why I find discussing the entire subject now pointless. 


It's pointless but I'm still doing it.

This whole Brexit debate reminds me of a clip I saw earlier of a Donald Trump supporter being interviewed by CNN:

Trump Fan: Obama, well, he never showed his birth certificate. He should show his birth certificate.
CNN: He did.
Trump Fan: Nooo.... [SMILES AND SHAKES HEAD]

Hear a fact.

Decide you don't like fact.

Deny fact.

It's happening more and more. No matter how many times Brexiters are told nobody (well, some are, but they can't be taken seriously) is seeking to overturn the EU vote, they just carry on claiming the demands for a vote on the terms of the exit are demands to overturn the vote. You can't reason with such wilful and deliberate delusion, and yet I try... and try...

Leave won. Well done. We are leaving Europe. Everyone accepts it.

What we will not accept are the specific terms of that exit being determined without proper Parliamentary scrutiny. That's only right, and only fair, because the stakes are simply too high. And anyone saying, "who cares, let's leave now" - just please go away and educate yourself about the real world, because you're making things ten times worse.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on October 14, 2016, 09:36:41 AM
But would anyone have supported a JR if the answer had been the other way?

This is exactly why I find discussing the entire subject now pointless. 


It's pointless but I'm still doing it.

This whole Brexit debate reminds me of a clip I saw earlier of a Donald Trump supporter being interviewed by CNN:

Trump Fan: Obama, well, he never showed his birth certificate. He should show his birth certificate.
CNN: He did.
Trump Fan: Nooo.... [SMILES AND SHAKES HEAD]

Hear a fact.

Decide you don't like fact.

Deny fact.

It's happening more and more. No matter how many times Brexiters are told nobody (well, some are, but they can't be taken seriously) is seeking to overturn the EU vote, they just carry on claiming the demands for a vote on the terms of the exit are demands to overturn the vote. You can't reason with such wilful and deliberate delusion, and yet I try... and try...

Leave won. Well done. We are leaving Europe. Everyone accepts it.

What we will not accept are the specific terms of that exit being determined without proper Parliamentary scrutiny. That's only right, and only fair, because the stakes are simply too high. And anyone saying, "who cares, let's leave now" - just please go away and educate yourself about the real world, because you're making things ten times worse.

I find myself agreeing with you  :o to a certain extent.

People voted to leave, fact. In a democracy the will of the people must be followed,fact.

The people put into power by the masses, have a duty to do what is best for the country and it's people.

That is to get the very best possible deal for the UK.  I know that certain dealings have to be done in private, but MP's have a right and duty to discuss such an important issue in parliament.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on October 14, 2016, 12:07:46 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on October 14, 2016, 12:25:02 PM
I voted brexit in the believe Geo Osbourne must get something right ,
When are we going to get an interest rate rise Geo?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on October 14, 2016, 12:28:11 PM
I voted brexit in the believe Geo Osbourne must get something right ,
When are we going to get an interest rate rise Geo?

I'd guestimate that Brexit has put back an interest rate rise quite a few years... I suppose we could get back to 0.5 in late 2017/2018, if things go spectacularly well.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on October 14, 2016, 12:58:37 PM
I voted brexit in the believe Geo Osbourne must get something right ,
When are we going to get an interest rate rise Geo?

I'd guestimate that Brexit has put back an interest rate rise quite a few years... I suppose we could get back to 0.5 in late 2017/2018, if things go spectacularly well.

So Geo got it all wrong again !!!!   he claimed the interest rate would rise because brexit would be a spectacular  disaster.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Mickey Nuttells Hair on October 14, 2016, 01:40:49 PM
he claimed the interest rate would rise because brexit would be a spectacular  disaster.

'Brexit' hasn't started yet.

And given how badly things have gone since the vote to leave do you really think it won't be worse when it actually starts?  Especially if its a shoot from the hip, reactionary, daily mail pleasing mess its looking to be right now.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Fairfax on October 14, 2016, 04:07:20 PM
An interesting point on JR. Parliament makes the laws; the legislature is there to make sure that the law is applied, interpreting where necessary. The JR is asked to rule on whether there should be a commons vote on enacting article 50. If JR says no vote, then we go ahead, but if it insists on a vote, parliament is entitled to ignore the legislature, by amending the act which JR implies would be contravened, or by passing an entirely new act which overrules the JR decision. The snag is that to pass or amend an act there needs to be a vote in parliament. And round we will go again! To quote Sir Thomas More, I trust that I make myself obscure.

Regarding the debate on whether the government should tell parliament what its exit strategy is, of course you don't show your cards to the opposition (either in parliament of the EU). However, I would have thought that the exit strategy is clear...

    1) Invoke article 50 in full, breaking all ties and agreements which form part of our membership of the EU. (That's what exit means, although it would appear that many wish not to understand this.)

    2) Speedily enact through parliament those things which are under our control so that the status quo continues where we want it to.

    3) Negotiate with the EU about anything that we have lost by leaving so that we achieve the best deals we can. This point can start at any stage and doesn't have to wait for the earlier items. We will win some and lose some, but that's what those of us who voted for exit anticipated (or should have anticipated) anyway. At this point we are out with the best deals that are available.

    4) Negotiate new trade deals with the rest of the World, including the EU as we see fit. At this point the EU will have come to realise that being bloody minded is not suiting their interests and will probably be approaching us to replace the deals that they have denied us, or looking for new deals.

    From this point onwards it is a brave new World and we need to stay one step ahead as we have done throughout history. My only doubt is whether we have the negotiators of the calibre required to achieve this momentous undertaking. History will judge their success or failure.

Per ardua ad astra.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on October 14, 2016, 04:26:50 PM
he claimed the interest rate would rise because brexit would be a spectacular  disaster.

'Brexit' hasn't started yet.

And given how badly things have gone since the vote to leave do you really think it won't be worse when it actually starts?  Especially if its a shoot from the hip, reactionary, daily mail pleasing mess its looking to be right now.
So when will interest rates rise ?  many are getting inpatient,  the promise of higher rates was appealing to many .
Osbourne predict a dramatic change would happen rapidly if an out vote was the outcome .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Mickey Nuttells Hair on October 14, 2016, 08:53:11 PM
You are aware Osbourne is not Chancellor still yeah?

His predictions for what happens on an out vote were in line with the statement that the PM would be invoking A50 the next day, which thankfully even he wasn't stupid enough to do.

So forget any prediction or assumption from either of those two on an out vote, they were designed to shock people into remaining - it didn't work obviously BUT its yet to be proven right or wrong UNTIL the A50 part is started.

Now we have a situation nobody predicted or wanted, vote leave but A50 not started straight away, a new PM/Chancellor/cabinet - with the PM being a Remainer!?!?  So forget what anyone predicted or said would happen, we are in no mans land. 
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on October 14, 2016, 09:28:32 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on October 14, 2016, 09:58:04 PM
I predicted that if vote leave prevailed in the referendum then it would be voted down in parliament.
If they go ahead with the debate, which seems inevitable and constitutionally correct, then the vote will be on the Single Market, in or out, and I can only see that going one way.
So we will have 'left' the EU but still be in the Single Market.
'Out' and In at the same time, but mostly In as that is what big business and the establishment have decreed should happen.
If your vote could make a difference they would never have given it to you in the first place   
 :dan

Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on October 14, 2016, 10:44:50 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on October 14, 2016, 11:07:24 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on October 27, 2016, 10:13:09 PM
Nissan to manufacture three new models at their Sunderland factory post Brexit.

Better than expected figures concerning British finances post Brexit.

Perhaps project fear was just bullsh*t ??? ???
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on October 29, 2016, 08:37:48 AM
Perhaps Nissan were told that we will still be in the Single Market, ie essentially still part of the EU despite the vote to get out...I'm sharpening up my pitchfork this weekend ready for the uprising from the Shires  :dan
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Mickey Nuttells Hair on October 29, 2016, 04:24:14 PM
Nissan to manufacture three new models at their Sunderland factory post Brexit.

Better than expected figures concerning British finances post Brexit.

Perhaps project fear was just bullsh*t ??? ???

Honestly, the naivety of this just shows the mess we are in already and the absolute meltdown ahead when we do eventually leave.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on October 29, 2016, 05:55:23 PM
I guess you are more educated than me mnh and I bow to your greater knowledge. I also guess you are younger than me.
But......
Is the euro stable?
Is the European commission a good idea ?
Is the European Court a good idea?
Is the European Parliament a good idea?
Do you or I have much say in the above?
(We certainly didnt vote for the above when we voted for a Common Market)
Are Italy Spain Greece and Ireland stable financially?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Mickey Nuttells Hair on October 29, 2016, 07:12:25 PM
Again genius, what the actual feck are all all those points about the euro etc? I've said nothing about them. Carry on ignoring he situation, carry on wilfully ignoring the genuine and practical issues raised by the Out vote and complain those asking qeuestiins are traitors or whatever.

Nissan have played the government perfectly and have set up the rest of the automotive industry to now do the same (consessions, subsidies etc.) then you will see the other industries doing the same, because why not? If only there was some sort of European club we cloud be in which protected governments from being held to ransom by globally operating companies.

Also if I am younger what the hell has that got to do with anything? There are more eduducated and more intelligent people younger than me and I'm totally comfortable with it. If you aren't do something about it. Educate yourself.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on October 29, 2016, 07:37:06 PM
I was asking if you think those bodies are good or not basically.
I voted in the 70's but got more than I voted for...does the idea of a European army cheer you??
You still haven't addressed the issue of bankrupt nations and how they will be saved.

It's a good idea that's got out of hand ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: The Big M on October 29, 2016, 07:40:07 PM
Again genius, what the actual feck are all all those points about the euro etc? I've said nothing about them. Carry on ignoring he situation, carry on wilfully ignoring the genuine and practical issues raised by the Out vote and complain those asking qeuestiins are traitors or whatever.

Nissan have played the government perfectly and have set up the rest of the automotive industry to now do the same (consessions, subsidies etc.) then you will see the other industries doing the same, because why not? If only there was some sort of European club we cloud be in which protected governments from being held to ransom by globally operating companies.

Also if I am younger what the hell has that got to do with anything? There are more eduducated and more intelligent people younger than me and I'm totally comfortable with it. If you aren't do something about it. Educate yourself.

Agree or not. It is what it is and we must now get on with it
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on October 29, 2016, 08:00:32 PM
You know how most people in Britain see Donald Trump? As a populist who has no actual credible plans whatsoever, but shouts slogans and is backed by a worryingly high proportion of voters?

That's exactly how the rest of the world sees Brexit.

And appears to have Nissan stayed put because the government has promised to insulate it from the hugely negative effects of Brexit (should we go for the 'hard' variety). The idea that this says something good about Brexit is laughable.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on October 29, 2016, 08:13:44 PM
Again genius, what the actual feck are all all those points about the euro etc? I've said nothing about them. Carry on ignoring he situation, carry on wilfully ignoring the genuine and practical issues raised by the Out vote and complain those asking qeuestiins are traitors or whatever.

Nissan have played the government perfectly and have set up the rest of the automotive industry to now do the same (consessions, subsidies etc.) then you will see the other industries doing the same, because why not? If only there was some sort of European club we cloud be in which protected governments from being held to ransom by globally operating companies.

Also if I am younger what the hell has that got to do with anything? There are more eduducated and more intelligent people younger than me and I'm totally comfortable with it. If you aren't do something about it. Educate yourself.

Agree or not. It is what it is and we must now get on with it

Correct Big M , That's the sentiment we as a democracy  have to accept .

Being given the "facts "(know to us as guess work and lies ) by a ragtag collection of cross party politicians convinces me there is not enough  watertight information to give a trusted conclusion .

A great spin-off from the referendum is the country effectively culled or got rid of some useless  bungling
politicians .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on October 29, 2016, 08:55:34 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: aggy on October 29, 2016, 09:21:51 PM
No need for sympathy for the American people. At least they could repair the damage when they vote again in 4 years time.
As for us.........
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Mickey Nuttells Hair on October 30, 2016, 12:20:09 AM
Adam where did you discover how the rest of the world see Brexit ?  same goes for your information that Nissan may receive special treatment .

No idea for Adam but I can tell you mine. I work (until the 31st of this month) for a global company in a global industry. I talk daily to Indians, Americans, South Americans, Russians and people in Malaysia and Singapore.  They have exactly that view. What have you done, you had the best of both worlds with access to and opt outs of a market worth $19trillion you are crazy.

So yes I do discover how the world sees Brexit, I talk to and work with people who are effected by it. And it's the biggest mistake we have ever been allowed to make. I don't ignore it. I don't dismiss it. I look at the practical questions it raises and ask who has the answers. And they are all yet to be answered so I'll keep on asking thanks.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on October 30, 2016, 01:38:13 PM
Adam where did you discover how the rest of the world see Brexit ?  same goes for your information that Nissan may receive special treatment .

No idea for Adam but I can tell you mine. I work (until the 31st of this month) for a global company in a global industry. I talk daily to Indians, Americans, South Americans, Russians and people in Malaysia and Singapore.  They have exactly that view. What have you done, you had the best of both worlds with access to and opt outs of a market worth $19trillion you are crazy.

So yes I do discover how the world sees Brexit, I talk to and work with people who are effected by it. And it's the biggest mistake we have ever been allowed to make. I don't ignore it. I don't dismiss it. I look at the practical questions it raises and ask who has the answers. And they are all yet to be answered so I'll keep on asking thanks.

Sorry to hear of your loss  of job Micky , with evolution you always get winners and losers , happens to almost everyone in a lifetime . While you have been hit with this set back others  are  already gaining the benefit of post Brexit by gaining work .   Harsh fact is yes it has hit you badly but in time benefits of change will hopefully be your gain .  Pleased you have explained your misfortune which makes it easier to understand your anger .   You don,t mention what industry you are in but I hope if need be you adapt to another line of business .  Keep a positive attitude , hoping you quickly find employment .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Mickey Nuttells Hair on October 30, 2016, 01:45:53 PM
My job loss is not a direct result of Brexit, the closing of the wider plant is though (700+ jobs) as we were taken over earlier in the year and my role is now done outside of the UK.  My only anger is at the ignorance of the issues it's created and the lies that were sold to millions and swallowed (and yes there were lies by both campaigns but only one sides count now!).

What specific benefits of Brexit are there? And more specifically what have you witnessed so far, given it's not actually happened yet we have only felt the effects of the uncertainty the vote created?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on October 30, 2016, 01:46:52 PM
I second that
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on October 30, 2016, 02:40:11 PM
We have much to be grateful for with immigration ,eg doctors , nurses etc
The underlining cause of complaints is governments failure to plan for the influx ,  housing , schools and hospitals .

At various times when chatting to our MP he has expressed joy of a local firm winning awards , others of expanding their workforce .   Sadly I have had to point out this success is due to  very hard working employees (mainly migrants ) being on very low pay .
Many skilled workers are working on rates well below the trade agreements .
Market forces at work ,  workers readily available = lower wages .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: worldwide on October 30, 2016, 02:59:42 PM
I have spoken to several people who voted to leave - and now question their choice at the ballot box.   I wouldn't rule out concessions made to the Government to persuade the UK to remain part of the EU - and as such if a second referendum was held the result would be an overwhelming victory for the remainers.

Theresa May continues to say Brexit means Brexit - but what exactly is Brexit?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on October 30, 2016, 03:37:15 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: worldwide on October 30, 2016, 07:28:39 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: qwerty on October 30, 2016, 09:18:09 PM
Saw five magpies in one tree today.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ken Fox on October 30, 2016, 10:49:30 PM
Saw five magpies in one tree today.

Is this a cryptic message to suggest we should all invest in silver?!

Wikipedia tells me the first known occurrence of magpie song was in a book of Lincolnshire folklore with the lyric:

One for sorrow
Two for mirth
Three for a funeral
And four for birth
Five for heaven
Six for hell
Seven for the devil, his own self

Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on October 31, 2016, 09:15:24 AM
Ken, you have just replied to the SILVER King.  I have took the hint, the Dipdodah millions are being invested as I speak ;) ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Old Pilgrim on October 31, 2016, 09:30:57 AM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 01, 2016, 09:51:25 AM
When we leave the EU, does this mean we will get Duty Free back at the airports?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on November 03, 2016, 10:29:58 AM
Unsurprisingly the court ruling is that parliament has to be consulted before Article 50 is signed, could be that Brexit doesn't really mean Brexit after all 
If it comes down to a parliamentary vote which way will Matty Warnham MP vote  :o  :dan
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 03, 2016, 10:52:51 AM
Unsurprisingly the court ruling is that parliament has to be consulted before Article 50 is signed, could be that Brexit doesn't really mean Brexit after all 
If it comes down to a parliamentary vote which way will Matty Warnham MP vote  :o  :dan

it was obvious and right concerning the ruling.

obviously it will go to the supreme Court on appeal.

What happens if the Commons vote not to follow the will of the people?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on November 03, 2016, 11:02:38 AM
An uprising in the Shires, we're marching to London!  :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan :dan
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Old Pilgrim on November 04, 2016, 09:59:12 AM
Unsurprisingly the court ruling is that parliament has to be consulted before Article 50 is signed, could be that Brexit doesn't really mean Brexit after all 
If it comes down to a parliamentary vote which way will Matty Warnham MP vote  :o  :dan

If he wants to keep his seat surely he'll have to vote the way we voted in the referendum? Or is the  party more important?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on November 04, 2016, 11:03:20 AM
Unsurprisingly the court ruling is that parliament has to be consulted before Article 50 is signed, could be that Brexit doesn't really mean Brexit after all 
If it comes down to a parliamentary vote which way will Matty Warnham MP vote  :o  :dan

Matt is Brexit man now ,   really finding his feet as a politician .  Gone are his days of honesty and transparency .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Imp Stalker on November 04, 2016, 11:51:24 AM
Sleaford and North Hykeham's man has resigned this morning
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on November 04, 2016, 09:58:52 PM
The MP resigned over irreconcilable differences with the government's hard Brexit stance.
The question is does Matty H, MP, favour staying in the Single Market?
If he does he would appear to have irreconcilable differences with 75 % of the people he represents  8)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Fairfax on November 08, 2016, 10:05:04 PM
Isn't it strange that there was no similar vote before Major signed the Maastricht agreement, thereby forcing us into the European Union. So it follows that we are not, and never have been in the EU. Happy days! PS. Can we have our money back?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on November 09, 2016, 07:53:55 AM
Trump wins  :o
Who'd of thought it possible, Brexit and now this in one year!
I wonder if there's going to be calls for a re-run of the vote, or a hard or soft Trump, a half-Trump maybe  :dan :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 09, 2016, 09:50:32 AM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ferret on November 09, 2016, 10:13:02 AM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: qwerty on November 09, 2016, 10:55:03 AM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on November 09, 2016, 10:56:30 AM
The Obama effect didn't work for Hillary or the Remain campaign.
Seems likely that the UK will now be at the front of the queue for a US trade deal,  TTIP is history, and the prospect of a no-fly zone over Syria, leading to a confrontation with Russia, recedes...interesting times  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 09, 2016, 01:33:52 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 09, 2016, 01:37:13 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pilgrim86 on November 09, 2016, 02:26:09 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Imp Stalker on November 09, 2016, 03:03:08 PM
I imagine at the time Trump was 150/1 Brexit was a lively outsider too.

So yeah.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on November 09, 2016, 03:48:34 PM
Isn't it strange that there was no similar vote before Major signed the Maastricht agreement, thereby forcing us into the European Union. So it follows that we are not, and never have been in the EU. Happy days! PS. Can we have our money back?

Ha, I'm sorry, but that's simply not true is it? The Maastricht Treaty spent months going through Parliament.  Some background reading here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_vote_of_confidence_in_the_government_of_John_Major (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_vote_of_confidence_in_the_government_of_John_Major)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Fairfax on November 09, 2016, 10:52:12 PM
The judicial ruling is that parliament must give its assent before Article 50 exit may be started. Although much hot air was expended on Maastricht, the formal discussions were opened by a government that had not at that time the authority of a parliamentary vote to back its action. The discussions commenced under the imposition of the Royal Prerogative which it is now ruled insufficient. Remember that the judgement is about the act of formally starting discussions, not the outcome. I stick by my assertion that by the present ruling we are not legally within the EU.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on February 12, 2017, 01:09:47 PM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on February 17, 2017, 11:48:53 AM
Blair says all remainers must try to convince their leave friends that they have made a mistake ??? ???.  If a mistake has been made and the people have voted wrongly, what difference does telling them make?  Or is Mr Blair trying to distract mounting pressure on him re Iraq?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on February 17, 2017, 12:19:23 PM
I think Tony Blair advocating to stay in the EU will convince those who voted out that they made the right decision .

How did things work out in Iraq ?
How did you do as a middle east peace maker Tony ?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: youngchubby69 on February 17, 2017, 07:53:11 PM
Well said GHM, Blair = Fool.
He obviously has a lot money invested in Europe
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Fairfax on February 18, 2017, 02:34:04 PM
We may be coming out of Europe. but what odds against Lincoln City being in next year? They can still dream.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Burgh Boy on February 18, 2017, 11:06:46 PM
They don't even have to win the FA cup to get into Europe so long as the other finalist is a Champions League qualifiers. I think the chances are more than reasonable as no Premier League club seems interested in this competition and will only get to the final by default and not by determination. Personally, I would like to see a Lincoln v Millwall final - if the draw and results allow!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on February 19, 2017, 10:50:54 AM
They don't even have to win the FA cup to get into Europe so long as the other finalist is a Champions League qualifiers. I think the chances are more than reasonable as no Premier League club seems interested in this competition and will only get to the final by default and not by determination. Personally, I would like to see a Lincoln v Millwall final - if the draw and results allow!

Wow putting it like that, I agree with you.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on March 14, 2017, 10:11:06 AM
The Bill has gone through the House of Lords.  Shame if the Scots vote to leave the union.  With the Scots and London being the main remain voters, I can see London pushing to leave as well ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ken Fox on March 14, 2017, 10:50:50 AM
Can't help thinking the Brexit vote might have killed Boston United! The future of the club is dependent on getting the new ground and the new ground is dependent on the Quadrant Development and without the need for all that extra housing due to the influx of EU workers then the funding for Quadrant must be in doubt. Also inflation is set to kick in now with prices going up by 10-15%, so people will have less money to spend and will have to cut back on something and going to games may be what has to give to get family budgets balanced, so crowds will fall a bit like they did during recent recessions. So a double whammy. :(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on March 14, 2017, 01:01:07 PM
Can't help thinking the Brexit vote might have killed Boston United! The future of the club is dependent on getting the new ground and the new ground is dependent on the Quadrant Development and without the need for all that extra housing due to the influx of EU workers then the funding for Quadrant must be in doubt. Also inflation is set to kick in now with prices going up by 10-15%, so people will have less money to spend and will have to cut back on something and going to games may be what has to give to get family budgets balanced, so crowds will fall a bit like they did during recent recessions. So a double whammy. :(

Nah, it's fine Ken. We're selling jam to New Zealand as of 2019 so there's absolutely nothing to worry about. A glorious future awaits us all!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on March 14, 2017, 01:22:02 PM
Have faith in this country Pete.

The EU is broken and more countries will follow Britain out.

Things may be rough for a start, But I for one would rather be independent than be dragged down the road on the end of Germany's leash.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on March 14, 2017, 02:21:28 PM
Can't help thinking the Brexit vote might have killed Boston United! The future of the club is dependent on getting the new ground and the new ground is dependent on the Quadrant Development and without the need for all that extra housing due to the influx of EU workers then the funding for Quadrant must be in doubt. Also inflation is set to kick in now with prices going up by 10-15%, so people will have less money to spend and will have to cut back on something and going to games may be what has to give to get family budgets balanced, so crowds will fall a bit like they did during recent recessions. So a double whammy. :(

Local politics will save it Ken .
Lincs CC have brain washed so many people that the relief road will end all Boston traffic problems and eliminate the need for a bypass they dare not let it fail ..........we hope .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ken Fox on March 14, 2017, 02:41:12 PM
Local politics will save it Ken .
Lincs CC have brain washed so many people that the relief road will end all Boston traffic problems and eliminate the need for a bypass they dare not let it fail ..........we hope .

But I'm worried that Brexit gives Lincs CC a perfect excuse to avoid spending any money on Boston. :(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on March 15, 2017, 09:07:40 AM
Just a O/T on this O/T thread, police are investigating as many as 17 MP's ( all Tory ) into overspending of election funds.  All in marginal seats.  The government majority 17, oops. ???
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on March 16, 2017, 10:52:12 AM
A fine of £70,000 and under Police investigation :-\ :-\
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: kingofnaves on March 16, 2017, 03:20:00 PM
Just seen it on Sky.Disgusting behaviour from Tory bloke towards the reporter.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Old Pilgrim on March 17, 2017, 10:03:45 AM
Local politics will save it Ken .
Lincs CC have brain washed so many people that the relief road will end all Boston traffic problems and eliminate the need for a bypass they dare not let it fail ..........we hope .

But I'm worried that Brexit gives Lincs CC a perfect excuse to avoid spending any money on Boston. :(

LCC don't need an excuse Ken. They've already stopped spending money on Boston!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on March 17, 2017, 12:04:54 PM
re the Troublesome Scots
can we have a referendum to get rid of them??
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on March 29, 2017, 03:09:22 PM
Letter handed in, no going back.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on March 29, 2017, 07:43:25 PM
Letter handed in, no going back.

A leaked memo from the EU suggests they will offer us reversible notification; highly unlikely, of course, but a remote possibility should the negotiations go so badly public opinion turns against Brexit. More likely an EU ploy to try and undermine May's negotiating hand. Quite clever really.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on April 02, 2017, 10:02:13 AM
Spain being a bit naughty over Gibraltar.  I can see why the locals voted to remain.  Just a point we had to some extent open borders, but not it seems the border with Gib.

I went there some years back and was delayed several hours in queues.

Can you imagine if Britain did that from people returning from Ireland.

Could be a sign of things to come if Scotland leave the union?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on April 04, 2017, 07:44:58 PM
Also, we're probably going to need to make some cuts. I damn well hope they start with the state pension.

I've been meaning for a while to apologise for this remark. I do have two bugbears - one with the fairness of a young generation being voted out of the EU by an older one which is not going to see the consequences, and a second with the government's continuing generosity in funding the 'triple lock' on the state pension which I think is both unsustainable and a poor use of public money. But  to link them in that way was clearly in pretty poor taste. Apologies to those that I offended (and who still have the will to read this thread).

I suppose my only defence is that it was at the height of post referendum national insanity. Nine months later, we have members of the House of Lords talking about war with Spain. So I guess I don't have a monopoly on ill advised comments...
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on April 04, 2017, 08:02:17 PM
Also, we're probably going to need to make some cuts. I damn well hope they start with the state pension.

I've been meaning for a while to apologise for this remark. I do have two bugbears - one with the fairness of a young generation being voted out of the EU by an older one which is not going to see the consequences, and a second with the government's continuing generosity in funding the 'triple lock' on the state pension which I think is both unsustainable and a poor use of public money. But  to link them in that way was clearly in pretty poor taste. Apologies to those that I offended (and who still have the will to read this thread).

I suppose my only defence is that it was at the height of post referendum national insanity. Nine months later, we have members of the House of Lords talking about war with Spain. So I guess I don't have a monopoly on ill advised comments...

As a pensioner your comments do not offend me Adam,   from your remark it was clear to me you had stepped into a zone you have very little understanding of .   How would you reform pensions ?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: oxo on April 04, 2017, 09:32:40 PM
Also, we're probably going to need to make some cuts. I damn well hope they start with the state pension.

I've been meaning for a while to apologise for this remark. I do have two bugbears - one with the fairness of a young generation being voted out of the EU by an older one which is not going to see the consequences, and a second with the government's continuing generosity in funding the 'triple lock' on the state pension which I think is both unsustainable and a poor use of public money. But  to link them in that way was clearly in pretty poor taste. Apologies to those that I offended (and who still have the will to read this thread).

I suppose my only defence is that it was at the height of post referendum national insanity. Nine months later, we have members of the House of Lords talking about war with Spain. So I guess I don't have a monopoly on ill advised comments...

As a pensioner your comments do not offend me Adam,   from your remark it was clear to me you had stepped into a zone you have very little understanding of .   How would you reform pensions ?


Well Adam it's been a long time coming but your apology is welcome and yes I was very offended. Good luck for the future young man.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on April 04, 2017, 11:02:42 PM
Also, we're probably going to need to make some cuts. I damn well hope they start with the state pension.

I've been meaning for a while to apologise for this remark. I do have two bugbears - one with the fairness of a young generation being voted out of the EU by an older one which is not going to see the consequences, and a second with the government's continuing generosity in funding the 'triple lock' on the state pension which I think is both unsustainable and a poor use of public money. But  to link them in that way was clearly in pretty poor taste. Apologies to those that I offended (and who still have the will to read this thread).

I suppose my only defence is that it was at the height of post referendum national insanity. Nine months later, we have members of the House of Lords talking about war with Spain. So I guess I don't have a monopoly on ill advised comments...

As a pensioner your comments do not offend me Adam,   from your remark it was clear to me you had stepped into a zone you have very little understanding of .   How would you reform pensions ?

I've no strong views on if they need reform as such, but I think the (state) pension has blatantly been used by the Conservatives as a bung to buy votes. The tripe lock costs £6bn a year if you believe the government's actuaries (https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/e344e79c-71af-11e5-9b9e-690fdae72044). I'm pretty sure that money would do greater good for both the country and older generation if it was used to fund social care or the NHS (even though I'm sure the latter will soon be awash with £350m a week of extra cash).
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on April 05, 2017, 09:21:21 AM
The younger generation seem to think that the government GIFT a pension to over 65's.

The state pension is a RIGHT paid for by the pensioners during their working lives.

I speak from experience, when I say in my early married life I struggled to keep the wolves at bay.

I worked all the overtime I could and even had a second job.  My contribution towards my state pension at the time could have been better spent else where.  So in effect, my family and I went without to receive a meagre state pension.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ferret on April 05, 2017, 09:46:00 AM
If it hadn't been for the actions of the older generation about 70 years ago, you might not have even had the chance to vote on whether to be part of a united Europe or not......
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on April 05, 2017, 10:21:15 AM
If it hadn't been for the actions of the older generation about 70 years ago, you might not have even had the chance to vote on whether to be part of a united Europe or not......
exactly Pat............
the "You have taken away our future" line gets up my nose...maybe , just maybe we've saved it
as one who opted in all those years ago and have seen both sides of the story maybe we are better able to judge what is right or wrong???
we were never told about European Commissions...Court of Human Rights...European Parliaments...What might they(whoever "they" are) have planned for YOU next??
who will bail out Spain, Ireland, Italy who are technically bankrupt??
remember NO government has any money..it only raises money by Tax..that is you and i...
forget the figures about NHS being saved etc, the fact is we give Brussels ££ and they give some of it back BUT say where it is spent.
remember this figure is less than we give them
It saddens me that Remainers just bring it down to being racist and/or thick.
My  biggest regret is that the vote wasn't wider(either way) and the previous government had put things in place or at least thought about the consequences of a Leave win
anyway i'll nip to the antique shop and buy a tin hat and wait for replies from more educated erudite posters
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on April 05, 2017, 12:26:54 PM
If it hadn't been for the actions of the older generation about 70 years ago, you might not have even had the chance to vote on whether to be part of a united Europe or not......
exactly Pat............
the "You have taken away our future" line gets up my nose...maybe , just maybe we've saved it
as one who opted in all those years ago and have seen both sides of the story maybe we are better able to judge what is right or wrong???
we were never told about European Commissions...Court of Human Rights...European Parliaments...What might they(whoever "they" are) have planned for YOU next??
who will bail out Spain, Ireland, Italy who are technically bankrupt??
remember NO government has any money..it only raises money by Tax..that is you and i...
forget the figures about NHS being saved etc, the fact is we give Brussels ££ and they give some of it back BUT say where it is spent.
remember this figure is less than we give them
It saddens me that Remainers just bring it down to being racist and/or thick.
My  biggest regret is that the vote wasn't wider(either way) and the previous government had put things in place or at least thought about the consequences of a Leave win
anyway i'll nip to the antique shop and buy a tin hat and wait for replies from more educated erudite posters

No tin hat needed from my perspective, it is a good point you make about seeing the UK pre and post-EU. I've only ever lived in a UK that is part of the union.

The only thing I'd really take issue with is that we are (well, not for much longer) a partner in all the institutions you allude to. People are very quick to roll out the 'Brussels tells us what to do' argument, but we ARE (or were) Brussels. Nothing is imposed on us; we are/were a key part of the decision making process. We won numerous concessions and rights-of-veto on stuff we didn't like, and yet people still blathered on as though we were basically being run by Germany! And you do the same, asking what "they" have planned for "us". It was never a question us v them. Now, thanks to Brexit, it is. And since they're over four times bigger than us, I can't see this having a happy ending.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on April 05, 2017, 01:17:11 PM
Most of the stuff the EU legislates on (that we don't opt out of) is incredibly boring stuff about product standards and regulations. I can't believe anyone who realises how dry and technocratic this work is could seriously care about whether it is done in Brussels or Whitehall. Nationally important decisions on government spending, health care, education, defence and much more are all still taken in Westminster. Tim Martin's interview on the Today programme was a case in point - asked to name an EU regulation he'd like to scrap, he couldn't, and eventually bemoaned a rise in alcohol duty. Which is set by Philip Hammond...

For my money, the one material area where control is 'taken' from us is migration policy. But once that is set by our own government, there is going to to be a very awkward moment when politicians have to explain that, actually, the economy needs high levels of immigration to keep our economy running, hospitals staffed, vegetables picked and packed etc. For years they've put off that conversation by blaming the EU, but that card won't be available much longer.

I'm beginning to feel moderately optimistic about Brexit, in the sense that we will either negotiate a reasonable trade 'deal' or (probably more likely) the wheels will fall off completely, the current government will dissolve and we end up reconsidering the whole thing...
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on April 05, 2017, 01:57:04 PM
I'm beginning to feel moderately optimistic about Brexit, in the sense that we will either negotiate a reasonable trade 'deal' or (probably more likely) the wheels will fall off completely, the current government will dissolve and we end up reconsidering the whole thing...

I feel the same, actually. As counter-intuitive as it may appear, the fact A50 has now been sent means we can actually start dealing with reality. And if Brexit does turn out to be a good thing, or the EU implodes in the next few years, I will hold my hand up and admit I was wrong.

I can't see it happening, however, and as the news gets ever gloomier about the deal (or no deal) we will ACTUALLY end up with, the more likely it is that big compromises are made that effectively satisfy those of us on the remain side. That won't happen easily, of course. Hard brexiters hate normal, working people, including everyone on this board, and 99% of people who live and work in towns like Boston - they absolutely loathe you/me/us, and now, emboldened by their success at the polls and labour's pathetic weakness, it's likely they're going to overreach themselves in their desire to wreak ideological havoc on the very people they lied to in the campaign. They are determined to uncouple from Europe so they can get on with the job of taking your pensions, your holidays, your rights at work, holidays, maternity pay - you name it. And if you don't believe me, perhaps check out Liam Fox's thoughts on the deregulation of the labour market and tell me you're fine with it.

They will get found out, in time. Brexit will flush them out, and when their true intentions are clear, I do not doubt the public will turn on them. I feel like this is a fight we had to have at some point, but there's no doubt 'we' (including Brexiters) will stop them stripping society of the progressive gains made in the post-war era. The tragedy of Brexit is it even allowed them a chance.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on April 05, 2017, 01:59:21 PM
I'm beginning to feel moderately optimistic about Brexit, in the sense that we will either negotiate a reasonable trade 'deal' or (probably more likely) the wheels will fall off completely, the current government will dissolve and we end up reconsidering the whole thing...

I feel the same, actually. As counter-intuitive as it may appear, the fact A50 has now been sent means we can actually start dealing with reality. And if Brexit does turn out to be a good thing, or the EU implodes in the next few years, I will hold my hand up and admit I was wrong.

I can't see it happening, however, and as the news gets ever gloomier about the deal (or no deal) we will ACTUALLY end up with, the more likely it is that big compromises are made that effectively satisfy those of us on the remain side. That won't happen easily, of course. Hard brexiters hate normal, working people, including everyone on this board, and 99% of people who live and work in towns like Boston - they absolutely loathe you/me/us, and now, emboldened by their success at the polls and labour's pathetic weakness, it's likely they're going to overreach themselves in their desire to wreak ideological havoc on the very people they lied to in the campaign. They are determined to uncouple from Europe so they can get on with the job of taking your pensions, your holidays, your rights at work, holidays, maternity pay - you name it. And if you don't believe me, perhaps check out Liam Fox's thoughts on the deregulation of the labour market and tell me you're fine with it.

They will get found out, in time. Brexit will flush them out, and when their true intentions are clear, I do not doubt the public will turn on them. I feel like this is a fight we had to have at some point, but there's no doubt 'we' (including soft Brexiters, whose own objections about the EU were not based on a pathological hatred of the protections of normal working people enshrined in laws they could not change) will stop them stripping society of the progressive gains made in the post-war era. The tragedy of Brexit is it even allowed them a chance.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on April 05, 2017, 02:45:07 PM
The younger generation seem to think that the government GIFT a pension to over 65's.

