Your first piece of disinformation:-
In or out, the NHS is screwed so long as we have a Tory government. If you have any evidence to dispute that, go ahead and post it otherwise I will assume we all agree on that point.
The NHS is screwed if we remain in the EU, you can assume whatever you like, but once TTIP is in place the NHS will be sold off/privatised, the leaked Brussels papers make that quite clear.
If we vote out and a future UK government decides it wants to privatise the NHS, that government can be voted out by this country's electorate 8)
Your first piece of obfuscation:-
The timescale for these two eventualities is impossible to ascertain, but we know that in Germany for example, the millions of migrants that Merkel is intent on letting in will be given EU passports if they stay, and will therefore be able to move to any part of the EU that they choose.
The same will apply to the millions of Turkish citizens who Cameron is so keen to let in to the EU despite what he is now saying.
The first thing I simply have to do is take issue with your use of the term “migrant” with regard the people whom Germany has taken in. I assume you are talking about the 800,000 Syrians that ended up in Germany? They are Refugees. What we are seeing here is a massive fallout from the wars that have been raging in Syria and Iraq. If you wish to get into the why’s what’s and whatever’s that another discussion but in a nutshell, that entire region was completely destabilized by the U.S.’s (backed by Europe and particularly the UK) desire for regime change in several countries. You don’t have to look too far using Google to see the kind of devastation that they are fleeing and I think a bit of humanity wouldn’t go amiss.
So I think that’s the first issue we need to address which is to distinguish between economic migrant and refugees. We have economic migrants which are those coming from the likes of Eastern Europe to create a better life for themselves and refugees who are entering bordering nations on an unprecedented scale to escape the devastation in their own nations. I think Turkey as a nation is taking a heavy brunt from the latter and is looking to the west to help take some of the burden.
We can debate the rights and wrongs of all that, but again, that’s another more dedicated discussion.
You need to try to control those emotional thoughts that the word 'migrant' has triggered off in your mind. My usage of the word is entirely correct in the context of the logistics of people moving from one country to another.
Your response is typical of the sort of garbage the BBC has subjected us to on their televised debates; whenever the subject of the logistical problems surrounding a mass influx of humanity into a country whose benefits systems are already at full stretch comes up, the Remain side always throws up this smokescreen of emotional claptrap.
The human cost of it all is obviously desperately sad, but if we all stand around wringing our hands and emoting everywhere we just divert attention away from the point of the discussion, which is obviously your intent
The point is that if we don't take back control of our borders and control the numbers entering our country our services will soon be at breaking point.
Another fine piece of obfuscation:-
Nobody knows the exact figures, but we do know that millions of pounds are transferred to the EU every week - this fact has never been disputed, the debates always end up in petty squabbles over the exact amount, how much we get back as a rebate etc, but these things don't make much difference, the fact is that millions of pounds that now leave our country every week will stay in this country if we vote to leave.
The petty squabbles over exactly how much are of the order of about £200m a week, so not exactly insignificant. The main problem is though, that you have simplified the fee we are paying into a simple cash equation, i.e. we pay £xm per week for membership… and that it. It’s a bit more complicated than that. As I mentioned on a previous post, there are many unquantifiable benefits of being in the EU, the most obvious being access to the free market. That means anything any company in this country makes can be sold anywhere in the EU without paying any kind of tariffs or duties. Companies such as the Japanese car makers Nissan and Toyota build their cars in the UK, employing thousands, so that they can sell them throughout the EU without paying import tariffs. The UK is attractive to them because we are members of the EU and common market.
I could go on, but I think you will find that the common market gives our economy a large boost in terms of GDP (Gross Domestic Product) and also in terms of employment, tax receipts, etc. It has been pointed out by several economist that as little as a 0.7% drop in our GDP would result in us losing more than the cost of EU membership. We may go it alone and be successful, but it is a jump into the unknown. Therefore, it is s a risk economically and as yet, the Out campaign have failed to produce any kind of credible economic plan. It's all very well saying we'll negotiate, but for me, its too big a decision to be left down to these kind of back of a fag packet plans.
You've been watching too many TV debates, same old b*llocks every time
Nobody knows the exact figures, but we do know that millions of pounds are transferred to the EU every week - this fact has never been disputed, the debates always end up in petty squabbles over the exact amount, how much we get back as a rebate etc, but these things don't make much difference, the fact is that millions of pounds that now leave our country every week will stay in this country if we vote to leave.
If it makes it any easier to have something empirical to wrap your mind around, the ONS gives the estimated net UK contribution, after rebates etc as £70 billion over the next five years.
You can debate the figure until you fall over backwards foaming at the mouth, nobody knows what it is, but we do know that we will save a couple of quid by voting out.
And finally, a nicely blended mix of disinformation, obfuscation, and just plain old dislike for members of the Leave campaign :-
The other thing that we know for sure if we do leave the EU is that we will not have an unelected committee of faceless American and European corporate fat cats selling off our NHS.
How naïve, if we vote out that is precisely what we will end up with. Just look at the credentials of all of those involved in the Out campaign, even "man of the people" Nigel Farage is an ex banker. If we isolate ourselves from Europe, we will be forced into an even cosier alliance with the Americans. Check out the trade agreements they have already signed with Canada and Mexico and decide for yourself what kind of deal we will get on our own with BoJo at the helm.
Whatever any future alliance with the Americans would be, we would still be in control of the future of our NHS as we can vote down any proposals to privatise it
If we stay in, and TTIP is eventually ratified, there would be no hope of keeping it as Aneurin Bevan intended.
The leaked Brussels papers show that a TTIP committee would be appointed (not elected) and there would be no guarantee that the UK would even be represented. Assuming there was a UK representative and he or she argued for keeping the NHS, if he was successful, we would then be guilty of distorting the market and our government woud be open to a legal claim amounting to billions of pounds.
As far as the NHS goes, it is quite clear that if we stay in we will eventually lose it and have to pay for private healthcare;
whereas if we vote out we will always have the opportunity to vote to keep it