The state pension is a RIGHT paid for by the pensioners during their working lives.

I speak from experience, when I say in my early married life I struggled to keep the wolves at bay.

I worked all the overtime I could and even had a second job.  My contribution towards my state pension at the time could have been better spent else where.  So in effect, my family and I went without to receive a meagre state pension.

Typical of many of our time Mick .     Galling for many that saved cash to supplement a poor pension now find the rate of return on the savings are rock bottom ,    feeding the younger over spenders with cheap credit to fuel the ever increasing debt the country is getting into .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on April 05, 2017, 03:17:08 PM
Also, we're probably going to need to make some cuts. I damn well hope they start with the state pension.

I've been meaning for a while to apologise for this remark. I do have two bugbears - one with the fairness of a young generation being voted out of the EU by an older one which is not going to see the consequences, and a second with the government's continuing generosity in funding the 'triple lock' on the state pension which I think is both unsustainable and a poor use of public money. But  to link them in that way was clearly in pretty poor taste. Apologies to those that I offended (and who still have the will to read this thread).

I suppose my only defence is that it was at the height of post referendum national insanity. Nine months later, we have members of the House of Lords talking about war with Spain. So I guess I don't have a monopoly on ill advised comments...

As a pensioner your comments do not offend me Adam,   from your remark it was clear to me you had stepped into a zone you have very little understanding of .   How would you reform pensions ?

I've no strong views on if they need reform as such, but I think the (state) pension has blatantly been used by the Conservatives as a bung to buy votes. The tripe lock costs £6bn a year if you believe the government's actuaries (https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/e344e79c-71af-11e5-9b9e-690fdae72044). I'm pretty sure that money would do greater good for both the country and older generation if it was used to fund social care or the NHS (even though I'm sure the latter will soon be awash with £350m a week of extra cash).

You were emphatic that you wanted the state pension reformed ,  given the opportunity you can,t suggest what parts to cut .
You are correct that the likes of Osbourne and Cameron try to buy the OAP vote .     Blatant attempt by these two 7 years ago, promising  to protect the elderly from losing their homes to fund care in old age ,   what happened to that ?   

On the Brexit side you had IDS the man hailed as a great benefits reformer who used the referendum as an excuse to exit the DWP , leaving it in a bigger need of reform than when he took it over .

Both camps have their own agenda ,  the likes of Dipdodah and myself will assure you it is not the working class they are working to benefit .       

Be honest ,  we have no idea what he outcome will be ,  only that if  turns out to be a great success to politicians will take the plaudits , failure and the working classes will be blamed .

Don't trust a politician .

Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on April 05, 2017, 09:42:21 PM
Very true GHM
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on April 18, 2017, 02:55:53 PM
Snap election called for 50 days time.  Liberal Democrats have stated their vote changer will be focused on the Remainers.

Does this mean 48% of the population will vote Lib Dem?

If Lib Dems become the main opposition ( could run Labour close ) can they influence any Brexit plans?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on April 19, 2017, 08:02:56 AM
Snap election called for 50 days time.  Liberal Democrats have stated their vote changer will be focused on the Remainers.

Does this mean 48% of the population will vote Lib Dem?

If Lib Dems become the main opposition ( could run Labour close ) can they influence any Brexit plans?


If Lib Dems become the main opposition ( could run Labour close ) can they influence any Brexit plans?

Yes.

Does this mean 48% of the population will vote Lib Dem?

No.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: The Third Twin on April 19, 2017, 07:28:11 PM
Snap election called for 50 days time.  Liberal Democrats have stated their vote changer will be focused on the Remainers.g

Does this mean 48% of the population will vote Lib Dem?

If Lib Dems become the main opposition ( could run Labour close ) can they influence any Brexit plans?


If Lib Dems become the main opposition ( could run Labour close ) can they influence any Brexit plans?

Yes.

Does this mean 48% of the population will vote Lib Dem?

No.
Can any of this stop the (Ch)impvasion to League 2? Will it save Trinity from relegation? Will Boston beat Fylde 9-2 and gain their revenge for earlier this year? Will the new ground be built by Christmas 2020, or will we be kicking an old brown leather thing about in no man's land somewhere near Wyberton whilst humming The Pipes of Peace?
Not a chance on any of the above.
The reality is none of us really know, and until the fat lady sings, there will be more changes than in a typical Dennis Greene starting line-up.
Personally, I wish they'd get on with it.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on April 23, 2017, 04:33:20 PM
Just a O/T on this O/T thread, police are investigating as many as 17 MP's ( all Tory ) into overspending of election funds.  All in marginal seats.  The government majority 17, oops. ???

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/

And this from a Tory paper >:( >:(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on April 30, 2017, 09:20:14 AM
Nuttall to stand in Skegness and Boston.  At the news conference he was asked who managed Boston United. He did not know.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on April 30, 2017, 09:23:20 AM
Sorry have just seen Ed Kandi's thread
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on May 10, 2017, 08:37:18 AM
Is Corbyn going to keep us in Europe?  When questioned yesterday about Labour's policy on Brexit, he refused to confirm Labour would take Britain out of the EU.  Has he done a secret deal with SNP?

Very worrying if a possible ( unlikely ) future Prime minister does not follow the will of the nation.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on May 10, 2017, 10:00:04 AM
Nah. We're deffo leaving the EU, don't you worry about that.

But not much will change as it is slowly becoming obvious we can't do the hard Brexit the hardline Tories want without completely crashing the economy. The segment on Newsnight about how the delicate supply chains involved in car manufacturing will be destroyed is particularly disturbing. Industrial leaders are already pressing the government to soften their stance.

Indeed, May will be forced to make so many compromises, all of which are dictated by the practical realities of the world we live in, that little will change.... except we won't have any control of the rules we are forced to follow to trade with the EU and beyond.

Basically, we've handed all the power to the Germans and the French and the Spanish and the rest of the bloc. And I don't want to hear a whimper of complaint from the Brexit lot when you figure this out in the next year or so, as that's what you voted for - enjoy!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ernie100 on May 10, 2017, 10:16:56 AM
We've survived numerous financial crashes, two world wars and Tony Blair - we'll survive Brexit, it's what we are.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on May 10, 2017, 10:55:44 AM
That's true. We did survive two World Wars. Ok, millions died, food had to be rationed for a decade and children evacuated across the country. But we survived. So really, it was all great when you think about it. Let's hope Brexit is just as good!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on May 10, 2017, 11:32:56 AM
We've survived numerous financial crashes, two world wars and Tony Blair - we'll survive Brexit, it's what we are.

"Dear employees - due to the Government's decision to leave the customs union, it is now logistically impractical to continue importing the parts required to make the car engines you build, therefore we've moved production to Germany and you are now out of a job.

Still, I'm sure you'll survive: after all, you got through the second world war or something. Best of luck at the food banks!

P.S - please do not reply to this email as I'm off fox hunting for the weekend.

Toodle-pip!
Sir Huthbert Vastly-Rich, CEO"
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: youngchubby69 on May 10, 2017, 01:54:16 PM
The world is a crazy unstable place these days, I have never much worried about what goes on in general, but now I am truly concerned about many things,Trump,North Korea,ISIS, and Turkey and many more.
Brexit means very little to me as they need us more than we need them,I voted to leave not because of immigration or being dictated to.
My values are simply this,we should not be giving away any money when we have people walking the streets with mental health problems, homeless sleeping on the streets,people going hungry and the need for food banks.
Charity beguins at home, sorry if people don't think that's right but I only give to UK charity's, a select few only Shelter and the Salvation army, everyone has the right to give to what or whomever they choose to.
Try a bit of volunteering at a homeless shelter, believe me you will feel humbled in many ways, the dignity that the homeless show is remarkable,I came away at the end of my day with a massive respect for those lovely people I had the pleasure to meet,and the Salvation  volunteer's are amazing.
Yes I was humbled and yes I she'd many tears through the day and the evening also.
Will Brexit solve our problems at, probably not but at least we have the choice to vote on such issues, that's democracy in a democratic country the people voted and the majority voted to leave whether it was a slim or big majority we go with the biggest vote,so stop trying to change the outcome just because it didn't go your way,if you don't like democracy go and try your luck in North Korea.
If it had gone the other way I would have took on the chin, accepted it and moved on that's democracy,not throwing your rattle out of the pram when you don't get what you want,I was raised by parents when they said no it meant know.
We will survive and many of my friends who have their own business are doing much better know and planning for the future Brexit,why? because that's what business people do,think and plan ahead.
One door closes and another opens,there lose is our gain.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on May 10, 2017, 05:56:06 PM
The world is a crazy unstable place these days, I have never much worried about what goes on in general, but now I am truly concerned about many things,Trump,North Korea,ISIS, and Turkey and many more.
Brexit means very little to me as they need us more than we need them,I voted to leave not because of immigration or being dictated to.
My values are simply this,we should not be giving away any money when we have people walking the streets with mental health problems, homeless sleeping on the streets,people going hungry and the need for food banks.
Charity beguins at home, sorry if people don't think that's right but I only give to UK charity's, a select few only Shelter and the Salvation army, everyone has the right to give to what or whomever they choose to.
Try a bit of volunteering at a homeless shelter, believe me you will feel humbled in many ways, the dignity that the homeless show is remarkable,I came away at the end of my day with a massive respect for those lovely people I had the pleasure to meet,and the Salvation  volunteer's are amazing.
Yes I was humbled and yes I she'd many tears through the day and the evening also.
Will Brexit solve our problems at, probably not but at least we have the choice to vote on such issues, that's democracy in a democratic country the people voted and the majority voted to leave whether it was a slim or big majority we go with the biggest vote,so stop trying to change the outcome just because it didn't go your way,if you don't like democracy go and try your luck in North Korea.
If it had gone the other way I would have took on the chin, accepted it and moved on that's democracy,not throwing your rattle out of the pram when you don't get what you want,I was raised by parents when they said no it meant know.
We will survive and many of my friends who have their own business are doing much better know and planning for the future Brexit,why? because that's what business people do,think and plan ahead.
One door closes and another opens,there lose is our gain.

Well said :)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on May 10, 2017, 06:24:11 PM
send it to Matt Warman and get him to learn it off by heart......
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on May 10, 2017, 08:49:05 PM
I was brought up in the Lincolnshire fens ,  most the farmers were always keen to tell anyone who would listen that they would "be bankrupt next year if things didn't alter "  , fighting for increased subsidies of cause .    Don't recall any of them going under .
 
Moving  into the contracting industry lo and behold it seemed doomed ,  bosses predicting widespread failure ,  another strategy for government help .   Don't recall any of them going under .

May and Brussels are doing the same as any good business does ,  working for the best deal . 

If any of us really knew the long term outcome of Brexit I don't think we would be playing on Patter , we would be too busy playing the money markets



Osbourne and Dave assured us that if Brexit won the referendum,  within  months there would be financial mayhem ,  including widespread unemployment , homes repossessed etc .      Completely wrong of cause ,  Dave,s never had it so good and Geo has been able to  give up one of his jobs .   Pleased that so far their wisdom is turning out ill founded .

As an old timer who has heard it all I say ignore the politicians and so called experts (vested interests) , instead listen to the words of youngchubby 69 .
Relax and watch a new economy evolve .







 
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: AdyG on May 10, 2017, 11:14:56 PM
The problem is that we're fed biased information, Murdoch (Australian with US passport) has backed the winner since 1979 with exaggerated or untrue news headlines, when questioned why he was so opposed to the EU he replied 'that's easy, when i go into Downing street they do what i say; when i go to Brussels they take no notice'. Members of his organisation are regularly having secret meetings with members of government.

Any party with rich billionaire donors such as the tory party will never clamp down on tax evasion/avoidance, recently they voted down a law that would have required landlords to make their homes 'fit for human habitation' (they can make these laws in UK parliament without EU approval).  Currently the strong & stable Mrs Mayhem is avoiding the public & only letting journalists ask pre-arranged questions (not even being able to hold the microphone in some cases), her meetings are in local tory hqs & visiting factories where journalists have been barred from attending. No live TV debate. Similar actions to a dictator?

our 'so called' Democracy, we live in a first past the post system with 2015 Election resulting in 1 Tory MP per 35000 votes, 1 UKIP MP per 4 million votes, & 1 Green MP for every 1.2Million votes for them.

The moment Mrs Mayhem uttered the words 'hard brexit' the pound devalued, resulting in increased costs in drugs for the NHS, all imported products or products with imported parts also increase in cost. Yes this can benefit exporters, people with savings abroad in tax havens, & our houses & businesses are now cheaper for foreign investers. Hopefully brexit will be a success, but a success for who?

We're told that unemployment is at record lows & that immigrants contribute more to the economy than they take out. We're told that public services are at breaking point. We're told the economy under the conservatives is 'strong & stable'. If all these are correct then it points to the government completely failing to collect taxes & allocate funding properly to the right areas. We have full time workers needing in-work benefits as their 'living wage' doesnt cover their living costs. We have nurses using foodbanks for heavens sake!

Homelessness - since Thatcher started selling off council houses we are now paying a fortune to private landlords in rent, it might have raised some funds at the time (as with other privatisations) but longterm its more expensive. Maybe should have invested in more social housing?

These are all my thoughts & observations. People need to think & research carefully from neutral sources before voting on elections. Personally i decide the night before the vote, but with our first past the post system do i vote how i believe or tactically? Do I vote for the local candidate or the national party? I'm yet to decide.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: The Big M on May 11, 2017, 07:55:12 AM
We did have a chance to make the electoral system for a fairer one. People voted against it.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on May 11, 2017, 08:31:11 AM
The problem is that we're fed biased information, Murdoch (Australian with US passport) has backed the winner since 1979 with exaggerated or untrue news headlines, when questioned why he was so opposed to the EU he replied 'that's easy, when i go into Downing street they do what i say; when i go to Brussels they take no notice'. Members of his organisation are regularly having secret meetings with members of government.

Any party with rich billionaire donors such as the tory party will never clamp down on tax evasion/avoidance, recently they voted down a law that would have required landlords to make their homes 'fit for human habitation' (they can make these laws in UK parliament without EU approval).  Currently the strong & stable Mrs Mayhem is avoiding the public & only letting journalists ask pre-arranged questions (not even being able to hold the microphone in some cases), her meetings are in local tory hqs & visiting factories where journalists have been barred from attending. No live TV debate. Similar actions to a dictator?

our 'so called' Democracy, we live in a first past the post system with 2015 Election resulting in 1 Tory MP per 35000 votes, 1 UKIP MP per 4 million votes, & 1 Green MP for every 1.2Million votes for them.

The moment Mrs Mayhem uttered the words 'hard brexit' the pound devalued, resulting in increased costs in drugs for the NHS, all imported products or products with imported parts also increase in cost. Yes this can benefit exporters, people with savings abroad in tax havens, & our houses & businesses are now cheaper for foreign investers. Hopefully brexit will be a success, but a success for who?

We're told that unemployment is at record lows & that immigrants contribute more to the economy than they take out. We're told that public services are at breaking point. We're told the economy under the conservatives is 'strong & stable'. If all these are correct then it points to the government completely failing to collect taxes & allocate funding properly to the right areas. We have full time workers needing in-work benefits as their 'living wage' doesnt cover their living costs. We have nurses using foodbanks for heavens sake!

Homelessness - since Thatcher started selling off council houses we are now paying a fortune to private landlords in rent, it might have raised some funds at the time (as with other privatisations) but longterm its more expensive. Maybe should have invested in more social housing?

These are all my thoughts & observations. People need to think & research carefully from neutral sources before voting on elections. Personally i decide the night before the vote, but with our first past the post system do i vote how i believe or tactically? Do I vote for the local candidate or the national party? I'm yet to decide.

Lots of very good points. Theresa May is a hopeless public speaker for someone who has reached high office, and in terms of other political abilities, I suspect she's average at best (although it's hard to tell because she's so secretive). The trouble is that Corbyn makes her look like JFK or Barack Obama!

The strength of our economy is massively overplayed. Our productivity levels are poor compared to France/Germany, and if you took out London and just looked at the rest of the country, they would be dire. I would blame years of underinvestment in the regions, from both major parties.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on May 13, 2017, 08:31:22 AM
Its looking ever more likely that my prediction of an in/in referendum was wrong, and Brexit really will mean Brexit  8)
Still a long way to go though  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Fairfax on May 16, 2017, 07:21:39 PM
It's been a while since I last commented on this thread, though I am happy to have been in at the beginning. So far I have seen my hopes realised and that we are well on the way to reclaiming our independence. The forthcoming election is really about one thing and that is our independence. Although a life long socialist, I will be backing Teresa May to finish the job.

However, although I may not be around to see it, as I have inoperable liver cancer and have no idea how long I have left, I predict that the Labour Party will eventually find a moderate socialist leader who will carry the country on many of the policies which are proving to be popular despite the current leader. Winston Churchill lead us successfully in a battle for survival, but then saw the country come out in favour of socialist policies, which gave us institutions which we take for granted today. I think that history will repeat itself. If it does, then I hope that a future Labour government is not as naive as some of those in the past, but treads carefully. One final thought: We must continue as Great Britain. Let's tolerate none of this nonsense about splitting up into rump states.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on May 16, 2017, 07:55:48 PM
chuffing wars Fairfax....that's a post!

I hope you are wrong about your liver I really do ..but hope the rest is true...
wishing you all the best
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: youngchubby69 on May 16, 2017, 08:25:07 PM
Theft sorry stock hear of your health problems,wish you well Fairfax
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on May 17, 2017, 10:54:40 AM

 The trouble is that Corbyn makes her look like JFK or Barack Obama!


[/quote]
JFK was a serial womaniser and if he were in power today probably wouldn't last long.....hold on..Trump is President.
Obama i thought seemed a decent guy yet he was so unpopular in the States.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on May 17, 2017, 03:42:38 PM
It's been a while since I last commented on this thread, though I am happy to have been in at the beginning. So far I have seen my hopes realised and that we are well on the way to reclaiming our independence. The forthcoming election is really about one thing and that is our independence. Although a life long socialist, I will be backing Teresa May to finish the job.

However, although I may not be around to see it, as I have inoperable liver cancer and have no idea how long I have left, I predict that the Labour Party will eventually find a moderate socialist leader who will carry the country on many of the policies which are proving to be popular despite the current leader. Winston Churchill lead us successfully in a battle for survival, but then saw the country come out in favour of socialist policies, which gave us institutions which we take for granted today. I think that history will repeat itself. If it does, then I hope that a future Labour government is not as naive as some of those in the past, but treads carefully. One final thought: We must continue as Great Britain. Let's tolerate none of this nonsense about splitting up into rump states.

I hope you have many more years left, and I hope the NHS is still here to give you support.  I, like you have voted Labour all my life, but we need an hard Brexit and I hate to admit it but we may get this with May.  Listening to Labour's manifesto yesterday, I think like you, under a different leader they would succeed.  Take care.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on May 18, 2017, 10:32:23 AM
Even now, nearly a year on, I have absolutely no idea why anyone would wish a 'hard' Brexit on the country. It's completely baffling. Hundreds of thousands of people will lose their jobs, and this time this isn't the waffling of 'project fear' but the practical reality of life outside the EU trading bloc trading on WTO terms.

To wish this on the UK is like saying you don't like your bald patch and blowing your head off with a shotgun to solve the problem. In all the months since we voted out, I have yet to read a single argument for it that makes sense, or isn't based on delusional fantasies.

Theresa May, for her many faults, is too intelligent to pursue hard Brexit and will surely face down her back-benchers as the catastrophic damage it will inflict on the economy becomes ever clearer. Indeed, a bigger majority for her in the Commons - while a disaster for the NHS and public services in general - might actually be the lesser of two evils.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 02, 2017, 08:29:44 AM
It's been a while since I last commented on this thread, though I am happy to have been in at the beginning. So far I have seen my hopes realised and that we are well on the way to reclaiming our independence. The forthcoming election is really about one thing and that is our independence. Although a life long socialist, I will be backing Teresa May to finish the job.

However, although I may not be around to see it, as I have inoperable liver cancer and have no idea how long I have left, I predict that the Labour Party will eventually find a moderate socialist leader who will carry the country on many of the policies which are proving to be popular despite the current leader. Winston Churchill lead us successfully in a battle for survival, but then saw the country come out in favour of socialist policies, which gave us institutions which we take for granted today. I think that history will repeat itself. If it does, then I hope that a future Labour government is not as naive as some of those in the past, but treads carefully. One final thought: We must continue as Great Britain. Let's tolerate none of this nonsense about splitting up into rump states.

I hope you have many more years left, and I hope the NHS is still here to give you support.  I, like you have voted Labour all my life, but we need an hard Brexit and I hate to admit it but we may get this with May.  Listening to Labour's manifesto yesterday, I think like you, under a different leader they would succeed.  Take care.

Well the outcome is not so clear cut.  Labour are making inroads into the Tory lead.  A week as gone by since above post and I think Corbyn is coming through this campaign in a lot better shape than May.  In my opinion the worst thing for this country, is if any party has a Thatcher type massive majority.  We do not want a hung parliament with Brexit talks just round the corner, but a small majority to keep them on their toes would be ideal.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 02, 2017, 09:59:18 PM
Too many Japanese soldiers who still don't know the war is over...although May could still bottle it and leave us in the Single Market and Customs Union.  :police:

Great post Fairfax, hope you're around to see your wishes come true...
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on June 02, 2017, 10:44:23 PM
http://openeurope.org.uk/blog/tags/european-council/
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 09, 2017, 12:45:59 PM
Where does yesterday's result leave Brexit?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on June 09, 2017, 01:48:52 PM
Hopefully takes hard Brexit off the table at least - the people have spoken: they don't want it. Oh well! 8)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 09, 2017, 06:06:07 PM
It's been a while since I last commented on this thread, though I am happy to have been in at the beginning. So far I have seen my hopes realised and that we are well on the way to reclaiming our independence. The forthcoming election is really about one thing and that is our independence. Although a life long socialist, I will be backing Teresa May to finish the job.

However, although I may not be around to see it, as I have inoperable liver cancer and have no idea how long I have left, I predict that the Labour Party will eventually find a moderate socialist leader who will carry the country on many of the policies which are proving to be popular despite the current leader. Winston Churchill lead us successfully in a battle for survival, but then saw the country come out in favour of socialist policies, which gave us institutions which we take for granted today. I think that history will repeat itself. If it does, then I hope that a future Labour government is not as naive as some of those in the past, but treads carefully. One final thought: We must continue as Great Britain. Let's tolerate none of this nonsense about splitting up into rump states.

I hope you have many more years left, and I hope the NHS is still here to give you support.  I, like you have voted Labour all my life, but we need an hard Brexit and I hate to admit it but we may get this with May.  Listening to Labour's manifesto yesterday, I think like you, under a different leader they would succeed.  Take care.

Well the outcome is not so clear cut.  Labour are making inroads into the Tory lead.  A week as gone by since above post and I think Corbyn is coming through this campaign in a lot better shape than May.  In my opinion the worst thing for this country, is if any party has a Thatcher type massive majority.  We do not want a hung parliament with Brexit talks just round the corner, but a small majority to keep them on their toes would be ideal.

This just what we did n't want
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 09, 2017, 06:52:04 PM
We keep freedom of movement, we keep paying into the EU coffers, we are unable to make free-trade deals with countries outside of the EU, and we are unable to make our own laws...sounds like an idyllic soft Brexit, and the way big business wanted it to go   ;)
We'd be out of the EU, but still subject to all the parts of it that we voted against...the laughing stock of Europe and any parts of the rest of the world that were remotely interested.

Or we could keep pushing on for the correct Brexit that the democratic majority voted for, under whatever form of government emerges from this mess  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on June 10, 2017, 03:53:07 PM
Hopefully takes hard Brexit off the table at least - the people have spoken: they don't want it. Oh well! 8)

Yep. I've no real idea what to make of the result. I'm still firmly of the view that Corbyn is an idiot, but he might - entirety by accident - have turned out to be quite a useful idiot. Hard Brexit is dead in the water and I can see a possible path to it being binned full stop. If Labour came out against it in the inevitable election later this year, I might even think about voting for them. Until that election, May basically has to be incredibly nice to Anna Soubry and Ken Clarke. Lolz.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 10, 2017, 08:24:49 PM
We have no actual experience or facts to judge the long term outcome or effect of Brexit .
As a lifetime Tory voter my reading of the situation is thus ..
Do I make a decision on the judgement of three hapless failed politicians , Cameron , May and Osbourne ?  three advocates of sticking with the EU.
Judging from the enormous amount of lies , misjudgement,  mismanagement and U turns this terrible trio have done following their judgement is in my opinion  not wise .    I stick with the majority vote of the referendum .

Maybe our problem is the public made the right decision at the referendum but we do not have the politicians to deliver .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 10, 2017, 09:03:55 PM
This 'terrible trio'' all agreed that a Brexit vote meant leaving the Single Market, so nothings changed, unless there was a second referendum that I've missed!  :o
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Steviemas on June 10, 2017, 09:47:55 PM
Agreed, either they deliver the Brexit the public voted for, leaving the single market and the custom union or watch the upsurge in the ukip vote if they do a backslide as Farage fears they might.
 One shining light from the election is that the youth who voted have thankfully been spared the delusions of Corbyns' ideological nonsense, boy would they have been so disappointed.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on June 12, 2017, 01:26:09 PM
This 'terrible trio'' all agreed that a Brexit vote meant leaving the Single Market, so nothings changed, unless there was a second referendum that I've missed!  :o

Actually, quite a lot has now changed: despite the bluster of David Davies today, the Government can no longer force a hard brexit through Parliament. Any attempt to do so now would fail, since a sizable number of Tories also agree it would be a stupid thing to do and are mobilising today to force Theresa May to reconsider.

The mooted cross-party Brexit working group would also dismiss a hard brexit out of hand too. The facts and evidence point to it being a complete catastrophe, and an increasing number of MPs now believe it would be an act of obscene stupidity to pursue it.

And no, the country certainly did not vote for it - only those who worry they're not going to get what they wanted are trying to suggest it was and that to go for a 'soft brexit' is somehow subverting the 'will of the people'. Give me a break. The Norway solution was advocated by the leave campaign on numerous occasions, and having closely watched both campaigns the EEA problem was very rarely mentioned (I remember shouting at the TV during several of the debates). Indeed, go back far enough on this thread and you'll see I brought it up at the time, long before before the penny had dropped.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 12, 2017, 08:59:48 PM
This 'terrible trio'' all agreed that a Brexit vote meant leaving the Single Market, so nothings changed, unless there was a second referendum that I've missed!  :o

Actually, quite a lot has now changed: despite the bluster of David Davies today, the Government can no longer force a hard brexit through Parliament. Any attempt to do so now would fail, since a sizable number of Tories also agree it would be a stupid thing to do and are mobilising today to force Theresa May to reconsider.

The mooted cross-party Brexit working group would also dismiss a hard brexit out of hand too. The facts and evidence point to it being a complete catastrophe, and an increasing number of MPs now believe it would be an act of obscene stupidity to pursue it.

And no, the country certainly did not vote for it - only those who worry they're not going to get what they wanted are trying to suggest it was and that to go for a 'soft brexit' is somehow subverting the 'will of the people'. Give me a break. The Norway solution was advocated by the leave campaign on numerous occasions, and having closely watched both campaigns the EEA problem was very rarely mentioned (I remember shouting at the TV during several of the debates). Indeed, go back far enough on this thread and you'll see I brought it up at the time, long before before the penny had dropped.

I would think that all the MP,s referred to above and many more would have assured us 6 weeks ago that May would win with a big majority .   Many MP,s appear to be hapless but never underestimate their ability to lie , scheme and stab a colleague in the back .
Many ,many more twists and turns in the pipeline .  No history to  guide us to guessing the correct outcome , only speculation from politicians , bankers and various experts ,  we all know where their advice has got us in the past .

Dipdodah has now lured us into submitting almost 700 posts expressing an opinion on a  subject if we are honest we do not know the answer to .      I think the only thing established so far is many of us have as much spare time on our hands as Dipdodah . :)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 13, 2017, 10:45:49 AM
This 'terrible trio'' all agreed that a Brexit vote meant leaving the Single Market, so nothings changed, unless there was a second referendum that I've missed!  :o
At 8.10am yesterday, on the Today programme, David Davis stated that nothing had changed with the government's plans for Brexit.
At 7.20 this morning on the same programme Harriet Harman stated that the Labour party Brexit policy was to leave the Single Market and Customs Union.

It seems pretty clear that the policies of the main parties are for a 'clean' Brexit.

I always thought that referendum was an in/in referendum as,whatever the result, big business and the big money, would
ensure that any attempt to leave the Single Market would be voted down. I still believe that is what will happen and atm we are going through the motions of an elaborate charade.
The longer it goes on the worse the repercussions will be when millions of people realise that we are out of the EU in name only, and still subject to everything that we were promised would end if we voted out   :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on June 13, 2017, 01:22:15 PM
You are correct: the official party line for both Labour and the Tories is to pursue a clean break, but you surely can't have failed to notice the growing noises from the backbenches of both parties to soften this stance, simply because of the huge damage it will cause.

Will either party change course? Yes, I think they will have to as reality sets in. But - and this is a big but - perhaps it's already too late. I've just been reading an interesting article in the Financial Times today which says that France and Germany will try and push us towards a hard brexit regardless of any moves here to avoid one. They know that if that's the route we choose they can basically cripple our economy and take supply-chain critical manufacturing jobs off us, such as Airbus, as well as financial passporting.

Catastrophe for us, but since the carnage that hard brexit will cause seems to have not yet sunk with with the electorate, France and Germany see an historic opportunity to nudge us off the edge of the cliff knowing that UK politicians who attempt to resist will be branded traitors at home. They must be absolutely loving all this. We're basically gifting them jobs so we can do some trade deals with New Zealand, or something.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on June 13, 2017, 06:31:58 PM
Labour's manifesto was definitely vague enough to allow them to demand single market membership the moment one person's job is placed on notice because of Brexit...

I've always thought that, if the economy tanks and chaos unfolds in broad daylight, we might end up reversing the whole thing - but up until a week ago, that scenario looked vanishingly unlikely, as Theresa May had bought (an illusion of) stability. But this 'government' probably makes that scenario plausible again.

Prime Minister Corbyn in a year's time will be amusing, if nothing else.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 13, 2017, 09:52:09 PM
There has never been the mandate for the so called "hard brexit". Many who voted were led to believe they were getting all the benefits of a soft brexit with none of the pitfalls of hard brexit. The elephant in the room is that it simply can't be delivered in the form in which it was sold. A hard brexit will undoubtably lead to economic hardship, whilst a soft brexit will leave many feeling cheated. 

Either way I stand by my original statement that by voting out, we will end up in a significantly weaker position whichever path we take - "hard" or "soft".  I respect the result of the referendum, however dubious I considered the result, being based on a campaign of wilful misinformation. However, I think it would do those in power (and those who voted leave) good to remember that 48% of the population voted remain.  We may begrudgingly accept the result, but that does not give consent to the ultra brexiteers to pursue their extreme version of Brexit.  It is the job of the government to recognise the wishes of ALL its subjects and govern accordingly.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 16, 2017, 10:52:44 PM
There's been another referendum apparently  :police:
72 hours before negotiations begin and the Chancellor is saying that the majority of people favour a soft Brexit.
A business-friendly Brexit is what we're heading for, leaving the EU without actually leaving it, in order to keep the money men happy.  That would be the same people who just got away with mass corporate manslaughter yesterday as soon as May announced that the investigation into the London fire would be 'Judge-led', corporate-speak for a cover up.

Now there's a surprise, a real laugh out loud moment... 
Mrs May may as well resign now because there's riots on the streets of London tonight and even bigger trouble ahead  :police: :police: :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 17, 2017, 02:04:06 AM
It's bloody typical really. You wait 300 years for the worst Prime Minister in history then 2 turn up together!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on June 17, 2017, 07:02:45 AM
It's bloody typical really. You wait 300 years for the worst Prime Minister in history then 2 turn up together!
Agreed, May has proven to be a disaster and is now only there as an interim measure.
The Cameron/Osbourne duet caused this situation with their arrogant incompetence.  They then then tried to lie their way out of it with project fear, and they're now sat in the wings taking the p*ss and getting very well paid for it.

Your response also applies to the other parties, since Ed was block-voted in ahead of David Milliband there's been no effective opposition.  David Milliband would have won in 2015 IMO, but is now the forgotten man of British politics.

Clegg and Farron never had a hope in hell...more chance with a Cable/Campbell alliance of the undead  :-\
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 17, 2017, 08:06:48 PM
Ironic that indirectly the unions got the tory party into power  ,  by backing Ed Milliband to stab his brother in the back ,  which led to a hapless government which opened the door for Cameron and co to take power .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on June 17, 2017, 09:18:02 PM
I'd have taken Ed over David any day of the week. What's more, I would have taken him over Cameron and I'd take him over May too. If one thing has been proven it's that Tory promises of providing "strong and stabl" governments and avoiding "coalitions of chaos" have been shown to be comically wide of the mark.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 19, 2017, 12:08:46 PM
Today's the day let the wheeling and dealing begin.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on June 21, 2017, 02:42:45 PM
It's amazing how the language around Brexit has changed. It's now almost always purely in the context of damage limitation, with not a peep from any of its proponents about any benefits. Occasionally you get some bluster from Mogg and co about 'it can only be a hard Brexit because soft Brexit would be betraying the will of the people' - but never any actual positive reasons for it. As someone pointed out on Twitter, if Gove or Johnson gave one of their 'this is how great Brexit will be' speeches today, they would look deranged.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on June 21, 2017, 03:40:40 PM
Yeah. As it stands, hard brexit is totally dead and public opinion is moving away from the idea of it. Obviously this will upset a a fair few people, so it may well be hardline brexiters demanding a vote on the final deal instead of the remain side. Crazy how it has turned around so quickly.

I say 'as it stands' because the political landscape keeps changing every few months, so who knows what the next 18 months will bring. The position of the hardliners hasn't exactly been helped by the defeat of populist nationalism in France, nor the terminal weakening of May's hapless government. Perverse as it may seem, perhaps their best hope of getting that clean break they so desire is a Corbyn-led government. Bonkers.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: John Murphy on August 04, 2017, 06:10:12 PM
I see today that nothing has been decided about the border between Northern Ireland and the South.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on August 16, 2017, 06:30:45 PM
I see today that nothing has been decided about the border between Northern Ireland and the South.

What will be stopping EU immigrants entering Ireland, crossing the Border to Northern Ireland.

Our borders will be weak at this point, any undesirables can enter via the back door.

A mockery really.  I visit Ireland on a regular basis and most are against any border control.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Winging It on August 16, 2017, 09:56:07 PM
I see today that nothing has been decided about the border between Northern Ireland and the South.

What will be stopping EU immigrants entering Ireland, crossing the Border to Northern Ireland.

Our borders will be weak at this point, any undesirables can enter via the back door.

A mockery really.  I visit Ireland on a regular basis and most are against any border control.

Exactly my thoughts on seeing this on the news. We didn't vote for weak borders or poor immigration control. Would love to know how the pathetic government plans of getting net migration figures down to the tens of thousands ( that old broken promise ) when at the same time they want to guarantee all EU citizens currently here the right to stay.  The great betrayal has already started, backed by project fear mark II !
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on August 17, 2017, 08:22:38 AM
It's not a 'great betrayal' whatsoever. It's simply that Brexit is far more complicated and far harder to implement in reality than you were told by the leave campaign, many of whom live in a delusional fantasyland. The Irish border was always going to be a problem - this was pointed out repeatedly but no-one wanted to hear it.



Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Winging It on August 17, 2017, 01:38:09 PM
It's not a 'great betrayal' whatsoever. It's simply that Brexit is far more complicated and far harder to implement in reality than you were told by the leave campaign, many of whom live in a delusional fantasyland. The Irish border was always going to be a problem - this was pointed out repeatedly but no-one wanted to hear it.

Its not the Brexit campaigners that are delusional, its this bunch or remoaner's who just won't accept a democratic result as so many predicted would happen right after the shock election result came in.  Pure and simple, those who voted out knew that an out vote meant leaving the single market and shoring up our borders...both of which the project fear mark II team will ensure will not happen as we wished. I call that being betrayed, and many others do too.  I think we all need to be accepting that remoaners will never accept that they lost in the election, and that will do all they can to dislodge what is supposed to be a democratic result.  Bad losers in my world !!   Bring back Farage  ;D
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on August 17, 2017, 03:07:30 PM
So let me get this straight: you want to *impose* a hard border on the people of Ireland to solve YOUR issues with immigration? Wow!

The hard border is - and was - NEVER going to happen. Get over it! More and more of this stuff will come out over the following months and years, so you'd better get used to being disappointed.

And this isn't people trying to 'thwart' the will o'the people. Fact is, people DO respect the referendum. Brexit is happening, but it's just such a hideously complex task that delivering it in the real world - not the world of pipe dreams and fantasies of the Leave campaign - is going to require so many more of these compromises by the end we'll probably wonder what the point was.

Screaming 'betrayal' isn't helpful. Anyway - enjoy it, you've won, you're getting what you wanted!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on August 17, 2017, 03:42:58 PM
Incidentally, the border is 300+ miles long. There are in the region of 200 road crossings. Have you even the faintest idea how much it would cost the British taxpayer (and believe me, the Republic of Ireland won’t put anything towards it – this is all on us) to create, staff and then maintain this hard border you want to keep immigrants out? A least a billion quid up front. And then hundreds of millions per year thereafter. That’s fewer schools, hospitals, police. Permanently higher taxes. Lower pensions. Is that a price you’re honestly willing to pay? Really?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Winging It on August 17, 2017, 03:53:12 PM
So let me get this straight: you want to *impose* a hard border on the people of Ireland to solve YOUR issues with immigration? Wow!

The hard border is - and was - NEVER going to happen. Get over it! More and more of this stuff will come out over the following months and years, so you'd better get used to being disappointed.

And this isn't people trying to 'thwart' the will o'the people. Fact is, people DO respect the referendum. Brexit is happening, but it's just such a hideously complex task that delivering it in the real world - not the world of pipe dreams and fantasies of the Leave campaign - is going to require so many more of these compromises by the end we'll probably wonder what the point was.

Screaming 'betrayal' isn't helpful. Anyway - enjoy it, you've won, you're getting what you wanted!

You keep mentioning the fantasies of the leave campaign, but my view is what about all the lies from Cameron which cost him his job and the promise to bring down net migration to the tens of thousands ? Even now, with that weak woman in charge she will still betray us over those figures. This is why i believe we need every angle of border controlled, because i'll tell you now, a weak border with Ireland will aid more migrants coming in through the back door that way.  Had we had a decent pro Brexit PM now, we would be cutting the foreign aid budget, thus funding our own priorities here and certainly looking after our ex servicemen who find themselves abandoned and homeless.  Money well saved in the long term is my honest opinion. Add to that the so called benefits of EU migrants weighed up against the negatives such as 1 in five of the unemployed are currently migrants, 1/3rd of all crimes are committed by migrants and pretty much all of the illegal trading of illicit booze and tobacco are caused by migrants from the EU thus costing the UK Billions in lost revenue per annum then you can surely see we are better off trying to control poor mass immigration and protecting our nation.These Billions saved by cutting the foreign aid budget as well as cutting down on illegal trade would make the few Million per year of which you speak to control Irelands Borders look like a drop in the ocean. I know its not all about immigration, but it was indeed the key subject of the referendum, and Cameron as a say failed to grasp that and then lost his job because of it.  Anyway, i respect your opinion so peace.. we're all BUFC regardless of in nor out.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Martyn Bishop on August 17, 2017, 04:48:10 PM
Immigrants actually make a net contribution to the UK economy - they pay more in taxes etc than the receive in benefits.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Winging It on August 17, 2017, 07:10:42 PM
Immigrants actually make a net contribution to the UK economy - they pay more in taxes etc than the receive in benefits.
In taxes yes, but lets not forget that they send around 30% of total wages per month back to their homelands. Meaning it doesn't get spent in our Country and help boost our economy. I know if we worked abroad we would probably do the same, but that still doesn't address our situation here is my honest opinion.  I would also add just how much they claim for children that are not currently in the UK, more of our money freely moving abroad. While most migrants are blooming good workers, i am still not convinced the pro's outweigh the cons. Especially where our economy and communities are concerned. As i said to Pete, i respect all of your views as i would expect you would respect mine. To be all the same in agreement would make the world a boring place.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on August 18, 2017, 08:01:35 AM
No worries, not going to fall out with you or anyone about it. This is a Boston forum after all, not PMQs, although this thread has been fascinating over the last year or so.... and refreshingly cordial given the wide range of opinions!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on August 18, 2017, 08:43:00 AM
Immigrants actually make a net contribution to the UK economy - they pay more in taxes etc than the receive in benefits.
Does that include when they return home for a time and them return to claim tax back?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Fairfax on August 21, 2017, 06:45:03 PM
I really do not see that Ireland is a problem. We have an agreement with Ireland since the separation of the nations and this predates the EU or even the EEC by many years. Under that agreement,  Irish passport holders have the right to restriction-free travel within the UK and an Irish passport holder can even countersign your application for a UK passport. Assuming that a resumption of "The Troubles" does not occur we just resort to the situation prior to 1968.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on August 21, 2017, 08:27:34 PM
Immigrants actually make a net contribution to the UK economy - they pay more in taxes etc than the receive in benefits.

You overlook the cost of new schools , expanding the health service and the problems and costs of housing Martyn .
A factor overlooked applicable to Boston is the distress caused to many housed and unhoused Bostonians ,  many have been pushed down
the social ladder housing list ,  others in the lower cost home areas of Boston have found themselves trapped in a home unsellable
at a fair market value due to adjacent HMOs .    All due to lack of planning starting in the Blair era right through to the present
government .

These very same people unable to for see relatively simple problems like above then have the audacity to preach the merits/setbacks
involved in Brexit . These are joined by bankers and others who  at different times have been caught with their fingers in the till .
Add to that the "facts" which is in fact speculation  produced by "experts" the political equivalent of M O Day pundits ..

Can we really form a sound opinion based on the above ?    Relax and sit back 5 years before a true picture emerges .

And lets all reward Dipododah for instigating this thread  by rushing up and buying him a pint in the Pilgrim bar tomorrow night . :)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on August 21, 2017, 08:59:09 PM
Immigrants actually make a net contribution to the UK economy - they pay more in taxes etc than the receive in benefits.

You overlook the cost of new schools , expanding the health service and the problems and costs of housing Martyn .
A factor overlooked applicable to Boston is the distress caused to many housed and unhoused Bostonians ,  many have been pushed down
the social ladder housing list ,  others in the lower cost home areas of Boston have found themselves trapped in a home unsellable
at a fair market value due to adjacent HMOs .    All due to lack of planning starting in the Blair era right through to the present
government .

These very same people unable to for see relatively simple problems like above then have the audacity to preach the merits/setbacks
involved in Brexit . These are joined by bankers and others who  at different times have been caught with their fingers in the till .
Add to that the "facts" which is in fact speculation  produced by "experts" the political equivalent of M O Day pundits ..

Can we really form a sound opinion based on the above ?    Relax and sit back 5 years before a true picture emerges .

And lets all reward Dipododah for instigating this thread  by rushing up and buying him a pint in the Pilgrim bar tomorrow night . :)

 :) I would think I am more likely to get a bash on the head.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on August 22, 2017, 12:11:43 PM
I really do not see that Ireland is a problem. We have an agreement with Ireland since the separation of the nations and this predates the EU or even the EEC by many years. Under that agreement,  Irish passport holders have the right to restriction-free travel within the UK and an Irish passport holder can even countersign your application for a UK passport. Assuming that a resumption of "The Troubles" does not occur we just resort to the situation prior to 1968.

Right, but it's not Irish passport holders the Brexit lot are worried about is it?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on August 26, 2017, 12:02:57 AM
Net immigration down according to the latest figures.
Nowhere near the 10s of thousands Cameron said he was aiming for, but we've been lied to by the Governor of the Bank of England, both the current and the ex - Chancellor, the ONS, the CBI, the BBC, and every two-bit remoaner snake-oil salesman who decides to stick his or her oar in, so what were we to expect from our ex - prime minister?  ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on August 26, 2017, 11:04:55 PM
Presumably driven by the UK being a much less attractive place to come to, a very dubious cause for celebration...

The only way we'll ever get near the 100k net migration 'target' in the next decade is by completely crashing the economy or doctoring the figures Soviet style. At the moment, the former doesn't look particularly likely, as the high up sensibles (essentially Phillip Hammond and the civil service) look to be doing a reasonably adept job of ensuring we quietly sell out on the more idiotic Brexit ideas/fetishes in order to avoid the damage they would cause (see: EFTA Court). As of yet, people don't really seem to have noticed. Essentially, we're probably going to end up having a relationship with the EU that means we have slightly lower obligations on matters like free movement (which will be superficial/for parading to the Daily Mail), a clunkier but still workable trading relationship, and a significantly diminished influence over any of this stuff. A pretty bum deal, but probably about the least bad one available.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on August 27, 2017, 08:24:22 AM
Come on Adam and ED,  sod Brexit more important things to sort out down York St , we've got sort out the Chapman /Murray problem first.  ;)

We can hear and read much on Brexit through the media , which I guess is where most get the Brexit information from .   How reliable is this ?    Note most the journalists attended the same education establishments as the politicians that they socialise with and collect their "reliable information" from .

Independent studies ?  these are mainly commissioned by people/parties with a vested interest .  compiled by so called experts based mainly on biased speculation to suit the organisation paying the huge fee for the report ,  Well won't we do the same ? , probably another big payday round the corner .

I collect my information from Fred (not his real name ) next door .  Fred,s  education although better than mine did not extend to the establishments which these so called Brexit experts attended .   
What expertise does Fred have to offer that the above mentioned experts do not ? .   Fred has worked in the food processing import/export business for 25 years .  When Brexit is done and dusted he will have what he has now , a job that gives him a reasonable  life style , no fat cat salary nor a multi-million pound windfalls.   
I have found his information/predictions far more reliable and unbiased than that collected from the media .

Abandon the Telegraph and the log fire .
Nothing beats standing on the drive discussing Brexit with Fred in a lovely Lincolnshire sunset .  Healthy, enlightening and the free fruit and veg tastes great .

The immigration figures were in line with Fred,s prediction .       Factories going up in Poland , and  "staff wanted " posters beginning to appear in some EU countries .

Forget Brexit  lets get back to the more important matters of Murray and Chapman !
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on August 27, 2017, 10:10:48 AM
Come on Adam and ED,  sod Brexit more important things to sort out down York St , we've got sort out the Chapman /Murray problem first.  ;)

We can hear and read much on Brexit through the media , which I guess is where most get the Brexit information from .   How reliable is this ?    Note most the journalists attended the same education establishments as the politicians that they socialise with and collect their "reliable information" from .

Independent studies ?  these are mainly commissioned by people/parties with a vested interest .  compiled by so called experts based mainly on biased speculation to suit the organisation paying the huge fee for the report ,  Well won't we do the same ? , probably another big payday round the corner .

I collect my information from Fred (not his real name ) next door .  Fred,s  education although better than mine did not extend to the establishments which these so called Brexit experts attended .   
What expertise does Fred have to offer that the above mentioned experts do not ? .   Fred has worked in the food processing import/export business for 25 years .  When Brexit is done and dusted he will have what he has now , a job that gives him a reasonable  life style , no fat cat salary nor a multi-million pound windfalls.   
I have found his information/predictions far more reliable and unbiased than that collected from the media .

Abandon the Telegraph and the log fire .
Nothing beats standing on the drive discussing Brexit with Fred in a lovely Lincolnshire sunset .  Healthy, enlightening and the free fruit and veg tastes great .

The immigration figures were in line with Fred,s prediction .       Factories going up in Poland , and  "staff wanted " posters beginning to appear in some EU countries .

Forget Brexit  lets get back to the more important matters of Murray and Chapman !

Well said GHM. I thought you would be at church this sunny Sunday morning ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on August 27, 2017, 01:03:52 PM
Labour have just fallen off their Brexit fence on the side of staying in the Single Market and Customs Union...what a mess they're in   :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on September 01, 2017, 08:24:23 AM
I see the EU put the devorce bill for the UK at 100 billion. They are having a laugh. :-[
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on September 01, 2017, 08:34:47 AM
Absolute disgrace....just shows how much they extract from UK.
They may have mentioned this 18 months ago...something else they grey unelected are trying to impose on us...
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ferret on September 01, 2017, 10:35:36 AM
I see the EU put the devorce bill for the UK at 100 billion. They are having a laugh. :-[

Just applying simple arithmetic, 100,000,000,000 divided by the quoted 350,000,000 we send them a week means we'll be better off in about five and a half years? About the same commitment as a car loan? Or have I over simplified it all?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ghostwriter on September 01, 2017, 10:58:00 AM
Don't forget that around half the reported £350 million comes back to the UK, so more likely around 11 years.  Some of us may not be around to see the benefits by then!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Bostonshire on September 01, 2017, 01:35:29 PM
Don't forget that around half the reported £350 million comes back to the UK, so more likely around 11 years.  Some of us may not be around to see the benefits by then!

Id account for it all, as most of what came back we also got told where it had to be spent. Most the time it wasnt in places where we needed it most.

Anyone remember the bridge spend years ago!! Im Yet to see a 56 ton load to go over the new bridge in town which cost millions to do and was dictated by the EU fund that we get discounted.
Frampton reserve 150k investment in a area i think should be left natural anyway. All Dictated by the EU and is a spend forming part of the rebate
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: John Murphy on September 25, 2017, 09:35:39 AM
Still no mention of the Irish boarder crossing >:(

I voted Brexit, I think we are being sold down the line, out surely means out.

I did not vote to come out in five years ( from voting day )  or vote for us to pay more than our fair share to get the fat cats fatter.

May has shafted the British public.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Tash on September 25, 2017, 05:50:17 PM
Still no mention of the Irish boarder crossing >:(

I voted Brexit, I think we are being sold down the line, out surely means out.

I did not vote to come out in five years ( from voting day )  or vote for us to pay more than our fair share to get the fat cats fatter.

May has shafted the British public.

You sound surprised 😀
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on September 26, 2017, 09:29:54 AM
I am afraid she has got to appease the remoaners.

If you look back over the posts on this thread, it was predicted this would happen. :(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on September 26, 2017, 11:34:03 AM
Are you really surprised that organising Brexit - disentangling 40 years of legal and trading integration with a continent of 450m people and then trying to come up with an alternative - is going to involve concessions, compromise, and take a long time? In what world does a 52/48 vote for leave - where the form of 'leave' was left completely undefined on the ballot paper - mean that we should automatically opt for the most extreme harikari version of it imaginable?!

This idea that everything is black or white is symptomatic of why UK politics has become an absolute mess. On one hand you have the Tories being torn apart by fantasist loons and public schoolboys like Rees-Mogg and Boris, who treat running the country as japes and banter for the light amusement of public schoolboys. The opposition to that is a Labour party which has turned itself into a personality cult where some fossil who belongs in the 70s is worshiped by a bunch of ill-informed idealists in a manner that should be confined to student union elections.

For me, the best thing that could happen is the whole thing goes to pot, one or more of the two main parties splits up with a sensible party emerging from the ashes, and - though unpleasant - perhaps we need a short, sharp recession to bring the electorate to its collective senses and let us go back to the politics of compromise and steady progress, rather than deluded grand visions.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on September 26, 2017, 11:43:01 AM
I am afraid she has got to appease the remoaners.

If you look back over the posts on this thread, it was predicted this would happen. :(

It's not about 'appeasing' anyone. It's simply May dealing with the actual reality of disentanglement, rather than some weird fantasy that we can cut all ties tomorrow. Unfortunately, no matter how much you may wish to pretend otherwise, Brexit is going to be an extraordinarily complex and hugely expensive task that simply cannot be achieved before the existing deadline. Again, this has been pointed out repeatedly and either completely ignored or dismissed as 'moaning'.

Of course, if you have any practical suggestions as to how we go about replacing all the EU agencies with UK equivalents - not to mention finding several billion quid to construct the vast customs facilities required for our shiny new border - before March 2019, I'm sure we're all ears!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on September 26, 2017, 12:37:18 PM
Anyone who thought it was going to be a quick straight  forward process was living in dreamland as is anyone who thinks they can predict an accurate picture of the state of the EU and the UK in five years time .   Even great successful business men disagree so what chance have Patter posters got of predicting the outcome .

Adam .   RE: Mogg and Boris ,  how on earth did you manage to overlook Geo (6 jobs ) Osbourne .
             Recession ?  YES .   Brexit or otherwise the recession will not short and sharp ,  deep and long I fear .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on September 27, 2017, 08:37:59 AM
Recessions seem to come and go as regular as clockwork, its a boom and bust economy. 40+ years in the EU doesn't appear to have helped that.
Not long ago we were paying 15 % mortgage rates, negative equity was commonplace, and many had their houses repossessed or just sent the keys back to the lender.

I'm sure we'll see more of that when we go begging to be let back in after the 'Implementation Period'  :-\
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on September 27, 2017, 10:17:05 AM
'Implementation' rather than 'Transition' without too much detail concerning what is about to be 'implemented'  :o
Many scenarios possible but all the most likely atm leave us as a vassel state of the federal republic of the EU.
If no deal is better than a bad deal we may as well GTFO before the year end.  The EU have already stated that we'll get a bad deal so over the 'cliff-edge' we go before Britannia gets right royally shafted over the Brussels negotiating table  :angel:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on September 27, 2017, 01:22:06 PM
It's clearly not that we'll be in a state of permanent recession upon leaving the EU (although a nasty one is clearly possible if a Boris Brexit is implemented), it's more that as we erect barriers between ourselves and the market of 450m of the world's most prosperous people next door, the economy is likely to just grow that little bit slower in perpetuity. There will be investments and developments that just don't happen. Think of a car manufacturer choosing to locate its plant in Slovakia rather than Stevenage because it doesn't want to become embroiled in delays and paperwork at Dover. In a way, we won't 'miss' those things, but they mean that a few thousand people who might have got a promising new job at a high-tech manufacturing plant instead find themselves stuck on the minimum wage. We're talking about the economy maybe growing at eg 1.8% a year rather than 2% - but as anyone who understands compounding interest knows, small differences each year add up to substantial amounts in the long run.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on September 27, 2017, 03:50:56 PM
If no deal is better than a bad deal we may as well GTFO before the year end.

That's literally impossible unless you think we can construct huge customs processing facilities at every port in the UK within three months, as well as hiring and training thousands of staff to do the processing. And that's just customs. We'd also require a brand new visa system built and tested within five weeks. IT projects of that magnitude typically need about 3-5 years.

Does anyone round here actually even slightly grasp what hard Brexit means?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: aggy on September 27, 2017, 06:14:33 PM
It means decades of hardship for the majority.

Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Martyn Bishop on September 27, 2017, 06:22:49 PM
The recent EU deal with Canada took seven years!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on September 27, 2017, 07:22:58 PM
I've always believed that the in/out choice in the referendum was actually an in/in choice; we would never be allowed to leave as so many big businesses and financial institutions, both in the UK and Europe, stood to lose too much money so it would eventually be voted down by parliament.  Nothing to do with possible job losses, everything to do with appeasing the shareholders.
At one stage it looked like I'd got it wrong and we were actually heading for the exit, but last Friday's speech by May appears to put an end to that.

There is no hard or soft Brexit, we're either in or out.

The Demos voted out.

 All the obstacles that the project fear/remainers now throw up were implicit in the question on the referendum paper to any partially sentient human being, nobody expected it to be easy ffs!
If we pull out of negotiations, switch to WTO rules, and get on with it we will survive the fall-out, continue trading with the EU with tariffs, and build up trade with other faster growing economies, putting the UK in a much stronger position.
The country's not going to implode over leaving the EU.
There will be uncertainty, and a certain amount of chaos is unavoidable. The borders will no doubt be chaotic initially, but out of chaos comes order.

We need to get on with it before Barnier and Co, ably assisted by the remainer half of our Cabinet, take their chance to bring the UK to heel and punish us for having the impertinence to exercise our democratic right to vote  :-X
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on September 27, 2017, 07:26:35 PM
First point. Nobody voted to be in the EU, because there was no EU when the previous referendum was held. It was to a vote to be a member of an economic community, aka the Common Market, which was supposed to make the movement of goods easier with lower tariffs. I'm still waiting for significantly lower taxes that the government of the time promised if we voted in favour.

Subsequently, our leaders signed a treaty giving away our sovereignty without consulting the people. Unquestionably, this was an act of high treason and the perpetrators would at any other time in history, have been brought to trial and executed.

This is the first and probably the only opportunity for the population to reclaim the lawful rights of the British people. Failure to do this will mean that we will be inevitably drawn deeper into a superstate where we have little or no say in our destiny. All the arguments about compromise are irrelevant. No ifs, no buts to quote a certain culpable politician; we must get out of something we don't believe in. The evidence that we are not part of this pernicious European dream is clear. We have refused to join the Euro. We have refused to commit to the Shengen agreement regarding free movement over boundaries. We have just participated in a pointless exercise to pull back some of the commitments to which we had previously agreed. In other words, we don't believe in the superstate dream and we certainly don't want to immerse ourselves in the idea.

We want our country back and there is only one way to achieve it. The way out may be involved and complicated, depending on which politicians are allowed to stick their oar in, but June 23rd will be a historic day for the nation. If we stay in, it will be the last day for us as a nation.

Fairfax sums it up nicely  8)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on September 27, 2017, 07:54:03 PM
Don't forget that around half the reported £350 million comes back to the UK, so more likely around 11 years.  Some of us may not be around to see the benefits by then!

Id account for it all, as most of what came back we also got told where it had to be spent. Most the time it wasnt in places where we needed it most.

Anyone remember the bridge spend years ago!! Im Yet to see a 56 ton load to go over the new bridge in town which cost millions to do and was dictated by the EU fund that we get discounted.
Frampton reserve 150k investment in a area i think should be left natural anyway. All Dictated by the EU and is a spend forming part of the rebate

Unusual post for this thread , probably the first that quotes FACTS and not opinions based on speculation based on propaganda fed by parties with a vested interests . It fully exposes the lunacy of the Brussels fat cats detachment from the real world .
Can anyone with an insight to Brussels thinking and Boston's transport infrastructure explain where in practice when a 56ton load has crossed over the bridge what commercial premises  can it legally deliver to ?

It must be said that the £150k invested in Frampton reserve will bring much pleasure to the relatively small number of people including Matt Warman MP who frequent the reserve .  Likewise myself I deprive much pleasure several days a week playing a very nice golf course finished to a high standard with the help of EU funding .     Much the same with holiday accommodation ,  many happy days in farm building conversion holiday lets finished to high specification due to generous EU grants made available to the  wealthy farmer .
Sadly I cannot quote any attractive benefits of the EU that the hard working manual worker on low pay has access to .

I think many who voted out did so on the basis that probably some of the figures quoted by both sides were lies and settled for the opportunity to spend the limited amount of money saved on projects decided by our politicians  and not detached fat cats in Brussels .



Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on September 27, 2017, 08:06:29 PM
The recent EU deal with Canada took seven years!

Maybe another good reason for us getting out Martyn .  Pretty sure even our politicians aided in no small measure by our enterprising businesses would slash that timescale .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on September 27, 2017, 10:16:49 PM
I cant help but think the idea of being dictated to by Europe is quite appealing at the moment. Heck, I'd rather our affairs were ran by Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron than Messrs Corbyn, Mogg or Leadsom...
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on September 28, 2017, 08:24:38 AM
I cant help but think the idea of being dictated to by Europe is quite appealing at the moment. Heck, I'd rather our affairs were ran by Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron than Messrs Corbyn, Mogg or Leadsom...

Many find it more appealing the UK being run by politicians with exactly the same motives (self interest) as our European counterparts but guided by enterprising UK business and the profits spent as seen fit by the British and not the feather bedded Europeans .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on September 28, 2017, 10:16:22 AM
Why UK exporters are set for a sugar rush .

The UK's sugar beet industry is looking to ramp up production,  as EU quotas come to an end this week after nearly 50 years .
For the first time since 1968 the UK can produce and sell as much sugar around the world as it would like .
Experts predict it could result in lower prices .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: kingofnaves on September 28, 2017, 02:28:56 PM
Cheaper candy floss at May Fair?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on September 28, 2017, 03:48:59 PM
Cheaper candy floss at May Fair?

Now you are talking silly ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Martyn Bishop on September 28, 2017, 04:10:42 PM
Nothing is as straight forward as it first seems. Growers are now worried that it means European farmers will also be able to flood our market with their sugar, so the price will fall but the price the farmer gets will also fall.
Apparently this happened when the milk quotas were lifted in 2015, forcing many dairy farmers out of business.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on October 03, 2017, 11:47:14 AM
900 people injured in Spain by the police.
Any member state should be immediately suspended if it inflicts harm on its own people according to EU rules  :police:
Too much money involved so Juncker & Co will do nothing  ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on October 16, 2017, 02:08:16 PM
More talk today of a no deal is better than a bad deal.  They seem intent on trying to punish us for leaving.  I wonder what will happen if Spain splits, I can see that being more harmful.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on October 27, 2017, 08:39:58 PM
That's thrown the cat amongst the pigeons :o :o   Spain in turmoil.  The EU is a sick patient.  If Madrid send in the National police or god forbid the troops, another civil war could be in the offing.  This is serious.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 02, 2017, 06:36:02 PM
Slightly off topic on this off topic thread.  I am with EE and all roaming charges in Europe have been dropped. I had cause to ring Ireland on my mobile.  I was charged £9.87 for the call.  I contacted EE and was told the EU charges do not apply to the Uk.  I questioned why?  Surely last time I looked we were part of the EU.  This is the reply " The UK is part of Europe, but not part of the Euro Zone.  This means geographically The UK is part of Europe but trading standards are not the same as European countries thus this difference"   I said what a load of crap.  He said " If I had rang Ireland from France it would have been part of my plan "   Anyway as a gesture of goodwill I had it refunded.

So even thou we are in the EU, we are not.   I rest my case.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on November 04, 2017, 11:28:34 AM
Slightly off topic on this off topic thread.  I am with EE and all roaming charges in Europe have been dropped. I had cause to ring Ireland on my mobile.  I was charged £9.87 for the call.  I contacted EE and was told the EU charges do not apply to the Uk.  I questioned why?  Surely last time I looked we were part of the EU.  This is the reply " The UK is part of Europe, but not part of the Euro Zone.  This means geographically The UK is part of Europe but trading standards are not the same as European countries thus this difference"   I said what a load of crap.  He said " If I had rang Ireland from France it would have been part of my plan "   Anyway as a gesture of goodwill I had it refunded.

So even thou we are in the EU, we are not.   I rest my case.

That reply from EE makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. And overly complicated. It's quite simple: it's 50p per minute to call Ireland on a pay monthly plan. Now that roaming charges have been abolished, it would also be 50p a minute from France as part of your plan.
EE are no longer permitted to whack the price up.

Also, roaming charges only applied when you were roaming - hence the name - so what they've got to do with any call you make while in the UK is beyond me.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 04, 2017, 01:29:13 PM
That is the reply I got Pete.  I copied it off EE chat, so no mistake.  The customer adviser was called Kumar.  Perhaps an Indian call centre, with limited knowledge.

Just a side note, I had cause to ring EE in the summer to negotiate a new contract.  I got talking to a lovely Irish girl, it turns out the EE call centre was based in Wexford.  She lived in the next street to my best mate, small world ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on November 04, 2017, 04:22:08 PM
Wow. That said, having had my fair share of grief with EE over the years, I can well believe they're dishing out advice that bad/weird!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 30, 2017, 09:27:50 AM
let me try and put figures into context.

People band around figures of X million of debt this and X billion of debt that.

Did you know that one million seconds is approx 12 days and one billion seconds is approx 31 YEARS.

So when Britain were made to pay 1.4 billion to the EU in extra payment the other year, converted to seconds that would take us up to the year 2061. Frightening.

It looks like we are to pay in the region of 40 billion pounds in a divorce payment.  If we paid it back at the rate of £1 a second that is £86,400 a day.  So at that rate we will clear our debt in approx 1,240 years time.

You can see we have been a cash cow for Europe, no wonder they did not want us to leave.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Artemis on November 30, 2017, 05:02:35 PM
During the Financial Crisis of 2008 -  3 UK banks had a total of £37bn injected into them  (Royal Bank of Scotland, Lloyds TSB and HBOS). 

We only need another £3bn and the job is done!

But will there be interest added on to the £40bn if it's not paid off over a certain period of time?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on December 11, 2017, 11:37:52 PM
So it looks like Canada +++, still subject to ECJ, and more or less still in the Single Market and Customs Union, and paying  in £billions for access.
Or shall we just keep our money and take our chances under WTO rules...hmmm difficult choices  ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on December 12, 2017, 08:45:21 AM
So it looks like Canada +++, still subject to ECJ, and more or less still in the Single Market and Customs Union, and paying  in £billions for access.
Or shall we just keep our money and take our chances under WTO rules...hmmm difficult choices  ;)

Non-tariff barriers under WTO rules would result in the car industry departing the UK and put thousands of hardworking people out of a job. Not project fear: simple practical fact.

You could say the same for any number of other industries. I don't think you've really thought this one through. Then again, not many have...
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on December 12, 2017, 03:00:00 PM
Plenty of posturing at the moment all a part of the art of negotiating .



I thought through what Geo Osbourne , Dave Cameron , Philip Hammond and Matt Warman told  me ,   Since Brexit I drive around Boston looking for the promised dole queue ,  decaying factories and repossessed homes they warned would happen in months .  All I see in our area is new homes being sold , full employment according to Philip Hammond , and  new industry on the industrial estates , and  Matt boasting of  thriving local industries .
Thankfully Geo and Dave have avoided unemployment  :)

Brexit is new experience ,  the claimed experts are really Guessperts ,.  (I know but it will be in the Oxford Dictionary in ten years time  :)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: John C on December 12, 2017, 06:33:19 PM
Equally I work in the NHS and have not noticed £350million a week coming in yet. Just job cuts and expectations to do more with less.

I realise we haven't left the EU yet so won't be getting any financial benefits but neither would I expect too many downsides till we actually leave or at least until the deal is finalized.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on December 12, 2017, 07:56:24 PM
Equally I work in the NHS and have not noticed £350million a week coming in yet. Just job cuts and expectations to do more with less.

I realise we haven't left the EU yet so won't be getting any financial benefits but neither would I expect too many downsides till we actually leave or at least until the deal is finalized.

Sadly politicians use the NHS as an easy vote winner , then when the polling booths close toeing the party line takes priority .
I was amazed recently when a member of Lincoln County Hospital radiograthy dept revealed to me that he had turned out for a couple of hours work the previous Sunday for no pay "because of a serious demand ".   
Don,t build up hopes of increased funding John ,  I would think some of it has been earmarked for upgrading the MPs home of rest . ( Houses of Parliment and its  taxpayer funded bar .)   
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on December 12, 2017, 10:10:17 PM
So it looks like Canada +++, still subject to ECJ, and more or less still in the Single Market and Customs Union, and paying  in £billions for access.
Or shall we just keep our money and take our chances under WTO rules...hmmm difficult choices  ;)

Non-tariff barriers under WTO rules would result in the car industry departing the UK and put thousands of hardworking people out of a job. Not project fear: simple practical fact.

You could say the same for any number of other industries. I don't think you've really thought this one through. Then again, not many have...

Typical patronising remoaner post - against all the odds we do appear to be leaving in some shape or form - get used to it  ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on December 13, 2017, 08:13:33 AM
So it looks like Canada +++, still subject to ECJ, and more or less still in the Single Market and Customs Union, and paying  in £billions for access.
Or shall we just keep our money and take our chances under WTO rules...hmmm difficult choices  ;)

Non-tariff barriers under WTO rules would result in the car industry departing the UK and put thousands of hardworking people out of a job. Not project fear: simple practical fact.

You could say the same for any number of other industries. I don't think you've really thought this one through. Then again, not many have...

Typical patronising remoaner post - against all the odds we do appear to be leaving in some shape or form - get used to it  ;)

As I say, and I really don't want to be rude, if you think crashing out on WTO terms is a *good* thing, you clearly haven't thought it through. Of course, if you want to tell me how exactly the car manufacturing industry could possibly remain in the UK with (on average) 8 hour waits for customs checks at the border on the several million car parts that come over on 1,100 lorries every single day, then I'm quite prepared to admit I'm wrong. And I'm sure Honda would love to know your solution to the problem too.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on December 14, 2017, 09:10:40 AM
Last night's defeat in the commons has but us back in our negotiations , possibly extending our negotiation period by months if not years.

I am in two minds about last nights vote.  On one hand I curse the remoaners, they are doing everything to derail our exit from the EU.  They are against the will of the people.  This is a democracy and they treat us like we are some backward country.  How can May have a free hand to negotiate, when she has little or no say in whether what she has agreed can be implemented.

On the other hand, we are a democracy and we who voted have formed parliament.  Whether we voted Labour, Tory, or the raving loonys we have put MPs in those seats.  We put then there to govern, and this being one of the most important decisions in generations, parliament must have the final say.

Dipdodah@confused.com
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on December 14, 2017, 11:55:12 AM
never a Michael Foot fan... maybe we should have listened
https://www.facebook.com/leaveeuofficial/videos/1466719976759572/
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on December 14, 2017, 02:51:42 PM
Last night's defeat in the commons has but us back in our negotiations , possibly extending our negotiation period by months if not years.

I am in two minds about last nights vote.  On one hand I curse the remoaners, they are doing everything to derail our exit from the EU.  They are against the will of the people.  This is a democracy and they treat us like we are some backward country.  How can May have a free hand to negotiate, when she has little or no say in whether what she has agreed can be implemented.

On the other hand, we are a democracy and we who voted have formed parliament.  Whether we voted Labour, Tory, or the raving loonys we have put MPs in those seats.  We put then there to govern, and this being one of the most important decisions in generations, parliament must have the final say.

Dipdodah@confused.com

They're trying to prevent us leaving the single market, not the EU. Now, you may claim that remaining in the single market it tantamount to remaining in the EU, but hey ho - it wasn't on the ballot, blame Cameron for that, and if you go waaaay back on this very thread I do make the point that the two are two very separate things. The Government has a mandate from the people to leave the EU. It does NOT have a mandate to extend that to quitting the single market. If we DO leave the single market then Parliament should at the very least get a vote on it - because as you say, we live in a democracy, and such hugely important decisions must be put to a vote, not forced through by a gang of ideologically-driven vandals.

Let's not forget, these are the same people who said they wanted to take back control of the UK's borders and secure them. Now they've suddenly realised the Irish border is a massive problem - which anyone with a brain was pointing out 18 months ago - they've completely forgotten they ever said that and now claim they have no intention of enforcing the Irish border. It's just lies upon lies upon lies, and the only people standing in their way are the Tory rebels. Good on 'em.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on December 23, 2017, 09:22:17 AM
Both Cameron and Osbourne clearly stated that if we voted to leave then we would be voting to leave the Single Market, a fact that the remoaners hardly ever remember.

Another good one that they bring up is 'Nobody voted to be poorer'.  I can't remember the phrase 'But only if we end up richer' printed next to the box I ticked on the balliot paper.
Just more brain-dead, patronising, remoaner crap from people who think that the majority of the British public who voted leave are 'considerably thicker than wot we are', and far too stupid to have considered that to leave after 40 odd years may have economic repercussions.

The economy is not perfect but its not in bad shape considering the remoaner experts including the ex-chancellor predicted an immediate recession.  A prediction about as accurate as the one about air travel coming to a complete stand still, travel chaos at the borders, and the English channel blocked by the sunken wreckage of ships that have rusted through while they have been queuing to  get in to dock.

Total absolute remoaner b*llo*cks!  :police:

Happy Brexmas!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on December 23, 2017, 10:34:33 AM
...and similarly, many leading members of the leave campaign argued that we would not leave the single market. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other if you look at the speculative arguments put forward during the referendum campaign.

On the other hand, it is a stonewall fact that the single market and EU are separate entities - Norway and others clearly demonstrate this. It is also a fact that the Conservatives ran their election campaignon the basis of a hard Brexit, leaving the single market etc, and promptly lost their majority.

As a country, we've spent the last six decades or so getting by by taking the middle road - neither the socialised economies ran by large chunks of mainland Europe, but equally with a much stronger safety net than you find across the pond. Infrastructure and management that are not particularly good compared to German standards, but generally at least well utilised compared with the empty airports and roads to nowhere you find Spain, etc etc. The idea that we should be interpreting the result of a 52/48 refendum (which opinion polls say would now go the other way) as meaning we should take the most extreme option available from the winning side was always ridiculous, self-harming and frankly un-British considering our values of moderation and sensible compromise. Thankfully, it now seems like a mixture of our weak negotiating position and there being a handful of Tory MPs happy to put country before party means that hard Brexit is pretty much dead. Good riddance.

Incidentally, two of the key warnings of the remain campaign were of economic damage and the fact that we would have a weak hand in negotiations. On the first, we've gone from being the fastest growing member of the G8 to the slowest. Our economy is barely moving forward at a time when most of the world (including the Eurozone!) is steaming along. On the second, well, look at the terms of that exit deal. Every time the press report that we have 'reached an agreement', it can be roughly translated as us having capitulated to the demands of the EU, because they hold all the cards. It's humiliating, but hey, us remoaners never promised it would be anything other than that.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on December 23, 2017, 11:39:28 AM
Unfortunately, from the remoaner viewpoint, we have to leave the Single Market in order to carry out the democratic will of the people.
Any compromise on this, the EUJ, and the Customs Union, will leave this country as a vassal state to the unelected bureaucrats of the EU, in a subordinate, suppliant position, still paying in billions with no say in what goes on.
Britannia will be laid out in that EU negotiating chamber, legs widespread, while the likes of Juncker, Barnier, and Tusk queue up to give her a right royal shafting :o
 No matter how many hours you spend on here typing endless pro- EU blather you're not going to change that.

The great British public will not stand by and watch that happen.  Enoch Powell was right all those years ago when he said that the British people will not tolerate such a state.of affairs.

Anyway, I'm off down to Chris Cook's printshop to pick up my replica blue British Passport cover as the burgundy EU version is already history  ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on December 23, 2017, 12:36:41 PM
It seems you spend many hours reading up on this Brexit business Adam and we should all be grateful you passing on the opinions /speculations sourced .   Like you I am critical and distrustful of most politicians and rightly so , but I do think many have had actual experience of complex business transactions unlike many of those telling us how it should be done .

I think many underestimate their skills and knowledge ,  I am sure right from the beginning they knew about border problems etc ,
At the moment it is all manoeuvring and posturing for public consumption by both sides .
We will have to be patient for a few years yet for the real effects to work though .

I base my judgement on what I see and hear locally .
I spoke to a very staunch Remain politician recently who  canvassed for a remain vote,  I put the following points to him based on my observations and not based on expert speculation which suggested places like Boston reaped great benifits from imported labour .

The very hard working workforce on low pay hand over a big portion of wages to a landlord ,   lets not forget their income is supplemented by tax credits and child benifit ,  a burden on taxpayers .

It's no secret that the police and trading standards are lacking manpower to cope with illegall sale of illegal goods ,  cigs and drink etc.
No tax for the HMRC there then ,  in turn the bona fida retailer  receives a deduction in sales hitting his earnings that would be tax deducted .  The now ex- remain politician admitted that the adverse  health effect of the contents of the said goods would add futher burden to the Pilgrim in coming years .    A fair portion of the income is "sent home " rather than spent on goods locally .  I think its safe to say the "experts"  overlook pertinent factors just mentioned,  giving me little faith in so-called facts .

According to reported figures over the last 6 years the average wage in Boston has increased 5% ,  little there for the actual workers whatever nationality in Boston to cheer about.

Hopefully farmers and bigger commercial firms are still enjoying the generous EU grants handed to them .









Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on December 23, 2017, 03:24:10 PM
...and similarly, many leading members of the leave campaign argued that we would not leave the single market. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other if you look at the speculative arguments put forward during the referendum campaign.

On the other hand, it is a stonewall fact that the single market and EU are separate entities - Norway and others clearly demonstrate this. It is also a fact that the Conservatives ran their election campaignon the basis of a hard Brexit, leaving the single market etc, and promptly lost their majority.

As a country, we've spent the last six decades or so getting by by taking the middle road - neither the socialised economies ran by large chunks of mainland Europe, but equally with a much stronger safety net than you find across the pond. Infrastructure and management that are not particularly good compared to German standards, but generally at least well utilised compared with the empty airports and roads to nowhere you find Spain, etc etc. The idea that we should be interpreting the result of a 52/48 refendum (which opinion polls say would now go the other way) as meaning we should take the most extreme option available from the winning side was always ridiculous, self-harming and frankly un-British considering our values of moderation and sensible compromise. Thankfully, it now seems like a mixture of our weak negotiating position and there being a handful of Tory MPs happy to put country before party means that hard Brexit is pretty much dead. Good riddance.

Incidentally, two of the key warnings of the remain campaign were of economic damage and the fact that we would have a weak hand in negotiations. On the first, we've gone from being the fastest growing member of the G8 to the slowest. Our economy is barely moving forward at a time when most of the world (including the Eurozone!) is steaming along. On the second, well, look at the terms of that exit deal. Every time the press report that we have 'reached an agreement', it can be roughly translated as us having capitulated to the demands of the EU, because they hold all the cards. It's humiliating, but hey, us remoaners never promised it would be anything other than that.

The EU and the single market are single entities ???  So how come when the public voted to join the European Union in the early 70's they thought it was for the Common Market.  Not until Major signed away ALL our rights did we find we were handcuffed to the mess we are in today.  Despite the BBC's bias remoaner reporting, we are ( and will do ) very well thank you.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on December 24, 2017, 09:37:28 PM
It seems you spend many hours reading up on this Brexit business Adam and we should all be grateful you passing on the opinions /speculations sourced .   Like you I am critical and distrustful of most politicians and rightly so , but I do think many have had actual experience of complex business transactions unlike many of those telling us how it should be done .

I think many underestimate their skills and knowledge ,  I am sure right from the beginning they knew about border problems etc ,

I heartily disagree - I don't think it's possible to underestimate how out of touch and ill informed most (leave supporting) politicians are with the commercial world. The Leave campaign was led by Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, neither of whom has ever known much other than Oxford University followed by a career in journalism and then switching to politics. It's a pretty open secret that the former backed leave for little reason beyond his own ambitions to reach an office far beyond what his abilities merit (unfortunately he has succeeded by somehow making Foreign Secretary). David Davis wrote an article saying that he expected the UK to have agreed free trade deals with multiple countries within 12-24 months of the vote - apparently blind to the fact doing so would be illegal. We're 18 months on and have only just agreed the outline terms of separation with the EU. (And by agreed, I essentially mean accepted all of their demands!)

The Tory back benches are laden with right wing ideologues who either have no real world experience or who have been sitting in safe seats for so long that they've long since forgotten all of it (I'm thinking of the John Redwoods of the world). They live in a fantasy world where they stoke up their own irrational hatred of the EU, and are happy to push for a cliff edge exit just to satisfy their own fetish like obsession - and damn the consequences on their constituents...

If you were interested in the views of those who have actual experience of running businesses, wouldn't it make sense to look at the business lobbies, which overwhelmingly backed remain?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on December 25, 2017, 11:55:17 AM
It seems you spend many hours reading up on this Brexit business Adam and we should all be grateful you passing on the opinions /speculations sourced .   Like you I am critical and distrustful of most politicians and rightly so , but I do think many have had actual experience of complex business transactions unlike many of those telling us how it should be done .

I think many underestimate their skills and knowledge ,  I am sure right from the beginning they knew about border problems etc ,

I heartily disagree - I don't think it's possible to underestimate how out of touch and ill informed most (leave supporting) politicians are with the commercial world. The Leave campaign was led by Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, neither of whom has ever known much other than Oxford University followed by a career in journalism and then switching to politics. It's a pretty open secret that the former backed leave for little reason beyond his own ambitions to reach an office far beyond what his abilities merit (unfortunately he has succeeded by somehow making Foreign Secretary). David Davis wrote an article saying that he expected the UK to have agreed free trade deals with multiple countries within 12-24 months of the vote - apparently blind to the fact doing so would be illegal. We're 18 months on and have only just agreed the outline terms of separation with the EU. (And by agreed, I essentially mean accepted all of their demands!)

The Tory back benches are laden with right wing ideologues who either have no real world experience or who have been sitting in safe seats for so long that they've long since forgotten all of it (I'm thinking of the John Redwoods of the world). They live in a fantasy world where they stoke up their own irrational hatred of the EU, and are happy to push for a cliff edge exit just to satisfy their own fetish like obsession - and damn the consequences on their constituents...

If you were interested in the views of those who have actual experience of running businesses, wouldn't it make sense to look at the business lobbies, which overwhelmingly backed remain?

What about the overwhelming business lobby who backed leave ?.

Overall I plead ignorance on the correct outcome but certainly many I speak to are well up to the challange that brexit brings , 
others who have profited from EU grants are not suprisingly on the remain side,  the same view I would take if I was in their position   .  Certainly the scarcemongering predictions of the remainers have proofed just that .  No signs of financial disaster at Boston post brexit vote as predicted by the remainers .

Apart from above local gleamings the only other source of views I have is the media ,  all of who have their own agenda and feed off politicians with a view to match their own .   So again biased in one direction or other and of no constructive use to form a firm opinion .
We should heed the words of Pete B ,  lies , lies and more lies is what we are fed by both sides .

Unless someone comes on and reveals a genuine and independent source of facts (not speculation) the thead will remain what it has been all along ,   a platform to present ideas which will not have the slightest effect on the outcome .

Remainers :  some of their claims will be right ,  some wrong! .              Brexit : again some right ,some wrong !

No one side have a monopoly of the facts or truth .

Forget brexit and enjoy a happy new year . :)

Want to back a winner ?   Craig Elliott is your man  :)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: John Murphy on February 28, 2018, 06:15:10 PM
With Corbyn wanting a customs union ( would help the Irish border ) and Major ( I signed you up to this mess) wanting another referendum ( bad loser get over it ). 120 page draft published today making Northern Ireland to stand alone in a customs union.  This is messy, but to those that voted out, it was always going to be.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on March 01, 2018, 09:41:11 AM
With Corbyn wanting a customs union ( would help the Irish border ) and Major ( I signed you up to this mess) wanting another referendum ( bad loser get over it ). 120 page draft published today making Northern Ireland to stand alone in a customs union.  This is messy, but to those that voted out, it was always going to be.

And as predicted two years ago by anyone who bothered to actually think about it, now it's all going wrong the "let's just leave NOW!!!!" brigade are pinning all the blame on the EU, who are of course merely sticking by red lines which the UK government has known of all along but had no idea how to satisfy.

But no - the EU are the 'enemy'.... haha, okay. Honestly, this whole thing might as well have been scripted. It would be hysterical if there weren't actual lives at stake over it.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: lonegunman on March 01, 2018, 11:00:35 AM
Easy, just tell them to feck off, simple.  ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: John Murphy on March 01, 2018, 12:54:14 PM
Easy, just tell them to feck off, simple.  ;)

I am in the same frame of mind, after seeing " Darkest Hour " last night >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on March 01, 2018, 04:27:06 PM
Easy, just tell them to feck off, simple.  ;)

A practical impossibility given the infrastructure we need to "just walk away" doesn't actually exist and won't exist for several years yet, which is exactly why the Government are begging the EU for a transitional deal.

Still good to know that two years on people are still living in a weird alternate reality where stuff like this doesn't matter and you can just do what you like...

Also, telling the EU to "feck off" would mean an Irish border - you really want to ruin the lives of people over there, and possibly reignite violence, just to secure your version of Brexit? Really?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on March 01, 2018, 05:02:17 PM
When a Democracy, refuses to implement the result of it's own democratic voting system, it " ceases to be a democracy ". I hope all involved keeps this in mind.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on March 01, 2018, 06:16:20 PM
Pete B   I don't know you but you appear quite erudite and well educated and I do respect your opinion.  What is it about the corrupt Brussels quango you find so attractive??
I voted in back in the day...IN being a free trade agreement..simple as... I didn't get asked about  a euro currency a European commission a European commission a European parliament... I suspect your politics may be left of centre and I have no issues with that but look back at what Michael Foot and Peter Shore tried to tell us back at the last referendum... I as a younger voter didn't listen... but in hindsight they were right..
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Artemis on March 01, 2018, 06:36:14 PM
Why didn't the remainers state that to leave there would be a price - namely the divorce bill of over £50bn.

I suspect the result of the referendum would have been entirely different.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: lonegunman on March 01, 2018, 07:00:34 PM
I've said this before, I voted OUT because I don't trust them. All these faceless people, who are they, what are they up to?
I don't trust the lot that got voted in here, thieving, conniving, bastards!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on March 02, 2018, 09:21:34 AM
It's significant that the EU never mention the 60 page report they commissioned on the Irish border situation.
Maybe because the report found that the technology already exists to make a technological solution possible.  They even suggest using the Irish border solution as a prototype for use across the EU.

Even more significant is the way some of the mainstream media reacted when Boris gave an example of how technology can be used in these situations.

The Remoaners have gone into a frenzy of anti- Brexit propaganda ahead of May's speech today, only to be expected of course,  project fear is back with a vengeance!
It didn't work last time with the likes of Osbourne, Carney, and other experts being proven wrong on the immediate effects of voting out.  Hopefully it won't work this time if May lives sticks to her guns and lives up to her reputation of being 'a bloody difficult woman' !

The EU are determined to use the Irish border as a means to break Brexit and keep us in the Single Market, the Customs Union, and the ECJ, or Brexit in name only, and they're wheeling out every clapped-out old binosaur they can find in an effort to overturn the vote.
If successful this country will no longer be a true democracy. It will be a country run by big business, where the interests of the shareholders are more important than the people's vote.
Unfortunately for us all,  the civil unrest that would follow such a scenario would be on an unprecedented scale.

Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on March 02, 2018, 09:59:12 AM
It's significant that the EU never mention the 60 page report they commissioned on the Irish border situation.
Maybe because the report found that the technology already exists to make a technological solution possible.  They even suggest using the Irish border solution as a prototype for use across the EU.

Even more significant is the way some of the mainstream media reacted when Boris gave an example of how technology can be used in these situations.

The Remoaners have gone into a frenzy of anti- Brexit propaganda ahead of May's speech today, only to be expected of course,  project fear is back with a vengeance!
It didn't work last time with the likes of Osbourne, Carney, and other experts being proven wrong on the immediate effects of voting out.  Hopefully it won't work this time if May lives sticks to her guns and lives up to her reputation of being 'a bloody difficult woman' !

The EU are determined to use the Irish border as a means to break Brexit and keep us in the Single Market, the Customs Union, and the ECJ, or Brexit in name only, and they're wheeling out every clapped-out old binosaur they can find in an effort to overturn the vote.
If successful this country will no longer be a true democracy. It will be a country run by big business, where the interests of the shareholders are more important than the people's vote.
Unfortunately for us all,  the civil unrest that would follow such a scenario would be on an unprecedented scale.

Driving between Camden and Westminster are part of a single market and customs union, and so there is no need to stop vehicles to check that they are not carrying any goods which are in contravention of safety standards on one side of the border, or that the appropriate customs duties have been paid.

If this fairy-tale 'technological solution' existed, every border between friendly nation states in the world would already be using it.

Highlighting the difficulties and irreconcilable promises made by Brexiters and May's 'government' is not Project Fear, it is Project Cold Hard Reality.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on March 02, 2018, 10:07:03 AM
It's significant that the EU never mention the 60 page report they commissioned on the Irish border situation.
Maybe because the report found that the technology already exists to make a technological solution possible.  They even suggest using the Irish border solution as a prototype for use across the EU.


Smart Border 2.0 is unworkable in Ireland and will not achieve the 'secure' border Brexiters demanded prior to the referendum.

The Remoaners have gone into a frenzy of anti- Brexit propaganda ahead of May's speech today, only to be expected of course,  project fear is back with a vengeance!
It didn't work last time with the likes of Osbourne, Carney, and other experts being proven wrong on the immediate effects of voting out.  Hopefully it won't work this time if May lives sticks to her guns and lives up to her reputation of being 'a bloody difficult woman' !


She can be as difficult as she likes; she will not get any meaningful concessions from the EU on any of the UK's red lines.

The EU are determined to use the Irish border as a means to break Brexit and keep us in the Single Market, the Customs Union, and the ECJ, or Brexit in name only, and they're wheeling out every clapped-out old binosaur they can find in an effort to overturn the vote.
If successful this country will no longer be a true democracy. It will be a country run by big business, where the interests of the shareholders are more important than the people's vote.
Unfortunately for us all,  the civil unrest that would follow such a scenario would be on an unprecedented scale.


I love this argument most of all. Have you actually stopped to check the background of Brexit promoting politicians? Once the EU's power to protect workers has been removed, what do you think people like Jacob Rees-Mogg are going to do? Give us all more holidays? Extend maternity leave for new mothers? I say yet again, you haven't thought this through.... at all.

Oh, and good luck with your civil unrest! Hilarious.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on March 02, 2018, 11:05:30 AM
Lol!
Didn't take long for the self-appointed chief BUFC binosaur to appear  ;D
The timing is as laughable as the content!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on March 02, 2018, 01:40:49 PM
No answers.

Enjoy Theresa May's speech this afternoon  ;D
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on March 02, 2018, 01:50:57 PM
Pete B   I don't know you but you appear quite erudite and well educated and I do respect your opinion.  What is it about the corrupt Brussels quango you find so attractive??
I voted in back in the day...IN being a free trade agreement..simple as... I didn't get asked about  a euro currency a European commission a European commission a European parliament... I suspect your politics may be left of centre and I have no issues with that but look back at what Michael Foot and Peter Shore tried to tell us back at the last referendum... I as a younger voter didn't listen... but in hindsight they were right..

I totally agree, we were sold down the line.  Maybe it's a generation thing, perhaps us of an older generation remember how it was.  I remember when we voted to join The common Market ( not the EU ) we were promised more holidays, better pay and a better way of life.  I did not believe them then and still do not.  I voted out because to me Europe were using us as a cash cow, they imposed laws on us that favoured main land Europe.  Just ask the fishermen. Don't get me going about The European court of human rights, and how it has been abused. Do you realise one last act they are trying to push through is to adopt " Berlin Time " so say goodbye to long summer evenings.  Take a dog to Ireland and it has to have a Rabies jab and a passport why?  There as never been a case of rabies  in the UK or Ireland.  The people of Britain voted OUT, so all you remoaners get over it.  The government thought the London vote would get a remain victory.  What they did not realise is, the fickle voters of London did not vote in numbers due to bad weather.  London has been insulated from the rest of Britain for many years. The people of Britain voted out because they are sick and tired of all the crap.  Germany have taken over Europe via the back door, no need for a world war, we have given it to them.  I may not be as brainy as some who post on here, but I know when we are being shafted.  So you can come out with all your statistics, and you can call all who voted out, thick.  But the first rule of a democracy is the will of the people.  So let's all sing off the same hymn sheet, and get a good deal for OUR COUNTRY.  I tell you what, if they will not negotiate feck em.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on March 02, 2018, 02:14:43 PM
I've said this before, I voted OUT because I don't trust them. All these faceless people, who are they, what are they up to?
I don't trust the lot that got voted in here, thieving, conniving, bastards!

Short and sweet but not how my local vicar would put it Lonegunman .    Probably contains more facts than most the longer posts on here .
Maybe if you had gone further and  included the names Cameron , Osbourne , Carney , Blair , Major and a army of Euro fat cats it would not have gone amiss .

Even though a pensioner I can not commit time to reading referendum opinions based on speculation .
I would think my MP wishes I did rather than probing and  gathering facts that are relevant to our present day lives .
I  suggest most brexit critics are too busy building a case to suit their argument to notice the ease in which the government has given away control to the private sector  of  a service valuable and respected by the vulnerable and working classes .

Using Bexit debating as a cover to reveal bad news was that successful that I had to reveal the news to my MP of the privatisation .

I will give an update and further details when I have visited my MPs office providing I can find which desk he is hidding under .

As Lonegunman would tell you ,  keep an eye on the conniving thiefing bastards in your own back yard .




Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on March 02, 2018, 02:53:58 PM
Pete B   I don't know you but you appear quite erudite and well educated and I do respect your opinion.  What is it about the corrupt Brussels quango you find so attractive??
I voted in back in the day...IN being a free trade agreement..simple as... I didn't get asked about  a euro currency a European commission a European commission a European parliament... I suspect your politics may be left of centre and I have no issues with that but look back at what Michael Foot and Peter Shore tried to tell us back at the last referendum... I as a younger voter didn't listen... but in hindsight they were right..

I totally agree, we were sold down the line.  Maybe it's a generation thing, perhaps us of an older generation remember how it was.  I remember when we voted to join The common Market ( not the EU ) we were promised more holidays, better pay and a better way of life.  I did not believe them then and still do not.  I voted out because to me Europe were using us as a cash cow, they imposed laws on us that favoured main land Europe.  Just ask the fishermen. Don't get me going about The European court of human rights, and how it has been abused. Do you realise one last act they are trying to push through is to adopt " Berlin Time " so say goodbye to long summer evenings.  Take a dog to Ireland and it has to have a Rabies jab and a passport why?  There as never been a case of rabies  in the UK or Ireland.  The people of Britain voted OUT, so all you remoaners get over it.  The government thought the London vote would get a remain victory.  What they did not realise is, the fickle voters of London did not vote in numbers due to bad weather.  London has been insulated from the rest of Britain for many years. The people of Britain voted out because they are sick and tired of all the crap.  Germany have taken over Europe via the back door, no need for a world war, we have given it to them.  I may not be as brainy as some who post on here, but I know when we are being shafted.  So you can come out with all your statistics, and you can call all who voted out, thick.  But the first rule of a democracy is the will of the people.  So let's all sing off the same hymn sheet, and get a good deal for OUR COUNTRY.  I tell you what, if they will not negotiate feck em.

Sigh.

It's not "Berlin" time.

It's a proposal to scrap daylight saving time across the EU.

"Berlin time" was invented by the Daily Express, The Sun and the Daily Mail to piss off people like you who inexplicably believe that we are ruled by Germany. And you've fallen for it.

What's all this "they" business anyway? As we are part of the EU, it's a proposal we have played a part in, and one in which we get a say.

"They" are not pushing anything on us. The EU has proposed it. We are part of the EU. How can something be pushed on us when we've played a role in it?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on March 02, 2018, 06:25:31 PM
Pete B   I don't know you but you appear quite erudite and well educated and I do respect your opinion.  What is it about the corrupt Brussels quango you find so attractive??
I voted in back in the day...IN being a free trade agreement..simple as... I didn't get asked about  a euro currency a European commission a European commission a European parliament... I suspect your politics may be left of centre and I have no issues with that but look back at what Michael Foot and Peter Shore tried to tell us back at the last referendum... I as a younger voter didn't listen... but in hindsight they were right..

Sorry, I missed you posting this. I think the EU has many problems, much like any large institution it's never going to be perfect. And yes, it has far exceeded its original remit. But overall I think it's a force for good - it is by design a bureaucratic nightmare and so immune to the whims of populism and short-lived governments. And it is a force for good for worker rights and consumer rights. I get fed up when I hear people saying it's just a vehicle for big business - trust me, if you think the EU is some kind of corporate protection racket, just you wait until the Brexiteer right of the Tory party get their hands on our hard-won employment and consumer protections. That's why they hated the EU - it stopped them exploiting us.

The EU allows frictionless trade with our closest neighbours and I'm sorry, but trying to replace that frictionless trade with deals with China and India just won't work. In ten years time, we'll look on in envy as Germany and France power on upwards, and we're left still trying to negotiate a trade deal with frickin' Japan.

I am pleased that Theresa May did at least acknowledge the difficulties she faces in her speech today. Obviously I'd love to just call the whole thing off, but since that's unlikely to happen I'll take the soft version of Brexit that she outlined earlier. It's better than nothing. And certainly better than no deal.

Amd seriously, people: stop saying, "let's just walk away". WE HAVEN'T BUILT OUR NEW CUSTOMS INFRASTRUCTURE YET. IT WON'T BE READY FOR A DECADE. STOP IT!

Anyway, at least we can disagree on here without resorting to mud-slinging. I've seen so much abuse on Twitter and it depresses me. Brexit isn't good for us as a nation - I hate the way it has divided us. But that is exactly what Farage wanted to do.... and sorry to say, he won.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on March 02, 2018, 06:30:49 PM
Pete B   I don't know you but you appear quite erudite and well educated and I do respect your opinion.  What is it about the corrupt Brussels quango you find so attractive??
I voted in back in the day...IN being a free trade agreement..simple as... I didn't get asked about  a euro currency a European commission a European commission a European parliament... I suspect your politics may be left of centre and I have no issues with that but look back at what Michael Foot and Peter Shore tried to tell us back at the last referendum... I as a younger voter didn't listen... but in hindsight they were right..

I totally agree, we were sold down the line.  Maybe it's a generation thing, perhaps us of an older generation remember how it was.  I remember when we voted to join The common Market ( not the EU ) we were promised more holidays, better pay and a better way of life.  I did not believe them then and still do not.  I voted out because to me Europe were using us as a cash cow, they imposed laws on us that favoured main land Europe.  Just ask the fishermen. Don't get me going about The European court of human rights, and how it has been abused. Do you realise one last act they are trying to push through is to adopt " Berlin Time " so say goodbye to long summer evenings.  Take a dog to Ireland and it has to have a Rabies jab and a passport why?  There as never been a case of rabies  in the UK or Ireland.  The people of Britain voted OUT, so all you remoaners get over it.  The government thought the London vote would get a remain victory.  What they did not realise is, the fickle voters of London did not vote in numbers due to bad weather.  London has been insulated from the rest of Britain for many years. The people of Britain voted out because they are sick and tired of all the crap.  Germany have taken over Europe via the back door, no need for a world war, we have given it to them.  I may not be as brainy as some who post on here, but I know when we are being shafted.  So you can come out with all your statistics, and you can call all who voted out, thick.  But the first rule of a democracy is the will of the people.  So let's all sing off the same hymn sheet, and get a good deal for OUR COUNTRY.  I tell you what, if they will not negotiate feck em.

Sigh.

It's not "Berlin" time.

It's a proposal to scrap daylight saving time across the EU.

"Berlin time" was invented by the Daily Express, The Sun and the Daily Mail to piss off people like you who inexplicably believe that we are ruled by Germany. And you've fallen for it.

What's all this "they" business anyway? As we are part of the EU, it's a proposal we have played a part in, and one in which we get a say.

"They" are not pushing anything on us. The EU has proposed it. We are part of the EU. How can something be pushed on us when we've played a role in it?

So you're not telling me that this is not being pushed by Germany.  So you're not telling me that if Britain does not follow suit, London being the financial centre could lose that status. 

So what are " people like me " Pete?

Because my opinion ( shared by about 50% on this thread ) does not fit in with yours.

You must have read one of, or all of the above papers else how did you know they printed that.  I actually heard that term from a like minded friend.

Perhaps my head has been filled with fake news over the past 50 years.

Anyway a lively debate ;) ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: oxo on March 02, 2018, 06:44:38 PM
And further more if we were not in Europe the 15 centimeters of snow we have had would have been under 6 inches. Relax chaps we will get what we get.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on March 02, 2018, 07:01:36 PM
Dipdodah - of course it's not being pushed by Germany. The EU is by design an institution in which all members contribute equally. It's not the Second World War any more! If you feel threatened by Germany it's probably just because they do a lot of things much better than we do them - simple as that. But it's not like they waltz into the European Parliament and everyone cowers. The BBC reports it was actually Finland that kicked off the debate - and that's all it is at this stage.

As for London's future status as a financial centre - well, passporting will not be prioritised by Theresa May, so yes, Germany could well end up snaffling financial services from us and decimate the City. But if that's what happens, then hey, that's what we voted for - it's not like they invaded and nicked them; we gifted them the opportunity. Course they'll take it. Anyone would.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on March 02, 2018, 07:22:31 PM
Bloody snow oxo.  Stuck indoors is driving me nuts. No football .  So too much time to waste.  Lol
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on March 02, 2018, 07:47:07 PM
Dipdodah - of course it's not being pushed by Germany. The EU is by design an institution in which all members contribute equally. It's not the Second World War any more! If you feel threatened by Germany it's probably just because they do a lot of things much better than we do them - simple as that. But it's not like they waltz into the European Parliament and everyone cowers. The BBC reports it was actually Finland that kicked off the debate - and that's all it is at this stage.

As for London's future status as a financial centre - well, passporting will not be prioritised by Theresa May, so yes, Germany could well end up snaffling financial services from us and decimate the City. But if that's what happens, then hey, that's what we voted for - it's not like they invaded and nicked them; we gifted them the opportunity. Course they'll take it. Anyone would.

The old fart OXO is right Pete his generation has seen it all before  , relax and  enjoy your football & hobbies,  ignore the so called experts and politicians , they are there to generate a stash of cash for  themselves not there country .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on March 03, 2018, 11:39:03 AM
Dipdodah - of course it's not being pushed by Germany. The EU is by design an institution in which all members contribute equally. It's not the Second World War any more! If you feel threatened by Germany it's probably just because they do a lot of things much better than we do them - simple as that. But it's not like they waltz into the European Parliament and everyone cowers. The BBC reports it was actually Finland that kicked off the debate - and that's all it is at this stage.

As for London's future status as a financial centre - well, passporting will not be prioritised by Theresa May, so yes, Germany could well end up snaffling financial services from us and decimate the City. But if that's what happens, then hey, that's what we voted for - it's not like they invaded and nicked them; we gifted them the opportunity. Course they'll take it. Anyone would.

The old fart OXO is right Pete his generation has seen it all before  , relax and  enjoy your football & hobbies,  ignore the so called experts and politicians , they are there to generate a stash of cash for  themselves not there country .

Working in an industry that depends on EU regulatory alliance, I could lose my job after Brexit if - as rumoured - the office is relocated to Germany. But yeah, I'll just relax and enjoy my hobbies.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on March 03, 2018, 11:46:29 AM
Dipdodah - of course it's not being pushed by Germany. The EU is by design an institution in which all members contribute equally. It's not the Second World War any more! If you feel threatened by Germany it's probably just because they do a lot of things much better than we do them - simple as that. But it's not like they waltz into the European Parliament and everyone cowers. The BBC reports it was actually Finland that kicked off the debate - and that's all it is at this stage.

As for London's future status as a financial centre - well, passporting will not be prioritised by Theresa May, so yes, Germany could well end up snaffling financial services from us and decimate the City. But if that's what happens, then hey, that's what we voted for - it's not like they invaded and nicked them; we gifted them the opportunity. Course they'll take it. Anyone would.

The old fart OXO is right Pete his generation has seen it all before  , relax and  enjoy your football & hobbies,  ignore the so called experts and politicians , they are there to generate a stash of cash for  themselves not there country .

Working in an industry that depends on EU regulatory alliance, I could lose my job after Brexit if - as rumoured - the office is relocated to Germany. But yeah, I'll just relax and enjoy my hobbies.

Certainly hope you don't Pete , in the murky world of politics  and industry many rumours are started for ulterior motives .
Sometimes redundentcy leads to better things .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on March 03, 2018, 01:48:35 PM
Dipdodah - of course it's not being pushed by Germany. The EU is by design an institution in which all members contribute equally. It's not the Second World War any more! If you feel threatened by Germany it's probably just because they do a lot of things much better than we do them - simple as that. But it's not like they waltz into the European Parliament and everyone cowers. The BBC reports it was actually Finland that kicked off the debate - and that's all it is at this stage.

As for London's future status as a financial centre - well, passporting will not be prioritised by Theresa May, so yes, Germany could well end up snaffling financial services from us and decimate the City. But if that's what happens, then hey, that's what we voted for - it's not like they invaded and nicked them; we gifted them the opportunity. Course they'll take it. Anyone would.

The old fart OXO is right Pete his generation has seen it all before  , relax and  enjoy your football & hobbies,  ignore the so called experts and politicians , they are there to generate a stash of cash for  themselves not there country .

Working in an industry that depends on EU regulatory alliance, I could lose my job after Brexit if - as rumoured - the office is relocated to Germany. But yeah, I'll just relax and enjoy my hobbies.

Not good Pete, hope all works out in the end.  Hopefully just scaremongering.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandi on March 05, 2018, 06:01:26 PM
A British contingent of clapped-out binosaurs, consisting of Blair, Major, Adonis, Osbourne, Clegg, Corbyn etc, are making an emergency trip to Italy.
Apparently most Italians are too thick, un-informed, and just generally too dim-witted to know what they voted for yesterday, and these guys are going to tell them just that in their usual non-patronising manner  :o

Meanwhile back in the UK the BBC/EUBC choose to lead with a supposedly asthmatic Wiggins, and the burst water main just south of Watford......nothing to see in Italy, move along ladies and gentlemen  :-X

The leader of Lega Nord, Matteo Salvini, when asked why the pro EU parties did so badly, observed:-

"Europe has been punishing us for the last 15 years, we are worse off than 15 years ago. Europe can go f**k itself"  :o  :o
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on March 06, 2018, 04:45:52 PM
A British contingent of clapped-out binosaurs, consisting of Blair, Major, Adonis, Osbourne, Clegg, Corbyn etc, are making an emergency trip to Italy.
Apparently most Italians are too thick, un-informed, and just generally too dim-witted to know what they voted for yesterday, and these guys are going to tell them just that in their usual non-patronising manner  :o

Meanwhile back in the UK the BBC/EUBC choose to lead with a supposedly asthmatic Wiggins, and the burst water main just south of Watford......nothing to see in Italy, move along ladies and gentlemen  :-X

The leader of Lega Nord, Matteo Salvini, when asked why the pro EU parties did so badly, observed:-

"Europe has been punishing us for the last 15 years, we are worse off than 15 years ago. Europe can go f**k itself"  :o  :o

Nearly 50% of the voters, voted for non EU supporting parties.  I hope I am wrong, but Europe seems to be heading ever so far to the right.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on March 07, 2018, 08:14:05 AM
And yet you're actively supporting a new political landscape that will be an absolute *dream* for the far right (and the far left for that matter - they're both as bad as each other, so please don't try and paint me as some salivating Communist Corbyn fan!).

I mean, do you not ever stop to look at the people who crave the demise of the EU - the unapologetic but genuine fascists and racists (and I'm not talking about the average voter by the way, but the figureheads who are pushing this), as well as those who probably wouldn't mind a bit of socialist totalitarianism - and wonder, just perhaps, if there's something a bit iffy about it all? There's nothing about the rhetoric of nationalism espoused by pro-Brexit politicians that concerns you a tad?

Or what about the noticeable rise in anti-intellectualism? Nothing about that troubles you? I mean, it really wasn't that long ago that the same people who would push for Brexit today were marching teachers, doctors, lawyers, professors, journalists and academics out into the woods in Poland and shooting them in the head. Not a *bit* suspicious? I'm just saying, because nationalism *always* ends up going one way.... and it's never a good one.

I'm not saying Michael Gove is a genocidal maniac, of course. Nor is Daniel Hannan. But then again, these things always start with a softening of the norms of civilised society, something Donald Trump is doing over in the States too.

Nationalism - whether it's from the far right or the far left - is an absolute disease. It's almost like none of history's most salient and bloodiest lessons have been learned.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on March 07, 2018, 10:22:56 AM
"Nationalism - whether it's from the far right or the far left - is an absolute disease. It's almost like none of history's most salient and bloodiest lessons have been learned."

a valid point Pete...however when you see the landscape of the country you grew up in being changed irrevocably and not always for the better by a religion/mind set so totally alien to our own at what point do you say "enough"??
please please do not point the far right/racist/fascist finger at me... i can assure i am none of those.
but however much i disagreed with politicians in the past i can see their statements coming to reality.. this is both sad and VERY frightening.
i have more time behind me than i have in front of me and what world my grandkids will grow up into saddens.
this is not just nostalgic rant from an older bloke but a genuine fear.
the far right (a loathe some group) will rise due to the appeasement being done daily by governments.
the far left now is a mouthy group who simply try to shout down any body with opposing thoughts..
i see Luton/Oldham/Blackburn/Southall where "british" people are carrying posters etc DEMANDING  the end of the West and our culture.
it doesn't bode well
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on March 07, 2018, 12:30:57 PM
"Nationalism - whether it's from the far right or the far left - is an absolute disease. It's almost like none of history's most salient and bloodiest lessons have been learned."

a valid point Pete...however when you see the landscape of the country you grew up in being changed irrevocably and not always for the better by a religion/mind set so totally alien to our own at what point do you say "enough"??
please please do not point the far right/racist/fascist finger at me... i can assure i am none of those.
but however much i disagreed with politicians in the past i can see their statements coming to reality.. this is both sad and VERY frightening.
i have more time behind me than i have in front of me and what world my grandkids will grow up into saddens.
this is not just nostalgic rant from an older bloke but a genuine fear.
the far right (a loathe some group) will rise due to the appeasement being done daily by governments.
the far left now is a mouthy group who simply try to shout down any body with opposing thoughts..
i see Luton/Oldham/Blackburn/Southall where "british" people are carrying posters etc DEMANDING  the end of the West and our culture.
it doesn't bode well

Certainly did not point the finger at you - I quite clearly stated I was referring to political figureheads rather than ordinary voters. Although you have just alluded to Muslims there, and I'm not sure what they have to do with the EU?

Something that HAS been blamed on the EU is the demise of the fishing industry. Nigel Farage and his ilk said that Brexit would mean we could "take back control" of our waters by ditching the CFP. This is palpable nonsense, and indeed within the last hour the EU has stated it will only be offering us a deal in which "existing reciprocal access to fishing waters and resources [will] be maintained." So basically, nothing will change in the fishing industry.

So Farage was lying.

Wonder why he lied? Puzzling.... isn't it?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on March 07, 2018, 03:36:16 PM
:) never thought you were pointing at me Pete, however.. anything said not totally PC ends up with a race card etc being bandied .. its just an easy response by some (not you)
i did allude to a group that now move amongst us.. with Merkel thinking its just dandy to let 000's more come in will be a disaster. some will assimilate and get on with it.. some will feel alien and sadly some will BE MADE to feel alien. These will become a huge problem. So it is an EU problem.
i have some very good Hindu friends and talking to them is worrying.. not only when they speak about India but Southall  (which is the adjacent borough to them) All sorts of issues, rarely reported for fear of "upsetting" people
the streets are at a standstill near one mosque because they're on their knees in the street as they all cant get in.. and they will not move... the police treat it as a "no go " zone.
is this right?
Did the fear of upsetting the grooming gangs in Rotherham and Rochdale  benefit the girls families??

 again how far will this go until EDL types say "F you"... and it kicks off.
i worry for my friends .. they have brown faces but observe our laws etc, but these far right doylems will only see a non white face

i tapped this out with a heavy heart Pete.....
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on March 08, 2018, 09:38:00 AM
:) never thought you were pointing at me Pete, however.. anything said not totally PC ends up with a race card etc being bandied .. its just an easy response by some (not you)
i did allude to a group that now move amongst us.. with Merkel thinking its just dandy to let 000's more come in will be a disaster. some will assimilate and get on with it.. some will feel alien and sadly some will BE MADE to feel alien. These will become a huge problem. So it is an EU problem.
i have some very good Hindu friends and talking to them is worrying.. not only when they speak about India but Southall  (which is the adjacent borough to them) All sorts of issues, rarely reported for fear of "upsetting" people
the streets are at a standstill near one mosque because they're on their knees in the street as they all cant get in.. and they will not move... the police treat it as a "no go " zone.
is this right?
Did the fear of upsetting the grooming gangs in Rotherham and Rochdale  benefit the girls families??

 again how far will this go until EDL types say "F you"... and it kicks off.
i worry for my friends .. they have brown faces but observe our laws etc, but these far right doylems will only see a non white face

i tapped this out with a heavy heart Pete.....
Howmanynames2pick, when I started this topic two years ago, I did not want it to turn into a racial discussion.  The way things are evolving in Britain and across Europe, now makes this unavoidable. 

I totally agree with both the above posts.  I congratulate you on putting your point across in an articulate manner, touching the problem,yet not being racist.

I like the fact we are an Island race.  I like our culture.  I like our history ( even thou some are trying to air brush it out ). I like our Christian beliefs.  I like the village pub and I can go on.  These are disappearing .  This could be down to natural evolvement, and most likely is.  It just seems to be accelerating at an alarming pace.

People look for someone or something to blame.  So they vote to leave the EU, or vote for some far right racist party.
I believe everyone is equal, I hate snobbery, I hate homophobia, I hate racism and I hate sexism, but most of all I hate people who abuse these equal rights acts.  One of the main reasons I voted out was because of the meddling by The Court of Human Rights.  Some scumbag from a different nation can come here Murder rape or commit an act of terrorism but cannot be deported because it infringes on his human rights.

I also fear for this country, I, like you fear that the people will say enough is enough.  I may be selfish, but the way things are going I am glad I may not be about in 20 years time.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ken Fox on March 09, 2018, 02:07:31 PM
One of the main reasons I voted out was because of the meddling by The Court of Human Rights.  Some scumbag from a different nation can come here Murder rape or commit an act of terrorism but cannot be deported because it infringes on his human rights.

So you're quite happy to make millions of families in the UK poorer; see the decimation of the NHS as staffing levels drop; farmers have their crops rotting in the fields unpicked, higher levels of unemployment as big companies desert the UK for Europe; the housing crisis worsen because there's nobody to build much needed new houses and troubles reignite in Ireland over border issues. Just because you think it will mean a handful of criminals can be deported rather than face justice in British jails? Which it actually doesn't as the European Court of Human Rights has nothing to do with the European Union.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on March 09, 2018, 05:19:08 PM
The Government's own analysis predicts a 7.7% drop in GDP if we go the the Brexit that Rees-Mogg and his ilk so crave. 7.7%. For comparison, the crash of 2008 was 2%.

I don't know how it is in Boston, but here in Nottingham many roads are falling apart and there's no money to fix them. This country is actually decaying before our eyes.

Imagine how bad it'll be with 7.7% wiped off? Honestly. This is what we want? This isn't making the UK great again; it's destroying it. And for what? Still no-one can say.

Anyway - enough of this. Time to get pissed at York. See you there!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on March 09, 2018, 08:36:36 PM
The Government's own analysis predicts a 7.7% drop in GDP if we go the the Brexit that Rees-Mogg and his ilk so crave. 7.7%. For comparison, the crash of 2008 was 2%.

I don't know how it is in Boston, but here in Nottingham many roads are falling apart and there's no money to fix them. This country is actually decaying before our eyes.

Imagine how bad it'll be with 7.7% wiped off? Honestly. This is what we want? This isn't making the UK great again; it's destroying it. And for what? Still no-one can say.

Anyway - enough of this. Time to get pissed at York. See you there!

Yes it's exactly the same at Boston Pete ,  Brexit or no Brexit the concerns you have raised will be justified due to governments over the last 20 years or so who have continually overspent .   Without the referendum we would still be in the mire ,  spend today and leave the mess to future generations to sort it out is the strategy .   The politicians who present us the "facts" (guesswork) of the outcome are the same politicians who endorsed the policies that landed us with such debt .

In Boston many of the comments from the national media exposes these experts are out of touch .  for example "lack of intergration"   , one thing that brings joy to my heart when collecting grandkids from school is the genuine warmth between "us and then "  ,  well done to teachers and parents .

I'm yet to see a confrontation between a local and a immigrant on the Boston streets .

Often on National TV we see NFU spokesperson say Brexit would be a disaster for farming , recently speaking to the owner of a business in south Lincs who depend solely on farmers for their trade commented that the vast majority of their costomers (farmers) backed Brexit .

As for the "scum , murderers and rapists etc "  all the immigants that I converse with entilely agree they should be sent back to where they came from .     And speaking to those who have attended the scene of one of these horrific attacks will I suggest fully endorse this view .

I would say to those sitting in the armchair and listening to so called independant experts in the media,
get amongst the general public and listen to a more balanced veiw .  I have to say most our Polish , lithuanian and Latvian friends take a more relaxed and pragmatic veiw of the outcome than most of us .


Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Winging It on March 09, 2018, 10:11:07 PM
All those predictions from project fear failed on the voters, and now we are getting a project fear mark two and to be honest its getting all a bit boring now. We voted, and if the result was remain I would have accepted it, even as a leave voter.  Even now, how can anyone despite who they are on the political or professional ladder claim what is going to happen in an unknown future. They can't ! We had think tanks pre Brexit and everything they stated didn't materialise. It's guesswork, the same as the leave voters judgement was guesswork. but they had seen what the EU offered and preferred something different. You weigh up the pros and cons and vote accordingly. Calls for a second referendum is wrong. Think of politics in a football way, you are not going to call for a reply just because the result didn't go your way now are you ?

We have to accept in life that society is changing, communities are changing and to reflect on this politics are changing. Just look at what is happening in other European nations, people feel cheated, at a loss and demoralised with what I call "bu****it politics". We are now looking for someone with some sense and honesty in delivering what the majority of the people voted for.
What direction do we go here in this Country in terms of parties. I am at a loss as who to trust or even vote for. May is weak at delivering Brexit, Corbyn's mass spending plans with little in the pot would have the nation crippled within five years in my honest opinion and this is not knocking Labour voters I will add, the Lib Dems are not strong enough, Greens offer very little and UKIP are now broken. Maybe a new party should form?  Of course, these are my views and not the views of everyone else. I respect who you voted for and what your wishes are for the future.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: spannerman on June 24, 2018, 09:55:29 AM
What part of democracy do the 100000 marchers in London not understand ,if more of the population
Voted maybe the outcome would of been different but right or wrong (only time will tell not a crystal ball ) we as a country voted to leave .if we have a second vote does it mean every time a election is held if we don't like who gets into power we can have a rerun I don't think so .
I am not saying we will be better or worse of by leaving ,but to have the best chance for a good deal our leaders need a free hand in the negotiations ,without it Europe will walk all over us .
On a positive note there was a small piece in yesterday's paper Saying that in a survey 75% of shareholders are pleased with the way the stock marking is performing since the vote to leave .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 24, 2018, 12:47:44 PM
You are right Spannerman.  Two years ago the lack of turnout in London contributed to the bexit vote.  Five minutes of a ten minute news bulletin yesterday was dedicated to an antibrexit march.  Yet a counter march of over 25,000 hardly got a mention.

We have to show a united front against the EU else our negotiating power will be watered down.

I worry we are going to take a bad deal.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on June 24, 2018, 03:23:25 PM
Come on Spannerman ,  leave us in peace .  We've had 3 months of non- brexit on here , we've got the world cup to enjoy and you give Dippy an opening to get on his soapbox again . Sack May and put Southgate in charge he'll sort out the remainers . :)

More importantly we still need some strikers .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on June 24, 2018, 09:19:10 PM
 Now now GHM,  nearly 73000 views someone must be interested. 
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on July 04, 2018, 02:58:04 PM
Interestingly, following a meeting with a number of business representatives, the Government has today finally conceded it would take at least five years to create a brand new customs system from scratch, and probably a decade to create one that would work for smaller businesses - long beyond any transitional deal offered to us by the EU. Of course this won't make the headlines, but it certainly will feed into what happens at Chequers on Friday. Put very simply, "no deal" Brexit is dead, and those campaigning for one are about to be very firmly put in their place. They may well bring down Theresa May in rebellion but all that will do will open the door for a Corbyn government, and he won't pursue it either. They've lost the argument.

It's nice to see the reality of the world in which we operate finally hitting home with the Government, even as some of the hysterical ideological vandals send letters to the PM insisting we simply walk away. Cabinet ministers are finally - FINALLY - coming to understand it is a delusional fantasy and a technical impossibility. It's only taken two years....
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on July 09, 2018, 07:56:12 AM
Sorry GHM soapbox time.

WHAT A SHAMBLES. 
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on July 09, 2018, 10:34:29 AM
Sorry GHM soapbox time.

WHAT A SHAMBLES.

And yet entirely predictable. More businesses have come out against hard Brexit today. It ain't happening, no matter how many people quit.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: oxo on July 09, 2018, 02:09:40 PM
Always followed this thread but never commented, well here goes. It appears I and the majority of plebs misread the polling card where voting to leave really meant staying in and this being the case I will not be voting ever again in any form of poll devised by a corrupt British Government of what ever persuasion. As democracy has clearly been kicked into touch I will fiddle what I can out of this Government with a clear conscience just as those in both Houses do. 
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on July 09, 2018, 02:56:37 PM
Always followed this thread but never commented, well here goes. It appears I and the majority of plebs misread the polling card where voting to leave really meant staying in and this being the case I will not be voting ever again in any form of poll devised by a corrupt British Government of what ever persuasion. As democracy has clearly been kicked into touch I will fiddle what I can out of this Government with a clear conscience just as those in both Houses do.

Today is the day democracy died.  My father ( who was Irish ) fought in the second world war to protect democracy ( he volunteered ).

No deal is better than a bad deal, and boy is this a bad deal.

The gist of it, as I see it is let's stay in the EU but not by name.  Which also means no vote no say, they will trample all over us.

Well said Oxo
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on July 09, 2018, 02:59:51 PM
Always followed this thread but never commented, well here goes. It appears I and the majority of plebs misread the polling card where voting to leave really meant staying in and this being the case I will not be voting ever again in any form of poll devised by a corrupt British Government of what ever persuasion. As democracy has clearly been kicked into touch I will fiddle what I can out of this Government with a clear conscience just as those in both Houses do.

It was too simple a question for an outrageously complex proposal. No-one really understood how intertwined we are with the mechanisms of the single market. Which was, of course, Thatcher's brainchild, and something that many businesses in the UK now rely on since their entire supply chain is based upon being within it.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on July 09, 2018, 03:04:49 PM
Always followed this thread but never commented, well here goes. It appears I and the majority of plebs misread the polling card where voting to leave really meant staying in and this being the case I will not be voting ever again in any form of poll devised by a corrupt British Government of what ever persuasion. As democracy has clearly been kicked into touch I will fiddle what I can out of this Government with a clear conscience just as those in both Houses do.

Today is the day democracy died.  My father ( who was Irish ) fought in the second world war to protect democracy ( he volunteered ).

No deal is better than a bad deal, and boy is this a bad deal.

The gist of it, as I see it is let's stay in the EU but not by name.  Which also means no vote no say, they will trample all over us.

Well said Oxo

The government in its current guise is poised to fail. Don't give up on democracy just yet - you may yet get your dream ticket of a Rees-Mogg led Tory Government delivering us a no-deal Brexit and decimating the economy (but at least we'll be out and you will be happy).

On the flip side, a General Election could deliver your worst nightmare - a Lib-Dem/Labour coalition, with the Lib-Dems hauling Corbyn back from his own vision of a no-deal Brexit (one that would allow him to inflict his brand of socialism on the country) and pursuing a much softer EEA/Norway style deal.

Democracy eh? Fun and games.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: oxo on July 09, 2018, 10:32:41 PM
Always followed this thread but never commented, well here goes. It appears I and the majority of plebs misread the polling card where voting to leave really meant staying in and this being the case I will not be voting ever again in any form of poll devised by a corrupt British Government of what ever persuasion. As democracy has clearly been kicked into touch I will fiddle what I can out of this Government with a clear conscience just as those in both Houses do.

It was too simple a question for an outrageously complex proposal. No-one really understood how intertwined we are with the mechanisms of the single market. Which was, of course, Thatcher's brainchild, and something that many businesses in the UK now rely on since their entire supply chain is based upon being within it.

Pete I understand what you are saying but it was this Government who dreamed up the wording of the proposal under estimating the feelings of the majority, but now they must not be allowed to do what you are doing and kicking us voters in the teeth and demeaning the ordinary people of this Nation. By the way I hated Thatcher and all she stood for but at least she always did what she said she would not like this load of tossers.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: oxo on July 09, 2018, 10:49:04 PM
Always followed this thread but never commented, well here goes. It appears I and the majority of plebs misread the polling card where voting to leave really meant staying in and this being the case I will not be voting ever again in any form of poll devised by a corrupt British Government of what ever persuasion. As democracy has clearly been kicked into touch I will fiddle what I can out of this Government with a clear conscience just as those in both Houses do.

Today is the day democracy died.  My father ( who was Irish ) fought in the second world war to protect democracy ( he volunteered ).

No deal is better than a bad deal, and boy is this a bad deal.

The gist of it, as I see it is let's stay in the EU but not by name.  Which also means no vote no say, they will trample all over us.

Well said Oxo

The government in its current guise is poised to fail. Don't give up on democracy just yet - you may yet get your dream ticket of a Rees-Mogg led Tory Government delivering us a no-deal Brexit and decimating the economy (but at least we'll be out and you will be happy).

On the flip side, a General Election could deliver your worst nightmare - a Lib-Dem/Labour coalition, with the Lib-Dems hauling Corbyn back from his own vision of a no-deal Brexit (one that would allow him to inflict his brand of socialism on the country) and pursuing a much softer EEA/Norway style deal.

Democracy eh? Fun and games.


Read my post again Pete. I stated I will no longer vote on any issue put forward by any corrupt British Government of whatever persuasion and that includes Labour/Lib-Dems the point I am making is that they are all corrupt and I will look after my interests my way. Anyway, Up The Pilgrims there is much more important issues than Brexit a word that now means nothing.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: tom and jerry on July 10, 2018, 12:04:04 PM
The voters were lied to. Simple

Lied to re the increased NHS spending and lied to re immigration

But the majority fell for it

That's why we are where we are. Gullible people buying into lies from the leave campaign
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on July 10, 2018, 12:18:50 PM
I feel sorry that people feel betrayed, but a "no deal" Brexit was a delusional fantasy no sane government could inflict on the country, as has been repeatedly pointed out again and again on this thread, and in the papers and everywhere else.

But again: it's entirely plausible we soon end up with a different government, one that isn't sane at all. It might be a hard-right Tory coup that crashes us out and begins a regulatory bonfire that leaves ordinary workers booted out of jobs and without rights/pensions/sick pay when they do eventually find other work, or a hard-left Labour/Momentum coup that achieves much the same thing but allows Corbyn to reshape our shattered economy towards his vision of a socialist Britain.

If you lust after a hard brexit, is this really what you want? Why?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on July 10, 2018, 01:42:52 PM
The voters were lied to. Simple

Lied to re the increased NHS spending and lied to re immigration

But the majority fell for it

That's why we are where we are. Gullible people buying into lies from the leave campaign

I agree the voters were lied to.

The biggest lie being on the voting form.

Democracy!!!  At least in Russia they know they are getting shafted.

I am like OXO  no point in voting again.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Bodge on July 10, 2018, 04:48:41 PM
Well Tom and Jerry, never been called gullible before. I believe in democracy and I voted to leave what I believe to be a corrupt syndicate that misuses public funds and continues to erode countries identities. I knew times would be hard if the out vote won never expecting it would.

So now not only am I a racist and bigoted I’m also gullible. Please don’t subscribe to the view that the majority didn’t really have good reasons to vote out and hadn’t thought long and hard about which box to put the cross in.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: tom and jerry on July 10, 2018, 08:26:08 PM
And the Leave Campaign has just been fined for overspending on its ad campaign too I think

Lies and breaking the rules. Quality organisation eh?

If this all goes t**ts up as it may well done it'd be worth remembering that when we voted to come out things weren't really that bad. But it's a vote for change I guess

Interesting times ahead
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on July 10, 2018, 09:13:00 PM
And the Leave Campaign has just been fined for overspending on its ad campaign too I think

Lies and breaking the rules. Quality organisation eh?

If this all goes t**ts up as it may well done it'd be worth remembering that when we voted to come out things weren't really that bad. But it's a vote for change I guess

Interesting times ahead

So nine million of YOUR money was not spent on leaflets to advice us to remain ( short memory me thinks )

So Tom and Jerry, you are happy to be controlled by Europe with no say, no vote and no chance of change.

That is what you have to look forward.

They have lied to the Majority, they have lied to the minority as well but you choose not to admit it.

A sad state of affairs I am afraid .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: oxo on July 10, 2018, 09:37:53 PM
And the Leave Campaign has just been fined for overspending on its ad campaign too I think

Lies and breaking the rules. Quality organisation eh?

If this all goes t**ts up as it may well done it'd be worth remembering that when we voted to come out things weren't really that bad. But it's a vote for change I guess

Interesting times ahead

So nine million of YOUR money was not spent on leaflets to advice us to remain ( short memory me thinks )

So Bodge, you are happy to be controlled by Europe with no say, no vote and no chance of change.

That is what you have to look forward.

They have lied to the Majority, they have lied to the minority as well but they choose not to admit it.

A sad state of affairs I am afraid Bodge.


Mick I don't think it is Bodge you should be referring to. The ridiculous comments have come from the cartoon character which more or less says it all.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on July 10, 2018, 10:10:39 PM
Sorry Mel, I shall change it.  Sorry Bodge :-[
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Maxross on July 10, 2018, 11:29:06 PM
I was/am a supporter of the remain viewpoint. However, like it or not the result was pretty clear. I have always thought that to attempt to challenge that result as many of neoliberal persuasion have, is very dangerous for democracy. At the point where societies lose faith in democracy, history tells us they tend to turn towards extremists. And yes I know the implications of Brexit before anyone lectures me.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on July 11, 2018, 08:02:54 AM
Quote from: Dipdodah link=topic=6248.msg104593#msg104593

So Tom and Jerry, you are happy to be controlled by Europe with no say, no vote and no chance of change.

That is what you have to look forward.


No, that's exactly what YOU'VE voted for. We had a seat at the table before. Now we don't, and if we want to continue trading with our biggest trading partner we're going to have to abide by all their rules/regulations without having any role in helping formulate them.

This is what you wanted, you won, so this is what you're going to get.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: tom and jerry on July 11, 2018, 09:00:10 AM
I agree with you Pete

It was ok before - now it might not be. But, by the same token, we don't know what it would have been like if the vote for change hadn't happened

Everyone's entitled to their opinion. Doesn't mean anyone's right or wrong either, that's what reasoned debate is all about

I just hope our great country remains great in its new guise. Time will tell
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on July 11, 2018, 09:02:34 AM
Quote from: Dipdodah link=topic=6248.msg104593#msg104593

So Tom and Jerry, you are happy to be controlled by Europe with no say, no vote and no chance of change.

That is what you have to look forward.


No, that's exactly what YOU'VE voted for. We had a seat at the table before. Now we don't, and if we want to continue trading with our biggest trading partner we're going to have to abide by all their rules/regulations without having any role in helping formulate them.

This is what you wanted, you won, so this is what you're going to get.

No Pete, this is NOT what we voted for and you know it.

What is happening is an old pals act, whispering in corridors and lifts, carving up the money and being part of the gravy train which is the EU.

It is corrupt.  Take a look around you, have you ever seen the roads in such a state?  Have you seen the NHS in such a mess?  Have you ever seen the Police so underfunded?  Well I have not.  With 66 million people in this country and growing where does the money go?  I and 17.5 million people have had enough, that is why we voted out.

I am not stupid, I know how intertwined we are and how complex the leaving process is.  So remainers think we are, we have been called brain dead, phlebs etc.

We voted OUT, we did not vote let's stay in but pretend we are out.

We are weak, stand up to the bullies.

I hate Trump and what he stands for, but at least he does what he says.

We have been sold down the line, and YOU know it.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on July 11, 2018, 10:14:27 AM
The things you've just pointed out to me are the result of Tory cuts to local services. The EU is no more responsible for the state of our roads than I am for the weather on Mars.

And if you think the hard Brexit you crave will fix the state of our roads... I can't help you.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on July 11, 2018, 10:25:25 AM
Pete, surely, as one of only three net contributors to the EU, GB would be better off looking after our own, rather than paying towards other countries inadequacies.

The price of membership is far too high.

Mind you, I do agree with you on something, would the Tories put the money back into the infrastructure of this run down country?  I doubt it
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on July 11, 2018, 12:18:39 PM
Yeah, I agree our contributions were probably too high and our failure to negotiate them down certainly gave ammunition to certain toxic individuals who hate the EU for ideological, not budgetary, reasons. But on a practical level, a no deal Brexit would crash the economy such that any savings made by no longer paying into the budget would look inconsequential.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on July 11, 2018, 12:48:15 PM
Yeah, I agree our contributions were probably too high and our failure to negotiate them down certainly gave ammunition to certain toxic individuals who hate the EU for ideological, not budgetary, reasons. But on a practical level, a no deal Brexit would crash the economy such that any savings made by no longer paying into the budget would look inconsequential.

We will agree to disagree Pete.  Ever thought about going into politics ;)  and sort this bloody mess out.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on July 12, 2018, 09:13:55 PM


The White Paper confirms that Remain won the referendum.
It was always an in/in referendum, if our out vote was worth anything they would never have given it to us in the first place.

This Chequers deal has been cobbled together by May, in association with the CBI, and the EU quisling Robbins.  Its bad enough as it stands but when the EU have finished with it, assuming they don't automatically bin it off, it will be far worse.  This country is being set up to become an EU colony; free movement has been re-branded as enhanced mobility, the supposed veto on changes to EU regulations and law is an illusion, and the Common Rule Book is the EU's rule book. We will be a vassal state to the EU with something akin to the associative agreement that Morocco has.


The Referendum and May's 'Brexit means Brexit' crap has been an elaborate charade from start to finish, Brexit in name only is what she's been working towards all along.

If this goes through democracy will have been overturned in this country in an effort to keep big businesses, their shareholders, and the EU happy.

May, Robbins, Cameron, & Osbourne should all be rounded up and f****d off into the Tower where they belong  >:( >:( >:( :police:


Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on July 13, 2018, 08:16:47 AM
Ed, May's Brexit white paper crosses several EU red lines and will be binned off by Brussels, don't you worry about that.

So while 'no deal' is dead politically, there is a real chance we may somehow stumble into it anyway. You may yet get the hard brexit you crave, but it will come at the cost of hundreds of thousands of jobs reliant on JIT supply chains. It's a shame you don't seem to care about the workers who will be cast off into permanent poverty as a result. Is it really a price worth paying?

Actually, you don't need to answer that. You clearly do think it's a price worth paying, or you wouldn't still be calling those seeking to preserve business interests as traitors. Millions of people think the same. So in some ways, I'm starting to come around to Janan Ganesh thoughts, who said "Brexit is an idea whose only effective rebuttal is its own implementation." Much like prohibition, perhaps we need to actually suffer a hard Brexit for you to finally comprehend why it's such a terrible, terrible idea.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on July 13, 2018, 11:01:35 AM
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6765666/footage-of-jean-claude-juncker-staggering-around-nato-summit-sparks-claims-eu-president-was-drunk-on-the-job/

Says it all >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on July 13, 2018, 02:57:51 PM
Quote from: Pete B link=topic=6248.msg104626#msg104626
Actually, you don't need to answer that. You clearly do think it's a price worth paying, or you wouldn't still be calling those seeking to preserve business interests as traitors. Millions of people think the same. So in some ways, I'm starting to come around to Janan Ganesh thoughts, who said "Brexit is an idea whose only effective rebuttal is its own implementation." Much like prohibition, perhaps we need to actually suffer a hard Brexit for you to finally comprehend why it's such a terrible, terrible idea.

I think I agree - as much as I’d like the current turmoil to result in the whole stupid thing being scrapped, I think in the long run it would simply result in an ultra-toxic political environment where we bounce between hard left socialists selected by Momentum uni students, and right wing headcases like Rees-Mogg. You only have to look at this thread to see that. The idea that Whitehall is some sort of Illuminati organisation seeking to make us a satellite state of Brussels is ludicrous. In reality, they’re hard working and intelligent professionals seeking to do the best for Britain (damage limitation) in spite of the hopelessness of their political bosses. ‘Lions led by donkeys’ is a strong phrase, but in the right spirit here. But people clearly believe the former.

One problem is probably the fact that a genuine ‘no-deal’ Brexit is so astonishingly catastrophic that it is hard to believe. The Independent ran an article the other day highlighting the fact that if the all-Ireland single energy market is not preserved (it wouldn’t be by default), the government is looking at recquisitoning thousands of military electricity generators from places like Afghanistan and putting them on barges in the Irish Sea, just to keep the lights in NI. It’s insane. People like Boris Johnson prefer to take part in photo shoots of their resignation letters rather than think about details like these.

Obviously the trouble with trying hard Brexit and then seeking to rejoin the EU/EEA once we realise it’s a disaster has the disadvantage that we will lose our budget rebate and probably our Euro/Schengen opt outs too.

I find it simply incredible that people still side with the likes of Johnson and Davis, throwing their toys out of the pram and criticising May’s attempt at compromise. Not once have Brexiteers offered any sort of plan for the future relationship themselves. They’re simply overgrown manchildren - the small time teenage vandals who’ve accidentally set fire to the church and then sit back and criticise the efforts of the fire service to put it out.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on July 13, 2018, 03:11:04 PM
Quote from: Pete B link=topic=6248.msg104626#msg104626
Actually, you don't need to answer that. You clearly do think it's a price worth paying, or you wouldn't still be calling those seeking to preserve business interests as traitors. Millions of people think the same. So in some ways, I'm starting to come around to Janan Ganesh thoughts, who said "Brexit is an idea whose only effective rebuttal is its own implementation." Much like prohibition, perhaps we need to actually suffer a hard Brexit for you to finally comprehend why it's such a terrible, terrible idea.

I think I agree - as much as I’d like the current turmoil to result in the whole stupid thing being scrapped, I think in the long run it would simply result in an ultra-toxic political environment where we bounce between hard left socialists selected by Momentum uni students, and right wing headcases like Rees-Mogg. You only have to look at this thread to see that. The idea that Whitehall is some sort of Illuminati organisation seeking to make us a satellite state of Brussels is ludicrous. In reality, they’re hard working and intelligent professionals seeking to do the best for Britain (damage limitation) in spite of the hopelessness of their political bosses. ‘Lions led by donkeys’ is a strong phrase, but in the right spirit here. But people clearly believe the former.

One problem is probably the fact that a genuine ‘no-deal’ Brexit is so astonishingly catastrophic that it is hard to believe. The Independent ran an article the other day highlighting the fact that if the all-Ireland single energy market is not preserved (it wouldn’t be by default), the government is looking at recquisitoning thousands of military electricity generators from places like Afghanistan and putting them on barges in the Irish Sea, just to keep the lights in NI. It’s insane. People like Boris Johnson prefer to take part in photo shoots of their resignation letters rather than think about details like these.

Obviously the trouble with trying hard Brexit and then seeking to rejoin the EU/EEA once we realise it’s a disaster has the disadvantage that we will lose our budget rebate and probably our Euro/Schengen opt outs too.

I find it simply incredible that people still side with the likes of Johnson and Davis, throwing their toys out of the pram and criticising May’s attempt at compromise. Not once have Brexiteers offered any sort of plan for the future relationship themselves. They’re simply overgrown manchildren - the small time teenage vandals who’ve accidentally set fire to the church and then sit back and criticise the efforts of the fire service to put it out.

Absolutely this.

But of course, if you try dealing with facts and reality rather than baseless ideology and "out means out" delusion, you simply get accused of "patronising the plebs" or "overturning democracy" - both of which are demonstrably false. It's perfectly possible, if very difficult, to respect the result of the referendum while maintaining close enough ties to our largest trading partner such that our economy isn't bulldozed into the dirt.

We're nearly 50 pages into this thread now and there's still not been a single cogent argument advanced for leaving the EU that can't be demolished in about 10 seconds.

So let's have "no deal" then - and we'll see who's right.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on July 16, 2018, 08:55:39 AM
Justine Greening today calls for a second referendum >:(

She wants the voting paper to have three options.

1,   Remain in the EU

2,  Mrs May's proposals

3,  No deal

I did not hear the option of leave.  So let's put the vote back to the public, ponce it up a little bit, and make sure voters in London get off their backsides and vote and they get the result they wanted in the first place.  A cunning plan to show democracy lives me thinks >:(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Winging It on July 16, 2018, 10:31:07 AM
All this 'we're right and was always right' coming from the remain camp is ludicrous, name a couple of things which were predicted by project fear which have materialized thus far?!  The Brexit result was simple, people DID know what they were voting for...Cameron stated pre-voting that a vote to leave is a vote to leave the single market. People knew that a leave vote was to also demand breaking ties with the EU's laws, gaining control of our borders with stricter immigration control, bringing back control of our fishing grounds, investment in UK jobs for UK workers, money saved from the EU bill put into things like the NHS etc etc....


Why are so many European Countries now finding themselves seeing such right-wing parties heading their polls if nothing is wrong with the EU? A pattern is forming, so many people in so many nations are seeing that the EU is a broken project and they are voting accordingly especially in nations under pressure from mass uncontrolled immigration. We can't get away from the latter, it is a problem which has upset so many societies and in Boston alone is the main reason over 75% voted out.

Accceptance of the Brexit result was never going to happen, there will always be, like in football, those on a winning side and those on a loosing side. But as in football, when you don't like the result you cannot demand a replay!

I am sure i will get shot down for my views, but after all, they are just that...my views. I don't proclaim that they are right nor wrong, but the same goes for the remain camp, we believe in our views. But we have to now just get on with each other and get on with Brexit as it was a clearly understood vote both before and afterwards.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on July 16, 2018, 11:05:44 AM
Justine Greening today calls for a second referendum >:(

She wants the voting paper to have three options.

1,   Remain in the EU

2,  Mrs May's proposals

3,  No deal

I did not hear the option of leave.  So let's put the vote back to the public, ponce it up a little bit, and make sure voters in London get off their backsides and vote and they get the result they wanted in the first place.  A cunning plan to show democracy lives me thinks >:(

"No deal" is the Brexit you want though isn't it?

The problem you have is that if the stark consequences of such a deal are laid out to the electorate, no sane person would vote for it. It's suicide. And since we've not actually bothered building any of the infrastructure needed to implement it, it's a good 5-6 years before you'll get it. And that's assuming the legal issues with WTO rules and the border in ROI can be resolved.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Champs next year on July 16, 2018, 02:54:35 PM
Justine Greening today calls for a second referendum >:(

She wants the voting paper to have three options.

1,   Remain in the EU

2,  Mrs May's proposals

3,  No deal

I did not hear the option of leave.  So let's put the vote back to the public, ponce it up a little bit, and make sure voters in London get off their backsides and vote and they get the result they wanted in the first place.  A cunning plan to show democracy lives me thinks >:(

"No deal" is the Brexit you want though isn't it?

The problem you have is that if the stark consequences of such a deal are laid out to the electorate, no sane person would vote for it. It's suicide. And since we've not actually bothered building any of the infrastructure needed to implement it, it's a good 5-6 years before you'll get it. And that's assuming the legal issues with WTO rules and the border in ROI can be resolved.

Burn down the Disco hang the blessed dj because the music that they constantly play it says nothing to me about my Life.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on July 16, 2018, 03:57:34 PM
Quoting a Smiths line about your life being miserable ain't gonna build you a 500 acre lorry park in Kent.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Champs next year on July 16, 2018, 09:20:20 PM
Quoting a Smiths line about your life being miserable ain't gonna build you a 500 acre lorry park in Kent.

You have given so much evidence on a BUFC football forum that u & dip brexit who ever will always b "The boys with the Thorns in their Sides"
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on July 17, 2018, 08:09:45 AM
@ Green Hats Mate

My local MP is Vernon Coaker (Labour). You can see his voting record on Brexit here: https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?id=uk.org.publicwhip/member/41629&showall=yes#divisions
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on September 21, 2018, 06:55:31 PM


Your decision. Nobody else’s. Not politician’s, not Parliament’s. Not lobby groups. Not mine. Just you. You, the British people, will decide. At that moment, you will hold this country’s destiny in your hands. This is a huge decision for our country, perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes. And it will be the final decision. So to those who suggest that a decision in the referendum to leave would merely produce another stronger renegotiation and then a second referendum in which Britain would stay, I say think again. And the referendum that follows will be a once in a generation choice. An in or out referendum. When the British people speak, their voice will be respected, not ignored. If we vote to leave, then we will leave. There will not be another renegotiation and another referendum. Prime Minister David Cameron. June 2016.

Remainers and Soros cohorts,  please read the above.  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on September 21, 2018, 09:45:37 PM


Your decision. Nobody else’s. Not politician’s, not Parliament’s. Not lobby groups. Not mine. Just you. You, the British people, will decide. At that moment, you will hold this country’s destiny in your hands. This is a huge decision for our country, perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes. And it will be the final decision. So to those who suggest that a decision in the referendum to leave would merely produce another stronger renegotiation and then a second referendum in which Britain would stay, I say think again. And the referendum that follows will be a once in a generation choice. An in or out referendum. When the British people speak, their voice will be respected, not ignored. If we vote to leave, then we will leave. There will not be another renegotiation and another referendum. Prime Minister David Cameron. June 2016.

Remainers and Soros cohorts,  please read the above.  :police:

Can you please explain the "Soros cohorts" bit there mate?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on September 22, 2018, 08:07:56 AM
Easier one to answer for the locals ....

Can anyone explain why all the media is overloaded with Brexit ?   likewise so are a overwhelming number of MPs twitter accounts.

Yet I cannot remember the last time our MP uttered the word . :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on September 22, 2018, 10:37:39 AM
Easier one to answer for the locals ....

Can anyone explain why all the media is overloaded with Brexit ?   likewise so are a overwhelming number of MPs twitter accounts.

Yet I cannot remember the last time our MP uttered the word . :police:

He does talk about it, but Warman just repeats what his boss says. He's one of those MPs who simply doesn't have an opinion at odds with the official party line, unlike Rees-Mogg or Soubry.

Cameron: "We must stay in the EU!"
Warman: "Yes, we must stay in the EU!"

May: "The people have spoken, we must leave the EU!"
Warman: "Yes, we must leave!!"

If the next Tory leader decides to ditch Brexit, you can bet he'll back that too. He just wants a cabinet position.

You lot blather on about hating career politicians only in it for themselves. Well, you elected one.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on September 22, 2018, 12:34:05 PM

Can you please explain the "Soros cohorts" bit there mate?
.

"And it will be the final decision. So to those who suggest that a decision in the referendum to leave would merely produce another stronger renegotiation and then a second referendum in which Britain would stay, I say think again. And the referendum that follows will be a once in a generation choice. An in or out referendum. When the British people speak, their voice will be respected, not ignored. If we vote to leave, then we will leave. There will not be another renegotiation and another referendum."

There you go me owde mucker... democracy in action. Seems plain enough english even for the likes of Blair, Major, Clegg, Cable etc and, of course, the man funding these people attempting to overturn the democratic process .  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on September 22, 2018, 07:04:48 PM
Easier one to answer for the locals ....

Can anyone explain why all the media is overloaded with Brexit ?   likewise so are a overwhelming number of MPs twitter accounts.

Yet I cannot remember the last time our MP uttered the word . :police:

He does talk about it, but Warman just repeats what his boss says. He's one of those MPs who simply doesn't have an opinion at odds with the official party line, unlike Rees-Mogg or Soubry.

Cameron: "We must stay in the EU!"
Warman: "Yes, we must stay in the EU!"

May: "The people have spoken, we must leave the EU!"
Warman: "Yes, we must leave!!"

If the next Tory leader decides to ditch Brexit, you can bet he'll back that too. He just wants a cabinet position.

You lot blather on about hating career politicians only in it for themselves. Well, you elected one.

Most constituencies do the same Pete , usually no options with all candidates tarred with the same brush .


Options ?    abstain from voting ,  or the French option,  spoil the ballot paper to display your objection to all the candidates .


Difficult to understand how the tories get such a big vote in a town with the biggest percentage of household with incomes below the living wage .    Then again I would think that fact shows why there was a big leave vote .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on September 22, 2018, 07:40:19 PM
Can't see a problem with Matt Warman. He had the choice we all had, and voted remain.  When he realised that the majority in his constituency wanted to leave, he decided that he should represent their views.
Its a pity some other MPs haven't done the same thing, Soubrey, Hammond etc
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on September 22, 2018, 08:54:09 PM
Can't see a problem with Matt Warman. He had the choice we all had, and voted remain.  When he realised that the majority in his constituency wanted to leave, he decided that he should represent their views.
Its a pity some other MPs haven't done the same thing, Soubrey, Hammond etc
[/quote 
Pete is correct on this one , Matt fears upsetting the party bosses ,  always puts constituent needs last .

Like Geo & Dodgy Dave he always reminded us pre referendum that a leave vote would leave the economy in tatters within months .


Always tries to avoid the word Brexit .


One to watch for the top table ?......Victoria Atkins ,  (Horncastle & Louth ).
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on September 22, 2018, 09:26:25 PM
He's now representing the way his constituency voted, whereas before he was following the party project fear agenda.
Despite May's instructions Hammond appears to be doing his best to stop Brexit, although his constituency voted out. The majority of his constituents are rightly pissed off by his antics... I imagine the same applies to the other MPs like Soubrey, who have the patronisingly arrogant opinion that their constituents were too thick to know what they were voting for. 
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on September 24, 2018, 04:59:16 PM
I do not know about you lads, but I am sick to death of Brexit

I am sick of the EU and their mightier than thou approach to it.

I am sick of the BBCs very bias reporting on the issue.

I am sick of people coming out of their holes demanding another referendum ( why did they not vote in the first place, because it was bloody raining in London )

I am sick of the doomsday predictions

I am sick of Carney predicting the end of the world ( should he not be steadying the ship not trying to rock it? )

I am sick of local farmers bleating on about who's going to pick the crops.  Well who bloody picked them before foreign labour undercut the local workforce?

What I am really sick of, are the people who will not take the yes vote as the result because it does not suit them.

Before I get a comment about if I am that sick I should see a doctor, that's where I have been all day.  Not feeling well and now taking it out on my Patter pals ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on September 24, 2018, 05:22:49 PM
I do not know about you lads, but I am sick to death of Brexit

I am sick of the EU and their mightier than thou approach to it.

I am sick of the BBCs very bias reporting on the issue.

I am sick of people coming out of their holes demanding another referendum ( why did they not vote in the first place, because it was bloody raining in London )

I am sick of the doomsday predictions

I am sick of Carney predicting the end of the world ( should he not be steadying the ship not trying to rock it? )

I am sick of local farmers bleating on about who's going to pick the crops.  Well who bloody picked them before foreign labour undercut the local workforce?

What I am really sick of, are the people who will not take the yes vote as the result because it does not suit them.

Before I get a comment about if I am that sick I should see a doctor, that's where I have been all day.  Not feeling well and taking it out on my Patter pals ;)

I guess you didn't get the Irish border sorted then when you was there on holiday dip  :)

Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on September 24, 2018, 06:08:06 PM
I do not know about you lads, but I am sick to death of Brexit

I am sick of the EU and their mightier than thou approach to it.

I am sick of the BBCs very bias reporting on the issue.

I am sick of people coming out of their holes demanding another referendum ( why did they not vote in the first place, because it was bloody raining in London )

I am sick of the doomsday predictions

I am sick of Carney predicting the end of the world ( should he not be steadying the ship not trying to rock it? )

I am sick of local farmers bleating on about who's going to pick the crops.  Well who bloody picked them before foreign labour undercut the local workforce?

What I am really sick of, are the people who will not take the yes vote as the result because it does not suit them.

Before I get a comment about if I am that sick I should see a doctor, that's where I have been all day.  Not feeling well and taking it out on my Patter pals ;)

I guess you didn't get the Irish border sorted then when you was there on holiday dip  :)

I blamed the Guiness for the visit to the doctor, then the hospital then back to the doctor.  :D :D.  The feeling in Ireland is that they are afraid for us to leave.  They do not want us to go. ( well the half a dozen in the bar where I drank ) :D  They feel it would be bad for Ireland, being as we are a net contributor.  Perhaps this is the main reason the EU wants us to stay.  My mate in Ireland said what happened before they joined the EU?  It was an open border.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Champs next year on September 24, 2018, 09:16:29 PM
I do not know about you lads, but I am sick to death of Brexit

I am sick of the EU and their mightier than thou approach to it.

I am sick of the BBCs very bias reporting on the issue.

I am sick of people coming out of their holes demanding another referendum ( why did they not vote in the first place, because it was bloody raining in London )

I am sick of the doomsday predictions

I am sick of Carney predicting the end of the world ( should he not be steadying the ship not trying to rock it? )

I am sick of local farmers bleating on about who's going to pick the crops.  Well who bloody picked them before foreign labour undercut the local workforce?

What I am really sick of, are the people who will not take the yes vote as the result because it does not suit them.

Before I get a comment about if I am that sick I should see a doctor, that's where I have been all day.  Not feeling well and taking it out on my Patter pals ;)

I guess you didn't get the Irish border sorted then when you was there on holiday dip  :)

I blamed the Guiness for the visit to the doctor, then the hospital then back to the doctor.  :D :D.  The feeling in Ireland is that they are afraid for us to leave.  They do not want us to go. ( well the half a dozen in the bar where I drank ) :D  They feel it would be bad for Ireland, being as we are a net contributor.  Perhaps this is the main reason the EU wants us to stay.  My mate in Ireland said what happened before they joined the EU?  It was an open border.

Hope u r feeling better soon Dipdo!! I am equally disalussioned  as U. Come on what an Eton Mess! I blame Cameron for calling it....did he even contemplate a Leave Vote....not a chance!! Did he want to belittle the so called Mayor of London his ex Eton cell mate Boris the Brexiteer....Yeah. So when 56% of the UK vote out the bluff is truly called. I mean did any single voter in Bostonshire who voted out understand trade tariffs, single markets, hard borders or international freedom of trade agreements....I strongly suspect a NO there  because none of our so called politicians Do. The hypocrisy that accompanies this shambles from the likes of Gove....Johnson....Rees Mogg....May....Corbyn....Cable & so on is priceless. The EUROPEAN  Union won't budge a 16th of an inch....Chequers was an afterthought from a bunch of sycophant Remainers. Deal or no Deal.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on September 24, 2018, 11:05:52 PM
I do not know about you lads, but I am sick to death of Brexit

You started it!   ;D
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on September 25, 2018, 10:06:37 AM
Can't see a problem with Matt Warman. He had the choice we all had, and voted remain.  When he realised that the majority in his constituency wanted to leave, he decided that he should represent their views.
Its a pity some other MPs haven't done the same thing, Soubrey, Hammond etc

Let's say there's another election and out of all the mess we end up with some kind of Tory-led coalition and the new PM says "we're gonna cancel Brexit", I reckon Warman would just go "yeah, we're gonna cancel Brexit!", regardless of what people on Boston actually voted for. That's my point.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on September 25, 2018, 12:45:26 PM
Can't see a problem with Matt Warman. He had the choice we all had, and voted remain.  When he realised that the majority in his constituency wanted to leave, he decided that he should represent their views.
Its a pity some other MPs haven't done the same thing, Soubrey, Hammond etc

Ed ,  if Matt is fighting our corner we are doomed .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: youngchubby69 on September 30, 2018, 08:29:19 AM
I don't normally comment on politics as I think they are all on the take and in it for themselves.
As my late Grandfather would say "they all piss in the same pot boy".
I really don't think the average man will see much change to their lives and business people will always find a way to do business with each other, that's what they have done for centuries.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on October 02, 2018, 09:21:40 AM
Theresa May's decided to go for a non-discriminatory immigration policy going forward that doesn't favour people from the EU, but merely judges people based on skills.

And therein lies the crux of the issue: no-one from the UK wants to pick cabbages around Boston, and farmers can't afford to pay people from the UK enough to make the dismal work enticing enough.

So we'll need foreign labour regardless - it's just now more likely to come from somewhere else, e.g South East Asia or Africa, because they'll do the work for even LESS than the eastern Europeans. Which I imagine is going to go down really, really well with all the local "send 'em home" types.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on October 02, 2018, 10:25:44 AM
Why would they come from so far away?
You are either skilled or you are not??
Doesnt Australia amongst others use a points system??
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on October 02, 2018, 10:50:28 AM
Why would they come from so far away?
You are either skilled or you are not??
Doesnt Australia amongst others use a points system??

Who do you think picks fruit in Australia? It isn't Australians - and the labour they use for that kind of work is not covered by a points system. It's seasonal labour covered by temporary visas. That's exactly how it will end up working here.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on October 02, 2018, 11:37:28 AM
Theresa May's decided to go for a non-discriminatory immigration policy going forward that doesn't favour people from the EU, but merely judges people based on skills.

And therein lies the crux of the issue: no-one from the UK wants to pick cabbages around Boston, and farmers can't afford to pay people from the UK enough to make the dismal work enticing enough.

So we'll need foreign labour regardless - it's just now more likely to come from somewhere else, e.g South East Asia or Africa, because they'll do the work for even LESS than the eastern Europeans. Which I imagine is going to go down really, really well with all the local "send 'em home" types.

Being born in a farming community I saw this local labour problem evolve .  Basicly the workers protested with their feet and walked away sick and tired of having to graft hard to buy a bike while the farmers drove around in Jags .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: youngchubby69 on October 02, 2018, 02:16:05 PM
Theresa May's decided to go for a non-discriminatory immigration policy going forward that doesn't favour people from the EU, but merely judges people based on skills.

And therein lies the crux of the issue: no-one from the UK wants to pick cabbages around Boston, and farmers can't afford to pay people from the UK enough to make the dismal work enticing enough.

So we'll need foreign labour regardless - it's just now more likely to come from somewhere else, e.g South East Asia or Africa, because they'll do the work for even LESS than the eastern Europeans. Which I imagine is going to go down really, really well with all the local "send 'em home" types.

Being born in a farming community I saw this local labour problem evolve .  Basicly the workers protested with their feet and walked away sick and tired of having to graft hard to buy a bike while the farmers drove around in Jags .
You never see a farmer riding a push bike.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Martyn Bishop on October 02, 2018, 03:07:11 PM
There's an interesting article on the BBC News website at the moment showing what proportion of EU workers we use from various industries.(www.bbc.uk/news/business-45720390). Food and Drink for instance uses 25%, while Health uses 5% which I thought would have been more.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on October 02, 2018, 04:51:47 PM
I remember a few years back asking a guy if he still worked on the land.

He said no.   He said that he used to work piece work, start at daylight work till early afternoon and earn a good wage.

The migrant workers came in and undercut the local workforce.  He said suddenly he was on an hourly rate, working longer hours and earning half what he was earning before.

I cannot verify if the above is true, but with pressure from the supermarkets I can see farmers taking this option.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: aggy on October 02, 2018, 05:06:40 PM
Minimum wage too soon became the default maximum wage for the many greedy bosses in industries that relied on peicework.
A problem of our own making not migrants.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on October 03, 2018, 08:20:56 AM
I remember a few years back asking a guy if he still worked on the land.

He said no.   He said that he used to work piece work, start at daylight work till early afternoon and earn a good wage.

The migrant workers came in and undercut the local workforce.  He said suddenly he was on an hourly rate, working longer hours and earning half what he was earning before.

I cannot verify if the above is true, but with pressure from the supermarkets I can see farmers taking this option.

Local students used to do this kind of stuff too. I know - I used to do it in various places up near Lincoln. Even back in the early 2000s, us students (lots from Lincoln Uni and DMU, also trainee teachers and A-level college kids) were surrounded by foreign workers - not eastern European at that point, but from places like Iraq and Kosovo. I also remember a fair amount of lads from Ireland. The money wasn't actually that bad if you were prepared to graft a 12 hour night shift. It was certainly much better than going to work in a pub or shop, which was the preferred part-time vocation of 95% of students. But still, very VERY few locals did it as a proper full-time, long term job. Perhaps one or two from what I recall.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on October 03, 2018, 09:26:17 AM
I used to do it in my youth, bean pulling, strawberry picking and bulb picking.  Never made a lot, but kept me out of trouble in the school holidays.  I am older than you, so a lot of locals, maybe the odd Irishman.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Bostonshire on October 07, 2018, 04:25:40 PM
Been from the farming area the only thing that crashed the farming is the supermarkets. Not the migrants....
Take a bit of broc for example. Inflation as gone up but the farms are still getting prices from 10 years ago. Out of that the farms cost as gone up so its just unrealistic for farms to be able to pay £15-£20 a hour like they did
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Winging It on October 07, 2018, 10:33:35 PM
I used to do it in my youth, bean pulling, strawberry picking and bulb picking.  Never made a lot, but kept me out of trouble in the school holidays.  I am older than you, so a lot of locals, maybe the odd Irishman.
The influx of Irish farm workers from the 1900's onwards echo the same sort of issues as that seen today. They came in their thousands to the UK and during the war years, while Englishmen were keeping the peace in Ireland on just 1s a day, these Irish farm workers, doing the job of these aforementioned Englishmen, were earning 7s 6d. Needless to say, this eventually caused great unrest. During the period of the 'Irish invasion' as some put it, there was also a rise in criminal disorderly conduct, much related to drink. Now step forward over a hundred years and the issues seen now do in many ways echo those of the past.

I too have done farm and land work in my youth. Over 12 years on a strawberry farm, along with cropping veg, bagging onions and potato grading etc. Was hard work, but my co workers were all UK nationals too. So when I hear this 'locals won't do the work', there is always a raised eyebrow from me.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on October 08, 2018, 08:04:58 AM
" The locals won't do the work "  This may now be true.  We have lost a generation of local land workers. >:(.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on October 14, 2018, 09:42:48 AM
Recently overheard some 12 year old school kids using ‘you’re a big Brexiteer’ as a casual insult to each other.

Chaps, I don’t think history and future generations are going to judge Brexit very kindly.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ernie100 on October 14, 2018, 11:28:55 AM
Recently overheard some 12 year old school kids using ‘you’re a big Brexiteer’ as a casual insult to each other.

Chaps, I don’t think history and future generations are going to judge Brexit very kindly.

Nor does my generation look too kindly on our joining the Common Market (we didn't have a referendum) that's led to all this hassle.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on October 14, 2018, 11:56:33 AM
Recently overheard some 12 year old school kids using ‘you’re a big Brexiteer’ as a casual insult to each other.

Chaps, I don’t think history and future generations are going to judge Brexit very kindly.

Adam I think most posters on here will not pay too much attention to a comment by kids made on a subject which like it or not no one knows the correct answer to.    An unprecedented event with no history to form a judgement on .
By the time they get to voting age they will maybe have some evidence to judge if their comment was appropiate or not .

Predictions a tricky business!  eg for 70 years I have regulary supported the Pilgrims , on Patter Predictions  like most others I fail to predict the correct score ,  which is a far easier subject for us to predict than Brexit .


Predictions by my MP Matt Warman , Geo and Dave assurred me two years ago that a LEAVE vote would overnight leave us with many becoming unemployed , homes repossessed and derelict industrial estates .
On an increasing scale since then my mate Matt keeps reminding us that locally job numbers are increasing , house building is booming and we have some booming businesses .
How's it look from where you are Adam ?

And lets not forget on the other flank we had IDS (remember him ? the minister who claimed he could live in his £2k mansion on £50 (fifty)a week )  advocating leave to create monies for the NHS and the vulnerable .  Ironic that  millions of the vulnerable are/or soon will be having to take payday loans which they will never be able to repay , and only eat courtesy of the food banks .  This the outcome of the "improved" benifit system (UC) introduced by IDS ,   which has cost the taxpayer £billions .

My hope Adam is that these kids along with others when  becoming adults may well be better judges of the integrity of politicions than todays generation of voters are .are.




 


Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on October 14, 2018, 12:42:57 PM
It will be interesting to see what comes out of the EU Summit meeting this week ~ more Cabinet resignations are likely with May sticking to her guns on keeping us in the Customs Union indefinitely  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on October 15, 2018, 08:28:29 AM
Can't see any way for May to escape this. There is absolutely no deal she can reach that will satisfy the remainers in her party, or the hardline Brexiters, or the DUP, or the EU.

GE followed by a Corbyn government with a tiny majority would be my guess at this point - at which point all bets are off for what happens next. I think we are in for an extraordinary and highly destructive few months.

Still. Immigrants. Boo.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on October 15, 2018, 04:42:06 PM
Can't see any way for May to escape this. There is absolutely no deal she can reach that will satisfy the remainers in her party, or the hardline Brexiters, or the DUP, or the EU.

GE followed by a Corbyn government with a tiny majority would be my guess at this point - at which point all bets are off for what happens next. I think we are in for an extraordinary and highly destructive few months.

Still. Immigrants. Boo.

agree with everything above until the final "summary" ,,,if you believe its purely about immigrants i believe you are wrong..
maybe its about paying more in than we get out?
maybe its about an unnecessary parliament in Brussels?
maybe its about an unnecessary European commission ?
We voted "in" to a Common Market... a free trade area..did it need parliament/commissions to sort it?
 despite all the warnings from Michael Foot, Peter Shore, Tony Benn that this would lead to, well, where we are now!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on October 16, 2018, 08:01:03 AM
Can't see any way for May to escape this. There is absolutely no deal she can reach that will satisfy the remainers in her party, or the hardline Brexiters, or the DUP, or the EU.

GE followed by a Corbyn government with a tiny majority would be my guess at this point - at which point all bets are off for what happens next. I think we are in for an extraordinary and highly destructive few months.

Still. Immigrants. Boo.

agree with everything above until the final "summary" ,,,if you believe its purely about immigrants i believe you are wrong..
maybe its about paying more in than we get out?
maybe its about an unnecessary parliament in Brussels?
maybe its about an unnecessary European commission ?
We voted "in" to a Common Market... a free trade area..did it need parliament/commissions to sort it?
 despite all the warnings from Michael Foot, Peter Shore, Tony Benn that this would lead to, well, where we are now!


Come off it. It takes literally three seconds to Google research that shows the main reason people voted out was to control immigration and "regain control of our borders" (http://csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/?p=1153).

It's therefore perplexing, but not surprising, that these same people are now happy *not* to control our borders by leaving the RoI-NI border completely open. I've heard so many Brexit fans going, "well, we don't want a border." Okay. So if you're a Polish lad and want to come work in Boston, you'd simply need to fly to Dublin as an EU citizen, drive up to Belfast, ferry to the UK and boom: welcome to West Street.

Honestly. It's almost like vast swathes of our population have simply given up thinking things through.

Also: I find it depressing that you continue to talk about the EU as something that was inflicted upon us, when the democratically-elected British governments of the 70s, 80s and 90s all played active roles in its formation, as well as the creation of the very same rules and red lines that the EU are supposedly 'bullies' for sticking to. WE helped create those rules. WE voted in the politicians that helped write them. They are OUR rules, just as much as France's, or Germany's.

I thought you lot were all about respecting the will of the people?  ;D
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on October 16, 2018, 09:22:17 AM
Pete, you still don't get it ( or maybe you do ).  Please, give we who voted leave some credit.

You try to say we had a simplistic approach in reaching our decision to vote out.  I have been a working man all my life ( voting Labour, pint with my mates and for my sins watching Boston on a Saturday )  I may not have gone to university but I know when something is wrong.  The EU is so wrong on many levels,

It is a bully, controlled by two nations.  It is corrupt, controlled by un-elected pen pushers on salaries and pensions that are obscene ( that is why we will never leave, there are too many fingers in the pie).  It is a democracy in name only. The same as this government when May sells us down the line.  I  was sick to death of Brussels bringing in laws to suit some German or French minority at the expense of 1000's in the UK.  I was fed up with the UK giving our money away to fund bird brain ideas in some Eastern European back water.  It peeved me when I heard every year that the UK was one of only three net contributors.  My blood boils when I have to wait four hours in A&E (in an hospital which I helped pay for ) because of a 30% increase in our local population due to the migrant influx.  I hated the fact that Westminster was only a puppet, passing laws that were overturned in a city 100's of miles away on main land Europe.

I voted for self government
I voted for control of our finances
I voted for freedom to trade with ever we thought fit
I voted for control of our borders

We opened our borders to all.  Our little town was swamped.  No new doctors, no new schools, a hospital struggling to cope, a smaller police force, no new houses and very little support for migrant workers.

We were given NO extra money to address these problems.

THAT IS WHY I AND MANY OTHERS VOTED LEAVE.

The deal has already been done.  We have been sold down the line.  May will keep us in a transitional period.  We will pay £39 billion to line their coffers and have no say in anything.  The Bullies have won.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on October 16, 2018, 10:54:17 AM
Spot on Dipodah.
The whole thing has been an elaborate charade from the start.  If we do leave at all it will be Brexit in name only, and we will be a vassal state in the German led Federal Republic of Europe. As Boris put it, we will be paraded in manacles like Caratacus as a warning of what happens if you dare to try to leave the EU.
The only chance we have is if there's more resignations from the cabinet, and they put someone who actually voted leave in charge... I'm not holding my breath on that one :(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on October 16, 2018, 11:48:02 AM
Spot on Dipodah.
The whole thing has been an elaborate charade from the start.  If we do leave at all it will be Brexit in name only, and we will be a vassal state in the German led Federal Republic of Europe. As Boris put it, we will be paraded in manacles like Caratacus as a warning of what happens if you dare to try to leave the EU.
The only chance we have is if there's more resignations from the cabinet, and they put someone who actually voted leave in charge... I'm not holding my breath on that one :(

You voted for the UK to be weaker than Germany, and to be a rules-taker from a much larger trading bloc on our doorstep - so why are you now complaining about it? You were warned. Repeatedly.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on October 16, 2018, 01:59:11 PM
What are you talking about?
I voted to take us out of the EU for several reasons, one of the main ones being to regain our Sovereignty and to avoid our national identity being subsumed into the Federal States of a Franco/Germany controlled Europe.
None of that involves being a rule taker from anyone. We are already economically weaker than Germany, and militarily stronger.  If we can break away from the EU gulag we have a great chance of improving our economic position by trading globally. (Cue massive deluge of project fear mongering lol!)  ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on October 17, 2018, 10:24:18 AM
I was watching Irish TV last night.  A panel of " experts  " were debating Brexit.  It was good to see an unbiased  ( non government controlled ) view.  Obviously, views were put forward by pro and anti Brexit supporters.

What I did find refreshing was the sensible views put forward by both sides.

The opinion of most was that May would stick to her word, and stand by her written agreement, that there will be no hard border between North and South.

The general opinion was that a NO DEAL would be the final outcome.

It was nice to see a non British view on the subject and not the backstabbing ( from both camps ) information we are force fed over here.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on October 17, 2018, 01:55:57 PM
It would be illegal to erect a hard border under the terms of the GFA, but it would also be illegal NOT to erect a border under international law. Work that out if you can.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on October 17, 2018, 02:00:16 PM
What are you talking about?
I voted to take us out of the EU for several reasons, one of the main ones being to regain our Sovereignty and to avoid our national identity being subsumed into the Federal States of a Franco/Germany controlled Europe.
None of that involves being a rule taker from anyone. We are already economically weaker than Germany, and militarily stronger.  If we can break away from the EU gulag we have a great chance of improving our economic position by trading globally. (Cue massive deluge of project fear mongering lol!)  ;)

Dunno what you're on about to be  honest. Because what you've just described is the UK being a rule-taker. The EU will be our biggest export market, so obviously our exports will have to match their standards - standards we'll have no say in whatsoever. Same goes for eventual trade deals with the USA, China etc when they come on line over the next 10 years or so. They're much bigger nations than us, so naturally we will acquiesce to their demands as the inferior country. We have absolutely no influence on such things anymore. Soz - that's just how global trade works these days, and you hardly have to be an expert to know that.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on October 17, 2018, 03:56:31 PM
Oh, and BTW - if, after all that, you still think I'm a remoaning scaremonger peddling "project fear", you'll do well to go away and have a read of submissions published today by the trade sub-committee of the Australian Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade as part of its initial analysis of a future trade deal with the UK.

According to Australia, the UK, and I quote here, is likely to be the "distressed negotiator" from which Australia will be able to extract "significant concessions". But - and this is the worst bit - Australia is going to wait for the United States and Canada to weaken our position EVEN FURTHER before they then move in for the kill.

This is not project fear. This is actual strategy from a foreign country keen to exploit our weakened international status. Published today, if you want to go read all the gory details (you probably should, because if that isn't a reality check for you then I honestly give up).
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on October 17, 2018, 04:27:37 PM
Oh, and BTW - if, after all that, you still think I'm a remoaning scaremonger peddling "project fear", you'll do well to go away and have a read of submissions published today by the trade sub-committee of the Australian Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade as part of its initial analysis of a future trade deal with the UK.

According to Australia, the UK, and I quote here, is likely to be the "distressed negotiator" from which Australia will be able to extract "significant concessions". But - and this is the worst bit - Australia is going to wait for the United States and Canada to weaken our position EVEN FURTHER before they then move in for the kill.

This is not project fear. This is actual strategy from a foreign country keen to exploit our weakened international status. Published today, if you want to go read all the gory details (you probably should, because if that isn't a reality check for you then I honestly give up).

Then again their strategy may go pear shape , a bit like our Brexit strategy !! :(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on October 17, 2018, 04:30:19 PM
Things may be a little clearer tonight, when they all have dinner ( except May ) to discuss how to proceed.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on October 18, 2018, 02:11:11 PM
Yes slightly clearer just now!  :o
They're now discussing a backstop to the backstop's backstop: a triple backstop in fact, and extending the transition period for an unspecified amount of time... could be the last straw for the Tory Brexiteers  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on October 18, 2018, 02:14:47 PM
Yes slightly clearer just now!  :o
They're now discussing a backstop to the backstop's backstop: a triple backstop in fact, and extending the transition period for an unspecified amount of time... could be the last straw for the Tory Brexiteers  :police:

Whatever it is ED, it will be a massive climb down, and prove how weak we are :( :(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on October 18, 2018, 03:18:16 PM
She was an inept Home secretary ( just look at our Police force ).  She is an even worst Prime Minister.  How can you have someone leading the negotiations who does not believe in us leaving the EU? >:(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on October 18, 2018, 07:37:51 PM
What are you talking about?
I voted to take us out of the EU for several reasons, one of the main ones being to regain our Sovereignty and to avoid our national identity being subsumed into the Federal States of a Franco/Germany controlled Europe.
None of that involves being a rule taker from anyone. We are already economically weaker than Germany, and militarily stronger.  If we can break away from the EU gulag we have a great chance of improving our economic position by trading globally. (Cue massive deluge of project fear mongering lol!)  ;)

Dunno what you're on about to be  honest. Because what you've just described is the UK being a rule-taker. The EU will be our biggest export market, so obviously our exports will have to match their standards - standards we'll have no say in whatsoever. Same goes for eventual trade deals with the USA, China etc when they come on line over the next 10 years or so. They're much bigger nations than us, so naturally we will acquiesce to their demands as the inferior country. We have absolutely no influence on such things anymore. Soz - that's just how global trade works these days, and you hardly have to be an expert to know that.
If we want to trade with other countries we negotiate trade deals which, by necessity, involves regulatory alignment... nothing to see here, we're not being forced into rule taking, its a negotiation process.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on October 18, 2018, 07:57:48 PM
Oh, and BTW - if, after all that, you still think I'm a remoaning scaremonger peddling "project fear", you'll do well to go away and have a read of submissions published today by the trade sub-committee of the Australian Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade as part of its initial analysis of a future trade deal with the UK.

According to Australia, the UK, and I quote here, is likely to be the "distressed negotiator" from which Australia will be able to extract "significant concessions". But - and this is the worst bit - Australia is going to wait for the United States and Canada to weaken our position EVEN FURTHER before they then move in for the kill.

This is not project fear. This is actual strategy from a foreign country keen to exploit our weakened international status. Published today, if you want to go read all the gory details (you probably should, because if that isn't a reality check for you then I honestly give up).

More project fear mongering.  The aussies are keen to get a trade deal with us once we have escaped the EU gulag, and this 'analysis' if it exists at all, is just their way of attempting to start negotiations from a strong position. Theresa May should take note, although its far too late now.
Considering the Aussie economy is outside the top ten, and the UK is in the play-offs we are not likely to be 'distressed' in the trade negotiations.  Similarly with Canada, and, when negotiating with stronger economies, whatever deal is agreed will be mutually beneficial and not deleterious to either side, otherwise the deal would never be agreed... unless Theresa and Olly Robins are in charge of course  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Champs next year on October 18, 2018, 08:10:24 PM
If we hadn't had an Etonian led Conservative government propped up by the Liberal Democrats with a narcissistic leader called Cameron who thought Leave was an exit from the Tatler: would we be in this Eton mess at all?? Putin is laughing his gas off!!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on October 19, 2018, 08:00:42 AM
Oh, and BTW - if, after all that, you still think I'm a remoaning scaremonger peddling "project fear", you'll do well to go away and have a read of submissions published today by the trade sub-committee of the Australian Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade as part of its initial analysis of a future trade deal with the UK.

According to Australia, the UK, and I quote here, is likely to be the "distressed negotiator" from which Australia will be able to extract "significant concessions". But - and this is the worst bit - Australia is going to wait for the United States and Canada to weaken our position EVEN FURTHER before they then move in for the kill.

This is not project fear. This is actual strategy from a foreign country keen to exploit our weakened international status. Published today, if you want to go read all the gory details (you probably should, because if that isn't a reality check for you then I honestly give up).

More project fear mongering.  The aussies are keen to get a trade deal with us once we have escaped the EU gulag, and this 'analysis' if it exists at all, is just their way of attempting to start negotiations from a strong position. Theresa May should take note, although its far too late now.
Considering the Aussie economy is outside the top ten, and the UK is in the play-offs we are not likely to be 'distressed' in the trade negotiations.  Similarly with Canada, and, when negotiating with stronger economies, whatever deal is agreed will be mutually beneficial and not deleterious to either side, otherwise the deal would never be agreed... unless Theresa and Olly Robins are in charge of course  :police:

Yeeees, that's right. I made up the Australian trade committee position paper to scare people. You've rumbled me. Gosh darn it (full disclosure: it was actually published in 2017, not this week - my error).
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on October 19, 2018, 08:10:30 AM
We'll let you off this time, just don't do it again  ;D
The Singaporean trade deal with the EU is signed today, but will not come into force until ratified, which could take a while.
If we do actually get out the UK will then switch to a 'short-form' version while we negotiate a separate version, but with the same terms.  8)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on October 22, 2018, 08:00:51 AM
Oh, and BTW - if, after all that, you still think I'm a remoaning scaremonger peddling "project fear", you'll do well to go away and have a read of submissions published today by the trade sub-committee of the Australian Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade as part of its initial analysis of a future trade deal with the UK.

According to Australia, the UK, and I quote here, is likely to be the "distressed negotiator" from which Australia will be able to extract "significant concessions". But - and this is the worst bit - Australia is going to wait for the United States and Canada to weaken our position EVEN FURTHER before they then move in for the kill.

This is not project fear. This is actual strategy from a foreign country keen to exploit our weakened international status. Published today, if you want to go read all the gory details (you probably should, because if that isn't a reality check for you then I honestly give up).

More project fear mongering.  The aussies are keen to get a trade deal with us once we have escaped the EU gulag, and this 'analysis' if it exists at all, is just their way of attempting to start negotiations from a strong position. Theresa May should take note, although its far too late now.
Considering the Aussie economy is outside the top ten, and the UK is in the play-offs we are not likely to be 'distressed' in the trade negotiations.  Similarly with Canada, and, when negotiating with stronger economies, whatever deal is agreed will be mutually beneficial and not deleterious to either side, otherwise the deal would never be agreed... unless Theresa and Olly Robins are in charge of course  :police:

Ok, so you get that the bigger party should expect to do better when it comes to the UK (hypothetically) negotiating with Australia or Canada. But the fact we are doing badly when it comes to negotiating with the EU is because May/Robbins have handled it badly? Nothing at all to do with the fact that the EU27 have a combined economy which is five or six times as large as ours?

Remainers warned that we would have no chance of securing the sort of pie in the sky deal that leavers promised - because the EU has its own principles to uphold and is economically much bigger and stronger than us. The outcome would be pretty much the same whoever led our negotiations - be it Churchill, JFK or Mickey Mouse. It isn’t the negotiators’ fault for being unable to deliver on an impossible promise - it’s the fault of those who pretended it was possible in the first place (Davis, Johnson, Rees-Mogg etc - the ones who have either ran away from positions of responsibility or never held them in the first place).

May’s big mistake was to spend most of her first two years in office pandering to the Tory/UKIP right and promising the moon on a stick. She should have acknowledged that the referendum was extremely close and that there are huge divides to try and bridge, and aimed to build consensus for something along the lines of Norway, plus a customs union and with some restrictions on freedom of movement. That could then gradually evolve into something more detached over time, when the technology is invented to do so without erecting a hard border in Ireland or turning most of Kent into a lorry park (lol).
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on October 22, 2018, 12:40:17 PM
The number of letters to the 1922 committee is very close to the 48 required to trigger the vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister, (allegedly).
The question is, has Matty Warman sent a letter yet?  Considering a large majority voted to Leave in his constituency, and May is hell-bent on keeping us in, in all but name, then he should have sent a letter by now.
If ever there was a time to contact your local MP it is now, before it's too late...the time for Therexit has arrived!  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on October 22, 2018, 12:56:23 PM
The number of letters to the 1922 committee is very close to the 48 required to trigger the vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister, (allegedly).
The question is, has Matty Warman sent a letter yet?  Considering a large majority voted to Leave in his constituency, and May is hell-bent on keeping us in, in all but name, then he should have sent a letter by now.
If ever there was a time to contact your local MP it is now, before it's too late...the time for Therexit has arrived!  :police:

The ERG want to put David Davies in charge, which will be comedy gold because he - like all the other pro-Brexit MPs - has absolutely no idea how the EU works, or indeed global trade. His abject ignorance of basic facts is quite extraordinary. Same can be said of Rees-Mogg and Boris Johnson - they simply do not possess the basic knowledge of how the world works in 2018, and no measure of bluster or Latin-based waffle is going to bend the rest of the world to their delusional whims.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on October 22, 2018, 01:18:54 PM
I'm sure you know far more about the subject than Davies, Mogg, and Boris do  :laugh:
Why not put yourself forward for the vacancy?

Therexit is getting closer so why not get your emails, letters, phone calls in to Matty Warman and help tip the balance in favour of the Brexit you voted for! :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on October 22, 2018, 02:09:12 PM
The number of letters to the 1922 committee is very close to the 48 required to trigger the vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister, (allegedly).
The question is, has Matty Warman sent a letter yet?  Considering a large majority voted to Leave in his constituency, and May is hell-bent on keeping us in, in all but name, then he should have sent a letter by now.
If ever there was a time to contact your local MP it is now, before it's too late...the time for Therexit has arrived!  :police:

I am still waiting to get responses from letters sent to Matt 9 months ago .  To be fair Ed I suspect all in Westminster realise  Matt is an exponent of follow the leader .  Completly lacking in balls and would get torn to shreds debating against any of the heavy weights .  Not cut out for serious politics in my opinion .





Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on October 22, 2018, 02:45:29 PM
I'm sure you know far more about the subject than Davies, Mogg, and Boris do  :laugh:
Why not put yourself forward for the vacancy?

Therexit is getting closer so why not get your emails, letters, phone calls in to Matty Warman and help tip the balance in favour of the Brexit you voted for! :police:

My local MP is Vernon Coaker.

And yes, I suspect I actually do know more about the process than all three of them because I'm not nailed down to some ideological fantasy. But it's not hard: you only have to spend a few minutes Googling simple facts and you'll be better equipped than those preposterous caricatures.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Champs next year on October 22, 2018, 06:05:53 PM
I'm sure you know far more about the subject than Davies, Mogg, and Boris do  :laugh:
Why not put yourself forward for the vacancy?

Therexit is getting closer so why not get your emails, letters, phone calls in to Matty Warman and help tip the balance in favour of the Brexit you voted for! :police:

My local MP is Vernon Coaker.

And yes, I suspect I actually do know more about the process than all three of them because I'm not nailed down to some ideological fantasy. But it's not hard: you only have to spend a few minutes Googling simple facts and you'll be better equipped than those preposterous caricatures.

Just listening to the current commons debate on our E chaos:  It's a parallel process with a international football match! They are playing well rehearsed short, crisp, passing football with a couple of decent strikers who are running rings around us. We keep humping long hopeful balls; no direction or plan.... they just mop everything up & their two centre half have cigars on. We are 3-0 down heading for a humiliating defeat & our manager is heckled & to scared to change tactics in the second half. ORDER Lol.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on October 22, 2018, 06:50:42 PM
 ;D  ;D Post of the season by Champs!  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on October 22, 2018, 06:53:47 PM
I'm sure you know far more about the subject than Davies, Mogg, and Boris do  :laugh:
Why not put yourself forward for the vacancy?

Therexit is getting closer so why not get your emails, letters, phone calls in to Matty Warman and help tip the balance in favour of the Brexit you voted for! :police:

My local MP is Vernon Coaker.

And yes, I suspect I actually do know more about the process than all three of them because I'm not nailed down to some ideological fantasy. But it's not hard: you only have to spend a few minutes Googling simple facts and you'll be better equipped than those preposterous caricatures.

 ;D ;D  Sorry Champs, this one's even funnier  ;D ;D
Pete the keyboard trade negotiator  ;D
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on October 22, 2018, 07:10:23 PM
The number of letters to the 1922 committee is very close to the 48 required to trigger the vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister, (allegedly).
The question is, has Matty Warman sent a letter yet?  Considering a large majority voted to Leave in his constituency, and May is hell-bent on keeping us in, in all but name, then he should have sent a letter by now.
If ever there was a time to contact your local MP it is now, before it's too late...the time for Therexit has arrived!  :police:

I am still waiting to get responses from letters sent to Matt 9 months ago .  To be fair Ed I suspect all in Westminster realise  Matt is an exponent of follow the leader .  Completly lacking in balls and would get torn to shreds debating against any of the heavy weights .  Not cut out for serious politics in my opinion .
Yes, you may be right GHM, but despite Matty's prospects of becoming one of the bigger political beasts being on the low side (I'll take your word on that as I haven't met him yet), he is still our local MP and should be representing the view of the majority of us who voted out. 75% voted to leave, the highest out vote in the country, so we need to lobby him to make sure he's writing that letter IMO.
If he's dithering around not knowing what to do, a bit of lobbying from the locals could persuade him to get his pen out, and that one letter could be the 48th that leads to the removal of May... democracy in action!  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on October 22, 2018, 07:29:42 PM
i actually had cause to contact our 5 MEP's last Friday night
(a recommendation from the trade body i belong to.. wont bore you with the reasons)
we apparently have 5!
the Tory lady was the first with an automated reply later that night
the Labour came in with an automated response this morning
i'm guessing the two Ukip ones and the Tory guy are not tech savvy as i have received nothing as yet.
pop your postcode into this link and see who they are
https://www.writetothem.com/?fbclid=IwAR1RfrdYUS_gYQuwVyQFQogWnxevGS23qZYRIMn4VJklJIG70sJDYCiGmVU
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on October 22, 2018, 07:49:33 PM
[quote ]
Just listening to the current commons debate on our E chaos:  It's a parallel process with a international football match! They are playing well rehearsed short, crisp, passing football with a couple of decent strikers who are running rings around us. We keep humping long hopeful balls; no direction or plan.... they just mop everything up & their two centre half have cigars on. We are 3-0 down heading for a humiliating defeat & our manager is heckled & to scared to change tactics in the second half. ORDER Lol.
[/quote]

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Brilliant
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on October 22, 2018, 07:53:56 PM
The number of letters to the 1922 committee is very close to the 48 required to trigger the vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister, (allegedly).
The question is, has Matty Warman sent a letter yet?  Considering a large majority voted to Leave in his constituency, and May is hell-bent on keeping us in, in all but name, then he should have sent a letter by now.
If ever there was a time to contact your local MP it is now, before it's too late...the time for Therexit has arrived!  :police:

I am still waiting to get responses from letters sent to Matt 9 months ago .  To be fair Ed I suspect all in Westminster realise  Matt is an exponent of follow the leader .  Completly lacking in balls and would get torn to shreds debating against any of the heavy weights .  Not cut out for serious politics in my opinion .
Yes, you may be right GHM, but despite Matty's prospects of becoming one of the bigger political beasts being on the low side (I'll take your word on that as I haven't met him yet), he is still our local MP and should be representing the view of the majority of us who voted out. 75% voted to leave, the highest out vote in the country, so we need to lobby him to make sure he's writing that letter IMO.
If he's dithering around not knowing what to do, a bit of lobbying from the locals could persuade him to get his pen out, and that one letter could be the 48th that leads to the removal of May... democracy in action!  :police:

Yes I know Matt well Ed ,  that's why I will not bother to lobby him ,  if he wrote a letter he would put it out of context .   Speaking from experience here .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on October 22, 2018, 08:12:35 PM
i actually had cause to contact our 5 MEP's last Friday night
(a recommendation from the trade body i belong to.. wont bore you with the reasons)
we apparently have 4 !
the Tory lady was the first with an automated reply later that night
the Labour came in with an automated response this morning
i'm guessing the two Ukip ones and the Tory guy are not tech savvy as i have received nothing as yet.
pop your postcode into this link and see who they are
https://www.writetothem.com/?fbclid=IwAR1RfrdYUS_gYQuwVyQFQogWnxevGS23qZYRIMn4VJklJIG70sJDYCiGmVU

It only took a couple of minutes and my letter is on its way, thanks hmn2p  8) 
A link that could help get us out of this Maybot/Robbins-induced mess, and back on track to a Brexit resembling the Brexit that 17.4 million people voted for :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on October 23, 2018, 09:54:26 AM
I'm sure you know far more about the subject than Davies, Mogg, and Boris do  :laugh:
Why not put yourself forward for the vacancy?

Therexit is getting closer so why not get your emails, letters, phone calls in to Matty Warman and help tip the balance in favour of the Brexit you voted for! :police:

My local MP is Vernon Coaker.

And yes, I suspect I actually do know more about the process than all three of them because I'm not nailed down to some ideological fantasy. But it's not hard: you only have to spend a few minutes Googling simple facts and you'll be better equipped than those preposterous caricatures.

 ;D ;D  Sorry Champs, this one's even funnier  ;D ;D
Pete the keyboard trade negotiator  ;D

You know Boris Johnson quite literally put his fingers in his ears and said "lalalalala" when civil servants told him uncomfortable truths, right?

David Davies - THE MINISTER FOR BREXIT - didn't know Germany can't sign a bi-lateral trade deal with us after Brexit.

Jacob Rees-Mogg doesn't know anything except a few Latin phrases.

John Redwood knows less about international trade than my cat.

And these are the people you're pinning your hopes on. LOL.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on October 23, 2018, 03:47:31 PM
I'm sure you know far more about the subject than Davies, Mogg, and Boris do  :laugh:
Why not put yourself forward for the vacancy?

Therexit is getting closer so why not get your emails, letters, phone calls in to Matty Warman and help tip the balance in favour of the Brexit you voted for! :police:

My local MP is Vernon Coaker.

And yes, I suspect I actually do know more about the process than all three of them because I'm not nailed down to some ideological fantasy. But it's not hard: you only have to spend a few minutes Googling simple facts and you'll be better equipped than those preposterous caricatures.

 ;D ;D  Sorry Champs, this one's even funnier  ;D ;D
Pete the keyboard trade negotiator  ;D

You know Boris Johnson quite literally put his fingers in his ears and said "lalalalala" when civil servants told him uncomfortable truths, right?

David Davies - THE MINISTER FOR BREXIT - didn't know Germany can't sign a bi-lateral trade deal with us after Brexit.

Jacob Rees-Mogg doesn't know anything except a few Latin phrases.

John Redwood knows less about international trade than my cat.

And these are the people you're pinning your hopes on. LOL.

Who would you be prepared to pin you hopes on Pete ?   
Can't see anyone fit ,  about 75% in Wesrminster have treated it as a game , they should hang their heads in shame
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on October 24, 2018, 10:37:12 AM
Since no-one in government appears able or willing to front up and admit the truth - that we can't leave the EU on the 29th of March because we haven't got time to build the necessary infrastructure - then I think we need a general election to sort out this absolute mess.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on October 24, 2018, 02:00:10 PM
Since no-one in government appears able or willing to front up and admit the truth - that we can't leave the EU on the 29th of March because we haven't got time to build the necessary infrastructure - then I think we need a general election to sort out this absolute mess.
anarchy :)
you named some names in an earlier post and i agree
however
The thought of Corbyn and Abbot (Diane not Brad) anywhere near power is even scarier.

Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on October 24, 2018, 03:35:33 PM
Since no-one in government appears able or willing to front up and admit the truth - that we can't leave the EU on the 29th of March because we haven't got time to build the necessary infrastructure - then I think we need a general election to sort out this absolute mess.
anarchy :)
you named some names in an earlier post and i agree
however
The thought of Corbyn and Abbot (Diane not Brad) anywhere near power is even scarier.

Only the most wilfully delusional person would even attempt to disagree that this is the most wretched, shambolic Government in living memory, stuffed full of disgracefully ignorant charlatans blundering on with absolutely no idea what is going on beyond the walls of whatever 1922 meeting they've convened today. At this rate, Corbyn and Abbott is exactly where we're headed. God help us.

I'd honestly rather put Steve Evans in charge than this lot or their dismal alternatives.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on October 24, 2018, 04:43:45 PM
We are  DOOOOOMED ;) ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Champs next year on October 24, 2018, 05:57:22 PM
On the in or out theme; but relating to the Conference North. Why don't we all have a wild guess at how many more seasons it will take us to get back into the Conference?

I will kick it off with....This Season, we will win the Play off final.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ernie100 on October 24, 2018, 06:22:48 PM
On the in or out theme; but relating to the Conference North. Why don't we all have a wild guess at how many more seasons it will take us to get back into the Conference?

I will kick it off with....This Season, we will win the Play off final.

More chance of Brexit being resolved! 8)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Champs next year on October 24, 2018, 07:19:51 PM
On the in or out theme; but relating to the Conference North. Why don't we all have a wild guess at how many more seasons it will take us to get back into the Conference?

I will kick it off with....This Season, we will win the Play off final.

More chance of Brexit being resolved! 8)

Does that mean you think we will never get a promotion then Ernie?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on October 24, 2018, 07:43:57 PM
On the in or out theme; but relating to the Conference North. Why don't we all have a wild guess at how many more seasons it will take us to get back into the Conference?

I will kick it off with....This Season, we will win the Play off final.

More chance of Brexit being resolved! 8)

Does that mean you think we will never get a promotion then Ernie?

If Chestnuts go we may struggle to retain a place in NLN
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ernie100 on October 25, 2018, 11:31:30 AM
On the in or out theme; but relating to the Conference North. Why don't we all have a wild guess at how many more seasons it will take us to get back into the Conference?

I will kick it off with....This Season, we will win the Play off final.

More chance of Brexit being resolved! 8)

Not this season I don't, we haven't had a settled squad, too many personnel changes for my liking.

Does that mean you think we will never get a promotion then Ernie?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on October 25, 2018, 12:54:42 PM
Quote
Only the most wilfully delusional person would even attempt to disagree that this is the most wretched, shambolic Government in living memory, stuffed full of disgracefully ignorant charlatans blundering on with absolutely no idea what is going on beyond the walls of whatever 1922 meeting they've convened today. At this rate, Corbyn and Abbott is exactly where we're headed. God help us.

I'd honestly rather put Steve Evans in charge than this lot or their dismal alternatives.

has he put his name forward? he did for most other jobs :)
maybe eyeing up Sturgeons position  (no euphemism intended)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on October 25, 2018, 01:42:34 PM
Quote
Only the most wilfully delusional person would even attempt to disagree that this is the most wretched, shambolic Government in living memory, stuffed full of disgracefully ignorant charlatans blundering on with absolutely no idea what is going on beyond the walls of whatever 1922 meeting they've convened today. At this rate, Corbyn and Abbott is exactly where we're headed. God help us.

I'd honestly rather put Steve Evans in charge than this lot or their dismal alternatives.

has he put his name forward? he did for most other jobs :)
maybe eyeing up Sturgeons position  (no euphemism intended)

Haha. You know what he's like. "I had an offer to become President of the United States but I decided to stay here and finish the job at Peterborough"

48hrs later - announced as President of Argentina
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 05, 2018, 08:53:42 PM
Interesting poll tonight,  Brexit what the Nation really thinks on Channel 4.  54% remain 46% leave.  About the same as the exit polls predicted two years ago.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on November 07, 2018, 07:00:57 PM
'A bad deal is better than no deal' now according to Theresa May...shortly to be followed by 'Brexit means Remain'... and your local MP is backing the PM all the way.
GHM you were right, Mr Warman appears to be quite happy with Mrs May and has no intention of representing the 75% who voted out by getting his letter in to the 1922 committee :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on November 08, 2018, 12:49:59 PM
'A bad deal is better than no deal' now according to Theresa May...shortly to be followed by 'Brexit means Remain'... and your local MP is backing the PM all the way.
GHM you were right, Mr Warman appears to be quite happy with Mrs May and has no intention of representing the 75% who voted out by getting his letter in to the 1922 committee :police:

"No deal" would require significant investment in the border and customs infrastructure at Boston Docks, the construction of which should have commenced months ago to meet the March 29th deadline. Be a lamb: pop your head in and let us all know how the work is coming along?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on November 09, 2018, 05:51:36 PM
Another minister resigns, appalled at the prospect of May's proposed deal.  Another Johnson, but this one was a Remainer, and there's bound to be a few more come Monday.
So it looks like WTO rules will apply... I'd better check out the state of the 'border and customs infrastructure' at Boston Docks ready for the big rush for the exit/entrance  ??? There's going to be plenty of room there for a couple of portakabins and a tardis; May has just 'negotiated' away the UK fishing rights before we've even got them back, allegedly.
The main Dover to Calais route is already sorted.  According to the French they only need 8 weeks to get the infrastructure in place, and this side operation stack is a tried and tested way of dealing with any border delays. 
So after two years of fannying around talking about non existent  deals we are back to what we voted for in the first place, to leave the EU... a binary choice according to Cameron, but I won't be holding my breath  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 13, 2018, 04:42:56 PM
The EU are ramping up the pressure on May.  Again, today they have released a doomsday type document, marking out what will happen to the UK if there is a No Deal.  With a leading ( remain ) Tory saying today, that May's  proposed Chequers deal will give up more sovereignty than we get back, the words " sold down the river " comes to mind. >:( >:(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on November 13, 2018, 10:36:05 PM
As Boris said, 'the fix is in', the elaborate charade continues!
The EU posture/negotiate while project fear, funded by Soros etc, goes into overdrive and thousands of brain washed social media trolls are unleashed on the unsuspecting British public.  Combined with the mainstream media onslaught, the net result is that people are terrified of the no deal WTO option.
The 'negotiations' appear doomed but miraculously, at the last minute, the EU agree a triple backstop deal once May has conceded on every conceivable front.  A deal which will leave the country in permanent vassalage to the increasingly German dominated EU Gulag.

Three days after the hundredth anniversary of the ending of the Great War,  May appears with her 'deal'.  Like Chamberlain waving his 'peace our time' document just before the Second World War broke out.
So now she can offer the choice of no deal, or her really bad Chequers deal against the backdrop of a constitutional crisis with Corbyn being asked by the Queen to form a government, or the civil unrest caused by a second referendum.
Job done for May.
She has her seat reserved on the EU gravy train.

Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on November 13, 2018, 10:59:27 PM
https://youtu.be/a4DKKOlsJeE
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Champs next year on November 14, 2018, 07:07:22 AM
GHM I remember this time last year we had a great debate on the future of BUFC, predominantly concerning you making a valid case for the club to be relegated? I'm sure u will revisit those posts, and you will find that you regularly posted on here; that our club would cope better financially in the Evo Stik Premier, than in the Conference? More often than not u come up with hypothetical assessments of some future club accounts that in actual fact are totally irrelevant as only the Chestnuts would have any say in. How ever any of us fans dress it up, The Chairman & Manager are doing their up most to get us back in the Division above!
Regarding the financial hypothesis that we would come straight back down, it's nonsense. GHM u state most of the club's I listed in the Conference are so much better off than us logistically & financially....seriously? Let's go with Solihull Moors, Gateshead & Maidstone.
We don't need to discuss Solihull crowds, sponsorship etc, ok Midlands catchment area, no money though....6/7th in league? Gateshead: good catchment area, in the recent Wembley play off season home crowds under 600?? Always sniffing around play offs. No major investment ?? Maidstone, Phoenix club, starting from scratch after FL not easy, worked with some of their fans, they were split on climbing Kent league's 2 quick?? They are holding their own though on a shoestring! 
Only DN knows what sort of investment would go into the coffers if we were promoted. Finally if the Chairman didn't want to take us Up he would have been gone by now, not building us a New Stadium.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 14, 2018, 01:42:18 PM
Perhaps May used rock paper scissors ;D like the ref on the other post.  We will find out in time ;D
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on November 14, 2018, 08:04:47 PM
GHM I remember this time last year we had a great debate on the future of BUFC, predominantly concerning you making a valid case for the club to be relegated? I'm sure u will revisit those posts, and you will find that you regularly posted on here; that our club would cope better financially in the Evo Stik Premier, than in the Conference? More often than not u come up with hypothetical assessments of some future club accounts that in actual fact are totally irrelevant as only the Chestnuts would have any say in. How ever any of us fans dress it up, The Chairman & Manager are doing their up most to get us back in the Division above!
Regarding the financial hypothesis that we would come straight back down, it's nonsense. GHM u state most of the club's I listed in the Conference are so much better off than us logistically & financially....seriously? Let's go with Solihull Moors, Gateshead & Maidstone.
We don't need to discuss Solihull crowds, sponsorship etc, ok Midlands catchment area, no money though....6/7th in league? Gateshead: good catchment area, in the recent Wembley play off season home crowds under 600?? Always sniffing around play offs. No major investment ?? Maidstone, Phoenix club, starting from scratch after FL not easy, worked with some of their fans, they were split on climbing Kent league's 2 quick?? They are holding their own though on a shoestring! 
Only DN knows what sort of investment would go into the coffers if we were promoted. Finally if the Chairman didn't want to take us Up he would have been gone by now, not building us a New Stadium.

Your on the wrong thread Champs ,  would have been more appropriate if you had sent these comments on previous threads of yours .

26th Feb 20 2017 .  Champs .  "Keep faith till the end of the season , Adam will take us up next season "  ADAM  IN .
Oct 21st  2017        Champs .  "A new manager must be brought  in before we get cut adrift "                  ADAM  OUT .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Champs next year on November 14, 2018, 09:20:08 PM
GHM I remember this time last year we had a great debate on the future of BUFC, predominantly concerning you making a valid case for the club to be relegated? I'm sure u will revisit those posts, and you will find that you regularly posted on here; that our club would cope better financially in the Evo Stik Premier, than in the Conference? More often than not u come up with hypothetical assessments of some future club accounts that in actual fact are totally irrelevant as only the Chestnuts would have any say in. How ever any of us fans dress it up, The Chairman & Manager are doing their up most to get us back in the Division above!
Regarding the financial hypothesis that we would come straight back down, it's nonsense. GHM u state most of the club's I listed in the Conference are so much better off than us logistically & financially....seriously? Let's go with Solihull Moors, Gateshead & Maidstone.
We don't need to discuss Solihull crowds, sponsorship etc, ok Midlands catchment area, no money though....6/7th in league? Gateshead: good catchment area, in the recent Wembley play off season home crowds under 600?? Always sniffing around play offs. No major investment ?? Maidstone, Phoenix club, starting from scratch after FL not easy, worked with some of their fans, they were split on climbing Kent league's 2 quick?? They are holding their own though on a shoestring! 
Only DN knows what sort of investment would go into the coffers if we were promoted. Finally if the Chairman didn't want to take us Up he would have been gone by now, not building us a New Stadium.

Your on the wrong thread Champs ,  would have been more appropriate if you had sent these comments on previous threads of yours .

26th Feb 20 2017 .  Champs .  "Keep faith till the end of the season , Adam will take us up next season "  ADAM  IN .
Oct 21st  2017        Champs .  "A new manager must be brought  in before we get cut adrift "                  ADAM  OUT .

Beautiful dodge GHM. Do U want me to re-post some of your assertions from last November; stating clearly that Relegation was a much better option than Promotion. If this response has took U all day ok. But please respond to my factual evidence of clubs on lower budgets thriving in the league above us.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on November 14, 2018, 09:45:15 PM
If you  think a team in the NC can survive on gates of 600 gates without a massive input of money from a donor I give up .
Simple maths tell you a net gate of £6k will not cover the weekly overheads never mind pay players wages .
I've only done business with proper money,  never ever played monopoly .

We need you on the Brexit thread ,  far better at finance than Mrs May  ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on November 15, 2018, 09:26:21 AM
Another one bites the dust, Raab gone  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on November 15, 2018, 09:27:33 AM
Hopefully May will follow along with the Chequers arrangement  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 15, 2018, 09:29:28 AM
Another one bites the dust, Raab gone  :police:

Looks like the Irish border is not sorted then :(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on November 15, 2018, 10:27:34 AM
Another one bites the dust, Raab gone  :police:

Looks like the Irish border is not sorted then :(
how come Switzerland can have loads of borders with surrounding nations but Ireland is different?
more bullying from the Brussels Boys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoO6146qM5g
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 15, 2018, 02:43:50 PM
She said yesterday that she had the full support of her Cabinet.  More lies by a person who has messed up every job she has been involved with.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Champs next year on November 16, 2018, 12:00:22 AM
She said yesterday that she had the full support of her Cabinet.  More lies by a person who has messed up every job she has been involved with.

And she's tried to negotiate a brexit deal as a remoaner? 2 brexit secretaries resign? The EU must be laughing their trade deals off (Not quite). Camerons idealists have made us the laughing stock of the globe. As Andrew Neil has just said Cameron's euro revolution has devoured it's own children! Where do we go now? Humiliated and the bargaining hand of a North Ferriby reserve 11. Rees Mogg, Gove, oh Brussels so want a hard Brexiteer to step up & the humour intensifies. Another Referendum? And the vote is bigger for leave, where does that leave us? General election: Corbyn: where has he been since Leave Vote? Answers on a postage stamp lol X
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 16, 2018, 08:59:25 AM
Tory infighting, the wrong people in the wrong jobs, resigning.  Democracy ignored. The possibility of a General Election, with a future Prime Minister so far left our future " special relationship " will be with Russia.  I think May will be gone within the week, and she deserves to be.  She has been spineless under EU Bullying.  We are a great country, despite what general opinion is.  A no deal is better that this  " sold down the river " deal.  Tear up the draft agreement, extend article 50 and send someone over to negotiate who has a pair of balls.  They need us more than we need them, as only one of three net contributors.  The thing that worries me most from yesterday, was the term " non Brexit " being used for the first time. >:(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on November 16, 2018, 11:40:16 AM
The absolute state of the bleating on here.

Fact is this: no deal is not, and never has been, a realistic option: quite apart from the fact we simply haven't actually done what we need to prepare for it, there is (and will never be) any Parliamentary majority for it, so forget it. It's not happening. Get over it.

And so the deal on the table is the EU's "take it or leave it" offer. It was always going to be that way, you've been told repeatedly, and you all chose to ignore anyone who told you. Well, sorry - you can't dodge reality forever. And if you think your saviour Rees-Mogg would have negotiated a better deal, you're on another planet.

And please, before you make silly comments comparing Switzerland to Ireland, can you at least stop to clue yourselves up to a few basic facts because otherwise you're just going to make yourself look a bit daft.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Oakham Pilgrim on November 16, 2018, 12:03:58 PM
Couldn't agree more, Pete!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 16, 2018, 12:57:15 PM
We are all guilty of seeing what we want to see.

I like the fact that this debate has been going on for over two years, and we are all still divided on opinion.  Free speech is still alive and kicking.

We don't fall out, even when each others opinions are so diverse ;D
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on November 16, 2018, 01:38:26 PM
We are all guilty of seeing what we want to see.


Graham Brady is in the East Midlands today apparently, so if you bump into him, tell him to get his arse back down south and count the letters to the 1922 Committee  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on November 16, 2018, 01:50:26 PM
We know for a fact that Matt Warman has not written a letter to the 1922 committee yet, despite 75 percent of our constituency voting to leave.
If ever there was a time to lobby your local MP it is now, so just follow the link in hm2mp's post earlier in this thread and fire off an email... he may well be a career politician, but there's no career if you don't get voted back in at the next election, which could be fairly soon if it all goes tits up  :police: :police:




Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on November 16, 2018, 03:31:00 PM
She said yesterday that she had the full support of her Cabinet.  More lies by a person who has messed up every job she has been involved with.

You're right Dip , not long now to go .     Have you speculated yet on who will succeed her ?    Put your pension on Gove ? 

Any odds available yet on potential leaders .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 16, 2018, 03:59:06 PM
The trouble is GHM who do we have? :( :(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 16, 2018, 04:03:21 PM
Dominic Raab  4/1 fav in places
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Champs next year on November 16, 2018, 04:28:21 PM
She said yesterday that she had the full support of her Cabinet.  More lies by a person who has messed up every job she has been involved with.

You're right Dip , not long now to go .     Have you speculated yet on who will succeed her ?    Put your pension on Gove ? 

Any odds available yet on potential leaders .

20/1 Mr Corbyn GHM  got 2 b worth a fiver lol
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: aggy on November 16, 2018, 04:30:35 PM
Pilgrims 0 - 2 Port.
889
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on November 16, 2018, 07:23:20 PM
She said yesterday that she had the full support of her Cabinet.  More lies by a person who has messed up every job she has been involved with.

You're right Dip , not long now to go .     Have you speculated yet on who will succeed her ?    Put your pension on Gove ? 

Any odds available yet on potential leaders .

20/1 Mr Corbyn GHM  got 2 b worth a fiver lol

You never listen to my financial expertise Champs ,   put your fiver on Gove !
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on November 16, 2018, 10:40:12 PM
Dominic Raab  4/1 fav in places

Dominic ‘I didn’t realise how important the Dover to Calais trade route is’ Raab?  ;D  ;D

Looks like yet again Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg and their fellow ERG fruitloops have failed to get enough letters in to force a leadership contest. Is there a more ridiculous group of individuals in political history? Constantly sniping from the sidelines - never proposing any sort of alternative. Constantly saying they have the numbers to bring down Theresa May and implement their (non existent) alternative - constantly failing to do so... All bluster and bravado from a bunch of vacuous cretins who history will (rightly) judge very harshly.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on November 16, 2018, 11:41:20 PM
"Is Theresa May being a bit rubbish?"
The opening Newsnight question tonight to a passerby on St. Botolph's bridge, bizarrely with the Viennese Waltz playing as background music.  John Sweeney then pounced on a couple of guys, equally bizarrely carrying a piece of scrap metal pipe, and asked the same question.
The verdict was 'yeah she is a bit rubbish as she hasn't done what she promised'.
It was possibly the most patronising piss take of our home town since they rolled into town with their referendum campaign show.  The one where they shipped in an audience of remainers to give the answers they wanted.
The star turn from tonight's show was the goggle-eyed Matt Warman who stated his commitment to the Maybot and her doomed Chequers deal.  After all the feedback he'd received on the streets even John Sweeney had the decency to look perplexed at the irony of it all  :o
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pilgrim86 on November 17, 2018, 10:37:31 AM
Pilgrims 0 - 2 Port.
889

Think you're in the wrong thread...
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on November 17, 2018, 12:48:12 PM
We know for a fact that Matt Warman has not written a letter to the 1922 committee yet, despite 75 percent of our constituency voting to leave.
If ever there was a time to lobby your local MP it is now, so just follow the link in hm2mp's post earlier in this thread and fire off an email... he may well be a career politician, but there's no career if you don't get voted back in at the next election, which could be fairly soon if it all goes tits up  :police: :police:

And the local population are getting exactly what they voted for!! We're leaving the EU! What else are you after?? Why are you so unhappy? You won.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on November 17, 2018, 01:48:57 PM
You still think that we will be leaving?
Its not something you can Google so maybe the penny hasn't dropped yet regarding the end-game.  Anyway I've got a football match to watch so I'll leave it with you  :police: :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 17, 2018, 07:18:57 PM
I am in Ireland at the moment.  General opinion among the Dublin taxi drivers is we will not leave. They also cannot believe how weak we are.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 20, 2018, 10:53:00 AM
Please listen to this ;D ;D ;D ;D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKu7-cLxvf0  please beware it has some swearing.  Sent to me from a good friend from Ireland.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on November 20, 2018, 12:14:25 PM
I knew you'd come round to be pro-EU in the end.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 20, 2018, 12:39:41 PM
 ;)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 26, 2018, 08:17:21 AM
All signed, done and dusted. ???
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ernie100 on November 26, 2018, 09:15:40 AM
All signed, done and dusted. ???

Ahh, but the dust hasn't settled yet, there's still plenty of hot air around to cause a few clouds.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 26, 2018, 10:06:03 AM
All signed, done and dusted. ???

Ahh, but the dust hasn't settled yet, there's still plenty of hot air around to cause a few clouds.

Yep
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on November 26, 2018, 10:31:31 AM
"Under this deal we are locked in the EU's customs union, we are forced to accept EU laws with no say in the making of those laws. We are prevented from doing free trade deals, and we are about to hand over £39 billion for nothing in return"

If you could somehow get a truth drug into the Maybot this is what she would say. But it can't be done so we face two weeks of her robotic lips moving before the meaningful vote.

So all done and dusted, no wonder the EU are celebrating, we have capitulated on everything and this country has been sold out.  If this gets through parliament May will go down in history as a traitor and our worst ever PM, and we will be the laughing
stock of the world, probably already are...  :o :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on November 26, 2018, 11:22:49 AM
Of course it's a terrible deal - it was always going to be far worse than simply staying in. But it wouldn't have mattered who you put in charge of the negotiations - this was the best deal anyone was ever going to get from the EU. It cannot be renegotiated anyway, so I would forget about Rees-Mogg riding to the rescue. The ardent Brexiteers would have fared no better had they been in charge from the off anyway.

As repeatedly stated elsewhere, there is no democratic mandate nor a Parliamentary majority for "no deal". This is as good as it was ever going to get. Not really worth all the hassle was it?

Of course, May's deal will not get through Parliament, so I wouldn't worry too much about being trapped in it. I have absolutely no clue where we go from here. An extension to A50 while we try and sort this mess out presumably, but what happens after that I have no idea.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on November 26, 2018, 01:08:01 PM
Don't worry folks all will be sorted on Saturday ,  don't miss Matty and his  Brexit drop in session at Boston , time and venue still secret . :laugh:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 26, 2018, 01:35:56 PM
No probs.  I am sure he has our wellbeing and concerns top of his priorities  ;D
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 27, 2018, 08:25:17 AM
I would love to be a fly on the wall in the chambers of Westminster.  Peerages being offered, bribes and corruption, all to toe the party line.  I have lost all faith in our political system.

We are treated like mushrooms ( kept in the dark and fed on Sh*t ) >:( >:(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on November 27, 2018, 10:52:04 AM
You should have a chat with Mat Warman Dipodah, he might shed some light on the mushroom situation  :police:
11.30 to 1.30 at Boston High School this Saturday the 1st Dec, or 5.0pm to 7.0pm 30th Nov at Skegness County Hotel.
He's still backing the Maybot allegedly  :-\ :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 27, 2018, 01:48:23 PM
Just changing the subject slightly, looks like Thatcher is going to be the face on the back of the £50 note.  Will not bother me, I am lucky to see a £5 note :D
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Champs next year on November 27, 2018, 08:54:03 PM
Just changing the subject slightly, looks like Thatcher is going to be the face on the back of the £50 note.  Will not bother me, I am lucky to see a £5 note :D

It's not the point though. That woman instrumented the demise of anyone non capitalist. Such a right wing abolition of working class integrity!!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 28, 2018, 09:02:15 AM
Just changing the subject slightly, looks like Thatcher is going to be the face on the back of the £50 note.  Will not bother me, I am lucky to see a £5 note :D

It's not the point though. That woman instrumented the demise of anyone non capitalist. Such a right wing abolition of working class integrity!!

It was tongue in cheek.  She was like Marmite, you either hated her or loved her.  With very good reason I was in the former camp >:(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: oxo on November 28, 2018, 09:09:41 AM
Just changing the subject slightly, looks like Thatcher is going to be the face on the back of the £50 note.  Will not bother me, I am lucky to see a £5 note :D

It's not the point though. That woman instrumented the demise of anyone non capitalist. Such a right wing abolition of working class integrity!!

It was tongue in cheek.  She was like Marmite, you either hated her or loved her.  With very good reason I was in the former camp >:(

She should be the face on toilet rolls evil witch.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on November 28, 2018, 10:11:10 AM
So we all hate Thatcher, but are merrily supporting a clean break from the EU that will allow the ultra-right wingers the freedom to finish what she started and decimate the working class in areas still reeling from de-industrialisation?

Okay.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on November 28, 2018, 11:17:50 AM
You couldn't make this stuff up  :o
Project Fear has been rebranded Project Vote, and they are re-running the same lies we had in the referendum campaign.
Treasury forecasts, a report from Mark Carney later today, and that will no doubt be followed by the CBI, the IMF, Uncle Tom Cobley and anyone else they can get to weigh in with some anti-Brexit propaganda.

We had the vote in 2016.  We were told of the possible economic problems of No Deal over and over again in fine detail, but 17.4 million people gave the government an overwhelming mandate to take us out.
On my ballot paper it was either leave or remain, there was no mention of leaving, but only if we get 'the best possible deal for the British people'. That was spun into the political rhetoric as soon as May got into No 10 and this whole process of conning the British public out of what they'd voted for began.
She's lied through her teeth for 2+years and now she is going against an unopposed vote in the House of commons by not publishing the final and full legal advice on her deal given by the Attorney General.
Spending taxpayer's money on overturning a democratic process, unbelievable the sooner she's kicked out the better  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 28, 2018, 11:48:42 AM
Just changing the subject slightly, looks like Thatcher is going to be the face on the back of the £50 note.  Will not bother me, I am lucky to see a £5 note :D

It's not the point though. That woman instrumented the demise of anyone non capitalist. Such a right wing abolition of working class integrity!!

It was tongue in cheek.  She was like Marmite, you either hated her or loved her.  With very good reason I was in the former camp >:(

She should be the face on toilet rolls evil witch.

I couldn't have put it better myself  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on November 28, 2018, 12:10:06 PM
You couldn't make this stuff up  :o
Project Fear has been rebranded Project Vote, and they are re-running the same lies we had in the referendum campaign.
Treasury forecasts, a report from Mark Carney later today, and that will no doubt be followed by the CBI, the IMF, Uncle Tom Cobley and anyone else they can get to weigh in with some anti-Brexit propaganda.

We had the vote in 2016.  We were told of the possible economic problems of No Deal over and over again in fine detail, but 17.4 million people gave the government an overwhelming mandate to take us out.
On my ballot paper it was either leave or remain, there was no mention of leaving, but only if we get 'the best possible deal for the British people'. That was spun into the political rhetoric as soon as May got into No 10 and this whole process of conning the British public out of what they'd voted for began.
She's lied through her teeth for 2+years and now she is going against an unopposed vote in the House of commons by not publishing the final and full legal advice on her deal given by the Attorney General.
Spending taxpayer's money on overturning a democratic process, unbelievable the sooner she's kicked out the better  :police:

If she's kicked out, there's a good chance you won't get any Brexit at all as no-one will support a "no deal" exit. The EU may be willing to make a few more minor concessions to another leader, but nothing significant - to all intents and purposes this is as good as it gets given the reality of the situation. I honestly don't know what you were expecting to happen once the fantasies and delusions of ardent Brexiteers crashed into how the real world works.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on November 28, 2018, 12:18:30 PM
So we all hate Thatcher, but are merrily supporting a clean break from the EU that will allow the ultra-right wingers the freedom to finish what she started and decimate the working class in areas still reeling from de-industrialisation?

Okay.
Its a funny old game this politics lark....
Back in the day staunch left wingers voiced there thoughts on entering the EU.
Listen to speeches by Tony Benn Peter Shore and Michael Foot...
Watch them on youtube...
As a "young progressive" i thought they were daft... (nb i never thought they were xenophobic racist bigots #gammon!)
Now its apparently the ultra right who want us out ;)

Yugoslavia is an interesting example of various nations/creeds/cultures being ruled by one government...

Mind you if being lead by an unelected  drunk who cant sort a  pair of shoes out is your kind of democracy then you are welcome to it....
As we were warned by the above guys in the 70's and didnt listen maybe the youngsters whose 'lives we have ruined" may see it differently in the future..
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on November 28, 2018, 04:54:54 PM
You couldn't make this stuff up  :o
Project Fear has been rebranded Project Vote, and they are re-running the same lies we had in the referendum campaign.
Treasury forecasts, a report from Mark Carney later today, and that will no doubt be followed by the CBI, the IMF, Uncle Tom Cobley and anyone else they can get to weigh in with some anti-Brexit propaganda.

We had the vote in 2016.  We were told of the possible economic problems of No Deal over and over again in fine detail, but 17.4 million people gave the government an overwhelming mandate to take us out.
On my ballot paper it was either leave or remain, there was no mention of leaving, but only if we get 'the best possible deal for the British people'. That was spun into the political rhetoric as soon as May got into No 10 and this whole process of conning the British public out of what they'd voted for began.
She's lied through her teeth for 2+years and now she is going against an unopposed vote in the House of commons by not publishing the final and full legal advice on her deal given by the Attorney General.
Spending taxpayer's money on overturning a democratic process, unbelievable the sooner she's kicked out the better  :police:

If she's kicked out, there's a good chance you won't get any Brexit at all as no-one will support a "no deal" exit. The EU may be willing to make a few more minor concessions to another leader, but nothing significant - to all intents and purposes this is as good as it gets given the reality of the situation. I honestly don't know what you were expecting to happen once the fantasies and delusions of ardent Brexiteers crashed into how the real world works.

Way back on this thread, early in 2016,  I said that it was effectively an In/In referendum as it would be voted down in the House of Commons.  Since then I've watched the whole elaborate charade being played out.  Brexit means Brexit, no deal is better than a bad deal, etc, but now, after she's purposely run the clock down, we find that the deal on offer is far worse than staying in as it leaves us in a state of permanent vassalage to the EU.
Hopefully it will be voted down by a massive majority and May will walk. 
Trouble is there's so many spineless career politicians being worked on at the moment, it could well be only a small majority.  If this is the case May will stay on and we will get another referendum IMO. We will be asked to vote for either May's deal, or to remain, and by this time the reality of how bad May's deal really is will have sunk in.

Best case scenario is if my 2016 prediction is proven to be wrong.  May goes, we get a PM who actually wants to leave, and we leave on 29th March under a managed no deal arrangement while negotiations continue along the lines of a Canada style deal.  The talk of 'the negotiations being over, take it or leave it' is just patronising crap from May, Robbins, and their EU buddies.
Negotiations are only over until they start negotiating again, everything is agreed until nothing is agreed, and by 12th December nothing will be agreed.  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Adam on November 28, 2018, 07:42:56 PM
I love the idea that a ‘true believer’ PM could negotiate a better deal with the biggest trade bloc in the world. They’re not even capable of negotiating the writing and delivery of 48 letters by their fellow headcases.  ;D
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on November 28, 2018, 08:02:47 PM
Mark Carney makes his pitch:-

annual interest rates up to 6.6%,
the pound dropping 25%,
official borrowing costs up to 5.5%,
"Our job is not to hope for the best but prepare for the worst"

He seems to have cranked his previous predictions up a bit now it's called Project Vote  :o
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on November 28, 2018, 08:39:31 PM
Mark Carney makes his pitch:-

annual interest rates up to 6.6%,
the pound dropping 25%,
official borrowing costs up to 5.5%,
"Our job is not to hope for the best but prepare for the worst"

He seems to have cranked his previous predictions up a bit now it's called Project Vote  :o

 Project Guesswork I think Ed, like all projections made on the subject there no historic evidence to base the outcome on .  If any of us were clever enough to forsee the true merits of in v out instead of revealing it on a football forum we would be investing to build a futune .

I would give Mark the benifit of the doubt with the 6.6% interest rate , impliment it tomorrow Mark .



Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on November 29, 2018, 09:24:42 AM
I would love to be a fly on the wall in the chambers of Westminster.  Peerages being offered, bribes and corruption, all to toe the party line.  I have lost all faith in our political system.

We are treated like mushrooms ( kept in the dark and fed on Sh*t ) >:( >:(
[/quot

I suspect a fly on the wall overheard the followng conversation last night .....

Mrs May ,  I hear you fancy my job Andrea ?
Mrs Leadsom  ,   Yes I confess I would love to have a bash at it .
Mrs May ,   Back my Brexit deal and the job is yours in few  months time.
Mrs Leadsom .  Deal done PM ,  thank you .

Mrs May ,   Don't forget to hand me a £300 a day thank you bonus  for the Lords please Andrea .


Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 29, 2018, 03:26:06 PM
We are DOOMED :o :o  The IMF has joined the debate.  House prices will crash, interest rates will go through the roof and the pound will plummet.  Vote leave and the fires of hell will envelope the whole country.  The Stay campaign are trying to scare the public into voting in their favour.  The trouble is some of the don't knows will vote stay just because of the fear factor.

Nothing changes, my post from May 2016. 
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Champs next year on November 29, 2018, 08:12:19 PM
We are DOOMED :o :o  The IMF has joined the debate.  House prices will crash, interest rates will go through the roof and the pound will plummet.  Vote leave and the fires of hell will envelope the whole country.  The Stay campaign are trying to scare the public into voting in their favour.  The trouble is some of the don't knows will vote stay just because of the fear factor.

Nothing changes, my post from May 2016.

You weren't wrong!!

Cameron must lie awake wondering why on earth he threw a prime ministership & an entire career away by giving the British public a Referendum. Let's be brutally honest here did any of us fully understand the implications of a Leave Vote????

The Farage, Boris & Gove fantasy of an idealistic crusade that would halt immigration, secure borders & give us our legal integrity back was absolute codswallop the sold millions upon millions of voters right down the proverbial swanny!!

We would immediately save £350 million & it would all go to the NHS & not Brussels....please spare us the embarrassment. In fact a no Deal is going to cost us 35 billion over the next 5 yrs....Good eh?? We should Never had got to vote on it. We were Turkeys voting for Christmas.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on November 29, 2018, 08:54:53 PM

Anyone going to Matts gigs at Skeggy on Friday or Boston on Saturday ? .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on November 30, 2018, 08:27:56 AM

Anyone going to Matts gigs at Skeggy on Friday or Boston on Saturday ? .

Remember, if you go along to this, don't just tell Warman that May's deal is crap. That's pointless sniping. You need to tell him WHY it's crap, and also what better deal YOU would have negotiated had you got the chance. Otherwise you're just moaning, talking the country down and betraying the will of the people.
 
Good luck!
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 30, 2018, 08:43:01 AM
Did anyone see the programme about Oxford street last night?

I saw a new insight into British policing.  It seemed their objective was a short term fix.

Three shop lifters/pick pockets were arrested.  Two were released immediately and the other released later in the day.

Next day the three were arrested again, this time one did get a 11 week suspended sentence.

The point I am making is, the officer in charge classed it as a result because they got them off the street for the day.

One of the people robbed was an 80 year old woman.  Surely a tougher  stance is needed to deter these scum.  Oh sorry it would infringe on their Human rights.  May's wonder deal involves us still being tied to the European court of Justice.

Tell that to the poor 80 year old woman >:(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on November 30, 2018, 09:58:43 AM
The policing you've described above has absolutely nothing to do with the EU whatsoever.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on November 30, 2018, 10:35:50 AM

Anyone going to Matts gigs at Skeggy on Friday or Boston on Saturday ? .

Remember, if you go along to this, don't just tell Warman that May's deal is crap. That's pointless sniping. You need to tell him WHY it's crap, and also what better deal YOU would have negotiated had you got the chance. Otherwise you're just moaning, talking the country down and betraying the will of the people.
 
Good luck!
 
I got to get in to the meeting first ,  I'm not sure if I am still on a red card.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on November 30, 2018, 11:07:34 AM

Anyone going to Matts gigs at Skeggy on Friday or Boston on Saturday ? .

Remember, if you go along to this, don't just tell Warman that May's deal is crap. That's pointless sniping. You need to tell him WHY it's crap, and also what better deal YOU would have negotiated had you got the chance. Otherwise you're just moaning, talking the country down and betraying the will of the people.
 
Good luck!
 
I got to get in to the meeting first ,  I'm not sure if I am still on a red card.

You got banned?! Hahaha. What happened? C'mon, fess up....
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on November 30, 2018, 11:55:48 AM
The policing you've described above has absolutely nothing to do with the EU whatsoever.

If you saw the programme Pete, you would see it had everything to do with the EU.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on November 30, 2018, 12:22:14 PM

Anyone going to Matts gigs at Skeggy on Friday or Boston on Saturday ? .

He knows my views already so I'll let others have their say.

WTO rules in a managed, completely non-chaotic, non-cliff edge, no-deal situation while we renegotiate to remove the back-stop, and  arrive at a Canada-style arrangement.

We were already offered a Canada+ deal which was what Davies was working on. Olly Robbins held back details of the existing technology so the idea was binned but could easily be put back on the table.
Robbins has a lot to answer for.  He also removed a unilateral back-stop opt out clause from the latest attempt at a deal.  He thought it would overcomplicate the negotiations... anything for an easy life for Mr Robbins  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: brummie exile 1960 on November 30, 2018, 08:22:45 PM
We are DOOMED :o :o  The IMF has joined the debate.  House prices will crash, interest rates will go through the roof and the pound will plummet.  Vote leave and the fires of hell will envelope the whole country.  The Stay campaign are trying to scare the public into voting in their favour.  The trouble is some of the don't knows will vote stay just because of the fear factor.

Nothing changes, my post from May 2016.

You weren't wrong!!

Cameron must lie awake wondering why on earth he threw a prime ministership & an entire career away by giving the British public a Referendum. Let's be brutally honest here did any of us fully understand the implications of a Leave Vote????

The Farage, Boris & Gove fantasy of an idealistic crusade that would halt immigration, secure borders & give us our legal integrity back was absolute codswallop the sold millions upon millions of voters right down the proverbial swanny!!

We would immediately save £350 million & it would all go to the NHS & not Brussels....please spare us the embarrassment. In fact a no Deal is going to cost us 35 billion over the next 5 yrs....Good eh?? We should Never had got to vote on it. We were Turkeys voting for Christmas.

My first post on this subject. I am not a turkey. I despise politicians. I would offer solutions that would be described as draconian. One look at May is to know a chancer when you see one. One look at Johnson is to behold an over-educated idiot. One look at Corbyn is to disbelieve the existence of present reality.
b
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on November 30, 2018, 09:05:42 PM
One look and listen at our Matty and you realise we have a man on a mission ,  a mission to please his masters   .   
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on November 30, 2018, 10:11:41 PM
Matt appears to be satisfied with his Skeggy gig tonight .

My mole from Skeggy informs me the attendance was exactly 10 (ten) + Matty and one of his underlings .

Looking at his twitter photo taken tonight the good news is there will plenty of tea and coffee available at Boston tomorrow if I am lucky enough to get admitted . :)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on December 01, 2018, 10:11:31 AM
Sam Gyimah's resignation statement would make interesting breakfast reading for our MP.
The 10th resignation, but the reasons given for this one are an indication of our future treatment if we sign away our sovereignty at the behest of the Maybot and her band of servile underlings/MPs.

The UK paid £1.2 billion towards the development of the Galileo project (replacement for the American GPS system).
According to Sam Gyimah, the now ex-Minister for Science and Technology, the ink was barely dry on the EU's signing off on May's deal when they told us that we would not be able to access the secure network which is necessary for our armed forces.
He said that this was a perfect example of how they will hammer us at every opportunity, and of course they are not going to refund the £1.2 billion.

Enough to make Matty choke on his porridge.  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on December 01, 2018, 10:43:40 AM
Ed, it was obvious that this is the treatment we will receive.  A dangerous game is being played.  I am afraid the electorate are falling for it hook line and sinker.

We will have a new referendum, I am sure of this.

1, Accept the Chequers deal

2, No deal

3, No Brexit

This will split the voters who voted for leave.  Project fear is well and truly in gear.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on December 01, 2018, 06:36:51 PM
I got admitted to Matts gig this afternoon , plenty of tea and biscuits and bullshit .
Hand it to Matt today he got his basic plan right ,  a large hall with  bad acoustics and an audience top heavy with old farts on the verge of deafness , and no PA system .  When a respected member of the audience spoke loud enough for people to hear Matt responded by asking him not to shout .


I think Matt had an answer for all the questions , fortunately there was always someone in the audience to explain to him what a load of nonsense he was talking .

I expressed to several present my dismay of having voted tory for about 60 years then at a vital time in our history we are lumbered with a LAME DUCK MP.   I suspect he is now feeling the vibes of dissatisfaction and probably senses there are 2/3 locals who fancy stepping in his shoes.

From personal experience I know Matt is not receptive to constituents who contact him and express concerns and needs of his more vulnerable constituents . But nonetheless it was  a shock when a constituent who has received national acclaim for outstanding work revealed to me some of her mail to Warman is not responded to .












Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on December 01, 2018, 07:20:52 PM
Did you go in disguise GHM?  I take it he will back 76% of his constituents. 
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on December 01, 2018, 09:05:39 PM
Did you go in disguise GHM?  I take it he will back 76% of his constituents.

No I did't go in full disguise Dip ,  I had a green fleese jacket and jumper given me last christmas so I went in those and headed straight  to the his underling , requested a free tea and biscuit and explained I was an observer from the Green Party and had no problem .

One gentleman noted that Matt had started out as a remainer , changed to out , was he likely to change his mind again ?       No response .


Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on December 04, 2018, 08:27:51 AM
What has the Government got to hide?  I totally agree that Parliament must vote on any outcome concerning the Brexit withdrawal agreement.  But to have a proper debate and vote they must know all the facts.  The Attorney General must release the full legal agreement, not a 50+ page summary.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on December 04, 2018, 09:33:35 AM
What has the Government got to hide?  I totally agree that Parliament must vote on any outcome concerning the Brexit withdrawal agreement.  But to have a proper debate and vote they must know all the facts.  The Attorney General must release the full legal agreement, not a 50+ page summary.

Couldn't agree more. It's outrageous the Government is hiding this advice.

As for Warman, it appears to me that he's a classic career politician who is simply out to further his own career and parrot the party line because he'd love a cabinet position.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Burgh Boy on December 04, 2018, 03:46:56 PM
What has the Government got to hide?  I totally agree that Parliament must vote on any outcome concerning the Brexit withdrawal agreement.  But to have a proper debate and vote they must know all the facts.  The Attorney General must release the full legal agreement, not a 50+ page summary.

Couldn't agree more. It's outrageous the Government is hiding this advice.

As for Warman, it appears to me that he's a classic career politician who is simply out to further his own career and parrot the party line because he'd love a cabinet position.

Unless he "crosses the floor", in a few months time he will only be eligible for a role in a Shadow Cabinet! What a shambolic mess.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on December 04, 2018, 05:45:13 PM
What has the Government got to hide?  I totally agree that Parliament must vote on any outcome concerning the Brexit withdrawal agreement.  But to have a proper debate and vote they must know all the facts.  The Attorney General must release the full legal agreement, not a 50+ page summary.

Couldn't agree more. It's outrageous the Government is hiding this advice.

As for Warman, it appears to me that he's a classic career politician who is simply out to further his own career and parrot the party line because he'd love a cabinet position.

Unless he "crosses the floor", in a few months time he will only be eligible for a role in a Shadow Cabinet! What a shambolic mess.

Utterly hilarious that this idiotic Tory Government is going to somehow let Corbyn become PM. He's crap and won't last, but it just sums up how awful this lot are. The worst government in living memory.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on December 04, 2018, 06:25:30 PM
Bloody hell Pete, we've agreed on two things  ;D
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on December 05, 2018, 08:02:25 AM
A new record was set yesterday.  The Government was defeated three times in one session.  Taxi for May?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on December 05, 2018, 09:51:02 AM
A further nail in the coffin of no-deal. Interesting to see Tories turning on the extreme Brexiteers in the Commons yesterday - I think the penny has finally dropped.

So it's either May's deal (which is crap) or no Brexit at all (although the path to the latter will likely involve a General Election and/or a second referendum). That's the choice.

Again: not really worth it was it?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on December 05, 2018, 05:23:00 PM
Talking to a shrewd old business man ( true blue ) before the vote.  He told me that even if the brexit vote wins, we will still be in the EU.  He said we will go back renegotiate and a new deal put to the people. >:(

My reply from two years ago.  Looking more and more likely.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on December 05, 2018, 07:33:55 PM
Legally speaking, we will still be leaving in March next year with or without May's disastrous deal.
It will be interesting to see the reaction when the legislation is passed to stop the no deal option, and the penny finally drops with the 17.4 million people who voted to leave, that the whole thing was just a massive piss take  :o
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on December 06, 2018, 10:06:59 AM
Legally speaking, we will still be leaving in March next year with or without May's disastrous deal.
It will be interesting to see the reaction when the legislation is passed to stop the no deal option, and the penny finally drops with the 17.4 million people who voted to leave, that the whole thing was just a massive piss take  :o

I doubt there's time to get that kind of legislation passed before the end of March, so A50 will simply have to be extended while we sort out what we do when May's deal is rejected next week.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on December 07, 2018, 01:30:56 PM
The CEO of Weatherspoons backs Brexit saying with it will come cheaper drink .

Mrs May will reveal this Tuesday morning and walk away with a big majority !  :)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: oxo on December 07, 2018, 04:05:23 PM
The CEO of Weatherspoons backs Brexit saying with it will come cheaper drink .

Mrs May will reveal this Tuesday morning and walk away with a big majority !  :)


Well if there is going to be a party at the brewery let's hope it is not organised by any of the tossers in parliament or it will never happen.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on December 07, 2018, 07:53:55 PM
There's no negatives with cheaper ale  :laugh: but May's deal is going down, so who knows how this will end.
The Brexit Betrayal Rally on Sunday is probably just the start :'(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on December 08, 2018, 08:46:50 AM
Another bad Saturday for Minority Matt ,  Friday last week he had his "open" meeting at Skeggy to discuss EU,  not many minutes after closure on his twitter he declared it a good meeting ,  did  10 in attendance   think the same ?

Last Saturday he continued his campaign at Boston High School with an attendance of about 40+ ,  7 days on and he has yet to exclaim his satisfaction or any comments on the meeting on his twitter !


And now Amber Rudd coming up with this Norway Plus Model !  what does poor Matt do now ?

I think it's fair to say this Model would be unacceptable to the 75% Brexit voters in his constituency .


Worrying times for Matt ,  does he follow to his trusted route and stick as PMs trusted poodle and reject
this model ?   , along the way upsetting the majority of his constituents .  Being a versatile MP (non-commitial ) he will I suspect lay low and and avoid comment .

Next Saturday ?   rule nothing out .  Possibly the PM will be gone , Amber Rudd will be favourite to replace
her and Matt will have performed yet another somersalt by backing this new  "Model ".
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on December 08, 2018, 09:15:44 AM
They are already taking measures to ensure a seamless transition from Remainer Prime Minister May to Remainer Prime Minister Rudd, so that we remain in the Single Market, etc and continue with freedom of movement. So in other words Brexit in name only.
Rudd is already saying that the immigration question is no longer relevant due to reduced levels, in fact she dismisses it completely.  :police:

This is the MP that took the rap over the then Home Secretary Theresa May's disastrous Windrush/hostile environment policy that resulted in the illegal deportation of people who had legitimate rights to reside here.

A few months out of office and she's reinstated to the cabinet and now a shoe-in for the top job.

This has to be stopped as she is just another Europhile who has no interest in ensuring a proper Brexit. 

GHM, you are spot on about Matt Warman.  I'm convinced he will be supporting Norwegian Rudd as soon as this all emerges, possibly as early as next Wednesday.  :police: :police:

Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on December 08, 2018, 12:55:40 PM
Going on Warman's  twitter on a regular basis in recent months it's surprised me how poor his PR is considering he is a former DT journalist .  Roughly a fortnight ago I was amazed that he used a local foodbank for  a photoshoot on twitter , although yesterday it had disappeared .   I assumed it was just another appalling misjudgement on Matt's part .

Today a family member has sent me a copy of todays Mirror ,  as readers of this paper will have seen by now the foodbank photoshoot was an instruction sent to MPs from the top office , realising what an own goal it was they instructed all MPs to remove it. 

Concerning that the top brass make an appalling error which I condemned a lame duck MP of making .


Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on December 10, 2018, 10:49:04 AM
The Brexit vote pulled  ???  :o
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on December 10, 2018, 11:40:51 AM
The Brexit vote pulled  ???  :o

Not even this corrupt lot would do that Ed.  But take us out in name only, now they will be up for that >:(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on December 10, 2018, 12:07:28 PM
Yes, she's been working towards that since the day she said ' Brexit means Brexit'  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on December 10, 2018, 04:52:06 PM
The Commons vote has been postponed ( surprise surprise )  The Eu have said that is the only deal on the table. 
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on December 10, 2018, 05:47:34 PM
A constitutional crisis  :o. with Ian Duncan Smith saying this country could soon be burning like France  :'(  and the Maybot reopening negotiations with the EU on the backstop part of the withdrawal agreement. 
Both parties said last week that negotiations had finished  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on December 11, 2018, 09:05:45 AM
A constitutional crisis  :o. with Ian Duncan Smith saying this country could soon be burning like France  :'(  and the Maybot reopening negotiations with the EU on the backstop part of the withdrawal agreement. 
Both parties said last week that negotiations had finished  :police:

There's nothing the EU will give her that will placate the Brexiteers - I can't see any outcome from this that ends with her remaining as PM. We are at complete deadlock now.

In many ways, I think the best course of action now is to have a pro-Brexit PM take over. They won't manage to do any better at extracting concessions from the EU than May, but at least we can rid ourselves of the absurd notion that a pro-Brexit leader would have done a better job before this ridiculous situation is sent back to the people via a General Election (or second referendum).
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on December 11, 2018, 11:32:12 AM
Weatherspoon's boss touring his Lincolnshire pubs today is still declaring he backs Brexit .
Surely we should listen to a man who can organise a good piss up as opposed to 600+ MP,s who wouldn't be capable of running his business .

Anyone in Weatherspoon's in Boston today hoping to see the boss come over and have a word with me , 

I'm the guy leaning  up the bar with a empty pint glass.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on December 11, 2018, 06:11:54 PM
Peoples Vote???
Er what was the referendum?
My voting slip only had two options in and out..


Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on December 11, 2018, 11:40:47 PM
47 letters in to the 1922 committee plus a memo from Matt Warman, allegedly  ;) :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on December 12, 2018, 07:51:06 AM
Peoples Vote???
Er what was the referendum?
My voting slip only had two options in and out..

Yes, and it is for precisely that reason that there's a decent chance that this will end up back with a second referendum. Everyone has a different idea of what "out" actually means. I wasn't sure another vote was a good idea, but if Parliament can't sort out the impasse then it's only right this goes back to the people to give politicians a popular mandate going forward - i.e., do we REALLY want to crash out with a no-deal? There's no mandate for it in Parliament, so another vote is the only way this will get through. So really, if that's what you want, you should actually be looking forward to the vote, not complaining about it. The ONLY reason you're worried about it is because you think the "will of the people" will suddenly change to stick with what we have based on the available choices of "out". Democracy eh?
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on December 12, 2018, 12:17:47 PM
47 letters in to the 1922 committee plus a memo from Matt Warman, allegedly  ;) :police:

The Tory party already had a vote to make a decision regarding their leader. Why do you want to undermine the first vote with a second one?  8)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on December 12, 2018, 12:19:27 PM
The mandate was given by the 2016 vote, Cameron repeatedly stated that we would leave the whole thing, no mention of leaving but only with 'the best possible deal for the British people'.
May gave away our bargaining power, conceded on everything to arrive at a deal so bad that hardly anybody wants it.  It was no accident, she needs to go.

We need to either extend A50 for 6 months, or go out under WTO in a managed no deal arrangement while the Canada + deal that the EU offered us in March this year is ratified. 
:police:
No need for another referendum, the will of the people was made clear in the first one.   8)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on December 12, 2018, 12:22:26 PM
47 letters in to the 1922 committee plus a memo from Matt Warman, allegedly  ;) :police:

The Tory party already had a vote to make a decision regarding their leader. Why do you want to undermine the first vote with a second one?  8)

Nothing to do with what I want. At least 15% of Tory MPs have no confidence in the PM, and they will  vote on her future this evening  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on December 12, 2018, 03:39:23 PM
Oh right, so it's fine for the Tories to have a change of heart, but you'd not want the same opportunity extended to the public so they can decide between no deal, May's deal or remaining then, now we know what the options actually are? If crashing out on WTO terms really is "the will of the people", surely you'd welcome it? Someone's worried....  ;D

Also, you've again misunderstood how the whole process works. May's deal is the terms of our departure, NOT the actual trade deal with the EU (that's the Canada + thing you refer to). The trade deal will take years to work through after our departure. I don't know how many more times I have to say this.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Champs next year on December 12, 2018, 06:42:46 PM
Look all you regular posters on in or out you all waffle on worse than the politicians it's soo boring!!

Cameron lived by the sword & died by it....end of.

It has to be a Brexiteer to get us out not a remoaner....end of
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on December 12, 2018, 06:51:25 PM
As Cameron said, the referendum is a once in a lifetime choice. If you vote to leave we will leave the Single Market, customs union, and ECJ (or words to that effect) and no mention of with or without a deal.  :police:

Also no mention of:  OK if you vote to leave and we then spend the next two and a half years talking about 'crashing out over the cliff edge and into the no deal abyss' on all the mainstream media outlets in order to prevent that even being thought about as an option. And while all that's going on work secretly on giving away our bargaining power and coming up with the worst possible deal, and running the clock down in order to force a situation where we can ask you if you've changed your mind yet... no I really don't remember him saying that.  :police:

On the other hand every member of the Government knows the rules regarding votes of no confidence in the PM and the 1922 committee, so your comparison is incorrect  :police:

As I've said before, I always thought that Parliament would vote down a leave vote in the referendum, it wasn't a binary choice at all, just an elaborate charade.  The public have been conned  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on December 12, 2018, 06:53:32 PM
Look all you regular posters on in or out you all waffle on worse than the politicians it's soo boring!!

Cameron lived by the sword & died by it....end of.

It has to be a Brexiteer to get us out not a remoaner....end of

You're quite right Chubby  :o. I'm going out for a couple of cold ones!  ;D
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on December 13, 2018, 08:26:03 AM
Matty toes the party line and votes for May in her vote of confidence.

Once again the Tories prove they are more interested in self preservation than good of the Country.

You can imagine the conversation, May, " Back me tonight and back my Brexit plan and I will resign before the next general election.  Giving us a better chance of winning."
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on December 13, 2018, 09:45:44 AM
Look all you regular posters on in or out you all waffle on worse than the politicians it's soo boring!!

Cameron lived by the sword & died by it....end of.

It has to be a Brexiteer to get us out not a remoaner....end of

You are right Champs .   
Then again this is a football forum ,  and what happens on a football forum ?
Well most of us have never managed or played the game for a living but we come on here and tell the chairman/manager/players how to go about their business .

How many of us on this thread have actually negotiated international £multi billion deals ?


Only politicians would be stupid enough to insist you lay your key cards on the table for the party you are negotiating with to see .
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on December 14, 2018, 01:16:54 PM
Look all you regular posters on in or out you all waffle on worse than the politicians it's soo boring!!

Cameron lived by the sword & died by it....end of.

It has to be a Brexiteer to get us out not a remoaner....end of

You are right Champs .   
Then again this is a football forum ,  and what happens on a football forum ?
Well most of us have never managed or played the game for a living but we come on here and tell the chairman/manager/players how to go about their business .

How many of us on this thread have actually negotiated international £multi billion deals ?


Only politicians would be stupid enough to insist you lay your key cards on the table for the party you are negotiating with to see .

What we have witnessed over the past two years, has been a choreographed pantomime played out by two lead actors.

1, A remain dominated UK government

2, The EU

They have colluded to create this fiasco, in order to brainwash people into believing it's too difficult to leave.  It's propagana and lies.

If The UK leaves totally, the EU regime will fail.

The very powerful vested interests are fighting with everything they have.

The public are being hoodwinked and we can do nothing about it.

Everything has already been decided, still more smoke and mirrors to come.

What a waste of time.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on December 15, 2018, 08:46:11 AM

Also, you've again misunderstood how the whole process works. May's deal is the terms of our departure, NOT the actual trade deal with the EU (that's the Canada + thing you refer to). The trade deal will take years to work through after our departure. I don't know how many more times I have to say this.

No misunderstanding there.  If we exit under WTO rules we don't need a withdrawal agreement, we just GTFO as I said in my first post on this thread in early 2016.
We will glide down to a gentle landing,  trading on WTO terms, and will manage whatever disruption occurs by using our £39 billion for the benefit of the UK public.  There should be enough to build a few hospitals, and even buy a couple more of those red buses  :police:
The EU will be begging us for a trade deal when the German car manufacturers start using their financial leverage.

Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on December 15, 2018, 08:53:12 AM
Look all you regular posters on in or out you all waffle on worse than the politicians it's soo boring!!

Cameron lived by the sword & died by it....end of.

It has to be a Brexiteer to get us out not a remoaner....end of

You are right Champs .   
Then again this is a football forum ,  and what happens on a football forum ?
Well most of us have never managed or played the game for a living but we come on here and tell the chairman/manager/players how to go about their business .

How many of us on this thread have actually negotiated international £multi billion deals ?


Only politicians would be stupid enough to insist you lay your key cards on the table for the party you are negotiating with to see .

What we have witnessed over the past two years, has been a choreographed pantomime played out by two lead actors.

1, A remain dominated UK government

2, The EU

They have colluded to create this fiasco, in order to brainwash people into believing it's too difficult to leave.  It's propagana and lies.

If The UK leaves totally, the EU regime will fail.

The very powerful vested interests are fighting with everything they have.

The public are being hoodwinked and we can do nothing about it.

Everything has already been decided, still more smoke and mirrors to come.

What a waste of time.

I couldn't agree more Dipodah, excellent summing up of possibly one of the biggest scams ever played out in history. There's several contenders, but this one's right up there :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on December 15, 2018, 09:10:46 AM
What worries me now Ed is another referendum looks on the cards. 

: STAY IN THE EU

:VOTE FOR MAYS' CRAP AND VERY DAMAGING EXIT PLAN

Two options, neither of which we voted for >:( >:(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ernie100 on December 15, 2018, 11:16:35 AM
What worries me now Ed is another referendum looks on the cards. 

: STAY IN THE EU

:VOTE FOR MAYS' CRAP AND VERY DAMAGING EXIT PLAN

Two options, neither of which we voted for >:( >:(

IF they are the options given then I would scrub out the lower one and substitute "Leave", I know this would make my vote null and void, but, if every voter did the
same then the powers that be would be in a quandary.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on December 17, 2018, 10:35:18 AM
What worries me now Ed is another referendum looks on the cards. 

: STAY IN THE EU

:VOTE FOR MAYS' CRAP AND VERY DAMAGING EXIT PLAN

Two options, neither of which we voted for >:( >:(

Remain should never appear on the ballot paper as that option was discarded in the 2016 People's Vote, with a massive turn out of the electorate.
If this happens then it will be clear that the Electoral Commission has been paid off by big businesses /the EU,/Soros/ Branson or any combination of these or others, the list is long.  This fix will have been organised by establishment figures such as Blair, Major, and assorted Remainers,  and such an event will signal the end of Democracy in the UK  :police:
What happens after that will be interesting, if you overturn democracy what takes it's place?  :police:

Theresa May is now being advised by Cameron  :o
The whole country is being trolled!  :o
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on December 17, 2018, 11:03:00 AM
If "Remain" is on the ballot next time, and a majority of people vote for it, then "the will of the people" is that we don't do Brexit after all. So you can hardly complain the will of the people has somehow been subverted.

You're just a bit worried because all the Brexit options are very obviously crap and there's a decent chance that Brexit won't happen if people get to pick between the crap deals on offer and just staying put.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on December 17, 2018, 11:14:44 AM
The EU is an exclusive club.  It reminds me of another exclusive club I know.  The Mafia.  Both have the same exit options, namely a body bag >:(
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on December 17, 2018, 11:37:32 AM
Pete..
you are an educated man and i respect your opinion
but do you feel the EU at present is a good thing?
if we were not in it would you think it would be  a good idea to join?
is it a worry that some of its member states are reported as being bankrupt or very close to it?
surely we cant just print money?
should the UK be one of those putting more in than it gets out? (i guess that can be explained away by some advanced economics)
Do you feel that the initial premise of a free trade area has been replaced by something far bigger, far more unwieldy?
is the way Brussels is making things awkward for us to leave is to show others (Italy and Greece spring to mind) on just how difficult they will make it for anyone wanting out?
i voted out as you may have guessed, in some ways i hope there is a second referendum and the vote is much wider one way or the other. i hate this division.
Maybe those who didn't vote may just come out .. lets just hope its not raining :)
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on December 17, 2018, 02:59:40 PM
If "Remain" is on the ballot next time, and a majority of people vote for it, then "the will of the people" is that we don't do Brexit after all. So you can hardly complain the will of the people has somehow been subverted.

You're just a bit worried because all the Brexit options are very obviously crap and there's a decent chance that Brexit won't happen if people get to pick between the crap deals on offer and just staying put.

Several countries have had a second referendum concerning the EU.  From memory I think the first result was overturned bar one.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on December 18, 2018, 08:28:36 AM
Pete..
you are an educated man and i respect your opinion
but do you feel the EU at present is a good thing?
if we were not in it would you think it would be  a good idea to join?
is it a worry that some of its member states are reported as being bankrupt or very close to it?
surely we cant just print money?
should the UK be one of those putting more in than it gets out? (i guess that can be explained away by some advanced economics)
Do you feel that the initial premise of a free trade area has been replaced by something far bigger, far more unwieldy?
is the way Brussels is making things awkward for us to leave is to show others (Italy and Greece spring to mind) on just how difficult they will make it for anyone wanting out?
i voted out as you may have guessed, in some ways i hope there is a second referendum and the vote is much wider one way or the other. i hate this division.
Maybe those who didn't vote may just come out .. lets just hope its not raining :)

I think you have some valid points, especially about the EU's "project" extending far beyond its original remit into more of a political bloc. I have never pretended the EU is perfect. On the contrary, like all blocs of its size, it is beset by flaws, dodgy characters, bungling incompetence as well as being nearly incomprehensibly complicated.

That said.... the economic benefits we derive of pooling resources and being in a massive free market trading bloc cannot be underestimated. Nor can the cultural benefits - of thinking of Europeans as our friends and colleagues, rather than the classic Brexiteer world view of "the Spanish" (and the rest) being pesky upstart rivals we need to beat.

To chuck all that away for no tangible benefit still makes no sense to me, even now.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on December 18, 2018, 06:52:32 PM
If "Remain" is on the ballot next time, and a majority of people vote for it, then "the will of the people" is that we don't do Brexit after all. So you can hardly complain the will of the people has somehow been subverted.


Assuming democracy has been subverted by the establishment to the extent that there's another referendum and 'Remain' appears on the voting slip, it will make a mockery of everything we were told by Cameron, ie ' Once in a lifetime decision, your decision, will of the people, we WILL leave the EU, etc, etc'

If, in this purely hypothetical scenario, Leave came out on top again I'm sure we can expect another referendum to once again 'see if the will of the people has changed' before the end of the transition period.
 
If Remain was the favoured option in this hypothetical 2nd vote situation, would we then have another vote to check how the will of the people was shaping up a couple of years after we'd cancelled A50 and stayed in the EU?  ???
Maybe its worth checking on the will of the people every two years ad infinitum from now on just in case  :o

Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Ed Kandii on December 18, 2018, 07:30:31 PM


That said.... the economic benefits we derive of pooling resources and being in a massive free market trading bloc cannot be underestimated. Nor can the cultural benefits - of thinking of Europeans as our friends and colleagues, rather than the classic Brexiteer world view of "the Spanish" (and the rest) being pesky upstart rivals we need to beat.

To chuck all that away for no tangible benefit still makes no sense to me, even now.

Maybe the significant opportunity we would have through the control of tariff schedules and regulatory autonomy has just passed you by?  ???

With no major multilateral trade deal concluded for 23 years the global trading system is in crisis. 
A major G7 nation adopting an independent trading policy for the first time in over 40 years is a huge global event that has never happened before and is unlikely to ever happen again.

The current trajectory of the global regulatory system would favour us as it is in a more anti-competitive and prescriptive direction.
We can benefit massively from having an independent trade policy as well as a comprehensive EU trading policy.

We have already rejected one comprehensive FTA with regulatory cooperation, customs facilitations, and Irish border facilitations, so a decent EU trade deal of some description will happen if/when we leave.  :police:
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on December 19, 2018, 12:40:31 PM
Regulatory autonomy doesn't really exist in practice though does it? The very nature of trade deals mean you are agreeing between you to align some regulations to facilitate the free(er) movement of goods, services (and sometimes people). And it's not like regulations were imposed upon us. We were part of the entity that created them. The simple fact of the matter is that in the real world, we'll simply adopt de facto regulatory alignment with our biggest trading partner (the EU) without having any say in the creation of those regulations. You might argue "ah but now we can do trade with Japan on whatever terms we like", but since they've got a trade deal with the EU and will also in many cases be meeting EU standards, our future deal with them might as well be broadly in line with what the EU and Japan have agreed, since divergence on either side simply wouldn't make any economic sense.

So again: really, what's the point?

But then, this has never really been about trade. Not for the architects of Brexit anyway. There are much darker forces at work here.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: howmanynames2pick on December 19, 2018, 02:17:58 PM
Darker forces Pete??
It was the far right who warned us at the last referendum not to join  .now its the far right (allegedly) who want us out... :)
Or maybe its the fear of globalization??
As i put in an earlier post if you look  at the former yogoslavia as a  microcosm of the EU where different creeds languages and cultures are put under one "heading"  it doesnt end up well.
The biggest fear the Brussels types have is who will follow uk.
The Common Market has disappeared  a long time ago and been replaced by the red tape ridden over bearing wasteful monster that the EU has become..
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Dipdodah on December 19, 2018, 11:13:20 PM
A friend told me that Matty thinks that if his constituents voted again we would vote to remain.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on December 20, 2018, 08:40:17 AM
A friend told me that Matty thinks that if his constituents voted again we would vote to remain.

Nah, Boston would still vote to leave, I don't even think the %s would even change that much.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: Pete B on December 20, 2018, 08:43:27 AM
Darker forces Pete??
It was the far right who warned us at the last referendum not to join  .now its the far right (allegedly) who want us out... :)
Or maybe its the fear of globalization??
As i put in an earlier post if you look  at the former yogoslavia as a  microcosm of the EU where different creeds languages and cultures are put under one "heading"  it doesnt end up well.
The biggest fear the Brussels types have is who will follow uk.
The Common Market has disappeared  a long time ago and been replaced by the red tape ridden over bearing wasteful monster that the EU has become..

It didn't end well precisely because nationalists arrived on the scene and began pitting neighbour vs neighbour. Which is exactly what's happening right now in the UK. Nationalists are utter vermin, and I do not use that word lightly. They sow discord, hatred and misery, and ultimately start wars.
Title: Re: O/T In or out
Post by: green hats mate on December 20, 2018, 11:03:12 AM
A friend told me that Matty thinks that if his constituents voted again we would vote to remain.

Possibly Matt did say that Dip , from some of the stuff Matt tells me I think he